Anyone have experience with the local housing market? I know some firms like perkins & will used to have a group working on brazil project. The current president Lulu is working on building one million cheap housing for the low class people there. brazil population is very young comparing to US/China. Their middle class is growing rapidly.
My main investment tool would be buying their real estate firm stocks like GFA.
Your comments are welcome.
drums please, Fab?
Aug 3, 10 12:17 pm
'low class' people?
cmrhm
Aug 3, 10 12:28 pm
Sorry. Low income people. Just checked, the number is 1M low income houses.
do2
Aug 3, 10 12:50 pm
Thats a question for the pimp... not the whore
cmrhm
Aug 3, 10 12:56 pm
why? envy their potential?
aquapura
Aug 3, 10 1:24 pm
I think Brazil has huge potential and would suggest any large firm look there over the cliche China & India. That said, I've read that's its very hard to break into the Brazil market. Start a firm there and you pretty much have to let local run it. That type of regulation makes it difficult. But if you can do it, there's a boat load of potential.
cmrhm
Aug 3, 10 1:43 pm
But brazil country's income is diversified. oil, mining, tourisum. the government don't need to rely on the real estate. China is different, the urbanization pressure is huge. The government need to build enough infrastructure, hospital, schools and house for people to live, fuxk and work.
So you say Brazil is brighter than China, I don't get it. Their development is behind China for 10 years.
LITS4FormZ
Aug 3, 10 1:54 pm
China has 关系 (GuanXi)...Brazil has regulations
Now it's debatable which is better for business but I'd side with with the far east any time.
Orhan Ayyüce
Aug 3, 10 2:03 pm
A post script to begin with.
However accidental and Freudian slip like might be on the original poster's case, I was provoked by the use of "low class people" and wrote this partially wishful thinking and partially fact based ways of looking at the situation:
"Due to high demand we are experiencing for our low class market, specially in the know how and public service areas, we had to add a surcharge for reviewing international proposals.
We are to inform you that political criteria will be important in order to keep these things protected from speculative American style take overs.
Please be prepared to compete with domestic, highly skilled and technologically advanced professional building industry with years of experience and interaction with the community.
A lot has changed since our low class people took the matters in their hands and played drums for their American friends."
Thank you for your interest in our low class people and Brazilian markets.
I think anybody who is planning to get involve with Brazilian construction industry and its housing market, need to know that it is not like other top-down regulated markets like Dubai or China.
Brazil is a substantial size of a bottom up community architecture thriving examplary country with stark contrasts and co-existing economies. Brazil is a current place to launch much needed world wide version of "community architecture and urbanism" like you never seen before era with all functioning ways of plugging into existing systems, utilizing the available means, innovating and moving on faster.
There are other places similar like India, Turkey and there will be more of them in coming decades, years.
This is a huge shift in influence and community based power. There is an all important fill in the voids, capture the future race underway across the globe.
Getting increasingly non aligned and creating their own domestic pools and dynamics, independently establishing their own ways of distributing public wealth, having political will and informed public support or opposition to public policies, debates, and through their own unique political eco systems, they have developed processes and speeds on getting things done. There are a lot of criticism coming from United States, mostly accusations of drifting away from our old and tired post ww2 spiel of democracy, Fordian economic take overs and influence on their markets.
Main thing we forget tolook is that these societies are efficiently technological and highly aware of the process and delivery. Our Marshall Plan superiority is long over and we have not been creative and productive with our arrogant application of our hardware rich might.
I am more so inclined to think and wish that they might export their "survival in 21 st. century" goods and ideas to us, like Japan and Europe did with cars, because what they make is better than what we make.
We also need to do what they are doing for their "low class" people.
cmrhm
Aug 3, 10 2:22 pm
Orhan:
Thanks for your poetic illustration of current/future brazil.
SO you suggest their regulation is less prominent than the one china has?
Do you know which US firm has largest share of exposure in brazil? Do they do international competition for their gyms for Olympic and world cup?
Orhan Ayyüce
Aug 3, 10 5:16 pm
I think it is conceptually safe to say, yes they would employ an international firm like Perkins + Will, but P+W must offer comparable price, delivery and know how to get it done locally. There are more companies who can supply what they did with less competition.
