I am eligible for Staff Candidacy at Sou Fujimoto Architects, and I have a few questions for anyone who has been through staff candidacy or understands how it works.
My biggest question is - what are my chances of being hired? (I understand that it depends on my personal performance in the office and how many positions they have, but I'm generally looking to know whether they are actually serious about hiring. What is the percentage of candidates who are eventually hired full-time?)
Other questions -
does the one month no-pay balance out in the end?
do the 'extreme' work hours literally kill you, or does it seem manageable if you are willing to make architecture your life for a while?
was the experience 'worth it'?
Some things we DON'T need to talk about in this thread (start a new one if you have some strong opinions) - The practice of unpaid internships, the 'starchitect scam', or how I need to 'value myself.' In many ways, I consider this experience to be a form of 'grad school' that I don't have to pay for.
Thank you!
anonitect
Oct 4, 16 9:45 pm
But, we kinda need to talk about the practice of unpaid internships. By working for free, you devalue the work of everyone else coming out of school. Don't do it.
Non Sequitur
Oct 4, 16 9:58 pm
Never work or free, you're contributing to a big problem in the profession and I would never hire or want to work with someone who has no idea how to value time.
No starchitect is big enough to whore yourself. Enjoy your terrible professional decision.
batman
Oct 4, 16 11:35 pm
grow a pair of responsibility and tell sou fujimoto "FCK YOU!"
GSD!
Oct 5, 16 1:31 am
I think differently cuz I worked there.
Working for free is culture of Japan. However, it works only for japanese. There are 3 steps before being hired. Almost all of the people who have no problem with communicating can go further for first step. But the second one is more hard. I think it is their strategies. They just make u for them. That's all. It is fuckkkking extreme and expensive to stay in Japan in regard of rent fee and some kind of things.
If you have chances to work in your country, it is better. But if you want to work with people from diverse background and have fantasy of japan. Just go!
Non Sequitur
Oct 5, 16 5:54 am
It's a shitty culture then and anyone defending this deserves ridicule.
Dangermouse
Oct 5, 16 7:25 am
1) very, very few candidates get hired. You're in the unpaid intern pipeline. Your labor is literally worthless. It's a resume builder, like you said, not a path to a salary.
2) It's manageable if you make it your life.
3) most non Japanese regret unpaid internships in Japan. Especially when your classmates worked for OMA, HdM etc. and were compensated.
IMHO, you're an idiot if you work for free. It's a shit negotiating tactic; you've agreed to be made their bitch, then you want to be paid afterwards? Not happening. Stay out of that pipeline.
flatroof
Oct 5, 16 7:59 am
Especially when your classmates worked for OMA, HdM etc. and were compensated.
Envy them living it it up in expensive European cities on a mid-triple digit monthly stipend! Models and bottles galore!
archiwutm8
Oct 5, 16 8:17 am
flatroof - Tokyo is expensive...
Non Sequitur
Oct 5, 16 8:46 am
also, Europe has better beer.
LITS4FormZ
Oct 5, 16 9:02 am
The one thing that stuck with me from going to one of his lectures 3-4 years ago was...
"we build many, many models"
I remember thinking he must have an army of unpaid interns to put all these together...
no_form
Oct 5, 16 10:57 am
Usually when I get something free it's amusing or interesting for about two minutes.
Then I throw it away.
That's you as an intern.
sameolddoctor
Oct 9, 16 2:10 pm
It might make sense become his bitch, if your end goal is to get his recommendation for a graduate program and hence get a handsome scholarship. That's about the only advantage.
But if you don't have an ulterior motive of this sort, stay out of this bullshit pipeline.
sameolddoctor
Oct 9, 16 2:10 pm
It might make sense become his bitch, if your end goal is to get his recommendation for a graduate program and hence get a handsome scholarship. That's about the only advantage.
But if you don't have an ulterior motive of this sort, stay out of this bullshit pipeline.
3tk
Oct 11, 16 4:26 pm
- balance out? no. the free time is free, pay is not higher to make up for that time
- hours are what they are - I assume they go as late as the buses & trains run. if you can't handle the hours, starchitects are not for you.
