Without sounding like Donald Trump, I want to talk about China.
I was offered a position at a young, international firm, 40-60 employees, working on high profile, interesting cultural/mixed use projects in Asia, Europe and North America. The position is based in Beijing and I was hoping I could get some advice on salary expectations, living tips, thoughts feeling etc...
I've got 6 years experience working in international design-focussed practices, and whilst I haven't worked in East Asia before, have worked in the Middle East for 2 years.
x-jla
Feb 4, 16 11:45 am
China is about to implode. I wouldn't change my life around in such a gloomy looking economy .
Victhor
Feb 4, 16 5:39 pm
Have you heard about air pollution problems and the climate of Beijing?, do you really want to live there? For an architect with your experience it should be easy to get a job like that one anywhere in China if you look for it.
gwharton
Feb 4, 16 6:12 pm
Beijing is not a fun place to live.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 4, 16 6:23 pm
Go work in WalMart, it's the next closest thing to being in China.
tduds
Feb 4, 16 6:52 pm
Unlike (I assume) the responses so far, I've actually worked and studied in China. I'll drop a response in here soon when I have some time to compose it.
Not that the responses above me are way off the mark...
gwharton
Feb 4, 16 6:59 pm
I have extensive experience working in Beijing. I was basically commuting there for two years. I wasn't living there full time, but several of my colleagues were, and I'm pretty familiar with their experiences as well as my own.
sameolddoctor
Feb 4, 16 7:06 pm
I think that most of the responses here are quite subjective.
"Not fun to live" - please define fun to live as opposed to a typical american small town. I think that Beijing is great to live if you are single. The air quality sucks most of the time, but the lifestyle can be quite awesome, and it is very well connected to other cities in Asia.
Miles, sorry to say you are sounding way off these days. I know Beijing is not the Hamptons, but come on!
Now the whole chinese economy aspect is a different story, but if the firm has other work in asia it could be ok.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 4, 16 7:14 pm
My point was that everything in WalMart comes from China. Sorry if you missed it.
tduds
Feb 4, 16 7:17 pm
But not everything in China ends up at Wal Mart.
Dangermouse
Feb 4, 16 9:08 pm
Capital is flying out of China. I wouldn't move there
LITS4FormZ
Feb 4, 16 9:27 pm
I've also lived/worked in Beijing. I'll put something together when I have time as well but, it's certainly an experience that will benefit your career and allow for great personal growth.
Just try to ignore the noise above...
midlander
Feb 5, 16 8:36 am
I still live and work in China (not BJ), happy to answer any questions if you message me.
When the pollution is bad, it really does affect you - like having a lingering head cold. Beijing tends to swing between terrible and beautiful more than the other big cities. However the traffic is always terrible. Do what you can to live in walking / biking distance to your office.
I don't know where you're coming from, but I found after being here a while things that seemed like inconveniences or absurdities are actually kind of endearing. If the work engages you, give it a try.
midlander
Feb 5, 16 8:47 am
Oh yeah, it's been all over the internet here that a few prominent LDIs missed payment on salaries this month, and many have cut bonuses or salaries. Don't work for one of them!
Based on your other post, it looks like you're considering the office of a prominent foreign designer with a reputation so I think you'll be ok, probably lower salary than you'd like though. Make sure they do the visa process by the books - a real employment visa - or you may run into trouble eventually. My guess is as the economy slows there will be more checks on that.
Liu shuang
Feb 5, 16 10:54 am
I am an architect from Beijing,now live in Berlin. My Spines collage used to get about 2000 euro/month who has 2 years working experiences in Spain. so good luck with u.
gwharton
Feb 5, 16 11:57 am
Don't get me wrong. I liked BJ and had some good times there. But I would never, ever, ever want to live there.
Evan Chakroff
Feb 5, 16 2:17 pm
buy a respirator and do it.
D0ub13d D
Feb 5, 16 3:47 pm
Wow, I forgot how all over the place the internet can be.
Pollution, commute, the imminent implosion of the Chinese economy aside - I guess a lot of it comes down to coin. What's a good wage. I've been offered RMB 22 grand, which seems low to me.
midlander
Feb 5, 16 6:12 pm
^monthly, right? yeah, thats low but totally in line with the norm here. Probably 1.5x what your Chinese colleagues with similar experience would make. You'd be able to live and even save money if you have no debts, but you'll probably resent it at some level. Plenty of non-archs here make much more at the same age.
