So I am still in pursuing a business undergraduate degree with hopes to get into a decent architecture graduate program. My concerns are nothing new... architects work very hard but make relatively low salaries. This is after six years of education. But what about those of you with your own firms? You can't really Google median salary for architecture firm owners. Anyone have experience with this? Anyone transition from architecture to real estate development? Im really trying to go into something I enjoy and am good at- but salary does matter.
,,,,
May 19, 16 9:27 pm
what would you consider a good salary?
archKash
May 19, 16 9:38 pm
In the six figure range
haruki
May 19, 16 9:41 pm
Six figures is easy peasy if you have your own office.
,,,,
May 19, 16 9:43 pm
How soon would you expect to get there? It takes some time and effort to fulfill the basic requirements for licensure.
Dangermouse
May 19, 16 9:44 pm
you can go above 6 figures quite easily. jerry locati has a place in the YC and his own plane. http://www.locatiarchitects.com/. dudes worth over 30 million afaik.
obviously, ymmv. i've worked for owners who make a comfortable 80-120k and for owners who make 2 million plus. of course, there are those who fail after a few years, or never break past 2-3 employees and 40-60k a year.
archKash
May 19, 16 9:52 pm
As a student I know I have a long ways to go. And 2 million damn!
no_form
May 19, 16 10:12 pm
So what are the differences between a 60k owner and 2 mil owner? What does each one succeed and fail at?
x-jla
May 19, 16 10:29 pm
The worse architecture the more money.
midlander
May 19, 16 10:46 pm
^the 60k owners do what they think architects should do. The 2 mil owners do what clients think architects should do.
There is no correlation between profit and quality - both good and bad architecture can make money.
Non Sequitur
May 19, 16 11:03 pm
Putting the whole acquirering a license and experience part, you'll need billable skills and clients willing to pay for such skills before you put down that deposit on that multi-million dollar yatch.
archKash
May 20, 16 12:03 am
How does what clients think architects should do differ from what architects think architects should do?
,,,,
May 20, 16 12:08 am
Crap is King
no_form
May 20, 16 12:16 am
So are you saying the profitable architects just do whatever a client asks for? Also, when clients think architects are not that valuable how do you demonstrate value? Which then goes to the question of what are billable skills?
Dangermouse
May 20, 16 12:17 am
in my experience, the 60k owners generally create competent architecture and deliver value...but thats it. for a client, they're a value play, like stocking your rental apartment with stuff from target.
if you want to hit 2 million you need to
a) talk clients into spending more after they hire you, ex. "if you spend an additional 5 million on daylighting and employee spaces, you'll cut turnover by 3%, which'll pay for itself in 8 years!"
b) have high fees and sell actual design services. i worked for a firm where our main competition charged 300k just to get out of bed and be on the project.
c) manage your business well and scale up successfully. tom kundig is a design genius but he is a successful design genius because he hired the right people and scaled successfully.
clients don't know what they want, 90% of the time. the guys who make the $$ have the balls to say "your idea wont work for you, here is why, and here is what you need to do".
archKash
May 20, 16 12:37 am
Thanks for the advice! Also, I'm guessing you don't agree with z1111 and midlander who argue that you just do what the client wants. You are saying to convince the client that what he wants is what you want.
,,,,
May 20, 16 12:43 am
I did not say that you do just what the client asks.
You need to carve out a special niche.
whistler
May 20, 16 1:10 am
I guess the better question does the work get better or just the salary? If you are just looking for the bump in salary I think you'll find that everyday is a disappointment. If you want to do better work, have some integrity about how you carry yourself and be smart about how you advance your personal wealth then you've got something to look forward to everyday.
Successful people don't see what they do as a "job" that they check into every morning,they have figured out a way to funnel their passion, their efforts in a smart manner to be successful.
Stop looking for the quick route to success ..... unless you were born into it.
