I'm hoping that some of you who are studying/have studied on this course would be able to share some of your experiences so that my wife and I can assess the feasibility of her undertaking this course.
My wife is considering continuing her architecture studies by completing this course and we’re looking to get a realistic idea of the likely workload involved for planning around childcare arrangements (we have two children, aged 3 and 6). There’s a very high probability that I would not be around for extended periods (overseas) during her studies.
I understand that there will be variation from student to student but, are you able to give any indications in terms of hours per week that you’d expect students on the course to be undertaking in order to complete and pass the course? It would be also be very useful to know about the split between time at University (either in lectures or working on research/coursework) and private study time that could be done at home as this will have a direct impact on childcare.
Any details that you have around the anticipated costs (materials etc) of the course would also be very helpful.
Many thanks
anonitect
May 26, 15 1:08 pm
Minimum 70 hrs. a week, 80 - 90 to do well. I had one semester when I was in studio 20 hrs. a day. Some people worked from home, and I did have a couple of classmates with children, but I don't know how they did it.
There are inspirational people out there -- maybe your wife -- who can persevere in the face of great hardship and succeed because of their grit and determination, but, if it were my marriage, there would be a lot of tears and accusations of abandonment if I/she were overseas for extended periods, leaving the other alone with school and family.
Not impossible, but prepare for a really rough ride.
SpontaneousCombustion
May 26, 15 2:06 pm
In my grad program the coursework alone took about 30 hours per week: the primary studio was 3 days per week for 5 hours each day, and we were expected to take 3 or 4 other core courses or electives per semester - usually 4 hours of class per week for each, so another 12 to 16 hours.
For each hour of time in class I could expect to put in one to two hours of my own time in completing studio work, research, and other assignments. Most of us had teaching assistant positions or fellowships each semester after our first semester, which is also a few hours of prep time and a few hours of class time per week.
I had classmates with children - one with a nursing baby, another with pre-school aged twins, another with three school-aged kids. It's not impossible, but you'll have to consider logistics and finances. All of these people had additional childcare arrangements beyond school and daycare, as studio crits routinely stretched into the evenings, and some exams, site visits, field trips, etc. were held on weekends.
Non Sequitur
May 26, 15 2:26 pm
You don't need 90+hrs a week in studio to do well and if you're in studio for 20hrs per day, you're doing something wrong.
I've had many colleagues with kids, some with real jobs as well. Everyone finds their groove. Just don't let those who equal hours spent in studio with project quality tell you how difficult it is. It's not that hard if you know where to place your efforts.
Lscapeisaverb
May 26, 15 3:16 pm
Look at the expectations for time spent per credit hour at the institution. An example would be that some schools expect 3 hours of work for every course credit offered. So a 5 credit studio course would entail 15 hours- at the minimum.
That will give you a sense of the college or university standard. Depending on how sensitive the institution is to the course load of a student or with the program in architecture, you would need to add time to that number.
That said, you both are aware there is more to life than studio (gasp). She can take time risks as she sees fit as long as the final grade is passing.
Wilma Buttfit
May 26, 15 3:27 pm
In school, the amount of time per week required changes according to workflow. I did a B Arch, not a Masters, but we had the same classes so I'd say you need childcare full time, say 8-6 M-F throughout the whole program and then have childcare available for the nights and weekends here and there that will need to be devoted to schoolwork. Also in the evenings students are expected to go to lectures and events sponsored by the dept. Also many times you might have to meet in studio during off hours to work with other students on group projects, so even if your wife is good with time management, having childcare available when you need it, sometimes at the last minute, should be arranged. If you can afford it, get a live-in nanny and have them cook and clean too and your wife will love you forever.
anonitect
May 26, 15 4:03 pm
Am I alone here? If I had only worked 3 hours per credit hour outside of studio I would have been failed. Same goes for electives outside of architecture, competent work at a grad level means putting in more time than is expected of undergraduates.
The 20 hours a day was an especially rough semester; a brutal studio combined with other difficult courses. It wasn't just me, the whole studio was at school all the time. It was expected of us.
I still think that aprox. 80 hrs. of work a week is what's required to be a grad student in architecture.
Wilma Buttfit
May 26, 15 4:13 pm
anonitect, What hours are you counting? I was often in studio in the morning and during the day between other classes. I usually did Saturdays in studio too. I would often stay till 6 (studio ended at 5:20.) Nobody is in studio at these times yet you would either need to be, or to stay up all night to clock that many hours. Does architecture only come out at night?
