I'm working on a project where we designed a wheelchair accessible bathroom according to ADA standards. Client requested to follow British Standard (BS 8300) for accessible design because "ADA Standard grab bars heights are too high." Since the UAE has not officially adopted either standard (or variation of such) as law, we just go with the client's wishes when they prefer one standard over another.
However, when I looked in to BS 8300, I noticed that a lot of the dimensions were quite different. For example, ADA toilet grab bar heights are specified at 33"-36" (840-915mm), while BS 8300 specifies a fixed height of 680mm (26.7"). The ADA minimum height is more than 20% higher than the British requirement. Why such a big difference? How did two nations come to significantly different regulations for the same problem with the same factors (human size, wheelchair dimensions, mobility, etc.)?
BulgarBlogger
Aug 22, 16 7:32 am
Good question... this may be speculation, but maybe the Brits are generally shorter than Americans? lol.. this sounds ridiculous, but standards such as these are generally developed through continuous analysis of anthropometric patterns within a society. Case in point: whey do stairs have to reject a 4" sphere? Answer: because that is generally the size of a normal baby's head.
Non Sequitur
Aug 22, 16 8:21 am
Ha!
Our grab bars have to be 760mm by 760mm "L" shape mounted at 750mm a.f.f. The 610mm long one above the toilet has a bit more flexibility for mounting height.
Wilma Buttfit
Aug 22, 16 9:00 am
None of the standards even show cupholders which shows none are clearly thought out.
Non Sequitur
Aug 22, 16 9:09 am
^or cell phone charger/usb outlets
geezertect
Aug 22, 16 9:33 am
Welcome to the regulatory nanny state.
A.I.
Aug 22, 16 9:49 am
Going through studio in college, ADA regulations and accessible design were probably the one code requirement and consideration you were expected to respect as you designed your parametric ZH ripoff, and you come out thinking that "yes, the super smart design professionals in the government spent a lot of time developing design standards through complex studies that protect society, and if I break them in anyway, I've committed a grave Arch. sin."
But then, when you actually look at it: 680 in the UK, 750 in Canada, 840-915 in the US... What the fuck does it actually matter if the workable design range between 3 developed countries is 9 inches!? I highly doubt average heights, human size,methods of wheelchair use, and toilet patterns differ between Canada, the US, and UK...
The discrepancy between the regulations basically say that an American handicap bathroom would be "dysfunctional" in the other two countries, or vice versa.
A.I.
Aug 22, 16 9:50 am
I know a toilet grab bar is nothing to stress over, but it makes you question all the other 'holy' standards...
Non Sequitur
Aug 22, 16 11:19 am
"I know a toilet grab bar is nothing to stress over, but it makes you question all the other 'holy' standards..."
I disagree. a toilet bar is exactly the type of argument I'd love to have in a bar. Can you imagine all the angry coaster sketches that would be produced over the course of 6 to 8 pints of Guinness?
If it helps, our Ontario code (most stringent of the Canadian provinces) just made massive changes effective Jan 2016 to the accessibility rules. I have a boat storage warehouse in construction that was required to have space for an adult diaper changing station... I kid you not. Perhaps that's why beer is required to discuss these codes.
curtkram
Aug 22, 16 11:34 am
beer is also why an adult would need diapers for their boat in canada
senjohnblutarsky
Aug 22, 16 11:52 am
I have sat through a couple Universal Design seminars, taught by a guy in a wheelchair, where the various standards were picked apart. His assertion was that the standards are obviously written by non-handicapped individuals.
The general goal, though, is that things be as universally accessible as possible. Not that they'll actually be accessible to every single person, but that they'll be as close as possible for most people. Which when translated means, it's all an opinion based on observation of a population. If that population wasn't a perfect representation of the users, then we have a skewed opinion and standard.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 22, 16 3:26 pm
i would assume various court cases steered each country in different directions.
gruen
Aug 22, 16 8:20 pm
Beginnings of ADA because of Vietnam vets. Generally young fit guys in wheelchairs. Does not work for unfit old people.
Aug 22, 16 10:34 pm
I'm working on a project where we designed a wheelchair accessible bathroom according to ADA standards. Client requested to follow British Standard (BS 8300) for accessible design because "ADA Standard grab bars heights are too high." Since the UAE has not officially adopted either standard (or variation of such) as law, we just go with the client's wishes when they prefer one standard over another.
However, when I looked in to BS 8300, I noticed that a lot of the dimensions were quite different. For example, ADA toilet grab bar heights are specified at 33"-36" (840-915mm), while BS 8300 specifies a fixed height of 680mm (26.7"). The ADA minimum height is more than 20% higher than the British requirement. Why such a big difference? How did two nations come to significantly different regulations for the same problem with the same factors (human size, wheelchair dimensions, mobility, etc.)?
