Approximately 25% of our monthly work load comes from one or two other landscape and planning firms in our region where we help pick up slack with design, graphics, production drawings.
One of the firms, withc whom we've had a relatively long relationship with (6-7 years) has asked us to help them with stamping site and landscape drawings for a school project out of state.
They do not have anyone licensed in that state in their office. We do, my partner.
We've agreed to review the drawing set and stamp. Of course we are opening ourselves to liability, but I also know this firm is pretty well established with prior school experience and never had any issues in our home state.
My questions are:
What would you charge and how would you word the invoice line item? We were thinking our principals hourly rate for review plus perhaps 50% as a separate line item.
We typically work for them on a simple, hourly basis, but should this project warrant a separate contract that outlines each parties role?
Is there any way to make the roles clear so as to share some of the liability or would all liability default to the stamp?
Approximate cost of construction site is probably in the range of $200k-300.
Carrera
May 26, 15 12:13 am
Liability? Not to be a smart-ass but what's going to happen...a bush turning brown?
Larchinect
May 26, 15 4:08 am
Yes, a 'bush' turning brown. Believe it or not we're responsible for more than 'bushes.' Boy...
Just wondering if any of the handful of LA's here have stamped others drawings? How did you charge?
Miles Jaffe
May 26, 15 9:28 am
Generally the supplying nursery guarantees plants for a year if installed by a competent landscaper.
Tripping over curbing, cost overruns, drowning in a water feature, unsuitable plant material, etc. as well as anything a scumbag lawyer could invent. Like the woman who sued McDonalds for getting burned by coffee held between her legs while driving.
Your stamp, you're liable. 50% of the fee plus complete control of the drawings.
3tk
May 26, 15 10:20 am
You're 100% liable if you stamp - 50% fees should cover insurance and a bit more.
Carreara: trips, accidents, any damages that can be associated with any portion of the work (heaving of pavement, water damage), branches falling, dead trees (down in NOLA, some of those trees are pegged with values upward of 100k), contamination of groundwater, etc.
chigurh
May 26, 15 11:30 am
carrera coming strong with the burn!!!!
SneakyPete
May 26, 15 11:49 am
The McDonald's woman actually had a case, as the coffee was super heated (well above standard temperatures) and caused nerve damage and pain for the rest of her life.
"...was hospitalized for eight days while she underwent skin grafting, followed by two years of medical treatment."
McDonald's also refused to settle, thus the eventual jury-awarded punitive settlement.
x-jla
May 26, 15 11:50 am
haha....you guys wanted the stamp...now live with the unwanted liability...LA shouldnt have followed architects path of protectionism...you have now become a liability dump...something the contractor should be...
Everyday Intern
May 26, 15 11:54 am
I'm surprised no one has commented on the legality of the other firm performing landscape architectural services without a license. Isn't this why everyone clamors for protection of the title of architect? Maybe things are more laid back in landscape circles.
Who is the client? Is the design firm contracted with the owner, or are they contracted as a consultant to another design/engineering professional? Does the client know their landscape architect can't stamp the drawings?
Will your firm be doing any of the actual production of the drawings, or just reviewing the work the other firm is doing and stamping it? Will you be involved in the decision making process during design? Is the state ok with this?
x-jla
May 26, 15 12:02 pm
happens all the time in architecture too...
x-jla
May 26, 15 12:05 pm
but, perfectly legal to provide design drawings and hire an aor. And if there is a problem just call it art like robert irwin did at the getty museum. Also, yes landscape is a diverse field with established competitors like landscape design, horticulture, etc..A few states dont even have practice acts...Like Illinois...Probably very dangerous landscapes in Illinois.
x-jla
May 26, 15 12:15 pm
LA is a fantastic field and I personally find it more interesting and more beautiful than Buildings, but the hsw argument has been really exhausted...and the idea of making oneself more liable by choice...in exchange for protectionism...is a foolish business decision...
x-jla
May 26, 15 12:23 pm
end of rant...
Lscapeisaverb
May 26, 15 12:30 pm
Given that it's a school project you should be able to find some state standards for review that will help you determine what your "CYA procedures" should be, but I'd be more concerned with how a contract allows you to engage with the other disciplines and to what degree. Working with the architect is one thing, but having access to the civil engineer is an entirely different matter.