Or maybe you guys are counting all the hours observing and thinking about architecture too, which could be 80-100+.
Lscapeisaverb
May 26, 15 4:17 pm
The credit hour gives you a baseline, it is not the end all be all (remember I said at a minimum)
The 80 hour week badge of honor is giving way to-
1- The average undergrad is expected to complete 27 hours of work per per day, seven days a week. That's based on the the average load, and not the isolated expectation of individual students.
2- There's an increasing assumption that it is what you do outside of classes that matters versus what what happens in them (read: competitions, clubs and organizations).
Finally, when you have children you are on the clock 168 hours a week-even when you aren't present. You need a tool to put things in perspective, and the credit hour expectation is exactly that.
anonitect
May 26, 15 5:17 pm
I certainly wouldn't consider 80 hrs. a week (total working time, including class time) to be a "badge of honor," it sucks, and is a bad way to teach people, in my opinion-- more hazing than education. Not bragging, at all - I just wanted to let the OP know how much work grad school can be.
Wilma Buttfit
May 26, 15 7:04 pm
is a bad way to teach people, in my opinion-- more hazing than education
Imagine how much we could learn if we all didn't have to get a big dose of brain damage with it. :)
awaiting_deletion
May 26, 15 8:35 pm
for grad school i commuted 3 hours one way inless i deove which was 1.75 hrs. i had real projects in the city of my school. i free lanced in another major city (philly-nyc) had a fiancee and yes i had some profs email the dean stating i wasnt spending enough tome in studio....was doing plenty of work.....if can be done and if she has a tough skin and can ignore people who think you have to be in studio 20 hours a day to produce something she will be fine. i got a C in the studio they wrote the dean on....could give a rats ass.....
May 26, 15 8:53 pm
If an employer wants me to dedicate 168 hours a week then they are going to pay me $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 per hour over 12 hours a week because it is impossibe to work 24/7. It is a death sentence.
archanonymous
May 26, 15 11:01 pm
It is definitely a full-time job. 40 hours +/ week.
natematt
May 26, 15 11:16 pm
People waste a lot of the time they say they are working, and still they say they spent even more. I think a good student could get out with B’s if they split 60hrs/week half at school and half at home. At the average school at least. It would be tougher around reviews though. I presume her background is architecture, otherwise that is a different story.
awaiting_deletion
May 26, 15 11:34 pm
if you are organized you can fake the "long hours" thing. Did it all the time and had a buddy who did it one better - he developed his thesis the summer before his last year, then took a full time job, and fed the professor stuff he did over the summer and was stubborn about changes stuff.
remember it's just a grade. if you don't like the work, that's a problem. if your professor doesn't like it, whatever....
OP I think it can be done, but as noted above, don't let her buy into the "long hours" bull shit and keep her ground.
ad_arch
May 27, 15 12:10 am
Thank you all for your responses, it definitely gives a lot to think about.
One more question please. In your experience/contact with students from other countries, is the time commitment consistent country to country or is there much variation?
Thanks again and good luck.
Stephanie Braconnier
May 27, 15 9:50 am
I can say that when I studied in Copenhagen, it was definitely encouraged to be in studio but there were parents in my masters year who had small children and the profs were very understanding. I feel like most European countries except maybe the UK would be fine with a student not being present in studio all the time - they afford much more respect to life/work balance.
In my opinion the projects the parents did were a lot more focused and practical since they had to prioritize their time while the rest of us had nothing pulling our focus except school.
I easily got by working 6-10 hours a day, no weekends, and probably could have focused even more if I'd had to. The idea of 80+ hours/week is incredibly inefficient. I got flack for working at home and not spending nights in studio (from both classmates and profs) but in the end - who gives a shit what they think? I did work I was proud of and no one has ever asked to see my grades since I graduated. I even came close to failing two design studios and those are the projects my employers have thought were the most interesting.
I have a few friends who work or studied in China and Korea, they said it's absolutely insane there - worse than the US by far in terms of the production expectations.
So I'd say there's a lot of variation in expectations but if you're a focused, mature student you can wade through all the BS and probably cut your studio time in half with no ill effect.
anonitect
May 27, 15 10:22 am
Not to belabor the point, but the people who are saying that you can work fewer hours also admit to getting poor grades in studio. They're right in saying that it doesn't matter in the long run -- unless you don't scrape by. The way arch. education is structured, failing a studio might mean an extra year in school, with all of the associated costs. That's a terrifying prospect for most people, which keeps them at school with their noses to the grindstone.
