They expect perfection and the lowest fee you can stomach.
They don't pay and threaten to sue when you stop work.
The negotiation of your fee is never settled as they are always looking for an reason to get you to provide more service for less money by extorting you with some angle.
My question is simple: Can we do something about them? Can we band together and create a place where we can check on them and if one of us needs to risk servicing them they do it with full disclosure and perhaps additional fee.
I see pros and cons on both sides, but my thought is that more information = better decisions.
Selfishly I would love to see these clients finding their fees increasing and fewer and fewer designers willing to service them as their reputations are finally put out in the light of day.
I don't want to whine in a forum about them, I want to do something about them.
(To those of you who would try to nudge us toward proactively avoiding all client conflicts through careful communication and contract negotiation, I'm with you, but we all know it doesn't always work that way and this thread is for those times.)
Thank you all in advance for the lively debate.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 10, 16 7:21 pm
With that strategy you will be perfectly safe because you won't have any clients.
Carrera
Jan 10, 16 7:45 pm
^Thinking the same thing.
When I was starting out I began thinking people were lying to me…they’d tell me something then later say something different…I started a copious phone log and wrote nearly every word people said to me (was driving me crazy)…one guy did it to me so often I decided to call him on it and read back what he said…he said again, “I never said that”, then finally I said “you are lying to me!”…he said “yeah, what are you going to do about it?”
OP, understand that what you are doing is a good thing for your piece of mind, but it all has no chance of controlling some of the people you are going to encounter….you need nothing for good people and nothing helps with bad people…put your energy into finding good people.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 10, 16 8:35 pm
sketch44 I'm with Mile and Carrera on this. someone may just be having a bad day,year, or there are internal politics on their side....
it's naive and stupid to think if you have lots of data about someone you can judge them accordingly. work on your social skills instead.
I could care less if someone is lying to me,not just in business but in personal situations as well. You can usually feel out the situation after a couple conversations and price your fee accordingly. I just don't have time for it.
to your list
1. Pre-design phase - part of the process is understanding what your client wants and how to present it to them. If you build the correct relationship, 9 time out of 10, if you have to revise everything beyond the hours etc...you can always ask for more money. I actually find this paragraph from you to present a pretty naive understanding of the process in general.
2. Construction Cost - don't design over the budget. If you have done it before you would actually know what costs more etc...change orders happen all the time, look for washes, credits...again your paragraph indicates you may not do this a lot. Its not that hard to tell a client what will cost more and if we open that wall up you may incur costs.
or if the economy collapses and scrap steel can't be sold off, I'm pretty sure you're client will understand - the economy collapsed.
3. CA - hourly is the best route with not to exceed, very common practice. or you just don't do more than what's in the contract or look for opporunities to make money. i.e. a sub can't get the shops right, charge for shops. tell client the knucklehead is going to cost client. of course if you're drawings suck - that is your fault.
4. photography - this isn't uncommon, some architects even stage it before they hand the project over.
sketch44
Jan 25, 16 8:10 pm
In addition to some sound client management advice, which one can never hear enough of, I am reminded that we as Architects are often prone to critique before creative thinking can take root.
There is an extremely narrow band of clients that my original post was targeted at solving. I indicated this explicitly in hopes of avoiding posts preaching the strategies that work with 95% of clients. I appreciate the advice given in those posts but was hoping for more discussion about the other 5%.
Who could argue that we shouldn't focus our energy into finding good people? That was kind of the original idea behind my post, that we could do this together. Of course, avoiding bad people is also a route to working with good people. As bad people suck away the precious time I have to work with good people.
Couple that with the reality that we don't talk about the clients we want to work with again with our competition and it makes more sense that we might share information on the clients we don't want to work with ... One story might not be enough, but when you hear the same story....
As for some of the other comments on my follow up post.
Even a project designed within the budget can easily have field changes etc that exceed the Architects fee. Understanding those risks I choose not to put that liability on my firm by believing that our drawings are perfect or that our clients are extremely generous.
Glad you agree on CA. If by "not to exceed" you mean a limit on my fee but no limit on my hours then I avoid that billing strategy. Maybe you've worked it successfully but it seems like a no-win situation. Either I break even for being efficient or I lose my shirt if the hours go over the limit. I would prefer a monthly lump sum unless there is some limit on hours spent. At least some of the time I will come out ahead in that scenario to make up for the times I do not.
Finally, I can't quite place my finger on it but there is something ironic about the terms naïve, stupid and social skills being used in the particular configuration of the previous post.... hopefully Olaf is good humored enough to smile at my observation.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 25, 16 8:26 pm
CA is always a minefield. On time, the client is tempted to cut it to save dough, leaving you with liability and no control. As a percentage of the fee it can easily be a black hole. I like the idea of tying CA to the duration of the project with a scheduled fee per month, fair for both parties, great idea.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 25, 16 8:57 pm
to get Paid for CA you first have to establish a reputation and mainly one of Quality Control. This is hard to do with first time clients or if younger than many of the contractors. I tend to loose my shirt the first round but get it back later. If you want me fully involved my CA = SS thru CD..........sketch44 you can alos go for GMP contracts for GC and during bid negotiations home in on it, the risk, which should be alleviated in the negotiations is the drawings may be very wronf somewhere.........construction costs can be controlled better when the architect is heavily involved in CA, convincing this to client is often hard.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 25, 16 8:58 pm
sketxh44 my comment is meant to make clear - data can only tell you so much about someone.
Carrera
Jan 25, 16 10:56 pm
Before you can implement a collaborative plan where architects work with each other, you first have to come up with a plan to overcome the fact that we all hate each other.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 25, 16 11:06 pm
Carrera, I don't hate you. But I'd cut your throat for a dog house commission. Nothing personal, you understand - it's just business.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 25, 16 11:30 pm
.
sketch44
Jan 26, 16 9:32 pm
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. =)
arantiacus
Jan 27, 16 12:09 am
...in the end...clients get the architecture they deserve.