A few years ago you could probably have negotiated up to 30-35k, but that will be harder now. There are simply very many others looking for jobs too. Boutique firms like what you're looking at pay less than corporate, and much less than what used to be possible at an LDI.
Evan Chakroff
Feb 5, 16 6:50 pm
22k RMB/month is pretty good for a small, cool firm. With cost of living in Beijing you should be able to save quite a bit, even if you do have loans or other financial obligations, and you'll be solidly middle class - i.e. able to afford a decent apartment, eat out at 'western' restaurants a few times a week, and buy all the IKEA furniture you want. Architect salaries vary incredibly widely in China, you could see offers anywhere from 4,000 to 60,000 rmb/mo. and up, depending on the type and size of firm, on your race and gender, and on your skills and experience, in that order. You may consider negotiating for benefits, rather than salary. More vacation days come in handy, and some firms offer a yearly flight home as part of their package (realizing that 'china fatigue' is a thing). If you have an offer on the table, don't worry too much about the future of the Chinese economy. Just go.
LITS4FormZ
Feb 5, 16 9:17 pm
China for me opened up opportunities that would have never been there had I stayed in the US. It's still paying dividends today and will for the foreseeable future.
I don't know if you've ever been there before, but living in Beijing is a grind. However, it's something that you grow to appreciate. 5000 years of a continuous culture is never short of nuances and history. You can let this experience open up a whole new world to explore. There are endless weekend trips you can take from Beijing and I'm convinced that living in Asia affords the best opportunity for travel. Beijing has a diverse enough housing stock to find anything you'd expect in any major city. With your salary you'll be fine and will be able to save quite a bit. Less starbucks = more tsingtao on the weekends. The expat scene has changed quite a bit over the last couple of years. It's gone completelty underground, it's an interesting juxtaposition of speakeasy foreigner bars in residential hutongs. Perhaps it's because the class of expat living in Beijing has risen since the slowdown and subsequent recovery. More people who are there now, choose to live in Beijing instead of pillaging for a few months and going home.
The offer of 22k/month is definitely in line for a small to mid-size international office when you are a local hire. Expat packages are extremely hard to come by these days and are really more a matter of luck than talent. Definitely ask for a trip home, that's almost standard in any good design office. I'd ask about other office benefits like dinner and taxi allowance if you work after 7pm. Most offices in BJ offer this small benefit.
China will not stop building and architects are not economists...I'd strongly recommend taking the leap.
Without sounding like Donald Trump, I want to talk about China.
I was offered a position at a young, international firm, 40-60 employees, working on high profile, interesting cultural/mixed use projects in Asia, Europe and North America. The position is based in Beijing and I was hoping I could get some advice on salary expectations, living tips, thoughts feeling etc...
I've got 6 years experience working in international design-focussed practices, and whilst I haven't worked in East Asia before, have worked in the Middle East for 2 years.
China is about to implode. I wouldn't change my life around in such a gloomy looking economy .
Have you heard about air pollution problems and the climate of Beijing?, do you really want to live there? For an architect with your experience it should be easy to get a job like that one anywhere in China if you look for it.
Beijing is not a fun place to live.
Go work in WalMart, it's the next closest thing to being in China.
Unlike (I assume) the responses so far, I've actually worked and studied in China. I'll drop a response in here soon when I have some time to compose it.
Not that the responses above me are way off the mark...
I have extensive experience working in Beijing. I was basically commuting there for two years. I wasn't living there full time, but several of my colleagues were, and I'm pretty familiar with their experiences as well as my own.
I think that most of the responses here are quite subjective.
"Not fun to live" - please define fun to live as opposed to a typical american small town. I think that Beijing is great to live if you are single. The air quality sucks most of the time, but the lifestyle can be quite awesome, and it is very well connected to other cities in Asia.
Miles, sorry to say you are sounding way off these days. I know Beijing is not the Hamptons, but come on!
Now the whole chinese economy aspect is a different story, but if the firm has other work in asia it could be ok.