Non Sequitur
May 20, 16 7:41 am
A popular saying about pre-hatched chick accounting seems appropriate here.
shellarchitect
May 20, 16 8:20 am
"Architects are pretty much high class whores" - Philip Johnson
geezertect
May 20, 16 8:26 am
^He got the class part wrong.
x-jla
May 20, 16 10:08 am
It's like any other business. You can be a billionaire selling hamburgers or you can barely survive. There are really 3 ways to make it.
1. Sell lots of low quality crap. (McDonald's)
2. Become a famous chef and Sell high quality hamburgers for a lot of money (500$ Kobe beef hamburgers with truffles)
3. Sell lots of pretty good burgers for a pretty good price...(5 guys)
the third one is tricky but firms like Gensler, Smith Group, etc...seem to have nailed it
Driko
May 20, 16 10:12 am
your going to make next to nothing if you dont understand basic business (fiance, marketing, accounting, and management). Architecture just happens to be the medium you are trying to sell/push.
You can make money doing almost anything. You can make a youtube channel and make tons of money but you need to know how to market your self and what to do when you earn money to make sure you have a steady cash flow. John Liautaud started a business with the choice of skipping college and taking a 25k loan from his dad and he is now a millionaire because he is business savvy.
your in business school right now and if i were you i would take in as much as i can from that because it is going to be far more important than anything else you learn if you want to make money and understand value.
Realize that almost everyone in architecture wants to start their own practice. We have too many architects that dont understand how to run a business. They will often take on work that they underestimate and gain little return. They also dont know how to deal with the clients in a professional way. they either piss the clients off and burn a bridge or they take on what ever extra work at little to no cost.
The idea of an architecture firm/practice is not a new one and has been around for a long time. There is always some one who will do your work at a lower cost. We are taught in architecture school to just be lucky we have work which has turned many of us into push overs who will take jobs in the 40-50k range with a professional degree and 3+ years of experience. If you really want to be successful in architecture you need to have a product or way of designing that will hold true value rather than be aesthetically pleasing.
no_form
May 20, 16 10:56 am
Driko,
Can you provide use with an example of a product or way of designing that holds true value?
bundy
May 20, 16 11:12 am
I posted on here a ways back that as a firm owner you sometimes make nothing, as in $0 in a year or even take on debt to float the firm. I've been doing this longer than most here and each decade has become increasingly more volatile and unpredictable making it extremely difficult to run a firm and keep people gainfully employed. We cut staff last year as our commercial and retail work dried up, and I made less than most of my employees that year FY 14/15. 2016 is off to a great start doing residential again however Im not ramping up, we just dont see this as sustainable given the contraction in other sectors. If you want to be an owner than 1. your a full time salesperson and will find yourself doing all the little BS nobody else will, like cleaning the server, inventory licenses, organize the prospects folder etc. 2. Be a psychologist. You will quickly realize that 90% of clients are batshit insane and you need to help them help themselves, its best to separate the designer from the client contact - you ever watch madmen? Its like that - one manager for contact one for creative, but you cant afford 2 so you have to do it. 3. Learn to live frugally. You will end up paying yourself once or twice a year. You need to be able to survive that long between paydays because your employees have familys and bills that come first, and if you cant handle that responsibility than dont take it on.
gwharton
May 20, 16 11:49 am
Thinking that the road to success is producing mediocrity or crap is a $40k/yr mindset. It's just a rationalization for failure.
x-jla
May 20, 16 12:49 pm
The mentality is a recipe for failure, but the practice can be very profitable. Not in anyway endorsing such practices, but companies like Kb homes, toll bros homes... seem to be making a fortune.
gwharton
May 20, 16 1:00 pm
The fact that a company can make a fortune producing mediocre crap is more of an indicator that the profession of architecture has failed to produce what people want with quality. That leaves the field open to those who are willing to satisfy that demand even if they can't provide a high-quality product.