If you are not hands-on foreign investor capable of setting up your own teams of funding, production and marketing, you are basically in their hands of their doing whatever that might be.
To achieve success in public housing sector is usually a task of the local blood and government organizations, initiatives, investments, slogans such as "My Home, My Life" in Brazil and an organization like TOKI in Turkey. This is when housing, politics, labor, citizenry and life all work with humming concrete trucks pumping cement and workers' lives fulfilled. It chimes with Brazilian psyche, with what Turkish housing supply and demand can bear and with the scale of Chinese explosions.
As far as your question,
sure if there is something falls into their master plan, Brazilians would seek and award international trophy architects/firms.
Like Zaha Hadid was hired to do rubber shoes for Brazilian fashion company Melissa Plastic Dreams?
I don't know which architecture firm has a market share in Brazil but I sure like to see one of their firms, MMBB, doing a project in Los Angeles.
Rusty!
Aug 3, 10 5:21 pm
Yeah Orphan! Thanks for the blah blah, now tell us which beach we should start our invasion from. Things are gonna get all rapey down there! Tell your low class to wash their privates.
Rusty!
Aug 3, 10 5:26 pm
Problem with your local firms stance is they don't have something Amurikhhhan firms have: magic!
And nukes. 2 nukes per registered Architect.
Orhan Ayyüce
Aug 3, 10 7:39 pm
I hate the microsoft auto correction of my name! Don't ask me why but Ahmrican firms should start the invasion from: here!
Rusty!
Aug 4, 10 4:59 am
@Orhan:
Awwww. Poor penguins! California had a similar problem with washed up Canadian hippies not too long ago. We euthanized them instead of shipping them back to their natural habitat (cost factors, bankrupt state, etc...).
Sorry for misspelling your name. All me. No Microsoft involved.
On a slightly more serious note, I'm happy to hear all the recent talk of Brazil being the next emerging market. Soccer, sex, soccer, gang violence, soccer,... and finally economic growth!! It's about time! What makes it even better is that we won't be able to exploit but merely admire.
Hawkin
Aug 4, 10 6:06 am
I quite agree with Orhan.
I read this article a while ago, and knowing Brazil a bit (I am native in Portuguese, so Brazil will be probably my next stop when I get sick of my current Asian location), I think it's the more accurate article regarding the construction industry in Brazil that I have read so far:
I find very deep diferences with Dubai and/or China.
- There are extremely good and fresh local architectural practices. Plus Brazil is one of the new hypes (specials in Wallpaper, Brazilian design everywhere, etc.) so I wouldn't be surprised they would expand abroad with "boutique" buildings. China is so 2000s by now :)
- Corporate Western practices in the way they are settled in SE Asia or the Middle East (like conquerors who are revealing the truth about architecture and engineering) are not welcomed. Most Brazilians would be reluctant to Western practices, specially to Anglo Saxon, notably to American practices. Note that the very few foreign practices that have new buildings in Brazil are basically from France (Portzamparc has office in Rio), Portugal (obviously historical links), and maybe some buildings from German/Swiss (also historical links, huge German community there) or Spanish offices.
- There is also its "GuanXi" but in a different way. At the end Chinese and US way of doing things are pretty similar, they are very focused in money and profit. Brazilian way of doing things is quite different. To get a contract, they would spend their time in a long lunch with wine rather than in a quick sandwich (as Chinese or Americans would do). Also US aggresive commerical style is not welcomed, and that would freak out anyone there.
Said that, I can only find a place for foreign practices in those two areas:
- Extremely high-tech/complicated buildings. There is a kind of small "Dubaitization" in big cities like Sao Paulo, Rio, etc. with global corporate / high-end high-rise buildings that maybe can have a place for foreign offices. Also stadiums for the Olympics or the World Cup.
- Starchitects. Always welcomed to design attention-seeker buildings (as Orhan as already pointed out).
So forget seeing Atkins, Perkins & Will, SOM or whoever designing anonymus office towers in Manaus or Salvador de Bahia, as they did in Doha or the latest provincial town in China.
