I recently became licensed. A co-worker asked me to sign and seal a drawing for a 12'x24' pavilion for his neighbor. It consists of a concrete slab, posts, trusses and a roof. My co-worker already drew it up, but the building dept is requiring an architect or engineers seal. I really have no idea (if I decide to s&s it) what to charge.
Any ideas?
SpontaneousCombustion
Feb 16, 16 1:12 pm
First you need to check your state's statutes. In most states it is illegal for you to stamp documents for which you were not in responsible control during their production. A few states do allow you to stamp something like this even if you weren't involved in the document production, if you keep a detailed written log of your review of these documents and of any corrections to the documents that you require. If you're in a state that requires your responsible control over production of the documents it varies from state to state whether that means that you have to have been on the premises as they were produced, or whether you have to have just been apprised of their progress, or something in between.
If it's legal for you to stamp and you decide to do it, charge what it's worth to you to assume liability for this coworker's project.
shellarchitect
Feb 16, 16 1:38 pm
that's a pretty big pavilion, i'm sure there is a reason the build official wants it stamped.
$1,000 and check the drawings like crazy
senjohnblutarsky
Feb 16, 16 2:05 pm
Charge what you would've charged to do the whole project.
jarvvy
Feb 16, 16 2:07 pm
Do you have professional liability insurance?
proto
Feb 16, 16 2:13 pm
+1 to senjohnblutarsky, cuz you get left with the liability
i'm guessing you don't have e&o yet...your jaw will drop when you hear the costs, even on a project by project cost basis
JeromeS
Feb 16, 16 2:20 pm
Charge what you would've charged to do the whole project.
I second this- Although, without seeing it, I can't imagine that being more than $1k
Do you have professional liability insurance?
Personally, I'm not a fan of liability insurance, particularly for small work. Get a signed agreement, include the clause provided by the AIA about lowered fee - in lieu of LI. Put the clause near the beginning of the document, put it in bold type, and have it initialed.
snooker-doodle-dandy
Feb 16, 16 2:24 pm
Did you check all your lateral wind loads? One thing to draw it one thing to know it is stable and not going to fly away like a Kite!
x-jla
Feb 16, 16 2:32 pm
What state are you in? That's unheard of in these parts to require an architect for such a project. I suspect that the issue is that it is "unconventional" construction of some sort and is requiring engineering calcs... in which case an engineer may be a better person for the job... Stamp or no stamp, I personally wouldn't touch engineering...not worth it to me.
jeiffert
Feb 16, 16 2:33 pm
For the reasons stated by Snooker, better to just refer your co-worker to a structural engineer. Engineering fee would likely be far less than $1000, and you wouldn't be embroiled in the whole plan-stamping controversy.
arch76
Feb 17, 16 2:57 am
mj100-
This sounds like an awesome early project- depending on your location, a 288SF pavilion may work out to be a $30-40k project. I would redraw the job to code, and hire an SE for $500-$1000 to review your work and provide design and calcs you can reflect in your set. The SE shouldn't need to provide drawings or a seal, so you would assume their liability. Choose your SE wisely. Again, it sounds like a fairly simple project, and with a SE reviewing and sizing stuff, and detailing connections, it's a cake walk for you to research zoning and code, assemble a permit set, and deal with any paperwork or future plan review comments. I'd bill for the job knowing a certain fee was going to the SE, knock it out in a week, and move on.
Regarding E&O insurance, a big name, no deductible policy can be had for +/- $200/month assuming a split between commercial/ residential work (residential is riskier, thus costlier.) It does feel a lot better working with an E&O policy as it allows you to trust yourself to make a decision as detailed in the previous paragraph...
good luck!
Lee Robert
Feb 17, 16 8:45 am
If it was me... I'd review the drawings until I honestly felt comfortable with the design and engineering, then I'd sign/seal with no charge. It's always nice to do a favor for someone as long as you feel like the work is something that you can stand behind, and it didn't take you long to review.
Also, why doesn't your friend just go to a structural engineer? Seems like more of a load question anyways.
geezertect
Feb 17, 16 8:45 am
The only time we're not bitching about non-licensed people poaching in our back yard is when we are giving advice about assisting them in poaching in our back yard. We have met the enemy and he is us.
