Hoping for some insight and wisdom from y'all - maybe you can try putting yourself in my situation and speak on behalf of that - Too Long; Didn't Read is at the bottom:
I want to work in NYC. I don't currently live there and can only stay on a friend's couch for five or six days at a time. My goal is to get into an M.Arch program at Princeton, Harvard, MIT, Penn or Cooper, and I believe working in NYC prior to applying will give me more confidence in my applications (because I will have had a chance to visit these campuses first and meet faculty, and possibly even a chance to work for one of their faculty members before I apply *cough*Diller*cough*).
I don't have an NAAB accredited degree, but have nearly two years of experience with a corporate firm away from the east coast, where I currently live and work. I have high honors from all of my professional references, where they essentially couldn't say anything undesirable to a potential interviewer. Obviously this is crucial to overcome the competition when a firm has 20 similarly qualified candidates interviewing for the same positon.
My undergraduate design portfolio is well composed and graphically very nice, but lacks depth in the project's content (possibly because I didn't attend a B.Arch program where there are more studio semesters). So someone examining it will flip through and see some great diagrams, modes of abstract thinking, and presentation of building sections, but they won't see a lot of cause-and-effect analysis, such as "what did this particular design decision cause as a result? I see you made this decision, but how can you improve it further?" - it's more conceptual and superficial because my undergraduate studios weren't as intensive as a B.Arch or M.Arch's. My professional portfolio seems insignicant to me because my experience at my current job is just as an entry-level designer, and that's what I'd be applying for at these high-profile offices in NYC, where the job duties are basically to be the bottom feeder on a project team and be as productive as possible in Revit or Rhino (the newfound CAD monkey).
I've applied or shown interest in about 5 of the most competitive offices there, and haven't received an offer yet. Most of them don't actually have job openings posted, but I've never been one to concern myself with that - I've always thought about the saying, "if you see it posted online, the position has already been filled". So my technique currently consists of reaching out to any personal connections I have there with my resume and portfolio via email, to have them keep me in their thoughts in the event a suitable opening comes about.
I believe my level of qualification is plentiful in NYC so it seems these offices would prefer to hire local applicants in that case, or applicants with an alma mater more familiar to the region.
Now, most importantly to my predicament, I've gotten an offer in NYC from someone with a small office that exclusively designs interior renovations, and this wont fulfill my goal of gaining prominent experience before applying for an M.Arch at the schools I mentioned. It will certainly fulfill my goal of getting a foot-in-the-door in New York, but I would be actively looking for another offer from one of the most competitive offices I alluded to above.
To add, I REALLY want to move to NYC. Living there is an incentive to me in general. As in, everyday I wake up in my current city, I regret not being in NYC instead. Moving to NYC would mean I'd have to sacrifice a lot as well, so I'd be downgrading the luxuries of my current life just to get a shoddy apt with a commute. This sacrifice is justified to me because I'd simply feel happier living there, and I think that the collective industry there could benefit my career more than any other city. But I don't think it'd be wise to derail my career by moving there without a job lined up, only to work at a record store or restaurant to help pay my bills for the first few months.
TL;DR: My current job is better than the one offer I have in NYC, so I'm not very excited about it. The jobs I want in NYC are more exciting than my current job, so I want them very much. Ideally I'd like an offer from them before I move to NYC so I can eliminate as much risk as possible, but this doesn't happen for everyone so I'm considering the thought of accepting a less desirable offer so that I can permanently be put in the NYC market, in turn giving me a higher probability of landing a job with one of the firms I'm dreaming of.
Can you state your opinion on what you might do in my shoes?
Thanks for reading!
midlander
Dec 7, 15 4:08 am
go for it.
there's no reason to overthink this. it sounds like you're young, uncommitted to what you're doing and looking for a change.
I wouldn't expect that this works out as you hope or plan, but you'll certainly get something of value. probably not money, but it doesn't sound like that's your concern at this point.