Go look at that Locati site linked above. That guy is making a lot of money, and he's doing it by designing buildings people like at a high quality level. I'm sure there are lots of architects here who sneer at that work because it's "trite," "themed," "kitschy," or whatever and consider it "crap." But it isn't crap. Maybe that makes them feel better about themselves as they rationalize their own failures and cry over sketches of inhumane modernist monstrosities that got them A's in architecture school.
proto
May 20, 16 1:07 pm
locati represents one end of the bell curve
wouldn't it be awesome if we all knew multi millionaires who needed third homes at the yellowstone club?
fact is there are a lot of quality architects who don't have high budget clients
x-jla
May 20, 16 1:09 pm
Demanding quality via architecture is a luxury of the rich. Until architects can develop quality at a competitive price and sell it as a product vs a process toll bros will continue to exist. The Architecture business model is structurally Elitist whether it's selling quality Tuscan villas for 5 million bucks or quality modern villas for 5 million bucks....
JLC-1
May 20, 16 1:17 pm
I think we are mistaking luxury for quality, and unless all sort of businesses move their motivation from "just the bottom line and a private plane" to "let's do this right" nothing is going to change, owning you firm can be either way, depends if you want to do it right or just make money. And, having done business with KB Homes, I can testify the quality is not driven by architects, only spreadsheets.
x-jla
May 20, 16 1:24 pm
JLC-1, I'm not conflating quality with luxury. Small high quality homes are possible, but not unless the designer is also the developer. The average person cannot buy a lot and build a custom home. The financing is much more difficult, and the process is too time consuming for people who work.
x-jla
May 20, 16 1:28 pm
KB fills the void with readymade homes for a decent price. people want quality. Many people even want modern homes. The supply just doesn't exist. I've seen a recent trend with some of these homes and apts being stylized to look modern. They are selling like hot cakes despite the fact that they are mostly shit and stucco.
JLC-1
May 20, 16 1:29 pm
true, and there are examples of that model, but it's not the norm; I also put some blame on the media, promoting certain types of lifestyles that people look for and developers offer in a crappy version of the real thing.
x-jla
May 20, 16 2:11 pm
Plus, we are a consumer culture...custom tailored suits are just not part of that culture anymore... People want to look at 4 or 5 products and compare and contrast then buy and move in. Also, the process can take a year...where do you live during that time? Most people have to sell and move fairly quickly. Not possible when building from scratch. And without selling your existing home first it's nearly impossible for the average person to secure lending...let alone for a new build... Eichler homes were a good attempt at delivering quality to the average person...
JLC-1
May 20, 16 2:21 pm
wow, did a quick search, they're selling for 2 million now. not average person anymore.
x-jla
May 20, 16 2:40 pm
Yup
no_form
May 20, 16 2:47 pm
so really, there's a market for ultra-cheap trailers for people to rent and locate on their new property while they await construction of their new home. saving money lost on rent or avoiding building a new home to begin with.
So I am still in pursuing a business undergraduate degree with hopes to get into a decent architecture graduate program. My concerns are nothing new... architects work very hard but make relatively low salaries. This is after six years of education. But what about those of you with your own firms? You can't really Google median salary for architecture firm owners. Anyone have experience with this? Anyone transition from architecture to real estate development? Im really trying to go into something I enjoy and am good at- but salary does matter.
what would you consider a good salary?
In the six figure range
Six figures is easy peasy if you have your own office.
How soon would you expect to get there? It takes some time and effort to fulfill the basic requirements for licensure.
you can go above 6 figures quite easily. jerry locati has a place in the YC and his own plane. http://www.locatiarchitects.com/. dudes worth over 30 million afaik.
obviously, ymmv. i've worked for owners who make a comfortable 80-120k and for owners who make 2 million plus. of course, there are those who fail after a few years, or never break past 2-3 employees and 40-60k a year.
As a student I know I have a long ways to go. And 2 million damn!
So what are the differences between a 60k owner and 2 mil owner? What does each one succeed and fail at?
The worse architecture the more money.