I would see something more like Spain (obviously with economic differences, Brazil is a developing country and a huge market). During the construction boom a few years ago, virtually every starachitect design a few buildings there, but big corporate American practices were virtually outside the market.
snook_dude
Aug 4, 10 8:23 am
cmrhm I could introduce you to my brother inlaw....he has his fingers on the Brazilian Real Estate Market. That is if you speak Portugese.
Hugoistique12
Aug 5, 10 9:13 am
Hawking, many global architectural practices such as SOM and KPF have done several buildings in Brazil, its true though that the projects are always located in the finance districts of sao paulo or Rio... and the clients are mostly global banks, For SOM and such to really invade the Brazilian market, other than the business centers in SP, the Brazilian mentality towards foreign knowledge must change... Brazilians are to conservative, look at Sao Paulo and you will see that nearly half of the high rises are neo classical building... there is something wrong with that picture...
cmrhm
Aug 5, 10 10:10 am
snook_dude: thank you. But I don't speak Portugese though.
snook_dude
Aug 5, 10 10:58 am
Well dude I would say stay clear. You will find the climate difficult at best. If you speak Portugese then people are alot more receptive. because they know you know what your saying otherwise your a bag of wind. English as a second language is taught in Private Schools and some students like my niece and nephew to to the American School to learn english from American teachers, but it is not that common.
The money system in Brazil is very complex at best. There are a few people with alot of money an small middle class (but growing) and a large population of people without alot.
cmrhm
Aug 5, 10 1:24 pm
Folks, How to post image here?
I would like to post building images developed by Gafisa from brazil and vanke from china.
From there, we might be able to compare these two country's potential in real estate development area.
but no spaces within the [ i m g ] taggy codey thingys
cmrhm
Aug 5, 10 2:44 pm
FRaC: but we need to hold the pictures on somewhere else then link to here, right?
This is so inconvenience. Is it because this forum don't have budget to do it same as others?
cmrhm
Aug 5, 10 2:54 pm
Also, normally what season do the Brazilian people like to purchase their house? For example, In Chicago & NY, the Spring usually a good time to do it.
Distant Unicorn
Aug 5, 10 3:01 pm
To the two people that keep making a division between "Brazil" and the "West"--
Are you a giant fucking nitwit? Seriously, South America is the West.
Talking about it like it some quintessentially foreign complicated place filled with brown people is exact what has shoeboxed the whole continent.
Distant Unicorn
Aug 5, 10 3:02 pm
P.S. Aside from Canada, Brazil is pretty much the only other white country there is in this side of the hemisphere.
Rusty!
Aug 5, 10 4:21 pm
Damn it unicorn! You've forgotten to take your pills this morning.
Sarika Singha
Aug 7, 10 6:30 am
Wow. I have not seen a better opportunity for us engineers!! A friend sent an application for his building design to Emerson Cup 2010 – an award competition that provides all green builders the chance to showcase their projects on a world class platform.
Apparently, projects and nominations are scrutinized by judges like Karan Grover, ace engineer Fernando S. Guevara (from the Philippines) and many more big names in the air-conditioning and refrigeration industry from India and South East Asia.
I am so going to send in my application too. Anyone interested to know more take a look at - www.facebook.com/TheEmersonCup .
Hurry, I read somewhere that the applications close by 20th August!
snook_dude
Aug 7, 10 12:42 pm
You might want to read this before jumping in!
Written by Ruban Selvanayagam
Tuesday, 27 July 2010 04:53
With the increasing amount of Brazilian and international property buyers acquiring pre-construction real estate (commonly referred to as 'na planta'); the numbers of related concerns have also witnessed growth.
Difficulties include how rights to the property are protected contractually; structural problems with the building itself; communal area issues and the long periods of time it can take to get matters dealt with by development companies and constructors.
As a result of the rising complaints that have arrived at IBEDEC - the Brazilian Institute of Consumer Study and Defense (Instituto Brasileiro de Estudo e Defesa das Relações de Consumo) - the organization recently compiled a list of potential issues that have emerged and how they can be subsequently dealt with.