But why not just keep working where you're at and directly apply to grad school at schools in NYC? Your list includes only 1, which seems strange given your strong interest moving there. You'll probably find it easier to get a job at a NY firm once you're in school there and have classmates / faculty who can connect you to the firms.
I made a similar move a few years ago, then quickly left NY for better opportunities elsewhere. Don't regret it at all - led me into something much better than where I started. Sometimes you need to try something without knowing how it will work out.
David Cole, AIA
Dec 7, 15 7:33 am
What midlander said. I lived and worked in NYC for five years, and so far they've been the most rewarding years of my career. It comes at a pretty heavy cost to your quality of life, though. That's fine when you're young and starting out, but I eventually reached a point where I got tired of living like a college student at the age of 40.
Note that a huge portion of architectural work in NYC involves renovation projects and tenant improvement work. Like NYC in general, it's messy and complicated work but it can be incredibly rewarding. If you only want to work on new ground-up construction, you might be better off in another city with a lot more available land to build on, such as Los Angeles.
How did you select your potential grad school programs? There are lots of reputable programs in NYC besides Cooper, and not all of them cost a fortune.
N0Tjones
Dec 7, 15 11:10 am
David Cole: I've based my list on schools that have faculty members who interest me and can sort of realign my approach to design by way of their intellectual/theoretical influence, and most important to me is the level of interdisciplinary collaboration required for my prospective thesis project. Can City College or Parsons hold water to the other programs I mentioned? I know their guest faculty is similar, but their foundational principles and resources (including tenured faculty)? Also Pratt seems to be Columbia's insignificantly cheaper and forgotten cousin in the grand scheme of things, but definitely correct me if I'm wrong! I'm forgoing Columbia specifically because schools like Princeton, Penn and MIT + Harvard are at least equal in value (to me) while costing less, and are shoe-ins to NYC's professional market just as much. I also think it would be too distracting for me to have to study in New York - I'd rather be in a city that's less exciting so I'm not distracted with so much external stimuli in general while trying to achieve my goals in academia.
I'm more interested in working on new ground-up construction than interiors, which is why I want to work for the larger corporate/competitive offices because they have plenty of international work going up on vacant sites around the world as well as Hudson Yards' towers and Roosevelt Island's new development (as well as downtown Brooklyn). Essentially these are the types of projects I hope to work on when I'm out of school, so I'd like to get some preliminary experience on them if I'm able to. I don't hope to work on interior renovations my whole life or even as a practicing architect later in NYC, but of course I may have to force myself to if that's the only work available.
midlander: what I'm worried about is that accepting this offer wont be progressing my professional abilities at all. As in, my current job gives me better experience than this new offer would. But my real goal is to get a better job in NYC than the one I have now. So like I said, I'm wondering if it's more beneficial for me to take the risk.
Does anyone have experience at the larger and highly competitive firms in NYC? If so, it would help if you could offer your insight whether my assumed trajectory is reasonable (planting roots in NYC while working on interior renovations in hopes that my status of living there will help me land a job at one of the larger offices).
I'm sort of looking for someone to say, "no, that wont help you at all and those firms wont care about that experience. just stay where you are and apply online until one of those firms sends you an offer back, or move on if they dont", or "yes, thats a good idea, its always easier to get a job with them if you're already living there. they do prefer to hire locally whenever possible, especially at the entry-level"
null pointer
Dec 7, 15 11:16 am
Does anyone have experience at the larger and highly competitive firms in NYC?
Totally do-able. The best architects I know here started doing smaller work and graduated onto larger firms. It's really easy to get trapped into role of drafting drone at the larger firms in the city if you don't happen to have anything unique to offer.
