I've been told that there are grasses that can resist the foot traffic that leads to this existing bald spot. Frankly, I don't believe it. Any suggestions?
It should be noted that the majority of visitors to this park do the following: come up the stairs, step onto the grass, turn 360d. to see the entire enclosure, and go back down the stairs. The grass 6' beyond the top of the stairs barely sees any traffic by comparison.
I welcome any expert advice, as well as any snarky comments about landscape architects and marijuana.
Non Sequitur
Jul 13, 15 9:25 am
Donna, your problem would be best solved by placing a small section of paving stones, effectively extending the existing landing at the top of the stairs. I don't think I've heard of a grass resilient to the trampling of fat tourists.
On another note, here's a picture of a squirrel enjoying a delicious pint of Guinness.
Donna Sink
Jul 13, 15 9:30 am
Thank you, Non Seq, for both the Guinness and the squirrel. That was of course my initial suggestion, because the grass that will resist fat tourists likely hasn't evolved yet...but that suggestion was rejected.
It must be grass at this location, no hardscape.
shellarchitect
Jul 13, 15 9:35 am
fake grass (synthetic turf)?
JeromeS
Jul 13, 15 9:52 am
Why not a paver like this?
Marc Miller
Jul 13, 15 9:57 am
Based on your description of how people use that spot the soil is likely very compacted, which would make it hard for anything to grow in that location. I'm also guessing this is the case given that based in photo it appears that a slight depression has developed over time, resulting in a puddle- also bad.
Donna Sink
Jul 13, 15 10:38 am
Both those things are true, Marc. Twice in the last three years we've replaced the grass at this location, once with sod and once with seed, both times with a grass that is supposed to be hardy.
JeromeS, the grass pavers tend to have the same problem with excessive traffic in one spot - so then I'd have a bald grid spot rather than a bald earth spot.
I'm going to try laying a piece of synthetic turf elsewhere in the lawn and monitor it over a few months to see how it looks. I hate the idea of a hard edge between the synthetic and the natural grass, but that might be the best option.
3tk
Jul 13, 15 12:07 pm
No lawn type grass would survive there (maybe crabgrass...). A few stone pavers might look nice. Synthetic grass will look odd when the lawn changes color, but if the high visit times are when the lawn is green, it might not be so bad.
Volunteer
Jul 13, 15 12:30 pm
Need something like an armilary, water feature, statuary, flower beds, fountain, arbor, kiddie play thingys, covered seating area to entice people to spend time in the area. Why no cushions on the seats? The butt-ugly gabions need to go, both in the walls and benches. Limestone pavers in the bare area and/or a gravel walkway to the points of interest in the garden may be the only option.
x-jla
Jul 13, 15 12:45 pm
There is a grid like material used to make grass paths ADA...badically reinforced turf...It would probably work similar to the permeable pavers that Jerome suggested but be less visable...
You would still need drain water for those solutions. So perhaps a structural soil underneath either one would be beneficial.
Donna Sink
Jul 13, 15 1:47 pm
JeromeS I've never installed a pave-grass product like you posted on my own projects, but I've seen many of them installed and they tend to be very uneven, as the grass still can't hold up to repeated traffic in one spot.
jla-x that Core-Grass system might be worth trying. It is installed on the levee near my house, a strip about 4' wide. There is definitely a bare spot 12" wide right where everyone jogs, but overall across the width of the material the grass holds up pretty well.
I think for the moment I'll suggest a pad of the Core-Grass with the hardier grass species we used earlier AND to replace the soil in the area at the same time - Marc, the soil was replaced at least once, maybe twice, in previous repairs, though not with structural soil, IIRC.
It won't be an inexpensive solution but it will keep the continuous lawn appearance that the artist wants. Third time's the charm, I hope - if this grass replacement doesn't work, then we'll ask again if we can pursue a stone or wood landing pad instead of grass...
cool...thanks Donna! How in the world does one begin to get these kinds of land art projects with museums? It would be really cool if you could provide some insight...
senjohnblutarsky
Jul 13, 15 3:08 pm
Have no idea whose work it is, but you could try something along these lines.