It should be noted that the following grounds are to be considered as legal obligations on the part of developers and constructors and, any such breaches would be a contravention of Brazilian law (if not dealt with accordingly, buyers are therefore well within their rights to commence legal action).
Contractual Agreements
Undue or 'Hidden' Charges During Construction: the law stipulates that whilst a building is being constructed, payment installments can be subject to readjustment but only according to the national construction cost index of inflation (Índice Nacional de Custos da Construção, INCC).
Post-completion, an inflationary price correction may also be applicable using a national index measurement such as the INPC (Índice Nacional de Preços ao Consumidor, Index of Consumer Prices). Investors are therefore well advised to ensure that contractual purchase prices are unequivocally stated and any payment changes are anticipated and accounted for;
Capitalized Interest: any form of interest premium should be clearly stated in an entirely transparent manner and is strictly prohibited if the charge exceeds over 20 percent of the completion value of the property;
'Tie-in' Sales: obliging consumers to purchase fixtures or fittings is illegal (often an agreement that is tied in between the developer and a local supplier for mutual financial benefit);
Commanded Clauses: to oblige the purchaser to appoint a power of attorney (usually a lawyer) to represent his or her legal interest in the construction process is illegal (developers have been known to have certain 'relationships' with lawyers where important issues with regards to the build have been hidden from the buyer in a seemingly legal manner);
Lack of Full Incorporation: the document that states full details of the completed work must be formally registered prior to the sale of the property. Developers will be aware that an absence of this document will result in a fine of 50 percent of the value of the unit, so it is rarely something that is omitted;
Delivery of Building Delays: if any deadline stipulated in a contract is exceeded, the consumer is fully entitled to compensation. Contractual clauses that state flexibility of completion between 60 and 180 days post completion without any kind of penalty are illegal in the eyes of Brazilian law.
Due to regular occurrences of developers and construction companies making false promises of completion dates, the initiation of Law 7059/10 into the Brazilian Constitution will impose fines on projects that are delayed beyond 90 days of what is contractually stated;
Size Specifications: in the majority of cases where units are sold on a price based on square feet or meter, any deviation should be stated to the purchaser and, if there is less than originally stated, compensatory procedures should be expected;
Major Issues in Building Structure
Most developers would adhere to strict and efficient construction standards but there are occasions where poor quality structural workmanship has been undertaken. Whilst the majority of the following issues can be checked prior to signing any kind of contract, they do not often become apparent until close to the completion point.
The high standards place upon the ABNT (Associação Brasileira de Normas Técnicas, the Brazilian Association of Technical Standards) on the construction of buildings will mean that, legally, formal registration will not be permitted if they are not adhered to - which effectively protects the buyers rights.
However, should any of the following appear, it is advisable to primarily contact the developer to discuss how the problem will be resolved and, if there is no recourse from this route, seek legal assistance:
Cracks: cracks in plaster can vary in their seriousness from a simple hairline to something more severe with the fundamental structure of the building (seek assistance from a qualified professional should this latter issue be the case);
Leaks / Water Infiltration: largely due to poor plastering, dry masonry, flashing, application of water-proofing, drainage, guttering and/or roofing;
Poor Acoustics: sound traveling very easily largely prompted by thin walls or lack of due care and intention of spatial awareness and internal architectural design;
Height Issues: your lawyer will insure that minimum limits laid out by the ABNT are adhered to, which will depend on the overall size of the building (this information should be clearly stated on the contract and can also be checked against the ABNT website);
Adhering to Pre-determined Specifications: the developer will ensure that any stated materials are definitively used throughout the construction process and not their inferior imitations (examples referred to include tiles, sinks, doors, cabinets and wiring);
Internal Sealing / Waterproofing Issues: faults in areas with regular contact with water should be well-sealed and protected for the long term to prevent rotting of fixtures, fittings and the overall structure of the unit;
Leveling of Floor: flooring that is not laid properly can cause a variety of issues including water infiltration and, more seriously, future structural problems for the entire building;
Inadequate Ventilation: units should be designed and constructed in a manner that allows for air to circulate freely and easily - this would naturally include windows and air vents (of particular importance in Brazil's generally hotter climates);
Fully Functional Hydraulic System: a problem that particularly occurs in the larger multi-story buildings and can cause blockages and utility supply issues when not installed and/or scaled in the correct manner.