N0Tjones
Dec 7, 15 11:27 am
null pointer: thank you for the wise words
3tk
Dec 7, 15 11:27 am
Move, get a job doing something at level above renderings and drafting (be able to draft AND design, solving technical issues), then get a position above 'cad monkey' at a firm you want to explore. Like you know, most firms have a line of people wanting to work - providing actual value besides rendering/cad monkey level is essential to not only land a job where you want, but to be at a level where the pay is decent and work hours reasonable. This may mean that you want to put another year where you are, but every firm prefers to hire locally (partly b/c the code and detailing differs by location, partly b/c they know you won't have to move).
Note that the market is a bit shaky at the moment - things could go in either way.
midlander
Dec 7, 15 7:29 pm
OP, networking is such a big part of the process for finding good jobs that you really will benefit from being in the city you want to work in. It's not only a matter of having a local address - you'll need to get out and interact with other architects and learn the local politics of the profession. The people you get to know will be your guide towards finding that next job. Your work reputation matters as much or more than your portfolio for most positions, which is why its so hard to get even an interview from cold-posting an application.
This isn't necessarilly a fast process though. If your end goal is to go to one of the grad programs you've listed, I'm not sure moving to NY to work your way up the heirarchy of firms is going to help a lot. You will certainly have the opportunity to work in ny during and after grad school if that's what you want, and it might be just as fast.
BR.TN
Dec 8, 15 1:16 pm
N0Tjones, I agree with the sound advice from those above, but it definitely depends on your financial situation too at the moment. If you don't have much in your savings account (not sure what a qualifiable number would be) it might be a huge risk and you could find yourself working odd jobs on the weekends to pay your bills...not the way any architect should be forced to live ya know. I guess that aspect just depends on how cheap you can find an apartment in the area though, and roommates, etc.
Networking is obviously really important like midlander said, surely it could be the most important factor in landing interviews. Since you have an non-NAAB undergrad in architecture you could contact your alma mater to release a list of alumni living and working in NYC. You might be surprised where some of them work or who they know! And try reaching out to them with an earnest inquiry/email or something that explains your cause and ambitions and I'm sure they'd be able to relate to you.
Where do you currently work though? You said "away from the east coast" so I'll simply assume you have a relatively low cost of living since its not NYC/BOS/DC...might be beneficial to just stay put and try to make the most of it
N0Tjones
Dec 8, 15 5:28 pm
Thank you all so much for your insight! This will certainly help me now that I can take the rest of the week/weekend to consider this transition.
Hoping for some insight and wisdom from y'all - maybe you can try putting yourself in my situation and speak on behalf of that - Too Long; Didn't Read is at the bottom:
I want to work in NYC. I don't currently live there and can only stay on a friend's couch for five or six days at a time. My goal is to get into an M.Arch program at Princeton, Harvard, MIT, Penn or Cooper, and I believe working in NYC prior to applying will give me more confidence in my applications (because I will have had a chance to visit these campuses first and meet faculty, and possibly even a chance to work for one of their faculty members before I apply *cough*Diller*cough*).
I don't have an NAAB accredited degree, but have nearly two years of experience with a corporate firm away from the east coast, where I currently live and work. I have high honors from all of my professional references, where they essentially couldn't say anything undesirable to a potential interviewer. Obviously this is crucial to overcome the competition when a firm has 20 similarly qualified candidates interviewing for the same positon.
My undergraduate design portfolio is well composed and graphically very nice, but lacks depth in the project's content (possibly because I didn't attend a B.Arch program where there are more studio semesters). So someone examining it will flip through and see some great diagrams, modes of abstract thinking, and presentation of building sections, but they won't see a lot of cause-and-effect analysis, such as "what did this particular design decision cause as a result? I see you made this decision, but how can you improve it further?" - it's more conceptual and superficial because my undergraduate studios weren't as intensive as a B.Arch or M.Arch's. My professional portfolio seems insignicant to me because my experience at my current job is just as an entry-level designer, and that's what I'd be applying for at these high-profile offices in NYC, where the job duties are basically to be the bottom feeder on a project team and be as productive as possible in Revit or Rhino (the newfound CAD monkey).