- 'worth it'? that depends on what you want to do later. some of my past employers liked that I had interned (paid) at some big names because it showed that 1) i can handle tough hours and 2) i had the skill set to be useful to a high caliber office. i've also spoken to people who had 'black lists' of firms to not hire from because of the burn out. while i like having a few big names on my resume now, i have different goals at the moment.
Tokyo can be inexpensive compared to a SF or NYC, but it's much harder if you're a foreign national as the Japanese can be xenophobic. a decent meal can be had for $5~$10 and rent under $500/month, none of those places I know of take english speakers though.
will galloway
Oct 11, 16 8:54 pm
There are places like Sakura house that cater to foreigners for short term stays. About 75000/ month share house. Tokyo is dead cheap compared to London or other world cities and we don't do class segregation in our urban planning so you can live almost anywhere you like. Some places do indeed refuse service to foreigners though. Especially the cheaper places. It's bullshit but a reality.
Fujimoto does great work. He was recently looking for French speakers to do proper job. Internship in Japan is also known as "open desk", meaning they let you work there for your benefit at a bit of free space. In practice it means making models from what I hear.
I've known a few people who worked for him and other starchitects here in Tokyo. Among those were several interns. Many end up applying to our office because we work European style hours etc. All in all I get the impression the experience was great but I have also heard horror stories.
I would not expect to become proper staff. Chances are low even if you speak Japanese. But unless you are literate in Japanese or another language the office needs you are about as useful as you can imagine when it comes to doing the work of an architect. You can't check building codes, go to the planning office, detail drawings or talk to clients or builders. In which case long term employment is really not likely just based on practical logic. What you are qualified for is making models.
More international offices like kengo kuma or nikken sekkei seem to offer more opportunity for advancement in an English environment. But there will always be a glass ceiling based on your birth. Not being Japanese is a barrier that some overcome but it's rare.
All that said, if you want an experience of Tokyo with intense architecture a short internship is not a bad thing. And you never know, something might come up and you could find yourself in a good position.
Only point I would make practically speaking is to be clear about your work in portfolio. We get lots of people applying to us with mediocre work in the states or Europe followed by exceptional work at the starchitect and we are forced to assume they are not as good as the best work but their worst. Nice eye candy but it's pretty obvious that they didn't suddenly find their voice in Japan. I recommend making an effort to mitigate that effect as much as possible if you want to be taken seriously.
Helicoide
Oct 27, 17 4:48 am
will galloway - Thank you for your comment, it was very helpful
As I see it, unpaid internships are an investment. You pay (a lot) for college, workshops, classes, lectures, conferences and exhibitions, but then go crazy about not being paid for 3 months while you are, in fact, learning a lot from great architects and being kinda close to them? I don't know about you but for me is not that big of a sacrifice, and I get the chance to visit Tokyo, just saying.
Like if the offer said "Three-month workshop in Sou Fujimoto's for only 1000$" most people would go without a doubt.
randomised
Oct 27, 17 9:01 am
From an individual point of view, sure, go for it. For the profession it is horrible, free labour allows offices to charge less for their services than they should which is leading to overall lower wages in architecture than other comparable fields. It forces people to work overtime for which their office isn't compensating, because they didn't charge their client what they should have. It in general lowers quality and standards and working conditions. Great you can put Fujimoto on your resume but it creates an Apartheid system within an already segregated profession, those lucky entitled ones with rich parents and trust funds can afford to work/slave for free at some starchitect jack ass, while ordinary folks are unable to get similar starchitect exposure. But hey, good for you...
FlameAura
Oct 27, 17 11:37 am
I am now looking for a job and also got this staff candidate offer. After first excitement worn out I did some research (and talked to a friend who interned there) and found out that indeed, there is very little chance of being hired.
While unpaid internships are maybe not cool, at least it's clear and honest about its conditions. This staff candidate is next level shit as it gives you hope of being hired (that is if you're good and able to afford living in tokyo for 3 months with little/no money) but in the end the office just uses you. It is just not fair.
will galloway
Oct 29, 17 8:18 pm
It is too easy to say free internships are a rich kid thing. Its not.
Fujimoto is not likely to hire any of his open desk staff full time. If you are Japanese I suspect it is more likely, but even then nothing is certain.