Non Sequitur
Feb 17, 16 8:54 am
$15 and a back alley hand-job.
Funny, they covered how to bill projects in grad school and after that, it was part of the exams... figured that would be simple for most.
null pointer
Feb 17, 16 12:26 pm
What geezer said: Gouge the fuck out of him.
gruen
Feb 18, 16 9:59 am
Just order a fake stamp. Michael Mouse, registered archimikt. #6968
Fivescore
Feb 18, 16 10:07 am
People get caught for that occasionally. Better build the $2500 fine into your fee. And $14 for the stamp.
geezertect
Feb 18, 16 10:31 am
mj100: As an afterthought, is your employer aware and agreeable to your co-worker's moonlighting this job? Don't get sucked into it unless you're comfortable that it might not cost you your job as well.
gruen
Feb 18, 16 11:54 am
Actually-tell them to get a post and beam company to design, stamp and build it.
Donna Sink
Feb 18, 16 12:13 pm
JeromeS, what is this? Get a signed agreement, include the clause provided by the AIA about lowered fee - in lieu of LI. Is this a real thing?
mj100 unless you're very close, trusted friends with the co-worker's neighbor, don't do it. If the neighbor is an asshole it will come back to bite you.
The Architect may wish to consider agreeing to reduce its compensation in consideration of a
limitation of liability.
Model Language:
In consideration of a reduction represented in the Architect’s compensation, the parties agree that
neither the Architect, Architect’s consultants, nor their agents or employees shall be jointly or
individually liable to the Owner in an amount in excess of the Architect’s compensation.
Donna Sink
Feb 18, 16 1:39 pm
Oh that clause, right. I'd forgotten about it! I've never worked on a large project in which a client was willing to accept that clause, but in a small project like this one (assuming it's not an example of straight-up plan stamping) it makes sense.
Fivescore
Feb 18, 16 1:57 pm
60% of lawsuits against architects are brought by third parties (contractors, sub-contractors, neighbors, future owners, visitors...) That clause also doesn't do anything to protect your professional license - i.e. the client agrees not to sue you for more than your fee, but they or anyone else can file a complaint with the state, which may result in expenses related to your defense, and fines and/or suspension or loss of license. Some states have no statute of repose - a case can arise at any time - sometimes many owners later when the now-neglected pavillion falls on someone or something and the homeowner's insurance goes after everyone possible including you.
JeromeS
Feb 18, 16 2:50 pm
that sounds like a Balkins legal analysis; nearly every state has statute of repose. Even states not listed on page 3 of the compendium (like NY) have a limitation - see page 51
"now-neglected" is a far cry from errors & omissions.
Fivescore
Feb 18, 16 5:26 pm
Yes I know it's a far cry from E&O - but that doesn't stop people from filing claims.
As for "Balkins legal analysis" - my state has no statue of repose for architects. I believe there are currently 5 states for which this is the case. This AIA compilation is incorrect in that for some of the states it is listing the limits for civil cases involving construction projects, but overlooking the fact that architects and engineers are specifically excluded from those limits.
SpontaneousCombustion
Feb 18, 16 5:36 pm
That link is indeed misleading. I am in Vermont where there is a current statute of repose but the AIA compendium fails to note that it applies only very narrowly to a few project types. For everything else we're on the hook forever. The issue went to the legislature last year but failed to make it to a vote. Here is a brief: https://www.aiavt.org/fileadmin/files/Press/AIA_Statute_of_Repose_UPDATED.pdf
Feb 18, 16 6:35 pm
Threesleeve,
Careful in your analysis.
For the most part, you would have to be practically charged with heinous crimes for unlimited statutes of repose/limitations.
Please cite the states. All we have is your opinion and you say 5 states but I don't know if that is entirely true. As you noticed in the statutes for Oregon, I wouldn't be exempt from people filing a case against me. ORS 12.135.
We are talking about Tort which is a civil proceeding.
You seem to implying criminal charges.