If this project is based in the U.S. and is required by law to meet the ADA, then you don't have a choice. YOU MUST FOLLOW ADA AS IT IS REQUIRED BY THE APPLICABLE LAWS. Laws in foreign countries has no legal authority in the U.S. and they would only be considered a guideline or optional standards.
If the accessibility is NOT required by State or Federal laws of the U.S. then the BS 8300 standards maybe used as a design standard to meet client's design standards. However, BS 8300 has no legal authority in the U.S. and therefore the prescribed and adopted ADA and state specific accessibility requirements shall be met and takes legal precedence. So for example, if the BS 8300 and the ADA or State requirements are in conflict then the ADA or State requirement takes precedence ( in the U.S. of course).
In the UK, the ADA and any U.S. State accessibility standards has not legal authority in the UK.
You just can not substitute a regulatory requirement with a foreign regulatory requirement unless it is accepted and approved.
I will make it clear, if the ADA requirement must be met and you use a foreign accessibility standard and there are noncompliance issues, YOU maybe sued for negligence or tort. You have to be careful to meet the standards that has legal authority. There is no exceptions.
Bloopox
Aug 22, 16 10:57 pm
Rick could you at least read the original posts before you write these rants? The project is in the UAE. Neither ADA nor BS 8300 are adopted, and either could be applied.
As for the actual question: both standards are committee projects, by different committees, based on different research. Why are standard bar stools different heights in the US and UK? Nobody knows really - they just had different evolutions. Same with accessibility standards.
Aug 22, 16 11:47 pm
Bloopox,
Thanks. I missed seeing that he wrote that. I'll revise what I said for the OP to disregard what I said. Maybe, I should avoid writing posts while working on dinner.
In which case, I would advise the OP to look at any applicable accessibility requirements that UAE may have. Whatever accessibility requirements that UAE may require, you have to meet them. Whether these the requirements within the BS 8300 or ADA just happens to meet whatever accessibility requirements in UAE, UAE's legally adopted accessibility requirements must be met.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 23, 16 8:32 am
ricky you're that retarded, you can't eat dinner and read at the same time...rick you can't advise anyone on anything, you know that right? an IQ above 70 and at minimum a college degree is required - neither items you possess.
Non Sequitur
Aug 23, 16 8:39 am
Wait... this whole accessibility code thing is for the UAE?
Why do they care about universal accessibility when they shun basic human rights for most of the population anyways? Oh wait, it's for the rich white men tourists.
x-jla
Aug 23, 16 10:39 am
+++non sequitur
Non Sequitur
Aug 23, 16 12:31 pm
Thanks Jla.
Not sure I'll be able to top that one today.
Josh Mings
Aug 23, 16 12:40 pm
I mean, it's only fair to make sure your torture chamber is accessible.
Aug 23, 16 1:33 pm
ricky you're that retarded, you can't eat dinner and read at the same time...rick you can't advise anyone on anything, you know that right? an IQ above 70 and at minimum a college degree is required - neither items you possess.
I said working on dinner... not eating dinner. I do have a college degree so fuck you, Olaf.
no_form
Aug 23, 16 2:08 pm
rwcb, you do not have a college degree. you have an associates degree in drafting. stop misleading people or over-inflating your credentials.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 23, 16 3:56 pm
ricky you not have a college degree, so fuck you shit for brains.
AdrianFGA
Aug 23, 16 4:48 pm
However, when I looked in to BS 8300, I noticed that a lot of the dimensions were quite different. For example, ADA toilet grab bar heights are specified at 33"-36" (840-915mm), while BS 8300 specifies a fixed height of 680mm (26.7"). The ADA minimum height is more than 20% higher than the British requirement. Why such a big difference?
A.I.: While Brits tend to be shorter, I don't think they are on average 200 mm shorter.
To me, the 680 mm height is pleasant and easy to handle. Most likely there are other reasons too.
You might want to show your client the Building Regs, they wrap up BS standards very nicely. One of the Part M documents includes a diagram on page 52, showing how one can install the 600 mm bar rotated 15 degrees upwards, so that one end of the bar will be raised by approx. 155 mm, which brings that end more in line with ADA heights.
Aug 23, 16 5:33 pm
ASSOCIATES DEGREE IS A COLLEGE DEGREE. If you don't know that, you are idiots.
The fact that Olaf did NOT specify what college degree is not my fault.
Non Sequitur
Aug 23, 16 5:47 pm
Does an advocate degree qualify one for accessibility benefits? I know the scope is greater than those with physical handicaps, maybe balkanocho can park in preferential spots next time he's out and about in his parents' minivan.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 23, 16 5:56 pm
hahaha....yeahbwas thinking balkirino def. qualifies for some type of status
A.I.