Larchinect
May 26, 15 1:51 pm
The set is done. We are only reviewing, redlining. The design is pretty straight forward with most of the site construction and grading referring to civil/structural. Details are pretty standard, not much in the way of custom features. Probably take us 8 hours or less to review and markup, and I dont expect many markups. The question becomes what is reasonable compensation for exposing ourselves to the (albeit minimal) risk? Charging 8 hours alone doesnt seem worthwhile, while 50% fees doesnt seem fair.
Thanks for the discussion. It is helpful.
x-jla
May 26, 15 1:55 pm
charge them time x2 then.
Miles Jaffe
May 26, 15 1:57 pm
50% will seem like too little when you get the subpoena.
x-jla
May 26, 15 1:57 pm
also may be beneficial just for the local connections that you can make with the school system.
3tk
May 26, 15 2:06 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the stamp on the project cost something in insurance?
Non Sequitur
May 26, 15 2:28 pm
I have a feeling our LA on one of my office's big projects is getting into some hot water... something to do about shrubs dying on account of a (possibly) ignored ground water test.
chigurh
May 26, 15 2:44 pm
LAs can get sued from dudes pissing on their shrubs and killing them...failed to complete a bar proximity and foot traffic report.
Everyday Intern
May 26, 15 3:11 pm
jla-x mentions that this is done all the time in architecture with a design architect and an architect of record (AOR). However, I'm used to seeing AORs involved throughout the project's CD phase ... if not parts of the DD phase as well.
Landscape firm looking to hire another firm for a stamp because they aren't licensed in a particular state.
I would definitely check the laws to see what is allowable practice in the state. Your firm may be perfectly within your rights and responsibilities to do what is proposed. Even then, the design firm may not be representing themselves accurately, and I wouldn't want to align myself with that, especially given the lawsuit linked above. I would still want to know the answer to my other questions about the client and their expectations.
x-jla
May 26, 15 3:20 pm
Oh yes, Wasnt aware CDs were already Drawn.
Carrera
May 26, 15 3:46 pm
Not sure as to value, maybe the stamp equates to exposure. That would prompt me to call an insurance guy to see what it would cost to buy a single project policy, that’s essentially what they are buying…then add your hours to that. Whether you buy the policy or not is irrelevant to this discussion.
Lscapeisaverb
May 26, 15 3:54 pm
There's a slightly sticky ethics matter buried in here as well.
From the ASLA- R1.302 Members shall not sign or seal drawings, specifications, reports, or other professional work for which they do not have direct professional knowledge or direct supervisory control.
As a precaution, you should demonstrate that this was indeed the case- which will in turn change the amount of time you spend on the drawings, thus changing the fee...
Everyday Intern
May 26, 15 6:41 pm
Another outlet to consider for the design firm (it would mean no work for your firm however) is to get a license in the state where the project is located, or hire someone with that license. I've worked at firms where this was deemed worthwhile. However, it was done early enough during the pursuit of a project that everything could be in place before the stamp was necessary. It is already probably too late for this project.
I have absolutely zero business leadership experience do draw from, so these questions may be completely naive as to how things are actually run, but how did the design firm let this project get this far along without having a way to stamp the drawings? Wouldn't this be something that should have come up a lot earlier? Potential legal and ethical issues noted as well, is this a firm you'd want your firm to be doing a lot of business with and associated with? In your previous 6-7 years of working with them, has stuff like this come up before? Did their firm leadership recently change or is this something they've always done, but are just now asking you to do? Did they have someone with the proper license that is no longer with them? Was there another firm that would have done it but backed out at the last minute because they didn't want the liability?
Larchinect
May 27, 15 12:06 am
We have control of the documents. They're drawn, but that doesnt preclude changes/revisions as we see fit.
EI--If you ever find yourself in that leadership role (not just a principal, but an owner/partner), you may find that making new business isnt always so black and white. It also doesnt help that every jurisdiction from state to state and city to county has different seal requirements for LA's and sometimes it's not very clear.
Honestly, I think I over sold. The CD package is pretty simple. We could re-create it in a week if needed.
However, we are a fledgling young firm, so want to make sure we're not making flagrant errors in judgement--mostly wanting to know what the protocol is for those that may have been in this situation before, which I'm sure there are more around than care to admit.
Larchinect
May 27, 15 12:07 am
under a week, I should say.