Again, I'm not saying that an 80 hour workweek is efficient, or good. Its not. But it was the reality for grad students when I was in school.
Also, to the inefficiency point: the conversations I had with classmates in studio which some people might consider a waste of time were a way to figure things out. We debating the merits of our projects, professional work, and ideas. It was enlightening - a really good way to discover what was important to us, and how we wanted to position ourselves in the profession. That's what education is supposed to be about. I loved that part; much of the rest of grad school kinda sucked.
Non Sequitur
May 27, 15 10:51 am
Funny how some view hours spent as added value to their studios. It's all in your head.
anonitect
May 27, 15 10:54 am
Could you explain, Non Sequitur?
Volunteer
May 27, 15 11:00 am
No one can work effectively for more than 50 to 55 hours a week (if that) and be effective. You can spend more time than that but you will be getting a lot less done and making serious mistakes. You also need at least one day off a week.
Non Sequitur
May 27, 15 11:12 am
Anonitect, studio, either grad or undergrad should be considered the equivalent of a full-time job... with the occasional overtime. I remember arriving in studio for 7am and went home at 6pm... On days that I worked in an architecture office, I would often return in the evenings for 3-4 hours to compensate. 60hrs tops.
People like to brag about how many "over-nighters" they've had to pull or how long their average weeks are... and all, without exception, exaggerate. I've always suspected it's a self-esteem thing to make bland projects seem better to that particular student. "How can it be bad if I spent so much time on it?" type of defence.
Volunteer is correct, after 55hrs, you're working against yourself. Your studio projects were not more intensive or difficult than anyone else's (assuming you're studying a Ncarb accredited program), you've just made choices that allegedly cost you a few extra dozen hours every week. If you were applying for a job and I heard you proudly claim 80+ hour weeks in studio, I would not hire you; it's not a badge of honour, or a reflection of project/design quality, it's an indication of poor time-management at best and a desperate call for attention at worst.
anonitect
May 27, 15 11:19 am
I'm not debating the merit of it, Volunteer. I'm only stating the reality. Grad school means long hours. I can't believe that you've gone through an M.Arch program. or you would know that the idea of a "day off" is laughable.
Wilma Buttfit
May 27, 15 11:31 am
I didn't get bad grades at all. I got one C in studio and that project turned into a great portfolio piece that employers really liked and got me a job. I had the top grade in a few studios. I pulled a few allnighters, but they never worked for me. I had a panic attack during a crit and I attribute it to not having slept for 2 nights.
For studio and thesis: more thinking, less doing. Your mental space is really powerful, use it. I think this is what the best students do, they run through lots of ideas quickly and efficiently to uncover the solution. I think it is best done in mental space but in school we are encouraged to produce, produce, produce and some students start practicing bad habits just to have something and to show something, but it isn't good. Make it good, draw it.
For non-studio classes, review your notes after every class. I would recopy them, which put them into my mind-space. If the class was an hour class, I spent the next hour recreating and understanding the material I had just learned. Then I read the books and studied for the tests and got A's. Very efficient and effective. This works for history and structures classes and most non-studio classes.
anonitect
May 27, 15 11:53 am
Good advice, tintt, and I don't disagree with you.
A couple of points, though.
1. A "C" in studio is in fact a bad grade.
2. At some point, you felt the need to go without sleep for 2 days. The OP was asking about the feasibility of grad school for a mother taking care of young children on her own. That's not going to work for her.
If I could do it again (which, if there is a god, I might be condemned to do for all eternity because of my sins here on earth,) I would be more efficient. but hindsight is 20/20. Hard to optimize one's efforts when sleep deprived and living in fear.
Wilma Buttfit
May 27, 15 11:57 am
anon, I did get some bad grades, yes, I agree a C is a bad grade, I should have been more clear, that is what I meant. That I DID get a C once, so I didn't get all great grades. And it doesn't even matter! Even the top kid in my class got plenty of B's. Nobody excelled at everything all the time, no matter how much effort they put in. It was a learning experience.
Stephanie Braconnier
May 27, 15 12:07 pm
Grades and evaluation of a project is extremely difficult to calibrate in arch. school. A bad grade does not always mean a bad project. As tintt mentioned, you can turn a project that got a bad grade into an excellent portfolio project. And like tintt I also got top grades on some of my other design projects, including my thesis. I do take your point anonitect - if I had failed a project (very unlikely in Denmark, but hypothetically), I would have potentially had to take an extra semester (or at least bring the existing project up to a place where it was deemed passable) which would be annoying, but not detrimental.