Aug 24, 16 12:21 am
You might want to show your client the Building Regs, they wrap up BS standards very nicely.One of the Part M documents includes a diagram on page 52, showing how one can install the 600 mm bar rotated 15 degrees upwards, so that one end of the bar will be raised by approx. 155 mm, which brings that end more in line with ADA heights.
Super useful. Thanks.
AdrianFGA
Aug 24, 16 8:31 am
Super useful. Thanks.
You are welcome. Whether your project is residential or not, please bear in mind there are 2 Part M documents, one for dwellings the other one for non-dwellings (they should be read together anyway).
gruen
Aug 26, 16 2:20 pm
Associates Degree a college degree?
Same way a building designer is an architect.
Same way a Ford is a Lexus.
Non Sequitur
Aug 26, 16 2:29 pm
^same way a warm pint of Coors-Light is a perfectly poured Guinness.
I'm working on a project where we designed a wheelchair accessible bathroom according to ADA standards. Client requested to follow British Standard (BS 8300) for accessible design because "ADA Standard grab bars heights are too high." Since the UAE has not officially adopted either standard (or variation of such) as law, we just go with the client's wishes when they prefer one standard over another.
However, when I looked in to BS 8300, I noticed that a lot of the dimensions were quite different. For example, ADA toilet grab bar heights are specified at 33"-36" (840-915mm), while BS 8300 specifies a fixed height of 680mm (26.7"). The ADA minimum height is more than 20% higher than the British requirement. Why such a big difference? How did two nations come to significantly different regulations for the same problem with the same factors (human size, wheelchair dimensions, mobility, etc.)?
Good question... this may be speculation, but maybe the Brits are generally shorter than Americans? lol.. this sounds ridiculous, but standards such as these are generally developed through continuous analysis of anthropometric patterns within a society. Case in point: whey do stairs have to reject a 4" sphere? Answer: because that is generally the size of a normal baby's head.
Ha!
Our grab bars have to be 760mm by 760mm "L" shape mounted at 750mm a.f.f. The 610mm long one above the toilet has a bit more flexibility for mounting height.
None of the standards even show cupholders which shows none are clearly thought out.
^or cell phone charger/usb outlets
Welcome to the regulatory nanny state.
Going through studio in college, ADA regulations and accessible design were probably the one code requirement and consideration you were expected to respect as you designed your parametric ZH ripoff, and you come out thinking that "yes, the super smart design professionals in the government spent a lot of time developing design standards through complex studies that protect society, and if I break them in anyway, I've committed a grave Arch. sin."
But then, when you actually look at it: 680 in the UK, 750 in Canada, 840-915 in the US... What the fuck does it actually matter if the workable design range between 3 developed countries is 9 inches!? I highly doubt average heights, human size,methods of wheelchair use, and toilet patterns differ between Canada, the US, and UK...
The discrepancy between the regulations basically say that an American handicap bathroom would be "dysfunctional" in the other two countries, or vice versa.
I know a toilet grab bar is nothing to stress over, but it makes you question all the other 'holy' standards...
"I know a toilet grab bar is nothing to stress over, but it makes you question all the other 'holy' standards..."
I disagree. a toilet bar is exactly the type of argument I'd love to have in a bar. Can you imagine all the angry coaster sketches that would be produced over the course of 6 to 8 pints of Guinness?
If it helps, our Ontario code (most stringent of the Canadian provinces) just made massive changes effective Jan 2016 to the accessibility rules. I have a boat storage warehouse in construction that was required to have space for an adult diaper changing station... I kid you not. Perhaps that's why beer is required to discuss these codes.
beer is also why an adult would need diapers for their boat in canada
I have sat through a couple Universal Design seminars, taught by a guy in a wheelchair, where the various standards were picked apart. His assertion was that the standards are obviously written by non-handicapped individuals.
The general goal, though, is that things be as universally accessible as possible. Not that they'll actually be accessible to every single person, but that they'll be as close as possible for most people. Which when translated means, it's all an opinion based on observation of a population. If that population wasn't a perfect representation of the users, then we have a skewed opinion and standard.
i would assume various court cases steered each country in different directions.
Beginnings of ADA because of Vietnam vets. Generally young fit guys in wheelchairs. Does not work for unfit old people.
I'm working on a project where we designed a wheelchair accessible bathroom according to ADA standards. Client requested to follow British Standard (BS 8300) for accessible design because "ADA Standard grab bars heights are too high." Since the UAE has not officially adopted either standard (or variation of such) as law, we just go with the client's wishes when they prefer one standard over another.
However, when I looked in to BS 8300, I noticed that a lot of the dimensions were quite different. For example, ADA toilet grab bar heights are specified at 33"-36" (840-915mm), while BS 8300 specifies a fixed height of 680mm (26.7"). The ADA minimum height is more than 20% higher than the British requirement. Why such a big difference? How did two nations come to significantly different regulations for the same problem with the same factors (human size, wheelchair dimensions, mobility, etc.)?