I've applied or shown interest in about 5 of the most competitive offices there, and haven't received an offer yet. Most of them don't actually have job openings posted, but I've never been one to concern myself with that - I've always thought about the saying, "if you see it posted online, the position has already been filled". So my technique currently consists of reaching out to any personal connections I have there with my resume and portfolio via email, to have them keep me in their thoughts in the event a suitable opening comes about.
I believe my level of qualification is plentiful in NYC so it seems these offices would prefer to hire local applicants in that case, or applicants with an alma mater more familiar to the region.
====================================================================
Now, most importantly to my predicament, I've gotten an offer in NYC from someone with a small office that exclusively designs interior renovations, and this wont fulfill my goal of gaining prominent experience before applying for an M.Arch at the schools I mentioned. It will certainly fulfill my goal of getting a foot-in-the-door in New York, but I would be actively looking for another offer from one of the most competitive offices I alluded to above.
To add, I REALLY want to move to NYC. Living there is an incentive to me in general. As in, everyday I wake up in my current city, I regret not being in NYC instead. Moving to NYC would mean I'd have to sacrifice a lot as well, so I'd be downgrading the luxuries of my current life just to get a shoddy apt with a commute. This sacrifice is justified to me because I'd simply feel happier living there, and I think that the collective industry there could benefit my career more than any other city. But I don't think it'd be wise to derail my career by moving there without a job lined up, only to work at a record store or restaurant to help pay my bills for the first few months.
TL;DR: My current job is better than the one offer I have in NYC, so I'm not very excited about it. The jobs I want in NYC are more exciting than my current job, so I want them very much. Ideally I'd like an offer from them before I move to NYC so I can eliminate as much risk as possible, but this doesn't happen for everyone so I'm considering the thought of accepting a less desirable offer so that I can permanently be put in the NYC market, in turn giving me a higher probability of landing a job with one of the firms I'm dreaming of.
Can you state your opinion on what you might do in my shoes?
Thanks for reading!
go for it.
there's no reason to overthink this. it sounds like you're young, uncommitted to what you're doing and looking for a change.
I wouldn't expect that this works out as you hope or plan, but you'll certainly get something of value. probably not money, but it doesn't sound like that's your concern at this point.
But why not just keep working where you're at and directly apply to grad school at schools in NYC? Your list includes only 1, which seems strange given your strong interest moving there. You'll probably find it easier to get a job at a NY firm once you're in school there and have classmates / faculty who can connect you to the firms.
I made a similar move a few years ago, then quickly left NY for better opportunities elsewhere. Don't regret it at all - led me into something much better than where I started. Sometimes you need to try something without knowing how it will work out.
What midlander said. I lived and worked in NYC for five years, and so far they've been the most rewarding years of my career. It comes at a pretty heavy cost to your quality of life, though. That's fine when you're young and starting out, but I eventually reached a point where I got tired of living like a college student at the age of 40.
Note that a huge portion of architectural work in NYC involves renovation projects and tenant improvement work. Like NYC in general, it's messy and complicated work but it can be incredibly rewarding. If you only want to work on new ground-up construction, you might be better off in another city with a lot more available land to build on, such as Los Angeles.
How did you select your potential grad school programs? There are lots of reputable programs in NYC besides Cooper, and not all of them cost a fortune.
David Cole: I've based my list on schools that have faculty members who interest me and can sort of realign my approach to design by way of their intellectual/theoretical influence, and most important to me is the level of interdisciplinary collaboration required for my prospective thesis project. Can City College or Parsons hold water to the other programs I mentioned? I know their guest faculty is similar, but their foundational principles and resources (including tenured faculty)? Also Pratt seems to be Columbia's insignificantly cheaper and forgotten cousin in the grand scheme of things, but definitely correct me if I'm wrong! I'm forgoing Columbia specifically because schools like Princeton, Penn and MIT + Harvard are at least equal in value (to me) while costing less, and are shoe-ins to NYC's professional market just as much. I also think it would be too distracting for me to have to study in New York - I'd rather be in a city that's less exciting so I'm not distracted with so much external stimuli in general while trying to achieve my goals in academia.