But here's an interesting correlation: the projects I did worst on were the ones near the beginning of my masters, when I was trying to live up to the studio standards, not limiting my working time.
The best projects - where I got top grades - were the ones that happened after I made a conscious decision to limit my working hours, spent time outside in the daylight, prepared good food, slept well, exercised, and did not work weekends. I think the difference is that when you give yourself a limited time, you make decisions more efficiently. When there is no limit to the amount of time you spend on something, the design process stretches indefinitely.
Stephanie Braconnier
May 27, 15 12:10 pm
By the way - in case you're interested - you can see one of my near-failures here.
The critique I got was 'it looks like a beach chair for drinking pina coladas in.'
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Non Sequitur
May 27, 15 12:19 pm
^ no cup holder.
I don't blame them for giving you a bad grade....
chair looks nice though.
natematt
May 27, 15 12:23 pm
So I've already stated my position that you can do fine with less hours, and if you are a good student you can do well with less hours.
However, I don't think the people arguing that you can't use 80+ hours effectively are correct either. Most people won’t, but it is very possible. I worked longer hours than most of my peers, I produced more work, got better grades, and arguably I had some better designs (the first three points are pretty objective).
Wilma Buttfit
May 27, 15 12:33 pm
There was a guy in my class that got all D's. In every class, we all thought for sure he should have failed, but he didn't. A few years ago I get a magazine (forget which one, maybe Architect) and guess who's face is on the cover.... Yes, on the cover. For being a top award winning architect or something. The kid never came to class, never came to studio. What the bleep do we all know anyways???? Nothing, that's what.
Stephanie Braconnier
May 27, 15 12:51 pm
^ Amen.
anonitect
May 27, 15 12:54 pm
Non Sequitur
If you were applying for a job and I heard you proudly claim 80+ hour weeks in studio, I would not hire you; it's not a badge of honour, or a reflection of project/design quality, it's an indication of poor time-management at best and a desperate call for attention at worst.
Hopefully I never find myself in the position of asking you for a job, because it appears that you embody one of the worst traits of architects, judging people without listening to what they have to say. I have consistently stated that I believe that 80 hour work weeks are a bad way to educate people. But-- the fact of the matter is that they are expected of graduate students. It was not just me who was working long hours, it was and continues to be the culture at the University I attended. If I had not done it, I wouldn't have made it through the program. Not a badge of honor, just survival, and certainly not something I would ever brag about.
My intention was simply to give the OP an idea about what he and his wife could expect.
pale shelter
May 27, 15 1:28 pm
anonitect: Non Sequitor is correct about his statement.. I wouldn't get too upset about it.
The most talented designer (who is principle designer of smallish 30 person firm) I"ve worked with - was in at 7:30 and left at 5 every day. AIA award winning. I'd hire him in and only a few others in this city ... because you know every hour he spends on a project is useful.. He told us that he maintained that mindset in college .. 8-5 every day... the guy knows how to work. And his success, both $$ wise and design leadership wise is because of it. (I wish I would have understood while in college, that time-in does not equate to more success ... it's likely the opposite .. the quicker to making a logical decision in design is more valuable to soooo many people involved... and then you move on to something else!). I remember the sentiment of knowing how much time i put into school at studio ... compared to other fields ... thought it was a culture of success.... wow how disillusioned architects are....
First person to be fired from the award winning firm I first worked at? My friend who put in 70-80 hours of work a week .... you can't trust those work-type people. Nice guy ... can't make decisions. Can't get shit done.
In my current position of managing and hiring architects and designers, I will (and have turned away) turn away those who I know will be working day/night on our projects ... what kind of professionalism is that? Makes one nervous ...
kickrocks
May 27, 15 1:29 pm
The point is that past X hours, you're unproductive. Putting in extra hours might be wasting it instead of putting the time to actual good use. Mind is too exhausted to think, careless mistakes happen.
The range: regular job schedule plus overtime, not past 60 hours or so. Some people have no other obligations and add on the weekends which should reach 80+ but that should not be expected anywhere. If you keep track of the time, most of those extra (late) hours can be spread out and absorbed over weeks instead of a single weekend. To do it every week is likely a time-management problem more than an expectation or necessity. Long hours justify themselves because it's far easier to spend more time than to set and stick to a firm limit.
May 27, 15 1:29 pm
Mistakes students often make in architecture school:
1. Overthink the assignment
2. Not ask the instructor/professor or whoever what the intent of the assignment and what the intent of the assignment and getting an understanding of the design problem.