To be clear model making can easily mean spending a week making a thousand paper chairs for an exhibit at MOMA in NY. And then being told that they will be made from balsa wood instead, so you spend another week doing that. Not a lot of learning going on in that case.
You may also be doing something super fun and enjoyable. Its hit or miss.
There are lots of places in Tokyo that work this way. We made a choice in our office to not work that way when it became a topic here on archinect some while back. So we pay a stipend for interns, which means we cannot ask very many people to come here. to answer your questions about hours we work from 10:00 to 20:000. The partners work longer and on weekends, but we dont ask our staff to do the same.
To put things in perspective, wages in Japan are in any case quite low. Starting architect wages are about $25,000/ year. After some years it will go up to $40,000. Maybe a bit more, but I wouldn't expect to make any serious money here as an architect. These are normal wages in Japan, which has been in a deflationary economy for 20 years. Wages and costs do not go up. Its kind of strange. I wouldnt say its easy to live on those amounts, but its not impossible either.
We are also, very strangely, a super analog country. People pay for everything with cash, nobody gives a shit about BIM, and people are used like it was the 19th century. ie, lots of people work to get things done. Efficiency is not part of the culture here. So what you are seeing in offices like Fujimoto and Sejima is a reflection of how things get done in Japan. its not evil, its not about devaluing our profession, its simply a culture where people are not valued to begin with in any profession. That is all a bullshit way to live, no doubt, but I would caution against seeing Japan as if it were the UK or North America. Its not. Some cool things come from the particular circumstances here. So does a lot of crap. if you are interested in the reality of this country then a free internship for three months might be fun. Just dont expect it to lead to anything in Japan. Maybe its useful back home or later on, maybe not. That is true for almost anything that is only 3 months long. Its too short to be taken overly seriously quite honestly.
Maybe better to think of it like one of those extended holidays where you pay to sheer sheep in New Zealand. Its not quite transactional. Its something else.
randomised
Oct 30, 17 5:21 am
The fact your studio doesn't participate in the same practice says enough for me :)
icksdeh
Nov 13, 17 3:20 am
I can only urge everyone not to do unpaid internships. You don't learn anything and you won't be hired afterwards. They just use you as free labor slave and don't care about you.
The only way to stop this practice is to boycott it. Apply as regular employee, if they don't hire you, they can fuck off. It's not worth your time and sanity to work for free.
It's not prestigious to work for free for a famous architect. It's stupid.
Vendetta
Nov 15, 17 5:05 am
I know a Japanese guy who worked for him about one year. He could work for him only one year because they work very hard, and work for free.
One of my friend is French, he interned there about one month aand he told me that he will not work with Japanese company anymore.
You can work there but maybe you dont want to be an architect anymore
I am eligible for Staff Candidacy at Sou Fujimoto Architects, and I have a few questions for anyone who has been through staff candidacy or understands how it works.
My biggest question is - what are my chances of being hired? (I understand that it depends on my personal performance in the office and how many positions they have, but I'm generally looking to know whether they are actually serious about hiring. What is the percentage of candidates who are eventually hired full-time?)
Other questions -
Some things we DON'T need to talk about in this thread (start a new one if you have some strong opinions) - The practice of unpaid internships, the 'starchitect scam', or how I need to 'value myself.' In many ways, I consider this experience to be a form of 'grad school' that I don't have to pay for.
Thank you!
But, we kinda need to talk about the practice of unpaid internships. By working for free, you devalue the work of everyone else coming out of school. Don't do it.
Never work or free, you're contributing to a big problem in the profession and I would never hire or want to work with someone who has no idea how to value time.
No starchitect is big enough to whore yourself. Enjoy your terrible professional decision.
grow a pair of responsibility and tell sou fujimoto "FCK YOU!"
I think differently cuz I worked there.
Working for free is culture of Japan. However, it works only for japanese. There are 3 steps before being hired. Almost all of the people who have no problem with communicating can go further for first step. But the second one is more hard. I think it is their strategies. They just make u for them. That's all. It is fuckkkking extreme and expensive to stay in Japan in regard of rent fee and some kind of things.