^the 60k owners do what they think architects should do. The 2 mil owners do what clients think architects should do.
There is no correlation between profit and quality - both good and bad architecture can make money.
Putting the whole acquirering a license and experience part, you'll need billable skills and clients willing to pay for such skills before you put down that deposit on that multi-million dollar yatch.
How does what clients think architects should do differ from what architects think architects should do?
Crap is King
So are you saying the profitable architects just do whatever a client asks for? Also, when clients think architects are not that valuable how do you demonstrate value? Which then goes to the question of what are billable skills?
in my experience, the 60k owners generally create competent architecture and deliver value...but thats it. for a client, they're a value play, like stocking your rental apartment with stuff from target.
if you want to hit 2 million you need to
a) talk clients into spending more after they hire you, ex. "if you spend an additional 5 million on daylighting and employee spaces, you'll cut turnover by 3%, which'll pay for itself in 8 years!"
b) have high fees and sell actual design services. i worked for a firm where our main competition charged 300k just to get out of bed and be on the project.
c) manage your business well and scale up successfully. tom kundig is a design genius but he is a successful design genius because he hired the right people and scaled successfully.
clients don't know what they want, 90% of the time. the guys who make the $$ have the balls to say "your idea wont work for you, here is why, and here is what you need to do".
Thanks for the advice! Also, I'm guessing you don't agree with z1111 and midlander who argue that you just do what the client wants. You are saying to convince the client that what he wants is what you want.
I did not say that you do just what the client asks.
You need to carve out a special niche.
I guess the better question does the work get better or just the salary? If you are just looking for the bump in salary I think you'll find that everyday is a disappointment. If you want to do better work, have some integrity about how you carry yourself and be smart about how you advance your personal wealth then you've got something to look forward to everyday.
Successful people don't see what they do as a "job" that they check into every morning,they have figured out a way to funnel their passion, their efforts in a smart manner to be successful.
Stop looking for the quick route to success ..... unless you were born into it.
A popular saying about pre-hatched chick accounting seems appropriate here.
"Architects are pretty much high class whores" - Philip Johnson
^He got the class part wrong.
It's like any other business. You can be a billionaire selling hamburgers or you can barely survive. There are really 3 ways to make it.
1. Sell lots of low quality crap. (McDonald's)
2. Become a famous chef and Sell high quality hamburgers for a lot of money (500$ Kobe beef hamburgers with truffles)
3. Sell lots of pretty good burgers for a pretty good price...(5 guys)
the third one is tricky but firms like Gensler, Smith Group, etc...seem to have nailed it
your going to make next to nothing if you dont understand basic business (fiance, marketing, accounting, and management). Architecture just happens to be the medium you are trying to sell/push.
You can make money doing almost anything. You can make a youtube channel and make tons of money but you need to know how to market your self and what to do when you earn money to make sure you have a steady cash flow. John Liautaud started a business with the choice of skipping college and taking a 25k loan from his dad and he is now a millionaire because he is business savvy.
your in business school right now and if i were you i would take in as much as i can from that because it is going to be far more important than anything else you learn if you want to make money and understand value.
Realize that almost everyone in architecture wants to start their own practice. We have too many architects that dont understand how to run a business. They will often take on work that they underestimate and gain little return. They also dont know how to deal with the clients in a professional way. they either piss the clients off and burn a bridge or they take on what ever extra work at little to no cost.
The idea of an architecture firm/practice is not a new one and has been around for a long time. There is always some one who will do your work at a lower cost. We are taught in architecture school to just be lucky we have work which has turned many of us into push overs who will take jobs in the 40-50k range with a professional degree and 3+ years of experience. If you really want to be successful in architecture you need to have a product or way of designing that will hold true value rather than be aesthetically pleasing.
Driko,
Can you provide use with an example of a product or way of designing that holds true value?