Communal Area Issues
As with any structural issues with the building, similar problems can occur in shared spaces. IBEDEC has pointed out that in the large majority of cases where building residents have collectively stated their disgruntlement, a problem is usually fixed relatively quickly and easily.
Elevator Provision: depending on the size of the development, standards in terms of lift capacity will apply particularly at busy times of the day such as mornings and evenings (this would also include provision for those with mobility issues). Your lawyer will be able to supply a reference to the ABNT standards in this regard;
Traffic Flow: adequate access must be in place to allow for the ease of car movement, particularly at busy times of the day. Your lawyer will be able to indicate ABNT standards, depending on the size of the development and the number of other apartments;
Garage Size: the ABNT also has indicated minimum garage sizes to be met in the construction process, depending on the size of the development;
Existence of Supplementary Facilities Upon Completion: there have been occasions where facilities promised prior to the sale have not been delivered - examples include swimming pools; children play areas (with swings, slides, seesaws etc); sports courts; fitness centers and shared bathrooms. Compensatory measures are rightfully to be claimed against the developer should this situation occur;
Safety of Leisure Equipment / Supplementary Facilities: any installed facilities will compulsorily need to adhere to healthy and safety regulations;
Appropriate Facilities for Staff: assurance that future employees within the development are catered to in the form of washing / bathing facilities, a dining area, adequate utility access and changing facilities;
Common Area Materials: any essential materials used in areas shared by residents must meet pre-stated specifications as well as those stipulated by ABNT regulations - examples includes flooring, railings, ramps, public seating and lighting;
Stormwater Disposal: all structures should have an efficient and well-installed system of plumbing, guttering, pumps and drainage facilities to deal with a range of adverse weather conditions;
Time Limits for Complaints
The length of time for an issue to be dealt with depends on the seriousness of the case. For most instances, the guaranteed stated time for a situation to be dealt with is 90 days.
After this period, if a problem is not dealt with under the Code of Consumer Protection (Código de Defesa do Consumidor), the buyer can request a complete termination of the contract (accompanied by a full refund of any monies deposited) or make a legally enforceable claim to receive a discount on the contractual purchase price.
Also, under the same code, consumers have a window of five years to be able to request compensation for subsequent material damages which have been caused as a result of poor construction (not by intentional / accidental damage).
Ruban Selvanayagam is a Brazil Real Estate and Land Specialist. For free e-books, state guides, up-to-date statistics, strategies, interviews, articles, weekly broadcasts and more please head to the Brazil Real Estate and Land Investment Guide via the following link: http://www.brazilinvestmentguide.com/brazil-property-real-estate-land/
cmrhm
Aug 7, 10 12:53 pm
Hawkin:
thanks for ur sharing info and that British article. It contains very useful info. Similar situation in china back to 2004. 4 years to go for Olympic and 6 years for world exhibition. Architectural record published an article about design business in china.
Now is brazil. In someway it seems brazil have better national income than china. Much more natural resource but again they aren't as diligent as the Chinese people. I guess they don't need to.
Snook: I will read ur posted article later. Thanks.
Hugoistique12
Aug 13, 10 5:45 am
Practices look abroad as double dip looms
Libya, Brazil and Egypt emerge as lucrative new markets as architects give up on Britain.
Fears the industry is now heading into a second recession are prompting a growing number of jittery practices to scour the globe in the hope of filling vacant UK order books.
This week the industry suffered a double blow with the news on Wednesday that the number of architects out of work is on the rise after 10 months of going backwards – with July’s figure of 1,175 up 11.5% on the previous month.
Just 24 hours earlier a RIBA trends survey of more than 200 practices predicted a double-dip recession was now “almost certain”.
A survey of leading firms carried out by BD has revealed that Brazil – one of the so-called BRIC countries along with Russia, India and China – is at the top of many wishlists, along with north African countries like Libya and Egypt.