JLC-1
Jul 13, 15 3:24 pm
you would have to come to Colorado for the other recommendations
boy in a well
Jul 13, 15 3:44 pm
well, your seats go all the way around, so if people used them, the grass would be like this around the perimeter: maybe Non's extended landing goes all the way around, becomes visually a part of the wall/bench aperture and not a little tongue/landing breaking the line/edge of the grass. might get people to walk abit, like V said.
yes, i would like to get high.
x-jla
Jul 13, 15 3:47 pm
reminds me of a quote I read recently...
"A lawn is nature under totalitarian rule"
x-jla
Jul 13, 15 3:49 pm
just let the dead spot be...the grass dosent like it there...
Volunteer
Jul 13, 15 4:31 pm
The existing grass is no prize winner, either. Check out the sites of Luciano Giubbilei and Vladimir Djurovic for examples on minimalist gardens. Why would you have benches with no possibility of shade? Are there even any trees to lie under and read a book? How about some cable-stayed fabric umbrella system to provide some shelter in a corner of the park along with some chairs and tables? The bare spot is visitors saying "nothing here, let's go home".
3tk
Jul 13, 15 5:51 pm
The grass is dead b/c people are stepping on it, breaking it's structure - the compaction is a small part of it (it will cause the dimple). structural soil won't fix it, and geotextiles/webs/etc won't help much either - they're meant for infrequent traffic (fire lanes, stadium overflow parking, etc) where the grass has a chance to regrow.
Irrigate it, apply nutrient boost, root growth hormone, and limit traffic. Stretching the top landing out may be the most elegant solution.
Peter Normand
Jul 13, 15 11:52 pm
I would try bent grass, it is commonly used in putting greens, also soil conditions are key, I would dig out the soil and replace it with a mix of compost and sand, clay will compact and kill the grass roots by depriving them of air. placing a grid of small perforated pvc pipe down 3-4 inches under the problem area can help with air and drainage, roots need to breathe
Over and OUT
Peter N
Peter Normand
Jul 14, 15 12:02 am
also reinstalling turf may be something to make as part of the landscape maintenance budget, the concert pavilion in Chicago's millennium park has new turf several times each year. but soil remediation for drainage up to 18" deep a grid of pipe for air and drainage 4-5" below the surface might do. well drained grass will need more irrigation in a drought
Volunteer
Jul 14, 15 7:54 am
Check with the nicest maintained local golf course. They are experts in grasses siutable for your area and drainage systems as mentioned above.
Donna Sink
Jul 14, 15 9:27 am
Volunteer, this is an art piece (it's actually here at the Museum on loan, LOL. The art world is weird.). So umbrellas, etc. have no place in the artistic intent, which is actually very cool but takes some explanation; my 30-second tour guide rap is: The piece is called Park of the Laments, it's a highly rigorous enclosed geometric space within an otherwise wild and somewhat Romantic landscape park. one enters by descending a long solemn ramp, through a dark tunnel, and ascending out again into this rigidly controlled yet serene environment. The piece is about global conflict and the rocks in the gabion represent the individuals killed by such conflict despite a collective desire for peace within a chaotic world.
So, jaunty umbrellas would be rather out of place. However, jla-x, your comment about lawn being landscape under totalitarianism is weirdly appropriate.
The Modernist in me wants to leave the bald spot, but the grounds crew feels it makes them look ineffective. The artist doesn't want an extended hardscape landing pad to interrupt the rigid geometry of enclosed rectangles. So, we continue chasing the ideal in a material world, which is what architecture always is for me.
Since I'm rambling already, can anyone guess why this project reminds me of this ceramic teacup?
Volunteer
Jul 14, 15 9:41 am
Donna, I don't think "rigidly controlled" and "serene" go together very well. The "umbrella" I was thinking of is like a small scale version of the fabric structure in La Defense in Paris, but several mature trees would serve the same purpose. There are some beautiful memorial parks around that reaffirm life in a transcendent way. This ain't one of them. At least someone should take care of the grass that is not flattened and trim the shrubs. Good luck!
Donna Sink
Jul 14, 15 9:46 am
Respectfully, Volunteer, I don't think you can make the judgement that this park "doesn't reaffirm life" unless you experience it in totality of the artist's vision, which means in this setting, with this arrival sequence, with the intended aural cues (there's a reason the tunnel is all concrete with a 7' ceiling), experiencing the weather of the day and the effect of the plantings for the season in which you visit.
