I am engaged in a dispute with my condo association. We have curtain walls in our unit. They do not claim that they are not curtain walls. But they are claiming that they are also windows because they are made of glass. Unit owners are responsible for windows. Unit owners are not responsible for exterior walls. It makes no difference that the condo docs take the trouble to single out skylights (which we also have) as being structures alongside windows which are the unit owners' responsibility. It makes no difference that it requires a crane and the involvement of residents below to maintain these walls.
We have plenty of anecdotal evidence that curtain walls are NOT some kind of window. That they are some kind of wall. Architects we have spoken to affirm this. We've found questions on the internet, for instance about CAD systems, which explicitly distinguish curtain walls from windows.
What I'm looking for are quotes from textbooks or CAD manuals which I could take to court. Can anyone point me to such references?
Thanks very much.
Everyday Intern
Jun 21, 16 12:13 pm
Are you sure you don't have window walls rather than curtain walls? That could confuse things even more if you're fighting over the terminology of what is exterior wall versus window.
Assuming you do have a curtain wall system, are any of the glazed lites in your curtain wall operable? If they are, aren't they technically venting windows installed in a curtain wall system?
Furthermore, you are planning on taking this into court. Shouldn't you be paying a lawyer to research this for you? Or at the very least, shouldn't you be offering to pay us for our time to research this? Are you talking with any of the architects you've already spoken to about this to serve as expert witnesses? Are they not credible as experts?
shellarchitect
Jun 21, 16 12:22 pm
if your bylaws say that they are both curtain wall AND windows, then that's what they are, would have to read the specific document. I'm not certain that it matters much what anyone else says.
windows and curtain walls have difference requirements, construction, etc.
I think you really need a lawyer and to think about what you intend to "win." Your neighbors will not be very happy if they suddenly find out they are responsible for maintaining someone else's "glass."
mightyaa
Jun 21, 16 1:43 pm
Curtainwalls are hung and run past the framing, often multiple stories. It is a wall system made up of stick type components. Glazing is normally set by a glazer subcontractor. It generally isn't bought like a window in standard sized then grouped together or set by itself.
A window is typically a prefabricated unit set into a framed opening.
A photo would help. Your experts would help more and a specialized construction defect attorney.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 21, 16 3:25 pm
We could ask our resident professional, Balkins Esq.
archanonymous
Jun 21, 16 3:33 pm
"I am engaged in a dispute with my condo association"
There is no hope. Give up now!
Josh Mings
Jun 21, 16 3:46 pm
This kind of stuff is the one thing scaring me away from buying a condo.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 21, 16 4:13 pm
Condos are always being sued.
mightyaa
Jun 21, 16 5:38 pm
Condos are always being sued.
This is a different case than typical though. Most, the ones the industry fears, are the construction litigation. Basically, if you make an error once, you tend to repeat that error over and over the entire complex. So one error on a one off house is one defect (for grins, $10k). In multifamily, that one error could be repeated a hundred times ($1m). And by the time you get experts in there, we find a couple hundred pages worth of other defects.... A few more million in damages give or take.
As for your fears of a condo... not much different than a single family house; your unit still just has the one defect that is causing an issue, and since most HOA's cover the shell, it's their dime to solve it for you. They are just feared because the damages are so spread out over a whole campus. So also in a sick sort of way; the attorneys are more willing to take on a multi-family case (more money) than a ailing single family residence unless it's one of the group cases across a whole development. Basically, you have a better shot of getting it taken care of in a condo than you would a house.
This case though is about a individual owner suing the HOA over a contested maintenance and "who's the responsible party" on a window (or storefront) depending. Honestly, I think this guy is screwed and it's gonna cost him as much to litigate as it would to repair... and if his attorney is good he'll strongly advise settling for a shared expense. The way a lot of these play out: If it looks like a duck.... or in this case a window.... the responsibility intent is there.
davedanil
Jul 20, 16 9:13 am
Hello, in the IBC International Building Code chapter 14 is regarding Exterior Walls, where "cladding" is different from any "window".
Carrera
Jul 20, 16 11:25 am
Somewhere in the bowels of the legal documents necessary to sell the condos is a survey drawing of your unit with a legal description….all that I’ve been involved with were done by surveyors and showed property lines…center of walls, outside wall etc…..first place I’d go if I got into a pissing contest on window terminology….slam dunk if the line is on the interior side….you only own what’s on the interior side of that line everything else is common property which you don’t own or insure....how can you be responsible for something you don't own?
bowling_ball
Apr 19, 23 8:23 pm
You've never heard of condos? Of course you're responsible for things you don't own.