3. Put too much time in rendering including over excessive computer rendering for a student assignment that robs you of time to effective solve the design problem.
The assignment isn't about how pretty your rendering is because rendering quality isn't going to hide the fact that the design is a turd. Before you ask, "Isn't rendering important?" Yes but not more than good design thinking and good design solution. Rendering only needs to aesthetically complement your communication of your design thinking and thought process in your design solution.
Non Sequitur
May 27, 15 1:30 pm
Sorry Anon... I should not have specified "you" in that post... but explained more generally. I see many, many fresh grads from all forms of design schools brag about the time spent in studio and not the ideas/projects generated from that alleged time.
natematt
May 27, 15 2:02 pm
@tintt
I know someone like that too... they work at Office Depot now.
There is always an exception that proves a point, but most people are not the exception.
kickrocks
May 27, 15 4:43 pm
^ The Harvard Dropout Complex
For elite students, school can be a needless obstacle.
For regular students who think too highly of themselves, dropping out is dropping out.
Hi
I'm hoping that some of you who are studying/have studied on this course would be able to share some of your experiences so that my wife and I can assess the feasibility of her undertaking this course.
My wife is considering continuing her architecture studies by completing this course and we’re looking to get a realistic idea of the likely workload involved for planning around childcare arrangements (we have two children, aged 3 and 6). There’s a very high probability that I would not be around for extended periods (overseas) during her studies.
I understand that there will be variation from student to student but, are you able to give any indications in terms of hours per week that you’d expect students on the course to be undertaking in order to complete and pass the course? It would be also be very useful to know about the split between time at University (either in lectures or working on research/coursework) and private study time that could be done at home as this will have a direct impact on childcare.
Any details that you have around the anticipated costs (materials etc) of the course would also be very helpful.
Many thanks
Minimum 70 hrs. a week, 80 - 90 to do well. I had one semester when I was in studio 20 hrs. a day. Some people worked from home, and I did have a couple of classmates with children, but I don't know how they did it.
There are inspirational people out there -- maybe your wife -- who can persevere in the face of great hardship and succeed because of their grit and determination, but, if it were my marriage, there would be a lot of tears and accusations of abandonment if I/she were overseas for extended periods, leaving the other alone with school and family.
Not impossible, but prepare for a really rough ride.
In my grad program the coursework alone took about 30 hours per week: the primary studio was 3 days per week for 5 hours each day, and we were expected to take 3 or 4 other core courses or electives per semester - usually 4 hours of class per week for each, so another 12 to 16 hours.
For each hour of time in class I could expect to put in one to two hours of my own time in completing studio work, research, and other assignments. Most of us had teaching assistant positions or fellowships each semester after our first semester, which is also a few hours of prep time and a few hours of class time per week.
I had classmates with children - one with a nursing baby, another with pre-school aged twins, another with three school-aged kids. It's not impossible, but you'll have to consider logistics and finances. All of these people had additional childcare arrangements beyond school and daycare, as studio crits routinely stretched into the evenings, and some exams, site visits, field trips, etc. were held on weekends.
You don't need 90+hrs a week in studio to do well and if you're in studio for 20hrs per day, you're doing something wrong.
I've had many colleagues with kids, some with real jobs as well. Everyone finds their groove. Just don't let those who equal hours spent in studio with project quality tell you how difficult it is. It's not that hard if you know where to place your efforts.
Look at the expectations for time spent per credit hour at the institution. An example would be that some schools expect 3 hours of work for every course credit offered. So a 5 credit studio course would entail 15 hours- at the minimum.
That will give you a sense of the college or university standard. Depending on how sensitive the institution is to the course load of a student or with the program in architecture, you would need to add time to that number.
That said, you both are aware there is more to life than studio (gasp). She can take time risks as she sees fit as long as the final grade is passing.
In school, the amount of time per week required changes according to workflow. I did a B Arch, not a Masters, but we had the same classes so I'd say you need childcare full time, say 8-6 M-F throughout the whole program and then have childcare available for the nights and weekends here and there that will need to be devoted to schoolwork. Also in the evenings students are expected to go to lectures and events sponsored by the dept. Also many times you might have to meet in studio during off hours to work with other students on group projects, so even if your wife is good with time management, having childcare available when you need it, sometimes at the last minute, should be arranged. If you can afford it, get a live-in nanny and have them cook and clean too and your wife will love you forever.