ALL CIVIL CASES HAVE A STATUTES OF REPOSE/LIMITATIONS except maybe state income tax matters with some states. Just because a state doesn't define explicitly a statutes of repose or limitations for architects, there is still a limit as the default rule for all civil proceedings and that would be applied. States typically have a statutes of repose of 10-15 years as a default and a 2 year statutes of limitation rule or something like that. That is define by each state.
If an architect is being criminally charged for death/injury, you are talking about charges such as manslaughter, aggravated manslaughter, murder, attempt of murder/manslaughter, etc. as well as some kinds of fraud cases. At that point, it doesn't matter if you are licensed or not. If a person is being charged of those kinds of crimes, that person is in some serious shit and it doesn't matter if the person is licensed or not.
I will be clear, those charges can be applied to anyone.
Feb 18, 16 6:43 pm
Well, taking a look at Vermont's Construction statutes of repose rules more specifically.
Interesting..... while there is no limit... lets see what it actually applies to and who it applies to. There does seem to be a SIX YEAR rule for civil actions to commence. There isn't a defined statutes of repose for construction defects..... but the six year rule would still apply for cases. So does the specific rules for each civil and criminal charges.
I'll have fun reading the statutes on this.
Feb 18, 16 6:53 pm
In which case, it would be six years from discovery or something like that. If a person is injured or harm, there is six years that a person must take action. If they sit on their laurels, then the case can go dead for that instance.
Feb 18, 16 7:16 pm
I had been checking through the rules, while there isn't a statutes of repose for construction & the design of construction which DOES apply to not only architects but also unlicensed designers as there is no law making a distinction. Those issues applies would apply to me as it would Sponty if we both were designing in Vermont. It's an issue that is mutually a concern for both architects and designers.
However, there is some drop dead points for actions.
If I design a house or whatever in Vermont, I would be on the hook as it would be for Sponty. I would agree that there should be a statutes of repose that isn't limited to only architects but anyone who furnishes the design services but it is what it is.
SpontaneousCombustion
Feb 18, 16 7:24 pm
Rick the 6 years is a statute of limitations, not a statute of repose. There is a 6 year statute of repose for architects and engineers on condo projects specifically, but not other projects.
My day job is in MA so I'm not losing tons of sleep over the very limited work I've done in VT - my point is just that the AIA document that Jerome posted above isn't particularly accurate.
There are also loopholes to the limits - for instance until very recently Florida allowed anyone who was unsuccessful in an original civil suit to serially sue additional parties - regardless of whether the clock had run out, and even if they weren't named in the original case - as long as the first case was filed within the limit. For instance if you sued the engineer and lost, even if the clock had run out you could now sue the contractor, and then sue the architect, and so on - because it was considered to be part of the original case, even if the new defendants were never named in the original case. Sometimes the strings of cases continued for decades.
Feb 18, 16 11:23 pm
Sponty,
Yes, indeed it is. I hear you on your point. I'm not critically concern about condos especially if it would be a non-exempt project but even if I did do it, I would nontheless have that problem up my ass until kingdom come. I would even say that I wouldn't even have that 6 year statutes of repose.
Then again, a Judge may still apply the term architect to include unlicensed designers as well depending on how it is written. I haven't exactly sifted through every piece of Vermont law as I had a meeting to go to at 5pm (PST) time.
"There are also loopholes to the limits - for instance until very recently Florida allowed anyone who was unsuccessful in an original civil suit to serially sue additional parties - regardless of whether the clock had run out, and even if they weren't named in the original case - as long as the first case was filed within the limit. For instance if you sued the engineer and lost, even if the clock had run out you could now sue the contractor, and then sue the architect, and so on - because it was considered to be part of the original case, even if the new defendants were never named in the original case. Sometimes the strings of cases continued for decades"
Oh yes, the continuation extension loopholes.... royal bitches especially if they really string it out to the limit. Those are real.... you get the idea. That sh-t can apply to me as it would the other people. License isn't necessarily a requirement to be sued and have liability.
That is why I do have issues with people saying unlicensed people don't have liabilities or can not be sued. While I am fortunate to not have had to face such problems but I do understand that I am not lawsuit proof when I am working independently. As an employee, that maybe true but when I am not, that is a whole different game.