I am engaged in a dispute with my condo association. We have curtain walls in our unit. They do not claim that they are not curtain walls. But they are claiming that they are also windows because they are made of glass. Unit owners are responsible for windows. Unit owners are not responsible for exterior walls. It makes no difference that the condo docs take the trouble to single out skylights (which we also have) as being structures alongside windows which are the unit owners' responsibility. It makes no difference that it requires a crane and the involvement of residents below to maintain these walls.
We have plenty of anecdotal evidence that curtain walls are NOT some kind of window. That they are some kind of wall. Architects we have spoken to affirm this. We've found questions on the internet, for instance about CAD systems, which explicitly distinguish curtain walls from windows.
What I'm looking for are quotes from textbooks or CAD manuals which I could take to court. Can anyone point me to such references?
Thanks very much.
Are you sure you don't have window walls rather than curtain walls? That could confuse things even more if you're fighting over the terminology of what is exterior wall versus window.
Assuming you do have a curtain wall system, are any of the glazed lites in your curtain wall operable? If they are, aren't they technically venting windows installed in a curtain wall system?
Furthermore, you are planning on taking this into court. Shouldn't you be paying a lawyer to research this for you? Or at the very least, shouldn't you be offering to pay us for our time to research this? Are you talking with any of the architects you've already spoken to about this to serve as expert witnesses? Are they not credible as experts?
if your bylaws say that they are both curtain wall AND windows, then that's what they are, would have to read the specific document. I'm not certain that it matters much what anyone else says.
For reference this may help: http://csinet.org/numbersandtitles
windows and curtain walls have difference requirements, construction, etc.
I think you really need a lawyer and to think about what you intend to "win." Your neighbors will not be very happy if they suddenly find out they are responsible for maintaining someone else's "glass."
Curtainwalls are hung and run past the framing, often multiple stories. It is a wall system made up of stick type components. Glazing is normally set by a glazer subcontractor. It generally isn't bought like a window in standard sized then grouped together or set by itself.
A window is typically a prefabricated unit set into a framed opening.
A photo would help. Your experts would help more and a specialized construction defect attorney.
We could ask our resident professional, Balkins Esq.
"I am engaged in a dispute with my condo association"
There is no hope. Give up now!
This kind of stuff is the one thing scaring me away from buying a condo.
Condos are always being sued.
Condos are always being sued.
This is a different case than typical though. Most, the ones the industry fears, are the construction litigation. Basically, if you make an error once, you tend to repeat that error over and over the entire complex. So one error on a one off house is one defect (for grins, $10k). In multifamily, that one error could be repeated a hundred times ($1m). And by the time you get experts in there, we find a couple hundred pages worth of other defects.... A few more million in damages give or take.
As for your fears of a condo... not much different than a single family house; your unit still just has the one defect that is causing an issue, and since most HOA's cover the shell, it's their dime to solve it for you. They are just feared because the damages are so spread out over a whole campus. So also in a sick sort of way; the attorneys are more willing to take on a multi-family case (more money) than a ailing single family residence unless it's one of the group cases across a whole development. Basically, you have a better shot of getting it taken care of in a condo than you would a house.
This case though is about a individual owner suing the HOA over a contested maintenance and "who's the responsible party" on a window (or storefront) depending. Honestly, I think this guy is screwed and it's gonna cost him as much to litigate as it would to repair... and if his attorney is good he'll strongly advise settling for a shared expense. The way a lot of these play out: If it looks like a duck.... or in this case a window.... the responsibility intent is there.
Hello, in the IBC International Building Code chapter 14 is regarding Exterior Walls, where "cladding" is different from any "window".
Somewhere in the bowels of the legal documents necessary to sell the condos is a survey drawing of your unit with a legal description….all that I’ve been involved with were done by surveyors and showed property lines…center of walls, outside wall etc…..first place I’d go if I got into a pissing contest on window terminology….slam dunk if the line is on the interior side….you only own what’s on the interior side of that line everything else is common property which you don’t own or insure....how can you be responsible for something you don't own?
You've never heard of condos? Of course you're responsible for things you don't own.