Appreciate the feedback.
3tk
May 27, 15 2:42 pm
Since you quoted the ASLA segment, yes, your fellow professionals (particularly the more senior ones) will frown upon it.
Lscapeisaverb
May 27, 15 7:35 pm
@3tk - you mean the more senior ones will forget when they did that type of work to keep the doors open, and frown upon it.
x-jla
May 27, 15 8:37 pm
Do what you have to do. Screw what others think! This meat and potatoes work keeps the doors open. "if you dont eat your meat you cant have any pudding"
Larchinect
May 27, 15 9:06 pm
I appreciate that jla-x and Lscapeisaverb...very true. There will always be some inherent risk in running a business and it's not always so black and white. While I didnt exactly get the answer I was looking for, it is helpful to get the feedback.
We are a small Landscape Architecture practice.
Approximately 25% of our monthly work load comes from one or two other landscape and planning firms in our region where we help pick up slack with design, graphics, production drawings.
One of the firms, withc whom we've had a relatively long relationship with (6-7 years) has asked us to help them with stamping site and landscape drawings for a school project out of state.
They do not have anyone licensed in that state in their office. We do, my partner.
We've agreed to review the drawing set and stamp. Of course we are opening ourselves to liability, but I also know this firm is pretty well established with prior school experience and never had any issues in our home state.
My questions are:
What would you charge and how would you word the invoice line item? We were thinking our principals hourly rate for review plus perhaps 50% as a separate line item.
We typically work for them on a simple, hourly basis, but should this project warrant a separate contract that outlines each parties role?
Is there any way to make the roles clear so as to share some of the liability or would all liability default to the stamp?
Approximate cost of construction site is probably in the range of $200k-300.
Liability? Not to be a smart-ass but what's going to happen...a bush turning brown?
Yes, a 'bush' turning brown. Believe it or not we're responsible for more than 'bushes.' Boy...
Just wondering if any of the handful of LA's here have stamped others drawings? How did you charge?
Generally the supplying nursery guarantees plants for a year if installed by a competent landscaper.
Tripping over curbing, cost overruns, drowning in a water feature, unsuitable plant material, etc. as well as anything a scumbag lawyer could invent. Like the woman who sued McDonalds for getting burned by coffee held between her legs while driving.
Your stamp, you're liable. 50% of the fee plus complete control of the drawings.
You're 100% liable if you stamp - 50% fees should cover insurance and a bit more.
Carreara: trips, accidents, any damages that can be associated with any portion of the work (heaving of pavement, water damage), branches falling, dead trees (down in NOLA, some of those trees are pegged with values upward of 100k), contamination of groundwater, etc.
carrera coming strong with the burn!!!!
The McDonald's woman actually had a case, as the coffee was super heated (well above standard temperatures) and caused nerve damage and pain for the rest of her life.
"...was hospitalized for eight days while she underwent skin grafting, followed by two years of medical treatment."
McDonald's also refused to settle, thus the eventual jury-awarded punitive settlement.
haha....you guys wanted the stamp...now live with the unwanted liability...LA shouldnt have followed architects path of protectionism...you have now become a liability dump...something the contractor should be...
I'm surprised no one has commented on the legality of the other firm performing landscape architectural services without a license. Isn't this why everyone clamors for protection of the title of architect? Maybe things are more laid back in landscape circles.
Who is the client? Is the design firm contracted with the owner, or are they contracted as a consultant to another design/engineering professional? Does the client know their landscape architect can't stamp the drawings?
Will your firm be doing any of the actual production of the drawings, or just reviewing the work the other firm is doing and stamping it? Will you be involved in the decision making process during design? Is the state ok with this?
happens all the time in architecture too...
but, perfectly legal to provide design drawings and hire an aor. And if there is a problem just call it art like robert irwin did at the getty museum. Also, yes landscape is a diverse field with established competitors like landscape design, horticulture, etc..A few states dont even have practice acts...Like Illinois...Probably very dangerous landscapes in Illinois.
LA is a fantastic field and I personally find it more interesting and more beautiful than Buildings, but the hsw argument has been really exhausted...and the idea of making oneself more liable by choice...in exchange for protectionism...is a foolish business decision...
end of rant...