This isn't a place that represents with photographs - which I would argue is true for the majority of architecture, too.
Volunteer
Jul 14, 15 10:02 am
Well, they missed the rock thingy as well. Dry stacked stone walls common to New England would be quite beautiful. People also build mortared stone walls with the "look" of dry-stacked, which would probably be called for here for additional stability. As far as walking through a 7 foot high concrete tunnel to get there, I experience quite enough grimness when I look at the world's news each day.
Miles Jaffe
Jul 14, 15 11:36 pm
Two galvanized steel posts with a chain across should keep those pesky visitors off the grass.
A sign that says MINED and a bunch of little flags all over the scrubby lawn would work too.
,,,,
Jul 15, 15 1:09 am
Maybe work this into the context of the art piece as collateral damage by demarcating with some thin metal lines embedded in the ground so that it looks intentional.
Donna Sink
Jul 15, 15 8:31 am
Nice, Calc. However most artists I know are extremely resistant to this kind of suggestion about their work, so I've learned not to make them. ;-)
Volunteer
Jul 15, 15 10:17 am
Let the artiste read this thread. Honestly, by your own admission that the people come to the head of the stairs turn around and go back, indicates that the park, as currently designed, is a goner as a concept.
,,,,
Jul 15, 15 12:26 pm
How about a sod mat that the grounds crew replaces when it starts to degrade
justavisual
Feb 13, 19 9:08 am
hey Donna what happened with this?
Rather than trying to grow grass where it doesn't want to - suggest how to get people moving further than the top of the step by adding something else to visit up there...or keep them on the (wooden?) platform by installing a thin rope so they can look and keep off the grass. if they actually want to go into the park then they can open the rope.
ArchChancellor
Jul 3, 19 4:57 am
Well, justavisual, Donna is not here, and it's been two years, as I see.
Still, if you plan to use a natural grass near the stairs, be prepared to re-seed patches, watering, and fertilize (with NATURAL) fertilizers once in a while. When I had a similar project, I've done some reading on the centipede (Eremochloa ophiuroides) and bermuda (Cynodon dactylon), and both sound like they'd be perfect for what I was looking for: spreading, hardy, commonly used for sports fields (so good for high traffic).
Here's centipede:
Yet still I think that's such a pain to maintain, so I'm going to use astroturf next time, probably.
>>I'm going to try laying a piece of synthetic turf elsewhere in the lawn and monitor it over a few months to see how it looks. I hate the idea of a hard edge between the synthetic and the natural grass, but that might be the best option. Well, just use the long astroturf and leave a small gap between turf and natural lawn so that the fibers have room to blend together naturally. Here is comparison we've made. Astro is on top of a natural grass.
I've been told that there are grasses that can resist the foot traffic that leads to this existing bald spot. Frankly, I don't believe it. Any suggestions?
It should be noted that the majority of visitors to this park do the following: come up the stairs, step onto the grass, turn 360d. to see the entire enclosure, and go back down the stairs. The grass 6' beyond the top of the stairs barely sees any traffic by comparison.
I welcome any expert advice, as well as any snarky comments about landscape architects and marijuana.
Donna, your problem would be best solved by placing a small section of paving stones, effectively extending the existing landing at the top of the stairs. I don't think I've heard of a grass resilient to the trampling of fat tourists.
On another note, here's a picture of a squirrel enjoying a delicious pint of Guinness.
Thank you, Non Seq, for both the Guinness and the squirrel. That was of course my initial suggestion, because the grass that will resist fat tourists likely hasn't evolved yet...but that suggestion was rejected.
It must be grass at this location, no hardscape.
fake grass (synthetic turf)?
Why not a paver like this?
Based on your description of how people use that spot the soil is likely very compacted, which would make it hard for anything to grow in that location. I'm also guessing this is the case given that based in photo it appears that a slight depression has developed over time, resulting in a puddle- also bad.
Both those things are true, Marc. Twice in the last three years we've replaced the grass at this location, once with sod and once with seed, both times with a grass that is supposed to be hardy.
JeromeS, the grass pavers tend to have the same problem with excessive traffic in one spot - so then I'd have a bald grid spot rather than a bald earth spot.