If this project is based in the U.S. and is required by law to meet the ADA, then you don't have a choice. YOU MUST FOLLOW ADA AS IT IS REQUIRED BY THE APPLICABLE LAWS. Laws in foreign countries has no legal authority in the U.S. and they would only be considered a guideline or optional standards.
If the accessibility is NOT required by State or Federal laws of the U.S. then the BS 8300 standards maybe used as a design standard to meet client's design standards. However, BS 8300 has no legal authority in the U.S. and therefore the prescribed and adopted ADA and state specific accessibility requirements shall be met and takes legal precedence. So for example, if the BS 8300 and the ADA or State requirements are in conflict then the ADA or State requirement takes precedence ( in the U.S. of course).
In the UK, the ADA and any U.S. State accessibility standards has not legal authority in the UK.
You just can not substitute a regulatory requirement with a foreign regulatory requirement unless it is accepted and approved.
I will make it clear, if the ADA requirement must be met and you use a foreign accessibility standard and there are noncompliance issues, YOU maybe sued for negligence or tort. You have to be careful to meet the standards that has legal authority. There is no exceptions.
Rick could you at least read the original posts before you write these rants? The project is in the UAE. Neither ADA nor BS 8300 are adopted, and either could be applied.
As for the actual question: both standards are committee projects, by different committees, based on different research. Why are standard bar stools different heights in the US and UK? Nobody knows really - they just had different evolutions. Same with accessibility standards.
Bloopox,
Thanks. I missed seeing that he wrote that. I'll revise what I said for the OP to disregard what I said. Maybe, I should avoid writing posts while working on dinner.
In which case, I would advise the OP to look at any applicable accessibility requirements that UAE may have. Whatever accessibility requirements that UAE may require, you have to meet them. Whether these the requirements within the BS 8300 or ADA just happens to meet whatever accessibility requirements in UAE, UAE's legally adopted accessibility requirements must be met.
ricky you're that retarded, you can't eat dinner and read at the same time...rick you can't advise anyone on anything, you know that right? an IQ above 70 and at minimum a college degree is required - neither items you possess.
Wait... this whole accessibility code thing is for the UAE?
Why do they care about universal accessibility when they shun basic human rights for most of the population anyways? Oh wait, it's for the rich white men tourists.
+++non sequitur
Thanks Jla.
Not sure I'll be able to top that one today.
I mean, it's only fair to make sure your torture chamber is accessible.
ricky you're that retarded, you can't eat dinner and read at the same time...rick you can't advise anyone on anything, you know that right? an IQ above 70 and at minimum a college degree is required - neither items you possess.
I said working on dinner... not eating dinner. I do have a college degree so fuck you, Olaf.
rwcb, you do not have a college degree. you have an associates degree in drafting. stop misleading people or over-inflating your credentials.
ricky you not have a college degree, so fuck you shit for brains.
However, when I looked in to BS 8300, I noticed that a lot of the dimensions were quite different. For example, ADA toilet grab bar heights are specified at 33"-36" (840-915mm), while BS 8300 specifies a fixed height of 680mm (26.7"). The ADA minimum height is more than 20% higher than the British requirement. Why such a big difference?
A.I.: While Brits tend to be shorter, I don't think they are on average 200 mm shorter.
To me, the 680 mm height is pleasant and easy to handle. Most likely there are other reasons too.
You might want to show your client the Building Regs, they wrap up BS standards very nicely. One of the Part M documents includes a diagram on page 52, showing how one can install the 600 mm bar rotated 15 degrees upwards, so that one end of the bar will be raised by approx. 155 mm, which brings that end more in line with ADA heights.
ASSOCIATES DEGREE IS A COLLEGE DEGREE. If you don't know that, you are idiots.
The fact that Olaf did NOT specify what college degree is not my fault.
Does an advocate degree qualify one for accessibility benefits? I know the scope is greater than those with physical handicaps, maybe balkanocho can park in preferential spots next time he's out and about in his parents' minivan.
hahaha....yeahbwas thinking balkirino def. qualifies for some type of status
You might want to show your client the Building Regs, they wrap up BS standards very nicely.One of the Part M documents includes a diagram on page 52, showing how one can install the 600 mm bar rotated 15 degrees upwards, so that one end of the bar will be raised by approx. 155 mm, which brings that end more in line with ADA heights.
Super useful. Thanks.
Super useful. Thanks.
You are welcome. Whether your project is residential or not, please bear in mind there are 2 Part M documents, one for dwellings the other one for non-dwellings (they should be read together anyway).
Associates Degree a college degree?
Same way a building designer is an architect.
Same way a Ford is a Lexus.
^same way a warm pint of Coors-Light is a perfectly poured Guinness.