Given that it's a school project you should be able to find some state standards for review that will help you determine what your "CYA procedures" should be, but I'd be more concerned with how a contract allows you to engage with the other disciplines and to what degree. Working with the architect is one thing, but having access to the civil engineer is an entirely different matter.
The set is done. We are only reviewing, redlining. The design is pretty straight forward with most of the site construction and grading referring to civil/structural. Details are pretty standard, not much in the way of custom features. Probably take us 8 hours or less to review and markup, and I dont expect many markups. The question becomes what is reasonable compensation for exposing ourselves to the (albeit minimal) risk? Charging 8 hours alone doesnt seem worthwhile, while 50% fees doesnt seem fair.
Thanks for the discussion. It is helpful.
charge them time x2 then.
50% will seem like too little when you get the subpoena.
also may be beneficial just for the local connections that you can make with the school system.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the stamp on the project cost something in insurance?
I have a feeling our LA on one of my office's big projects is getting into some hot water... something to do about shrubs dying on account of a (possibly) ignored ground water test.
LAs can get sued from dudes pissing on their shrubs and killing them...failed to complete a bar proximity and foot traffic report.
jla-x mentions that this is done all the time in architecture with a design architect and an architect of record (AOR). However, I'm used to seeing AORs involved throughout the project's CD phase ... if not parts of the DD phase as well.
I'm also seeing a connection here:
I would definitely check the laws to see what is allowable practice in the state. Your firm may be perfectly within your rights and responsibilities to do what is proposed. Even then, the design firm may not be representing themselves accurately, and I wouldn't want to align myself with that, especially given the lawsuit linked above. I would still want to know the answer to my other questions about the client and their expectations.
Oh yes, Wasnt aware CDs were already Drawn.
Not sure as to value, maybe the stamp equates to exposure. That would prompt me to call an insurance guy to see what it would cost to buy a single project policy, that’s essentially what they are buying…then add your hours to that. Whether you buy the policy or not is irrelevant to this discussion.
There's a slightly sticky ethics matter buried in here as well.
From the ASLA- R1.302 Members shall not sign or seal drawings, specifications, reports, or other professional work for which they do not have direct professional knowledge or direct supervisory control.
As a precaution, you should demonstrate that this was indeed the case- which will in turn change the amount of time you spend on the drawings, thus changing the fee...
Another outlet to consider for the design firm (it would mean no work for your firm however) is to get a license in the state where the project is located, or hire someone with that license. I've worked at firms where this was deemed worthwhile. However, it was done early enough during the pursuit of a project that everything could be in place before the stamp was necessary. It is already probably too late for this project.
I have absolutely zero business leadership experience do draw from, so these questions may be completely naive as to how things are actually run, but how did the design firm let this project get this far along without having a way to stamp the drawings? Wouldn't this be something that should have come up a lot earlier? Potential legal and ethical issues noted as well, is this a firm you'd want your firm to be doing a lot of business with and associated with? In your previous 6-7 years of working with them, has stuff like this come up before? Did their firm leadership recently change or is this something they've always done, but are just now asking you to do? Did they have someone with the proper license that is no longer with them? Was there another firm that would have done it but backed out at the last minute because they didn't want the liability?
We have control of the documents. They're drawn, but that doesnt preclude changes/revisions as we see fit.
EI--If you ever find yourself in that leadership role (not just a principal, but an owner/partner), you may find that making new business isnt always so black and white. It also doesnt help that every jurisdiction from state to state and city to county has different seal requirements for LA's and sometimes it's not very clear.
Honestly, I think I over sold. The CD package is pretty simple. We could re-create it in a week if needed.
However, we are a fledgling young firm, so want to make sure we're not making flagrant errors in judgement--mostly wanting to know what the protocol is for those that may have been in this situation before, which I'm sure there are more around than care to admit.
under a week, I should say.
Appreciate the feedback.
Since you quoted the ASLA segment, yes, your fellow professionals (particularly the more senior ones) will frown upon it.
@3tk - you mean the more senior ones will forget when they did that type of work to keep the doors open, and frown upon it.
Do what you have to do. Screw what others think! This meat and potatoes work keeps the doors open. "if you dont eat your meat you cant have any pudding"
I appreciate that jla-x and Lscapeisaverb...very true. There will always be some inherent risk in running a business and it's not always so black and white. While I didnt exactly get the answer I was looking for, it is helpful to get the feedback.