I'm going to try laying a piece of synthetic turf elsewhere in the lawn and monitor it over a few months to see how it looks. I hate the idea of a hard edge between the synthetic and the natural grass, but that might be the best option.
No lawn type grass would survive there (maybe crabgrass...). A few stone pavers might look nice. Synthetic grass will look odd when the lawn changes color, but if the high visit times are when the lawn is green, it might not be so bad.
Need something like an armilary, water feature, statuary, flower beds, fountain, arbor, kiddie play thingys, covered seating area to entice people to spend time in the area. Why no cushions on the seats? The butt-ugly gabions need to go, both in the walls and benches. Limestone pavers in the bare area and/or a gravel walkway to the points of interest in the garden may be the only option.
There is a grid like material used to make grass paths ADA...badically reinforced turf...It would probably work similar to the permeable pavers that Jerome suggested but be less visable...
http://www.core6systems.com/coregrass
the grass pavers tend to have the same problem with excessive traffic in one spot - so then I'd have a bald grid spot rather than a bald earth spot.
Is this an installation problem? Shouldn't the soil and turf be low enough that neitherl is subject to compaction.
http://www.coregravel.ca/core-grass/
You would still need drain water for those solutions. So perhaps a structural soil underneath either one would be beneficial.
JeromeS I've never installed a pave-grass product like you posted on my own projects, but I've seen many of them installed and they tend to be very uneven, as the grass still can't hold up to repeated traffic in one spot.
jla-x that Core-Grass system might be worth trying. It is installed on the levee near my house, a strip about 4' wide. There is definitely a bare spot 12" wide right where everyone jogs, but overall across the width of the material the grass holds up pretty well.
I think for the moment I'll suggest a pad of the Core-Grass with the hardier grass species we used earlier AND to replace the soil in the area at the same time - Marc, the soil was replaced at least once, maybe twice, in previous repairs, though not with structural soil, IIRC.
It won't be an inexpensive solution but it will keep the continuous lawn appearance that the artist wants. Third time's the charm, I hope - if this grass replacement doesn't work, then we'll ask again if we can pursue a stone or wood landing pad instead of grass...
Thanks everyone!
Oh, and no one has pot recs?
What project is this?
Here.
cool...thanks Donna! How in the world does one begin to get these kinds of land art projects with museums? It would be really cool if you could provide some insight...
Have no idea whose work it is, but you could try something along these lines.
you would have to come to Colorado for the other recommendations
well, your seats go all the way around, so if people used them, the grass would be like this around the perimeter: maybe Non's extended landing goes all the way around, becomes visually a part of the wall/bench aperture and not a little tongue/landing breaking the line/edge of the grass. might get people to walk abit, like V said.
yes, i would like to get high.
reminds me of a quote I read recently...
"A lawn is nature under totalitarian rule"
just let the dead spot be...the grass dosent like it there...
The existing grass is no prize winner, either. Check out the sites of Luciano Giubbilei and Vladimir Djurovic for examples on minimalist gardens. Why would you have benches with no possibility of shade? Are there even any trees to lie under and read a book? How about some cable-stayed fabric umbrella system to provide some shelter in a corner of the park along with some chairs and tables? The bare spot is visitors saying "nothing here, let's go home".
The grass is dead b/c people are stepping on it, breaking it's structure - the compaction is a small part of it (it will cause the dimple). structural soil won't fix it, and geotextiles/webs/etc won't help much either - they're meant for infrequent traffic (fire lanes, stadium overflow parking, etc) where the grass has a chance to regrow.
Irrigate it, apply nutrient boost, root growth hormone, and limit traffic. Stretching the top landing out may be the most elegant solution.
I would try bent grass, it is commonly used in putting greens, also soil conditions are key, I would dig out the soil and replace it with a mix of compost and sand, clay will compact and kill the grass roots by depriving them of air. placing a grid of small perforated pvc pipe down 3-4 inches under the problem area can help with air and drainage, roots need to breathe
Over and OUT
Peter N
also reinstalling turf may be something to make as part of the landscape maintenance budget, the concert pavilion in Chicago's millennium park has new turf several times each year. but soil remediation for drainage up to 18" deep a grid of pipe for air and drainage 4-5" below the surface might do. well drained grass will need more irrigation in a drought
Check with the nicest maintained local golf course. They are experts in grasses siutable for your area and drainage systems as mentioned above.