If you have chances to work in your country, it is better. But if you want to work with people from diverse background and have fantasy of japan. Just go!
It's a shitty culture then and anyone defending this deserves ridicule.
1) very, very few candidates get hired. You're in the unpaid intern pipeline. Your labor is literally worthless. It's a resume builder, like you said, not a path to a salary.
2) It's manageable if you make it your life.
3) most non Japanese regret unpaid internships in Japan. Especially when your classmates worked for OMA, HdM etc. and were compensated.
IMHO, you're an idiot if you work for free. It's a shit negotiating tactic; you've agreed to be made their bitch, then you want to be paid afterwards? Not happening. Stay out of that pipeline.
Especially when your classmates worked for OMA, HdM etc. and were compensated.
Envy them living it it up in expensive European cities on a mid-triple digit monthly stipend! Models and bottles galore!
flatroof - Tokyo is expensive...
also, Europe has better beer.
The one thing that stuck with me from going to one of his lectures 3-4 years ago was...
"we build many, many models"
I remember thinking he must have an army of unpaid interns to put all these together...
Usually when I get something free it's amusing or interesting for about two minutes.
Then I throw it away.
That's you as an intern.
It might make sense become his bitch, if your end goal is to get his recommendation for a graduate program and hence get a handsome scholarship. That's about the only advantage.
But if you don't have an ulterior motive of this sort, stay out of this bullshit pipeline.
It might make sense become his bitch, if your end goal is to get his recommendation for a graduate program and hence get a handsome scholarship. That's about the only advantage.
But if you don't have an ulterior motive of this sort, stay out of this bullshit pipeline.
- balance out? no. the free time is free, pay is not higher to make up for that time
- hours are what they are - I assume they go as late as the buses & trains run. if you can't handle the hours, starchitects are not for you.
- 'worth it'? that depends on what you want to do later. some of my past employers liked that I had interned (paid) at some big names because it showed that 1) i can handle tough hours and 2) i had the skill set to be useful to a high caliber office. i've also spoken to people who had 'black lists' of firms to not hire from because of the burn out. while i like having a few big names on my resume now, i have different goals at the moment.
Tokyo can be inexpensive compared to a SF or NYC, but it's much harder if you're a foreign national as the Japanese can be xenophobic. a decent meal can be had for $5~$10 and rent under $500/month, none of those places I know of take english speakers though.
There are places like Sakura house that cater to foreigners for short term stays. About 75000/ month share house. Tokyo is dead cheap compared to London or other world cities and we don't do class segregation in our urban planning so you can live almost anywhere you like. Some places do indeed refuse service to foreigners though. Especially the cheaper places. It's bullshit but a reality.
Fujimoto does great work. He was recently looking for French speakers to do proper job. Internship in Japan is also known as "open desk", meaning they let you work there for your benefit at a bit of free space. In practice it means making models from what I hear.
I've known a few people who worked for him and other starchitects here in Tokyo. Among those were several interns. Many end up applying to our office because we work European style hours etc. All in all I get the impression the experience was great but I have also heard horror stories.
I would not expect to become proper staff. Chances are low even if you speak Japanese. But unless you are literate in Japanese or another language the office needs you are about as useful as you can imagine when it comes to doing the work of an architect. You can't check building codes, go to the planning office, detail drawings or talk to clients or builders. In which case long term employment is really not likely just based on practical logic. What you are qualified for is making models.
More international offices like kengo kuma or nikken sekkei seem to offer more opportunity for advancement in an English environment. But there will always be a glass ceiling based on your birth. Not being Japanese is a barrier that some overcome but it's rare.
All that said, if you want an experience of Tokyo with intense architecture a short internship is not a bad thing. And you never know, something might come up and you could find yourself in a good position.
Only point I would make practically speaking is to be clear about your work in portfolio. We get lots of people applying to us with mediocre work in the states or Europe followed by exceptional work at the starchitect and we are forced to assume they are not as good as the best work but their worst. Nice eye candy but it's pretty obvious that they didn't suddenly find their voice in Japan. I recommend making an effort to mitigate that effect as much as possible if you want to be taken seriously.
will galloway - Thank you for your comment, it was very helpful
As I see it, unpaid internships are an investment. You pay (a lot) for college, workshops, classes, lectures, conferences and exhibitions, but then go crazy about not being paid for 3 months while you are, in fact, learning a lot from great architects and being kinda close to them? I don't know about you but for me is not that big of a sacrifice, and I get the chance to visit Tokyo, just saying.