My point was that everything in WalMart comes from China. Sorry if you missed it.
But not everything in China ends up at Wal Mart.
Capital is flying out of China. I wouldn't move there
I've also lived/worked in Beijing. I'll put something together when I have time as well but, it's certainly an experience that will benefit your career and allow for great personal growth.
Just try to ignore the noise above...
I still live and work in China (not BJ), happy to answer any questions if you message me.
When the pollution is bad, it really does affect you - like having a lingering head cold. Beijing tends to swing between terrible and beautiful more than the other big cities. However the traffic is always terrible. Do what you can to live in walking / biking distance to your office.
I don't know where you're coming from, but I found after being here a while things that seemed like inconveniences or absurdities are actually kind of endearing. If the work engages you, give it a try.
Oh yeah, it's been all over the internet here that a few prominent LDIs missed payment on salaries this month, and many have cut bonuses or salaries. Don't work for one of them!
Based on your other post, it looks like you're considering the office of a prominent foreign designer with a reputation so I think you'll be ok, probably lower salary than you'd like though. Make sure they do the visa process by the books - a real employment visa - or you may run into trouble eventually. My guess is as the economy slows there will be more checks on that.
I am an architect from Beijing,now live in Berlin. My Spines collage used to get about 2000 euro/month who has 2 years working experiences in Spain. so good luck with u.
Don't get me wrong. I liked BJ and had some good times there. But I would never, ever, ever want to live there.
buy a respirator and do it.
Wow, I forgot how all over the place the internet can be.
Pollution, commute, the imminent implosion of the Chinese economy aside - I guess a lot of it comes down to coin. What's a good wage. I've been offered RMB 22 grand, which seems low to me.
^monthly, right? yeah, thats low but totally in line with the norm here. Probably 1.5x what your Chinese colleagues with similar experience would make. You'd be able to live and even save money if you have no debts, but you'll probably resent it at some level. Plenty of non-archs here make much more at the same age.
A few years ago you could probably have negotiated up to 30-35k, but that will be harder now. There are simply very many others looking for jobs too. Boutique firms like what you're looking at pay less than corporate, and much less than what used to be possible at an LDI.
22k RMB/month is pretty good for a small, cool firm. With cost of living in Beijing you should be able to save quite a bit, even if you do have loans or other financial obligations, and you'll be solidly middle class - i.e. able to afford a decent apartment, eat out at 'western' restaurants a few times a week, and buy all the IKEA furniture you want. Architect salaries vary incredibly widely in China, you could see offers anywhere from 4,000 to 60,000 rmb/mo. and up, depending on the type and size of firm, on your race and gender, and on your skills and experience, in that order. You may consider negotiating for benefits, rather than salary. More vacation days come in handy, and some firms offer a yearly flight home as part of their package (realizing that 'china fatigue' is a thing). If you have an offer on the table, don't worry too much about the future of the Chinese economy. Just go.
China for me opened up opportunities that would have never been there had I stayed in the US. It's still paying dividends today and will for the foreseeable future.
I don't know if you've ever been there before, but living in Beijing is a grind. However, it's something that you grow to appreciate. 5000 years of a continuous culture is never short of nuances and history. You can let this experience open up a whole new world to explore. There are endless weekend trips you can take from Beijing and I'm convinced that living in Asia affords the best opportunity for travel. Beijing has a diverse enough housing stock to find anything you'd expect in any major city. With your salary you'll be fine and will be able to save quite a bit. Less starbucks = more tsingtao on the weekends. The expat scene has changed quite a bit over the last couple of years. It's gone completelty underground, it's an interesting juxtaposition of speakeasy foreigner bars in residential hutongs. Perhaps it's because the class of expat living in Beijing has risen since the slowdown and subsequent recovery. More people who are there now, choose to live in Beijing instead of pillaging for a few months and going home.
The offer of 22k/month is definitely in line for a small to mid-size international office when you are a local hire. Expat packages are extremely hard to come by these days and are really more a matter of luck than talent. Definitely ask for a trip home, that's almost standard in any good design office. I'd ask about other office benefits like dinner and taxi allowance if you work after 7pm. Most offices in BJ offer this small benefit.
China will not stop building and architects are not economists...I'd strongly recommend taking the leap.