Volunteer, this is an art piece (it's actually here at the Museum on loan, LOL. The art world is weird.). So umbrellas, etc. have no place in the artistic intent, which is actually very cool but takes some explanation; my 30-second tour guide rap is: The piece is called Park of the Laments, it's a highly rigorous enclosed geometric space within an otherwise wild and somewhat Romantic landscape park. one enters by descending a long solemn ramp, through a dark tunnel, and ascending out again into this rigidly controlled yet serene environment. The piece is about global conflict and the rocks in the gabion represent the individuals killed by such conflict despite a collective desire for peace within a chaotic world.
So, jaunty umbrellas would be rather out of place. However, jla-x, your comment about lawn being landscape under totalitarianism is weirdly appropriate.
The Modernist in me wants to leave the bald spot, but the grounds crew feels it makes them look ineffective. The artist doesn't want an extended hardscape landing pad to interrupt the rigid geometry of enclosed rectangles. So, we continue chasing the ideal in a material world, which is what architecture always is for me.
Since I'm rambling already, can anyone guess why this project reminds me of this ceramic teacup?
Donna, I don't think "rigidly controlled" and "serene" go together very well. The "umbrella" I was thinking of is like a small scale version of the fabric structure in La Defense in Paris, but several mature trees would serve the same purpose. There are some beautiful memorial parks around that reaffirm life in a transcendent way. This ain't one of them. At least someone should take care of the grass that is not flattened and trim the shrubs. Good luck!
Respectfully, Volunteer, I don't think you can make the judgement that this park "doesn't reaffirm life" unless you experience it in totality of the artist's vision, which means in this setting, with this arrival sequence, with the intended aural cues (there's a reason the tunnel is all concrete with a 7' ceiling), experiencing the weather of the day and the effect of the plantings for the season in which you visit.
This isn't a place that represents with photographs - which I would argue is true for the majority of architecture, too.
Well, they missed the rock thingy as well. Dry stacked stone walls common to New England would be quite beautiful. People also build mortared stone walls with the "look" of dry-stacked, which would probably be called for here for additional stability. As far as walking through a 7 foot high concrete tunnel to get there, I experience quite enough grimness when I look at the world's news each day.
Two galvanized steel posts with a chain across should keep those pesky visitors off the grass.
A sign that says MINED and a bunch of little flags all over the scrubby lawn would work too.
Maybe work this into the context of the art piece as collateral damage by demarcating with some thin metal lines embedded in the ground so that it looks intentional.
Nice, Calc. However most artists I know are extremely resistant to this kind of suggestion about their work, so I've learned not to make them. ;-)
Let the artiste read this thread. Honestly, by your own admission that the people come to the head of the stairs turn around and go back, indicates that the park, as currently designed, is a goner as a concept.
How about a sod mat that the grounds crew replaces when it starts to degrade
hey Donna what happened with this?
Rather than trying to grow grass where it doesn't want to - suggest how to get people moving further than the top of the step by adding something else to visit up there...or keep them on the (wooden?) platform by installing a thin rope so they can look and keep off the grass. if they actually want to go into the park then they can open the rope.
Well, justavisual, Donna is not here, and it's been two years, as I see.
Still, if you plan to use a natural grass near the stairs, be prepared to re-seed patches, watering, and fertilize (with NATURAL) fertilizers once in a while. When I had a similar project, I've done some reading on the centipede (Eremochloa ophiuroides) and bermuda (Cynodon dactylon), and both sound like they'd be perfect for what I was looking for: spreading, hardy, commonly used for sports fields (so good for high traffic).
Here's centipede:
Yet still I think that's such a pain to maintain, so I'm going to use astroturf next time, probably.
>>I'm going to try laying a piece of synthetic turf elsewhere in the lawn and monitor it over a few months to see how it looks. I hate the idea of a hard edge between the synthetic and the natural grass, but that might be the best option.
Well, just use the long astroturf and leave a small gap between turf and natural lawn so that the fibers have room to blend together naturally. Here is comparison we've made. Astro is on top of a natural grass.