However, there are far too many who just don't know the risk and liability that they have and then there is the clients who don't know their legal options.
Feb 18, 16 11:31 pm
Just so you know, I wouldn't lose sleep over the stuff but definitely worth doing one's work competently.
If more of our practitioners knew and understood the liability they have, they would charge more to make it worth their time and do things better versus a proverbial race to the bottom.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 19, 16 9:14 am
Contractual limits to liability are a hoax. Any bus station lawyer could get past that in a nanosecond. Negligence, intent to defraud, etc. And what about binding arbitration? All the trappings of court without any of the rules. Surprised our resident legal expert hasn't brought that up (please don't consider that an invitation).
Oh wait - he has no legal experience.
Donna Sink
Feb 19, 16 9:28 am
So here is what I love about this thread:
What seems, to many people including probably the OP's co-worker, to be a super simple thing - "I'll pay you $x for a stamp" - actually involves ethical and legal ramifications that could last a lifetime. Architecture is serious business! We're not pussies. We're architects, dammit.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 19, 16 9:33 am
It would be interesting to frame these issues with respect to a cosmetology license.
JeromeS
Feb 19, 16 9:57 am
cosmetology license; worst thing that could happen = 3 months of re-growth.
or- how about the monks in Louisianna, building wooden coffins, sued by the State Board governing mortuary services...
geezertect
Feb 19, 16 10:05 am
Miles is right. No agreement is going to bind a third party, and won't protect you from malpractice liability. If it was that simple, who would buy liability insurance?
A 12'x24' pavilion is a glorified carport. Make sure there is adequate structure (spans, windbracing, piers, etc. and be done with it. Or better yet, just have the co-worker get a friendly engineer to stamp it. Option number two is the better choice as far as I'm concerned.
Fivescore
Feb 19, 16 10:13 am
When I was in high school the store manager at my part-time mall job had ended up in retail after she lost her cosmetology license by causing a third degree burn to a customer's face with a curling iron.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 19, 16 10:20 am
You can get a staph infection at the salon. And they hold razors to people's necks. Makes total sense. They use formaldehyde and other toxic stuff too that can kill people.
JeromeS
Feb 19, 16 10:41 am
"negligence, intent to defraud, etc"
This conduct can't be insured against anyway, so is not a reason TO buy Liability Insurance.
Volunteer
Feb 19, 16 11:32 am
Usually entire outbuildings 200 square feet or less do not require a permit so the owner could consider cutting the size down slightly. Also most communities have limits as to how close to the property line something can be built. That said, it seems this pavilion could easily become the neighborhood eyesore, especially if it becomes a storage area.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 19, 16 12:06 pm
Jerome, those are positions the opposition will take to negate the contract. If you're defending you'll likely be bankrupt before you get to court. Those scales that blid-folded Lady Justice is holding are for weighing money. The sword is to make sure you pay.
mj100
Feb 21, 16 11:57 am
I appreciate all of the comments and the stimulating conversation! I, eventually, told him to use someone else to stamp his drawings. I just didn't feel comfortable doing it.
I recently became licensed. A co-worker asked me to sign and seal a drawing for a 12'x24' pavilion for his neighbor. It consists of a concrete slab, posts, trusses and a roof. My co-worker already drew it up, but the building dept is requiring an architect or engineers seal. I really have no idea (if I decide to s&s it) what to charge.
Any ideas?
First you need to check your state's statutes. In most states it is illegal for you to stamp documents for which you were not in responsible control during their production. A few states do allow you to stamp something like this even if you weren't involved in the document production, if you keep a detailed written log of your review of these documents and of any corrections to the documents that you require. If you're in a state that requires your responsible control over production of the documents it varies from state to state whether that means that you have to have been on the premises as they were produced, or whether you have to have just been apprised of their progress, or something in between.
If it's legal for you to stamp and you decide to do it, charge what it's worth to you to assume liability for this coworker's project.
that's a pretty big pavilion, i'm sure there is a reason the build official wants it stamped.
$1,000 and check the drawings like crazy
Charge what you would've charged to do the whole project.