In October a trade mission to Brazil, backed by UK Trade and Investment, is due to fly out for a week-long trip to Rio de Janeiro. Organisers told BD that four times as many firms had expressed interest in it than could go.
Dialogue Group director Jon Stock said it was advertised on the same day the Building Schools for the Future programme was cancelled last month. He added: “We ran a mission to India earlier this year and we’ve had double the interest in Rio. Practices are all looking to replace the work they’re going to lose here so they’re looking at international work.”
The delegation will meet local government officials and private developers and will be led by New London Architecture chairman Peter Murray.
Foster & Partners, Weston Williamson and HLM are among the firms eyeing Brazil while Aukett Fitzroy Robinson is to send a main board director to the country for a week-long fact-finding trip next month.
“British practices are much more adventurous than they were”
Peter Drummond
“It’s a very interesting and dynamic economy,” said Raul Curiel who will visit Rio, Sao Paulo and Recife.
“I’m keeping my eyes and expectations open. There are not many overseas companies in Brazil.”
Smaller firms are also looking at the South American country. Nick Lomax, the managing director of Brighton-based LCE Architects, which employs 55 people, said: “A medium-sized practice like ours can’t afford to take on many new markets at once, so we are focusing on Brazil because in our view it’s the best.”
The firm is already working in Libya, which has attracted the interest of larger firms as well. Woods Bagot recently picked up a mixed-use scheme in Misurata on the north-west coast, while BDP is working on 10 university schemes.
BDP chief executive Peter Drummond said: “British practices are much more adventurous than they were. We have a fantastic reputation abroad so aspirational clients looking for high-quality design come knocking.”
The firm has already worked in Turkey and Nigeria which, according to bank Goldman Sachs, are part of the 11 emerging economies with the most potential to grow. These also include Mexico, Indonesia and Vietnam.
Muriel Muirden, an economist with US consultant Aecom, which last week bought Davis Langdon, said architects were deserting weaker economies like the UK’s out of necessity.
“Economic growth and investor timidity in the UK and Europe has meant firms have to look further afield,” she added. “Dynamic economies like Brazil, China and India offer exciting opportunities for mixed-use development. Gulf money moving out to North Africa, notably Egypt is another opportunity.”
Libya looks to luxury
Camden-based architect Dexter Moren Associates starts on site later this year with its £100 million Wadi Alswani Resort, a 350-bed luxury hotel plus 45 villas on the Libyan coast.
The 18-year-old practice won the job after director Jacqui Labb went on a property trade mission to Libya last year with British Expertise. Half of the 20 participants were architects.
She said: “We were up against quite high-profile practices like Rogers Stirk Harbour, but very few are working there now. It’s a difficult market to crack. You can’t just fly in – you need to build up relationships and trust. The fact we specialised in a sector helped.”
Labb added: “With the last few years being rough in the UK, we have spent a lot of time and money in researching new markets and forging contacts abroad, and we identified Libya as one of these markets.
“It is a growing market and, from our experience over the last year, it is a region with huge potential – particularly in the tourism sector, which is based on historic and cultural interest.”
gill
Oct 5, 10 5:02 am
In my opinion invest money in real estate is the great option. It can also rise in value overtime and prove a good investment in the cash value of the investment property that you buy. That's why you need to be sure that you are ready to begin investing in real estate.
I wouldnt mind looking into a few landing strips.....
cmrhm
Oct 5, 10 1:39 pm
GFA.
stevesat
Jul 28, 15 2:15 pm
I would like to inform that now is the best time for investment in Brazil, where
I have some projects and studies, What is your area of interest for investments?
The main attraction here today is the dollar be on the rise in Brazil, To $ 1.00 US dollars here is R $ 3.14 reais This is an investment made here becomes three times larger. Example: The value of US $ 200,000.00 house outside Brazil, enough to buy three R $ 200,000.00 royal houses in the same pattern of construction in Brazil.
Other projects have the same equivalence due to the dollar's value.
Another example: Outside of Brazil the value Gold Grass is $ 37.67 US dollars, ie $ 37.67 you buy a gram of gold, with the same value you buy three grams of gold.
In other words, everything you buy one in your country, you buy 3 here with the same value.