Am I alone here? If I had only worked 3 hours per credit hour outside of studio I would have been failed. Same goes for electives outside of architecture, competent work at a grad level means putting in more time than is expected of undergraduates.
The 20 hours a day was an especially rough semester; a brutal studio combined with other difficult courses. It wasn't just me, the whole studio was at school all the time. It was expected of us.
I still think that aprox. 80 hrs. of work a week is what's required to be a grad student in architecture.
anonitect, What hours are you counting? I was often in studio in the morning and during the day between other classes. I usually did Saturdays in studio too. I would often stay till 6 (studio ended at 5:20.) Nobody is in studio at these times yet you would either need to be, or to stay up all night to clock that many hours. Does architecture only come out at night?
Or maybe you guys are counting all the hours observing and thinking about architecture too, which could be 80-100+.
The credit hour gives you a baseline, it is not the end all be all (remember I said at a minimum)
The 80 hour week badge of honor is giving way to-
1- The average undergrad is expected to complete 27 hours of work per per day, seven days a week. That's based on the the average load, and not the isolated expectation of individual students.
2- There's an increasing assumption that it is what you do outside of classes that matters versus what what happens in them (read: competitions, clubs and organizations).
Finally, when you have children you are on the clock 168 hours a week-even when you aren't present. You need a tool to put things in perspective, and the credit hour expectation is exactly that.
I certainly wouldn't consider 80 hrs. a week (total working time, including class time) to be a "badge of honor," it sucks, and is a bad way to teach people, in my opinion-- more hazing than education. Not bragging, at all - I just wanted to let the OP know how much work grad school can be.
is a bad way to teach people, in my opinion-- more hazing than education
Imagine how much we could learn if we all didn't have to get a big dose of brain damage with it. :)
for grad school i commuted 3 hours one way inless i deove which was 1.75 hrs. i had real projects in the city of my school. i free lanced in another major city (philly-nyc) had a fiancee and yes i had some profs email the dean stating i wasnt spending enough tome in studio....was doing plenty of work.....if can be done and if she has a tough skin and can ignore people who think you have to be in studio 20 hours a day to produce something she will be fine. i got a C in the studio they wrote the dean on....could give a rats ass.....
If an employer wants me to dedicate 168 hours a week then they are going to pay me $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 per hour over 12 hours a week because it is impossibe to work 24/7. It is a death sentence.
It is definitely a full-time job. 40 hours +/ week.
People waste a lot of the time they say they are working, and still they say they spent even more. I think a good student could get out with B’s if they split 60hrs/week half at school and half at home. At the average school at least. It would be tougher around reviews though. I presume her background is architecture, otherwise that is a different story.
if you are organized you can fake the "long hours" thing. Did it all the time and had a buddy who did it one better - he developed his thesis the summer before his last year, then took a full time job, and fed the professor stuff he did over the summer and was stubborn about changes stuff.
remember it's just a grade. if you don't like the work, that's a problem. if your professor doesn't like it, whatever....
OP I think it can be done, but as noted above, don't let her buy into the "long hours" bull shit and keep her ground.
Thank you all for your responses, it definitely gives a lot to think about.
One more question please. In your experience/contact with students from other countries, is the time commitment consistent country to country or is there much variation?
Thanks again and good luck.
I can say that when I studied in Copenhagen, it was definitely encouraged to be in studio but there were parents in my masters year who had small children and the profs were very understanding. I feel like most European countries except maybe the UK would be fine with a student not being present in studio all the time - they afford much more respect to life/work balance.
In my opinion the projects the parents did were a lot more focused and practical since they had to prioritize their time while the rest of us had nothing pulling our focus except school.
I easily got by working 6-10 hours a day, no weekends, and probably could have focused even more if I'd had to. The idea of 80+ hours/week is incredibly inefficient. I got flack for working at home and not spending nights in studio (from both classmates and profs) but in the end - who gives a shit what they think? I did work I was proud of and no one has ever asked to see my grades since I graduated. I even came close to failing two design studios and those are the projects my employers have thought were the most interesting.
I have a few friends who work or studied in China and Korea, they said it's absolutely insane there - worse than the US by far in terms of the production expectations.
So I'd say there's a lot of variation in expectations but if you're a focused, mature student you can wade through all the BS and probably cut your studio time in half with no ill effect.
Not to belabor the point, but the people who are saying that you can work fewer hours also admit to getting poor grades in studio. They're right in saying that it doesn't matter in the long run -- unless you don't scrape by. The way arch. education is structured, failing a studio might mean an extra year in school, with all of the associated costs. That's a terrifying prospect for most people, which keeps them at school with their noses to the grindstone.
