I´m in the process of building my house in the remote Brazilian countryside, and have planned quite a large picture window for the second floor. I am very excited about this, as is my wife.
Overall glass dimensions will be 2.2m high x 2.7m wide x 10mm thick. If I´ve done my sums correctly, it will weigh around 190kg. Our plan is for a single glass pane, composed of a 4mm layer of Low-e glass (N-70) and a 6mm of common clear glass, laminated with a UV filtering film (Saflex).
This single-pane is to be installed in a hardwood frame (already installed), which has been provided with a rabbet 5cm wide and 2cm high on all four sides. 4cm wide hardwood retaining trim will be installed after the glass is in place. Bottom of the frame is about 3.5m from the ground, while the top is 5.7m high.
We still have some time to go before the glass will go in (indeed, the factory - which assures me the size is no problem for them - hasn´t yet started production). But already, I wanted to get some advice on best practice for the installation.
Big question: How´s the safest & surest way to do this? What are the customary ways for lifting such an unwieldy plate of glass into position? There is place beside the house to pull up a small crane truck (if I can find one to hire in one of the nearby towns).
Smaller questions: Given the size, are there any special considerations to bear in mind? How much play should I leave between the glass edge and the wooden frame? What kind of flexible spacers (if any) should I use to accommodate any eventual shifting of the wood with the seasons? Is it usual to run a bead of clear silicone around the frame before the glass is placed?
I´ll probably contract a local glazier to take the lead on this - but ours is one of but few 2-floor dwellings in the area, so there's not a lot of hoisting equipment or experience around. And from all too many disappointing experiences here so fare (carpenters, electricians, masons, etc), I´ve learned that a can-do attitude and a warm smile is no substitute for real expertise. And unlike easily repaired mishaps like mis-led wires or a mis-sized door-frames - getting this glass install wrong will be much more complicated to correct. So I want to be as ready as I can be.
Hope this is the right kind of forum to ask these questions. Thanks for any and all tips you can offer [including about the choice of glass - which can still be modified before fabrication starts].
Donna Sink
Feb 14, 16 12:20 pm
I'm confused on your role in this project: are you the designer? the homeowner? or both?
archiwutm8
Feb 14, 16 12:31 pm
Probably the wrong forum for this type of question, we're more of a arts and salary discussion forum.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 14, 16 12:48 pm
It's not all that big, just a bit heavy. Four men could easily handle it if somebody knew what they were doing (suction cups, staging, etc.). Typically use plastic shims below to set the glass with even spacing in the frame into a liberal bed of silicone caulking, then caulk again once in place, then apply stops. If it's not tempered it's especially easy to break, just touching an edge can destroy it. You might want to set it in a temporary frame for handling.
Which brings up a really important point: don't design beyond the capacity of your labor to build. Or beyond your own knowledge if there is no expert help available. Unless of course you are willing to pay for on the job training.
Cardamom
Feb 15, 16 10:23 am
Donna Sink: I am both home-owner and designer.
Miles Jaffe: Your point about recognizing the capacity of labor and ones own knowledge as a design constraint is well taken.
When we started the project, I was much more trusting of the knowledge and experience of local contractors. But as the project has moved forward, I've learned this trust was misplaced.
For example: despite quoting a price for construction of single-hung sash windows - I later learned that the carpenter has never heard of nor seen sash weights pulleys, or chains! Having already sourced the parts myself, I'm now spending lots of time researching and explaining the details of things I thought I could normally leave to the "professionals."
I've learned a lot in the process...but recognize there's lots I'm still ignorant of, which is frankly very scary. And so, your feedback on my questions re: glass installation is reassuring: it's a relief to know that a competent crew could probably install the pane in question without too much fuss. Where to find a crew like that - well, this is my problem to solve. I'm just glad that the problem itself is solvable.
snooker-doodle-dandy
Feb 15, 16 11:25 am
Cardamom...where are you in Brazil?
Cardamom
Feb 15, 16 11:37 am
About 5 hours from Sao Paulo....outside a small town called Pindorama.