I'm more interested in working on new ground-up construction than interiors, which is why I want to work for the larger corporate/competitive offices because they have plenty of international work going up on vacant sites around the world as well as Hudson Yards' towers and Roosevelt Island's new development (as well as downtown Brooklyn). Essentially these are the types of projects I hope to work on when I'm out of school, so I'd like to get some preliminary experience on them if I'm able to. I don't hope to work on interior renovations my whole life or even as a practicing architect later in NYC, but of course I may have to force myself to if that's the only work available.
midlander: what I'm worried about is that accepting this offer wont be progressing my professional abilities at all. As in, my current job gives me better experience than this new offer would. But my real goal is to get a better job in NYC than the one I have now. So like I said, I'm wondering if it's more beneficial for me to take the risk.
Does anyone have experience at the larger and highly competitive firms in NYC? If so, it would help if you could offer your insight whether my assumed trajectory is reasonable (planting roots in NYC while working on interior renovations in hopes that my status of living there will help me land a job at one of the larger offices).
I'm sort of looking for someone to say, "no, that wont help you at all and those firms wont care about that experience. just stay where you are and apply online until one of those firms sends you an offer back, or move on if they dont", or "yes, thats a good idea, its always easier to get a job with them if you're already living there. they do prefer to hire locally whenever possible, especially at the entry-level"
Does anyone have experience at the larger and highly competitive firms in NYC?
Totally do-able. The best architects I know here started doing smaller work and graduated onto larger firms. It's really easy to get trapped into role of drafting drone at the larger firms in the city if you don't happen to have anything unique to offer.
null pointer: thank you for the wise words
Move, get a job doing something at level above renderings and drafting (be able to draft AND design, solving technical issues), then get a position above 'cad monkey' at a firm you want to explore. Like you know, most firms have a line of people wanting to work - providing actual value besides rendering/cad monkey level is essential to not only land a job where you want, but to be at a level where the pay is decent and work hours reasonable. This may mean that you want to put another year where you are, but every firm prefers to hire locally (partly b/c the code and detailing differs by location, partly b/c they know you won't have to move).
Note that the market is a bit shaky at the moment - things could go in either way.
OP, networking is such a big part of the process for finding good jobs that you really will benefit from being in the city you want to work in. It's not only a matter of having a local address - you'll need to get out and interact with other architects and learn the local politics of the profession. The people you get to know will be your guide towards finding that next job. Your work reputation matters as much or more than your portfolio for most positions, which is why its so hard to get even an interview from cold-posting an application.
This isn't necessarilly a fast process though. If your end goal is to go to one of the grad programs you've listed, I'm not sure moving to NY to work your way up the heirarchy of firms is going to help a lot. You will certainly have the opportunity to work in ny during and after grad school if that's what you want, and it might be just as fast.
N0Tjones, I agree with the sound advice from those above, but it definitely depends on your financial situation too at the moment. If you don't have much in your savings account (not sure what a qualifiable number would be) it might be a huge risk and you could find yourself working odd jobs on the weekends to pay your bills...not the way any architect should be forced to live ya know. I guess that aspect just depends on how cheap you can find an apartment in the area though, and roommates, etc.
Networking is obviously really important like midlander said, surely it could be the most important factor in landing interviews. Since you have an non-NAAB undergrad in architecture you could contact your alma mater to release a list of alumni living and working in NYC. You might be surprised where some of them work or who they know! And try reaching out to them with an earnest inquiry/email or something that explains your cause and ambitions and I'm sure they'd be able to relate to you.
Where do you currently work though? You said "away from the east coast" so I'll simply assume you have a relatively low cost of living since its not NYC/BOS/DC...might be beneficial to just stay put and try to make the most of it
Thank you all so much for your insight! This will certainly help me now that I can take the rest of the week/weekend to consider this transition.