Again, I'm not saying that an 80 hour workweek is efficient, or good. Its not. But it was the reality for grad students when I was in school.
Also, to the inefficiency point: the conversations I had with classmates in studio which some people might consider a waste of time were a way to figure things out. We debating the merits of our projects, professional work, and ideas. It was enlightening - a really good way to discover what was important to us, and how we wanted to position ourselves in the profession. That's what education is supposed to be about. I loved that part; much of the rest of grad school kinda sucked.
Funny how some view hours spent as added value to their studios. It's all in your head.
Could you explain, Non Sequitur?
No one can work effectively for more than 50 to 55 hours a week (if that) and be effective. You can spend more time than that but you will be getting a lot less done and making serious mistakes. You also need at least one day off a week.
Anonitect, studio, either grad or undergrad should be considered the equivalent of a full-time job... with the occasional overtime. I remember arriving in studio for 7am and went home at 6pm... On days that I worked in an architecture office, I would often return in the evenings for 3-4 hours to compensate. 60hrs tops.
People like to brag about how many "over-nighters" they've had to pull or how long their average weeks are... and all, without exception, exaggerate. I've always suspected it's a self-esteem thing to make bland projects seem better to that particular student. "How can it be bad if I spent so much time on it?" type of defence.
Volunteer is correct, after 55hrs, you're working against yourself. Your studio projects were not more intensive or difficult than anyone else's (assuming you're studying a Ncarb accredited program), you've just made choices that allegedly cost you a few extra dozen hours every week. If you were applying for a job and I heard you proudly claim 80+ hour weeks in studio, I would not hire you; it's not a badge of honour, or a reflection of project/design quality, it's an indication of poor time-management at best and a desperate call for attention at worst.
I'm not debating the merit of it, Volunteer. I'm only stating the reality. Grad school means long hours. I can't believe that you've gone through an M.Arch program. or you would know that the idea of a "day off" is laughable.
I didn't get bad grades at all. I got one C in studio and that project turned into a great portfolio piece that employers really liked and got me a job. I had the top grade in a few studios. I pulled a few allnighters, but they never worked for me. I had a panic attack during a crit and I attribute it to not having slept for 2 nights.
For studio and thesis: more thinking, less doing. Your mental space is really powerful, use it. I think this is what the best students do, they run through lots of ideas quickly and efficiently to uncover the solution. I think it is best done in mental space but in school we are encouraged to produce, produce, produce and some students start practicing bad habits just to have something and to show something, but it isn't good. Make it good, draw it.
For non-studio classes, review your notes after every class. I would recopy them, which put them into my mind-space. If the class was an hour class, I spent the next hour recreating and understanding the material I had just learned. Then I read the books and studied for the tests and got A's. Very efficient and effective. This works for history and structures classes and most non-studio classes.
Good advice, tintt, and I don't disagree with you.
A couple of points, though.
1. A "C" in studio is in fact a bad grade.
2. At some point, you felt the need to go without sleep for 2 days. The OP was asking about the feasibility of grad school for a mother taking care of young children on her own. That's not going to work for her.
If I could do it again (which, if there is a god, I might be condemned to do for all eternity because of my sins here on earth,) I would be more efficient. but hindsight is 20/20. Hard to optimize one's efforts when sleep deprived and living in fear.
anon, I did get some bad grades, yes, I agree a C is a bad grade, I should have been more clear, that is what I meant. That I DID get a C once, so I didn't get all great grades. And it doesn't even matter! Even the top kid in my class got plenty of B's. Nobody excelled at everything all the time, no matter how much effort they put in. It was a learning experience.
Grades and evaluation of a project is extremely difficult to calibrate in arch. school. A bad grade does not always mean a bad project. As tintt mentioned, you can turn a project that got a bad grade into an excellent portfolio project. And like tintt I also got top grades on some of my other design projects, including my thesis. I do take your point anonitect - if I had failed a project (very unlikely in Denmark, but hypothetically), I would have potentially had to take an extra semester (or at least bring the existing project up to a place where it was deemed passable) which would be annoying, but not detrimental.
But here's an interesting correlation: the projects I did worst on were the ones near the beginning of my masters, when I was trying to live up to the studio standards, not limiting my working time.
The best projects - where I got top grades - were the ones that happened after I made a conscious decision to limit my working hours, spent time outside in the daylight, prepared good food, slept well, exercised, and did not work weekends. I think the difference is that when you give yourself a limited time, you make decisions more efficiently. When there is no limit to the amount of time you spend on something, the design process stretches indefinitely.