It's not that remote a place... there is, after all, a good quality glass manufacturer about 70km away (in a regional city called Sao Jose do Rio Preto). But finding truly competent and creative contractors in our immediate vicinity remains a persistent challenge. For routine work, they have good practices... but for things out of the ordinary, it's hard for most to break out of old habits.
snooker-doodle-dandy
Feb 16, 16 10:53 am
Cardamom,
There are many Architects practicing in San Paulo who might be able to help you with a glazer. You just need to reach out. I'm sure your revolutionary ideas of massive amounts of glass are not a first for the Town you are located in.
Cardamom
Feb 16, 16 12:23 pm
snooker-doodle-dandy: With a metro-population of over 20 million, of course, one can have anything done in Sao Paulo. And obviously, the size of my window isn't revolutionary by any measure. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
It's just that what I want is a larger single pane than I've seen installed anywhere nearby. Here, similar sized expanses I've encountered are composed of two or more narrower glass panels, with butt-jointed vertical seams. With this as local custom - generally on ground-floor installations - I'd begun to worry my design for a single-pane on the second floor would be a problem. Was very relieved to read here (thanks again, Miles Jaffe) that, indeed, a knowledgeable crew should be able to manage without any special equipment. (Probably, I can find such people via the glass factory - and have now reached out to them for same).
It's been a long project so far - and we still have a fair way to go. In retrospect, maybe I would have saved myself lots of headache by contracting an Architect from the start. But then, I'd have deprived myself the steep and humbling learning curve I've encountered. Until now, we've been lucky not to have had any major screw-ups, and my message here was part of maintaining that trend.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 16, 16 12:40 pm
My inclination would be to set the glass in the frame prior to installing the frame in the building. Easier to set the glass horizontally, frame allows easier handling, frame installation becomes standardized.
Zbig
Feb 16, 16 4:23 pm
If you don't want to bring a specialty glazing contractor from São Paulo or at least Ribeirão Preto, you will have to do it very carefully and assume the risk of breakage. Most small town glazers are not equipped or experienced to handle very large panes of glass.
You can scaffold up. Then you can use a lift truck or winch to lift the glass up to the scaffold. You will need 4 to 6 helpers to set and secure the glass in place. Depending on the interior layout, you might want to do an interior glazed installation instead of exterior.
snooker-doodle-dandy
Feb 16, 16 4:58 pm
Cardamon,
From what I see on Google Earth your looking at a sizable city, 300,000 +. Lots of 20 story buildings. Seem like you shouldn't have a problem finding someone to do the install. From your post I figured you were in some place like Zap, North Dakota with a population of less than ten.
Hello,
I´m in the process of building my house in the remote Brazilian countryside, and have planned quite a large picture window for the second floor. I am very excited about this, as is my wife.
Overall glass dimensions will be 2.2m high x 2.7m wide x 10mm thick. If I´ve done my sums correctly, it will weigh around 190kg. Our plan is for a single glass pane, composed of a 4mm layer of Low-e glass (N-70) and a 6mm of common clear glass, laminated with a UV filtering film (Saflex).
This single-pane is to be installed in a hardwood frame (already installed), which has been provided with a rabbet 5cm wide and 2cm high on all four sides. 4cm wide hardwood retaining trim will be installed after the glass is in place. Bottom of the frame is about 3.5m from the ground, while the top is 5.7m high.
We still have some time to go before the glass will go in (indeed, the factory - which assures me the size is no problem for them - hasn´t yet started production). But already, I wanted to get some advice on best practice for the installation.
Big question: How´s the safest & surest way to do this? What are the customary ways for lifting such an unwieldy plate of glass into position? There is place beside the house to pull up a small crane truck (if I can find one to hire in one of the nearby towns).
Smaller questions: Given the size, are there any special considerations to bear in mind? How much play should I leave between the glass edge and the wooden frame? What kind of flexible spacers (if any) should I use to accommodate any eventual shifting of the wood with the seasons? Is it usual to run a bead of clear silicone around the frame before the glass is placed?
I´ll probably contract a local glazier to take the lead on this - but ours is one of but few 2-floor dwellings in the area, so there's not a lot of hoisting equipment or experience around. And from all too many disappointing experiences here so fare (carpenters, electricians, masons, etc), I´ve learned that a can-do attitude and a warm smile is no substitute for real expertise. And unlike easily repaired mishaps like mis-led wires or a mis-sized door-frames - getting this glass install wrong will be much more complicated to correct. So I want to be as ready as I can be.