Do you have professional liability insurance?
+1 to senjohnblutarsky, cuz you get left with the liability
i'm guessing you don't have e&o yet...your jaw will drop when you hear the costs, even on a project by project cost basis
Charge what you would've charged to do the whole project.
I second this- Although, without seeing it, I can't imagine that being more than $1k
Do you have professional liability insurance?
Personally, I'm not a fan of liability insurance, particularly for small work. Get a signed agreement, include the clause provided by the AIA about lowered fee - in lieu of LI. Put the clause near the beginning of the document, put it in bold type, and have it initialed.
Did you check all your lateral wind loads? One thing to draw it one thing to know it is stable and not going to fly away like a Kite!
What state are you in? That's unheard of in these parts to require an architect for such a project. I suspect that the issue is that it is "unconventional" construction of some sort and is requiring engineering calcs... in which case an engineer may be a better person for the job... Stamp or no stamp, I personally wouldn't touch engineering...not worth it to me.
For the reasons stated by Snooker, better to just refer your co-worker to a structural engineer. Engineering fee would likely be far less than $1000, and you wouldn't be embroiled in the whole plan-stamping controversy.
mj100-
This sounds like an awesome early project- depending on your location, a 288SF pavilion may work out to be a $30-40k project. I would redraw the job to code, and hire an SE for $500-$1000 to review your work and provide design and calcs you can reflect in your set. The SE shouldn't need to provide drawings or a seal, so you would assume their liability. Choose your SE wisely. Again, it sounds like a fairly simple project, and with a SE reviewing and sizing stuff, and detailing connections, it's a cake walk for you to research zoning and code, assemble a permit set, and deal with any paperwork or future plan review comments. I'd bill for the job knowing a certain fee was going to the SE, knock it out in a week, and move on.
Regarding E&O insurance, a big name, no deductible policy can be had for +/- $200/month assuming a split between commercial/ residential work (residential is riskier, thus costlier.) It does feel a lot better working with an E&O policy as it allows you to trust yourself to make a decision as detailed in the previous paragraph...
good luck!
If it was me... I'd review the drawings until I honestly felt comfortable with the design and engineering, then I'd sign/seal with no charge. It's always nice to do a favor for someone as long as you feel like the work is something that you can stand behind, and it didn't take you long to review.
Also, why doesn't your friend just go to a structural engineer? Seems like more of a load question anyways.
The only time we're not bitching about non-licensed people poaching in our back yard is when we are giving advice about assisting them in poaching in our back yard. We have met the enemy and he is us.
$15 and a back alley hand-job.
Funny, they covered how to bill projects in grad school and after that, it was part of the exams... figured that would be simple for most.
What geezer said: Gouge the fuck out of him.
Just order a fake stamp. Michael Mouse, registered archimikt. #6968
People get caught for that occasionally. Better build the $2500 fine into your fee. And $14 for the stamp.
mj100: As an afterthought, is your employer aware and agreeable to your co-worker's moonlighting this job? Don't get sucked into it unless you're comfortable that it might not cost you your job as well.
Actually-tell them to get a post and beam company to design, stamp and build it.
JeromeS, what is this? Get a signed agreement, include the clause provided by the AIA about lowered fee - in lieu of LI. Is this a real thing?
mj100 unless you're very close, trusted friends with the co-worker's neighbor, don't do it. If the neighbor is an asshole it will come back to bite you.
Donna, From B503
Example C: Compensation Reduction
The Architect may wish to consider agreeing to reduce its compensation in consideration of a
limitation of liability.
Model Language:
In consideration of a reduction represented in the Architect’s compensation, the parties agree that
neither the Architect, Architect’s consultants, nor their agents or employees shall be jointly or
individually liable to the Owner in an amount in excess of the Architect’s compensation.
Oh that clause, right. I'd forgotten about it! I've never worked on a large project in which a client was willing to accept that clause, but in a small project like this one (assuming it's not an example of straight-up plan stamping) it makes sense.