By the way - in case you're interested - you can see one of my near-failures here.
The critique I got was 'it looks like a beach chair for drinking pina coladas in.'
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
^ no cup holder.
I don't blame them for giving you a bad grade....
chair looks nice though.
So I've already stated my position that you can do fine with less hours, and if you are a good student you can do well with less hours.
However, I don't think the people arguing that you can't use 80+ hours effectively are correct either. Most people won’t, but it is very possible. I worked longer hours than most of my peers, I produced more work, got better grades, and arguably I had some better designs (the first three points are pretty objective).
There was a guy in my class that got all D's. In every class, we all thought for sure he should have failed, but he didn't. A few years ago I get a magazine (forget which one, maybe Architect) and guess who's face is on the cover.... Yes, on the cover. For being a top award winning architect or something. The kid never came to class, never came to studio. What the bleep do we all know anyways???? Nothing, that's what.
^ Amen.
Non Sequitur
If you were applying for a job and I heard you proudly claim 80+ hour weeks in studio, I would not hire you; it's not a badge of honour, or a reflection of project/design quality, it's an indication of poor time-management at best and a desperate call for attention at worst.
Hopefully I never find myself in the position of asking you for a job, because it appears that you embody one of the worst traits of architects, judging people without listening to what they have to say. I have consistently stated that I believe that 80 hour work weeks are a bad way to educate people. But-- the fact of the matter is that they are expected of graduate students. It was not just me who was working long hours, it was and continues to be the culture at the University I attended. If I had not done it, I wouldn't have made it through the program. Not a badge of honor, just survival, and certainly not something I would ever brag about.
My intention was simply to give the OP an idea about what he and his wife could expect.
anonitect: Non Sequitor is correct about his statement.. I wouldn't get too upset about it.
The most talented designer (who is principle designer of smallish 30 person firm) I"ve worked with - was in at 7:30 and left at 5 every day. AIA award winning. I'd hire him in and only a few others in this city ... because you know every hour he spends on a project is useful.. He told us that he maintained that mindset in college .. 8-5 every day... the guy knows how to work. And his success, both $$ wise and design leadership wise is because of it. (I wish I would have understood while in college, that time-in does not equate to more success ... it's likely the opposite .. the quicker to making a logical decision in design is more valuable to soooo many people involved... and then you move on to something else!). I remember the sentiment of knowing how much time i put into school at studio ... compared to other fields ... thought it was a culture of success.... wow how disillusioned architects are....
First person to be fired from the award winning firm I first worked at? My friend who put in 70-80 hours of work a week .... you can't trust those work-type people. Nice guy ... can't make decisions. Can't get shit done.
In my current position of managing and hiring architects and designers, I will (and have turned away) turn away those who I know will be working day/night on our projects ... what kind of professionalism is that? Makes one nervous ...
The point is that past X hours, you're unproductive. Putting in extra hours might be wasting it instead of putting the time to actual good use. Mind is too exhausted to think, careless mistakes happen.
The range: regular job schedule plus overtime, not past 60 hours or so. Some people have no other obligations and add on the weekends which should reach 80+ but that should not be expected anywhere. If you keep track of the time, most of those extra (late) hours can be spread out and absorbed over weeks instead of a single weekend. To do it every week is likely a time-management problem more than an expectation or necessity. Long hours justify themselves because it's far easier to spend more time than to set and stick to a firm limit.
Mistakes students often make in architecture school:
1. Overthink the assignment
2. Not ask the instructor/professor or whoever what the intent of the assignment and what the intent of the assignment and getting an understanding of the design problem.
3. Put too much time in rendering including over excessive computer rendering for a student assignment that robs you of time to effective solve the design problem.
The assignment isn't about how pretty your rendering is because rendering quality isn't going to hide the fact that the design is a turd. Before you ask, "Isn't rendering important?" Yes but not more than good design thinking and good design solution. Rendering only needs to aesthetically complement your communication of your design thinking and thought process in your design solution.
Sorry Anon... I should not have specified "you" in that post... but explained more generally. I see many, many fresh grads from all forms of design schools brag about the time spent in studio and not the ideas/projects generated from that alleged time.
@tintt
I know someone like that too... they work at Office Depot now.
There is always an exception that proves a point, but most people are not the exception.
^ The Harvard Dropout Complex
For elite students, school can be a needless obstacle.
For regular students who think too highly of themselves, dropping out is dropping out.