Hope this is the right kind of forum to ask these questions. Thanks for any and all tips you can offer [including about the choice of glass - which can still be modified before fabrication starts].
I'm confused on your role in this project: are you the designer? the homeowner? or both?
Probably the wrong forum for this type of question, we're more of a arts and salary discussion forum.
It's not all that big, just a bit heavy. Four men could easily handle it if somebody knew what they were doing (suction cups, staging, etc.). Typically use plastic shims below to set the glass with even spacing in the frame into a liberal bed of silicone caulking, then caulk again once in place, then apply stops. If it's not tempered it's especially easy to break, just touching an edge can destroy it. You might want to set it in a temporary frame for handling.
Which brings up a really important point: don't design beyond the capacity of your labor to build. Or beyond your own knowledge if there is no expert help available. Unless of course you are willing to pay for on the job training.
Donna Sink: I am both home-owner and designer.
Miles Jaffe: Your point about recognizing the capacity of labor and ones own knowledge as a design constraint is well taken.
When we started the project, I was much more trusting of the knowledge and experience of local contractors. But as the project has moved forward, I've learned this trust was misplaced.
For example: despite quoting a price for construction of single-hung sash windows - I later learned that the carpenter has never heard of nor seen sash weights pulleys, or chains! Having already sourced the parts myself, I'm now spending lots of time researching and explaining the details of things I thought I could normally leave to the "professionals."
I've learned a lot in the process...but recognize there's lots I'm still ignorant of, which is frankly very scary. And so, your feedback on my questions re: glass installation is reassuring: it's a relief to know that a competent crew could probably install the pane in question without too much fuss. Where to find a crew like that - well, this is my problem to solve. I'm just glad that the problem itself is solvable.
Cardamom...where are you in Brazil?
About 5 hours from Sao Paulo....outside a small town called Pindorama.
It's not that remote a place... there is, after all, a good quality glass manufacturer about 70km away (in a regional city called Sao Jose do Rio Preto). But finding truly competent and creative contractors in our immediate vicinity remains a persistent challenge. For routine work, they have good practices... but for things out of the ordinary, it's hard for most to break out of old habits.
Cardamom,
There are many Architects practicing in San Paulo who might be able to help you with a glazer. You just need to reach out. I'm sure your revolutionary ideas of massive amounts of glass are not a first for the Town you are located in.
snooker-doodle-dandy: With a metro-population of over 20 million, of course, one can have anything done in Sao Paulo. And obviously, the size of my window isn't revolutionary by any measure. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
It's just that what I want is a larger single pane than I've seen installed anywhere nearby. Here, similar sized expanses I've encountered are composed of two or more narrower glass panels, with butt-jointed vertical seams. With this as local custom - generally on ground-floor installations - I'd begun to worry my design for a single-pane on the second floor would be a problem. Was very relieved to read here (thanks again, Miles Jaffe) that, indeed, a knowledgeable crew should be able to manage without any special equipment. (Probably, I can find such people via the glass factory - and have now reached out to them for same).
It's been a long project so far - and we still have a fair way to go. In retrospect, maybe I would have saved myself lots of headache by contracting an Architect from the start. But then, I'd have deprived myself the steep and humbling learning curve I've encountered. Until now, we've been lucky not to have had any major screw-ups, and my message here was part of maintaining that trend.
My inclination would be to set the glass in the frame prior to installing the frame in the building. Easier to set the glass horizontally, frame allows easier handling, frame installation becomes standardized.
If you don't want to bring a specialty glazing contractor from São Paulo or at least Ribeirão Preto, you will have to do it very carefully and assume the risk of breakage. Most small town glazers are not equipped or experienced to handle very large panes of glass.
You can scaffold up. Then you can use a lift truck or winch to lift the glass up to the scaffold. You will need 4 to 6 helpers to set and secure the glass in place. Depending on the interior layout, you might want to do an interior glazed installation instead of exterior.
Cardamon,
From what I see on Google Earth your looking at a sizable city, 300,000 +. Lots of 20 story buildings. Seem like you shouldn't have a problem finding someone to do the install. From your post I figured you were in some place like Zap, North Dakota with a population of less than ten.