Like if the offer said "Three-month workshop in Sou Fujimoto's for only 1000$" most people would go without a doubt.
From an individual point of view, sure, go for it. For the profession it is horrible, free labour allows offices to charge less for their services than they should which is leading to overall lower wages in architecture than other comparable fields. It forces people to work overtime for which their office isn't compensating, because they didn't charge their client what they should have. It in general lowers quality and standards and working conditions. Great you can put Fujimoto on your resume but it creates an Apartheid system within an already segregated profession, those lucky entitled ones with rich parents and trust funds can afford to work/slave for free at some starchitect jack ass, while ordinary folks are unable to get similar starchitect exposure. But hey, good for you...
I am now looking for a job and also got this staff candidate offer. After first excitement worn out I did some research (and talked to a friend who interned there) and found out that indeed, there is very little chance of being hired.
While unpaid internships are maybe not cool, at least it's clear and honest about its conditions. This staff candidate is next level shit as it gives you hope of being hired (that is if you're good and able to afford living in tokyo for 3 months with little/no money) but in the end the office just uses you. It is just not fair.
It is too easy to say free internships are a rich kid thing. Its not.
Fujimoto is not likely to hire any of his open desk staff full time. If you are Japanese I suspect it is more likely, but even then nothing is certain.
To be clear model making can easily mean spending a week making a thousand paper chairs for an exhibit at MOMA in NY. And then being told that they will be made from balsa wood instead, so you spend another week doing that. Not a lot of learning going on in that case.
You may also be doing something super fun and enjoyable. Its hit or miss.
There are lots of places in Tokyo that work this way. We made a choice in our office to not work that way when it became a topic here on archinect some while back. So we pay a stipend for interns, which means we cannot ask very many people to come here. to answer your questions about hours we work from 10:00 to 20:000. The partners work longer and on weekends, but we dont ask our staff to do the same.
To put things in perspective, wages in Japan are in any case quite low. Starting architect wages are about $25,000/ year. After some years it will go up to $40,000. Maybe a bit more, but I wouldn't expect to make any serious money here as an architect. These are normal wages in Japan, which has been in a deflationary economy for 20 years. Wages and costs do not go up. Its kind of strange. I wouldnt say its easy to live on those amounts, but its not impossible either.
We are also, very strangely, a super analog country. People pay for everything with cash, nobody gives a shit about BIM, and people are used like it was the 19th century. ie, lots of people work to get things done. Efficiency is not part of the culture here. So what you are seeing in offices like Fujimoto and Sejima is a reflection of how things get done in Japan. its not evil, its not about devaluing our profession, its simply a culture where people are not valued to begin with in any profession. That is all a bullshit way to live, no doubt, but I would caution against seeing Japan as if it were the UK or North America. Its not. Some cool things come from the particular circumstances here. So does a lot of crap. if you are interested in the reality of this country then a free internship for three months might be fun. Just dont expect it to lead to anything in Japan. Maybe its useful back home or later on, maybe not. That is true for almost anything that is only 3 months long. Its too short to be taken overly seriously quite honestly.
Maybe better to think of it like one of those extended holidays where you pay to sheer sheep in New Zealand. Its not quite transactional. Its something else.
The fact your studio doesn't participate in the same practice says enough for me :)
I can only urge everyone not to do unpaid internships. You don't learn anything and you won't be hired afterwards. They just use you as free labor slave and don't care about you.
The only way to stop this practice is to boycott it. Apply as regular employee, if they don't hire you, they can fuck off. It's not worth your time and sanity to work for free.
It's not prestigious to work for free for a famous architect. It's stupid.
I know a Japanese guy who worked for him about one year. He could work for him only one year because they work very hard, and work for free.
One of my friend is French, he interned there about one month aand he told me that he will not work with Japanese company anymore.
You can work there but maybe you dont want to be an architect anymore