60% of lawsuits against architects are brought by third parties (contractors, sub-contractors, neighbors, future owners, visitors...) That clause also doesn't do anything to protect your professional license - i.e. the client agrees not to sue you for more than your fee, but they or anyone else can file a complaint with the state, which may result in expenses related to your defense, and fines and/or suspension or loss of license. Some states have no statute of repose - a case can arise at any time - sometimes many owners later when the now-neglected pavillion falls on someone or something and the homeowner's insurance goes after everyone possible including you.
that sounds like a Balkins legal analysis; nearly every state has statute of repose. Even states not listed on page 3 of the compendium (like NY) have a limitation - see page 51
"now-neglected" is a far cry from errors & omissions.
Yes I know it's a far cry from E&O - but that doesn't stop people from filing claims.
As for "Balkins legal analysis" - my state has no statue of repose for architects. I believe there are currently 5 states for which this is the case. This AIA compilation is incorrect in that for some of the states it is listing the limits for civil cases involving construction projects, but overlooking the fact that architects and engineers are specifically excluded from those limits.
That link is indeed misleading. I am in Vermont where there is a current statute of repose but the AIA compendium fails to note that it applies only very narrowly to a few project types. For everything else we're on the hook forever. The issue went to the legislature last year but failed to make it to a vote. Here is a brief: https://www.aiavt.org/fileadmin/files/Press/AIA_Statute_of_Repose_UPDATED.pdf
Threesleeve,
Careful in your analysis.
For the most part, you would have to be practically charged with heinous crimes for unlimited statutes of repose/limitations.
Please cite the states. All we have is your opinion and you say 5 states but I don't know if that is entirely true. As you noticed in the statutes for Oregon, I wouldn't be exempt from people filing a case against me. ORS 12.135.
We are talking about Tort which is a civil proceeding.
You seem to implying criminal charges.
ALL CIVIL CASES HAVE A STATUTES OF REPOSE/LIMITATIONS except maybe state income tax matters with some states. Just because a state doesn't define explicitly a statutes of repose or limitations for architects, there is still a limit as the default rule for all civil proceedings and that would be applied. States typically have a statutes of repose of 10-15 years as a default and a 2 year statutes of limitation rule or something like that. That is define by each state.
If an architect is being criminally charged for death/injury, you are talking about charges such as manslaughter, aggravated manslaughter, murder, attempt of murder/manslaughter, etc. as well as some kinds of fraud cases. At that point, it doesn't matter if you are licensed or not. If a person is being charged of those kinds of crimes, that person is in some serious shit and it doesn't matter if the person is licensed or not.
I will be clear, those charges can be applied to anyone.
Well, taking a look at Vermont's Construction statutes of repose rules more specifically.
Interesting..... while there is no limit... lets see what it actually applies to and who it applies to. There does seem to be a SIX YEAR rule for civil actions to commence. There isn't a defined statutes of repose for construction defects..... but the six year rule would still apply for cases. So does the specific rules for each civil and criminal charges.
I'll have fun reading the statutes on this.
In which case, it would be six years from discovery or something like that. If a person is injured or harm, there is six years that a person must take action. If they sit on their laurels, then the case can go dead for that instance.
I had been checking through the rules, while there isn't a statutes of repose for construction & the design of construction which DOES apply to not only architects but also unlicensed designers as there is no law making a distinction. Those issues applies would apply to me as it would Sponty if we both were designing in Vermont. It's an issue that is mutually a concern for both architects and designers.
However, there is some drop dead points for actions.
If I design a house or whatever in Vermont, I would be on the hook as it would be for Sponty. I would agree that there should be a statutes of repose that isn't limited to only architects but anyone who furnishes the design services but it is what it is.
Rick the 6 years is a statute of limitations, not a statute of repose. There is a 6 year statute of repose for architects and engineers on condo projects specifically, but not other projects.
My day job is in MA so I'm not losing tons of sleep over the very limited work I've done in VT - my point is just that the AIA document that Jerome posted above isn't particularly accurate.
There are also loopholes to the limits - for instance until very recently Florida allowed anyone who was unsuccessful in an original civil suit to serially sue additional parties - regardless of whether the clock had run out, and even if they weren't named in the original case - as long as the first case was filed within the limit. For instance if you sued the engineer and lost, even if the clock had run out you could now sue the contractor, and then sue the architect, and so on - because it was considered to be part of the original case, even if the new defendants were never named in the original case. Sometimes the strings of cases continued for decades.