I posted on here a ways back that as a firm owner you sometimes make nothing, as in $0 in a year or even take on debt to float the firm. I've been doing this longer than most here and each decade has become increasingly more volatile and unpredictable making it extremely difficult to run a firm and keep people gainfully employed. We cut staff last year as our commercial and retail work dried up, and I made less than most of my employees that year FY 14/15. 2016 is off to a great start doing residential again however Im not ramping up, we just dont see this as sustainable given the contraction in other sectors. If you want to be an owner than 1. your a full time salesperson and will find yourself doing all the little BS nobody else will, like cleaning the server, inventory licenses, organize the prospects folder etc. 2. Be a psychologist. You will quickly realize that 90% of clients are batshit insane and you need to help them help themselves, its best to separate the designer from the client contact - you ever watch madmen? Its like that - one manager for contact one for creative, but you cant afford 2 so you have to do it. 3. Learn to live frugally. You will end up paying yourself once or twice a year. You need to be able to survive that long between paydays because your employees have familys and bills that come first, and if you cant handle that responsibility than dont take it on.
Thinking that the road to success is producing mediocrity or crap is a $40k/yr mindset. It's just a rationalization for failure.
The mentality is a recipe for failure, but the practice can be very profitable. Not in anyway endorsing such practices, but companies like Kb homes, toll bros homes... seem to be making a fortune.
The fact that a company can make a fortune producing mediocre crap is more of an indicator that the profession of architecture has failed to produce what people want with quality. That leaves the field open to those who are willing to satisfy that demand even if they can't provide a high-quality product.
Go look at that Locati site linked above. That guy is making a lot of money, and he's doing it by designing buildings people like at a high quality level. I'm sure there are lots of architects here who sneer at that work because it's "trite," "themed," "kitschy," or whatever and consider it "crap." But it isn't crap. Maybe that makes them feel better about themselves as they rationalize their own failures and cry over sketches of inhumane modernist monstrosities that got them A's in architecture school.
locati represents one end of the bell curve
wouldn't it be awesome if we all knew multi millionaires who needed third homes at the yellowstone club?
fact is there are a lot of quality architects who don't have high budget clients
Demanding quality via architecture is a luxury of the rich. Until architects can develop quality at a competitive price and sell it as a product vs a process toll bros will continue to exist. The Architecture business model is structurally Elitist whether it's selling quality Tuscan villas for 5 million bucks or quality modern villas for 5 million bucks....
I think we are mistaking luxury for quality, and unless all sort of businesses move their motivation from "just the bottom line and a private plane" to "let's do this right" nothing is going to change, owning you firm can be either way, depends if you want to do it right or just make money. And, having done business with KB Homes, I can testify the quality is not driven by architects, only spreadsheets.
JLC-1, I'm not conflating quality with luxury. Small high quality homes are possible, but not unless the designer is also the developer. The average person cannot buy a lot and build a custom home. The financing is much more difficult, and the process is too time consuming for people who work.
KB fills the void with readymade homes for a decent price. people want quality. Many people even want modern homes. The supply just doesn't exist. I've seen a recent trend with some of these homes and apts being stylized to look modern. They are selling like hot cakes despite the fact that they are mostly shit and stucco.
true, and there are examples of that model, but it's not the norm; I also put some blame on the media, promoting certain types of lifestyles that people look for and developers offer in a crappy version of the real thing.
Plus, we are a consumer culture...custom tailored suits are just not part of that culture anymore... People want to look at 4 or 5 products and compare and contrast then buy and move in. Also, the process can take a year...where do you live during that time? Most people have to sell and move fairly quickly. Not possible when building from scratch. And without selling your existing home first it's nearly impossible for the average person to secure lending...let alone for a new build... Eichler homes were a good attempt at delivering quality to the average person...
wow, did a quick search, they're selling for 2 million now. not average person anymore.
Yup
so really, there's a market for ultra-cheap trailers for people to rent and locate on their new property while they await construction of their new home. saving money lost on rent or avoiding building a new home to begin with.