We've all had them.
They expect perfection and the lowest fee you can stomach.
They don't pay and threaten to sue when you stop work.
The negotiation of your fee is never settled as they are always looking for an reason to get you to provide more service for less money by extorting you with some angle.
My question is simple: Can we do something about them? Can we band together and create a place where we can check on them and if one of us needs to risk servicing them they do it with full disclosure and perhaps additional fee.
I see pros and cons on both sides, but my thought is that more information = better decisions.
Selfishly I would love to see these clients finding their fees increasing and fewer and fewer designers willing to service them as their reputations are finally put out in the light of day.
I don't want to whine in a forum about them, I want to do something about them.
(To those of you who would try to nudge us toward proactively avoiding all client conflicts through careful communication and contract negotiation, I'm with you, but we all know it doesn't always work that way and this thread is for those times.)
Thank you all in advance for the lively debate.
With that strategy you will be perfectly safe because you won't have any clients.
^Thinking the same thing.
When I was starting out I began thinking people were lying to me…they’d tell me something then later say something different…I started a copious phone log and wrote nearly every word people said to me (was driving me crazy)…one guy did it to me so often I decided to call him on it and read back what he said…he said again, “I never said that”, then finally I said “you are lying to me!”…he said “yeah, what are you going to do about it?”
OP, understand that what you are doing is a good thing for your piece of mind, but it all has no chance of controlling some of the people you are going to encounter….you need nothing for good people and nothing helps with bad people…put your energy into finding good people.
sketch44 I'm with Mile and Carrera on this. someone may just be having a bad day,year, or there are internal politics on their side....
it's naive and stupid to think if you have lots of data about someone you can judge them accordingly. work on your social skills instead.
I could care less if someone is lying to me,not just in business but in personal situations as well. You can usually feel out the situation after a couple conversations and price your fee accordingly. I just don't have time for it.
to your list
1. Pre-design phase - part of the process is understanding what your client wants and how to present it to them. If you build the correct relationship, 9 time out of 10, if you have to revise everything beyond the hours etc...you can always ask for more money. I actually find this paragraph from you to present a pretty naive understanding of the process in general.
2. Construction Cost - don't design over the budget. If you have done it before you would actually know what costs more etc...change orders happen all the time, look for washes, credits...again your paragraph indicates you may not do this a lot. Its not that hard to tell a client what will cost more and if we open that wall up you may incur costs.
or if the economy collapses and scrap steel can't be sold off, I'm pretty sure you're client will understand - the economy collapsed.
3. CA - hourly is the best route with not to exceed, very common practice. or you just don't do more than what's in the contract or look for opporunities to make money. i.e. a sub can't get the shops right, charge for shops. tell client the knucklehead is going to cost client. of course if you're drawings suck - that is your fault.
4. photography - this isn't uncommon, some architects even stage it before they hand the project over.
In addition to some sound client management advice, which one can never hear enough of, I am reminded that we as Architects are often prone to critique before creative thinking can take root.
There is an extremely narrow band of clients that my original post was targeted at solving. I indicated this explicitly in hopes of avoiding posts preaching the strategies that work with 95% of clients. I appreciate the advice given in those posts but was hoping for more discussion about the other 5%.
Who could argue that we shouldn't focus our energy into finding good people? That was kind of the original idea behind my post, that we could do this together. Of course, avoiding bad people is also a route to working with good people. As bad people suck away the precious time I have to work with good people.
Couple that with the reality that we don't talk about the clients we want to work with again with our competition and it makes more sense that we might share information on the clients we don't want to work with ... One story might not be enough, but when you hear the same story....
As for some of the other comments on my follow up post.
Even a project designed within the budget can easily have field changes etc that exceed the Architects fee. Understanding those risks I choose not to put that liability on my firm by believing that our drawings are perfect or that our clients are extremely generous.
Glad you agree on CA. If by "not to exceed" you mean a limit on my fee but no limit on my hours then I avoid that billing strategy. Maybe you've worked it successfully but it seems like a no-win situation. Either I break even for being efficient or I lose my shirt if the hours go over the limit. I would prefer a monthly lump sum unless there is some limit on hours spent. At least some of the time I will come out ahead in that scenario to make up for the times I do not.
Finally, I can't quite place my finger on it but there is something ironic about the terms naïve, stupid and social skills being used in the particular configuration of the previous post.... hopefully Olaf is good humored enough to smile at my observation.
CA is always a minefield. On time, the client is tempted to cut it to save dough, leaving you with liability and no control. As a percentage of the fee it can easily be a black hole. I like the idea of tying CA to the duration of the project with a scheduled fee per month, fair for both parties, great idea.
to get Paid for CA you first have to establish a reputation and mainly one of Quality Control. This is hard to do with first time clients or if younger than many of the contractors. I tend to loose my shirt the first round but get it back later. If you want me fully involved my CA = SS thru CD..........sketch44 you can alos go for GMP contracts for GC and during bid negotiations home in on it, the risk, which should be alleviated in the negotiations is the drawings may be very wronf somewhere.........construction costs can be controlled better when the architect is heavily involved in CA, convincing this to client is often hard.
sketxh44 my comment is meant to make clear - data can only tell you so much about someone.
Before you can implement a collaborative plan where architects work with each other, you first have to come up with a plan to overcome the fact that we all hate each other.
Carrera, I don't hate you. But I'd cut your throat for a dog house commission. Nothing personal, you understand - it's just business.
.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. =)
...in the end...clients get the architecture they deserve.