Sponty,
Yes, indeed it is. I hear you on your point. I'm not critically concern about condos especially if it would be a non-exempt project but even if I did do it, I would nontheless have that problem up my ass until kingdom come. I would even say that I wouldn't even have that 6 year statutes of repose.
Then again, a Judge may still apply the term architect to include unlicensed designers as well depending on how it is written. I haven't exactly sifted through every piece of Vermont law as I had a meeting to go to at 5pm (PST) time.
"There are also loopholes to the limits - for instance until very recently Florida allowed anyone who was unsuccessful in an original civil suit to serially sue additional parties - regardless of whether the clock had run out, and even if they weren't named in the original case - as long as the first case was filed within the limit. For instance if you sued the engineer and lost, even if the clock had run out you could now sue the contractor, and then sue the architect, and so on - because it was considered to be part of the original case, even if the new defendants were never named in the original case. Sometimes the strings of cases continued for decades"
Oh yes, the continuation extension loopholes.... royal bitches especially if they really string it out to the limit. Those are real.... you get the idea. That sh-t can apply to me as it would the other people. License isn't necessarily a requirement to be sued and have liability.
That is why I do have issues with people saying unlicensed people don't have liabilities or can not be sued. While I am fortunate to not have had to face such problems but I do understand that I am not lawsuit proof when I am working independently. As an employee, that maybe true but when I am not, that is a whole different game.
However, there are far too many who just don't know the risk and liability that they have and then there is the clients who don't know their legal options.
Just so you know, I wouldn't lose sleep over the stuff but definitely worth doing one's work competently.
If more of our practitioners knew and understood the liability they have, they would charge more to make it worth their time and do things better versus a proverbial race to the bottom.
Contractual limits to liability are a hoax. Any bus station lawyer could get past that in a nanosecond. Negligence, intent to defraud, etc. And what about binding arbitration? All the trappings of court without any of the rules. Surprised our resident legal expert hasn't brought that up (please don't consider that an invitation).
Oh wait - he has no legal experience.
So here is what I love about this thread:
What seems, to many people including probably the OP's co-worker, to be a super simple thing - "I'll pay you $x for a stamp" - actually involves ethical and legal ramifications that could last a lifetime. Architecture is serious business! We're not pussies. We're architects, dammit.
It would be interesting to frame these issues with respect to a cosmetology license.
cosmetology license; worst thing that could happen = 3 months of re-growth.
or- how about the monks in Louisianna, building wooden coffins, sued by the State Board governing mortuary services...
Miles is right. No agreement is going to bind a third party, and won't protect you from malpractice liability. If it was that simple, who would buy liability insurance?
A 12'x24' pavilion is a glorified carport. Make sure there is adequate structure (spans, windbracing, piers, etc. and be done with it. Or better yet, just have the co-worker get a friendly engineer to stamp it. Option number two is the better choice as far as I'm concerned.
When I was in high school the store manager at my part-time mall job had ended up in retail after she lost her cosmetology license by causing a third degree burn to a customer's face with a curling iron.
You can get a staph infection at the salon. And they hold razors to people's necks. Makes total sense. They use formaldehyde and other toxic stuff too that can kill people.
"negligence, intent to defraud, etc"
This conduct can't be insured against anyway, so is not a reason TO buy Liability Insurance.
Usually entire outbuildings 200 square feet or less do not require a permit so the owner could consider cutting the size down slightly. Also most communities have limits as to how close to the property line something can be built. That said, it seems this pavilion could easily become the neighborhood eyesore, especially if it becomes a storage area.
Jerome, those are positions the opposition will take to negate the contract. If you're defending you'll likely be bankrupt before you get to court. Those scales that blid-folded Lady Justice is holding are for weighing money. The sword is to make sure you pay.
I appreciate all of the comments and the stimulating conversation! I, eventually, told him to use someone else to stamp his drawings. I just didn't feel comfortable doing it.