I have interest in full partnership.
Non Sequitur
Jul 28, 15 2:34 pm
^sure it is.
JLC-1
Jul 28, 15 2:52 pm
all very promising, but for some reason , brazillionaires are buying real estate in the US, would love to know why they don't invest in their country.
snooker-doodle-dandy
Jul 28, 15 9:14 pm
Great Place to Visit.....but investing...well lets say it all sounds good on paper, but the reality is it is a crap shoot, unless you have a good solid Brazilian working with you. They can teach you the art of the deal....and will say you need eyes in the back of your head to make money...otherwise your just a guy with deep pockets.
Carrera
Jul 28, 15 9:39 pm
Have a relative that works for an international manufacturer, has factories all over the world, and when he travels to them there are only 2 countries where he has body guards (yes plural) – Brazil & Mexico. Wouldn’t invest in any place that requires a body guard to visit the investment, but that’s just me.
JLC-1
Jul 29, 15 10:07 am
nobody has heard about fordlandia and its failure?
Carrera
Jul 29, 15 12:17 pm
^ Love Ford history, Fordlandia is a Brazilian failure as much as a Ford failure… The Ford Motor Company invested $20 million in Fordlandia, and in 1945 sold it back to the Brazilian government for $244,200. $20 million in infrastructure sitting on one of the greatest river systems in the world….handed to them and they did nothing with it. (There are other examples)
Theodore Roosevelt predicted the great river system could be harnessed to create “populous manufacturing communities.” But when Roosevelt returned from his Amazon expedition of 1914 he declared the jungle to be “sinister and evil, a place inimical to man”. Maybe that sums it up.
Anyone have experience with the local housing market? I know some firms like perkins & will used to have a group working on brazil project. The current president Lulu is working on building one million cheap housing for the low class people there. brazil population is very young comparing to US/China. Their middle class is growing rapidly.
My main investment tool would be buying their real estate firm stocks like GFA.
Your comments are welcome.
'low class' people?
Sorry. Low income people. Just checked, the number is 1M low income houses.
Thats a question for the pimp... not the whore
why? envy their potential?
I think Brazil has huge potential and would suggest any large firm look there over the cliche China & India. That said, I've read that's its very hard to break into the Brazil market. Start a firm there and you pretty much have to let local run it. That type of regulation makes it difficult. But if you can do it, there's a boat load of potential.
But brazil country's income is diversified. oil, mining, tourisum. the government don't need to rely on the real estate. China is different, the urbanization pressure is huge. The government need to build enough infrastructure, hospital, schools and house for people to live, fuxk and work.
So you say Brazil is brighter than China, I don't get it. Their development is behind China for 10 years.
China has 关系 (GuanXi)...Brazil has regulations
Now it's debatable which is better for business but I'd side with with the far east any time.
A post script to begin with.
However accidental and Freudian slip like might be on the original poster's case, I was provoked by the use of "low class people" and wrote this partially wishful thinking and partially fact based ways of looking at the situation:
"Due to high demand we are experiencing for our low class market, specially in the know how and public service areas, we had to add a surcharge for reviewing international proposals.
We are to inform you that political criteria will be important in order to keep these things protected from speculative American style take overs.
Please be prepared to compete with domestic, highly skilled and technologically advanced professional building industry with years of experience and interaction with the community.
A lot has changed since our low class people took the matters in their hands and played drums for their American friends."
Thank you for your interest in our low class people and Brazilian markets.
I think anybody who is planning to get involve with Brazilian construction industry and its housing market, need to know that it is not like other top-down regulated markets like Dubai or China.
Brazil is a substantial size of a bottom up community architecture thriving examplary country with stark contrasts and co-existing economies. Brazil is a current place to launch much needed world wide version of "community architecture and urbanism" like you never seen before era with all functioning ways of plugging into existing systems, utilizing the available means, innovating and moving on faster.
There are other places similar like India, Turkey and there will be more of them in coming decades, years.
This is a huge shift in influence and community based power. There is an all important fill in the voids, capture the future race underway across the globe.
Getting increasingly non aligned and creating their own domestic pools and dynamics, independently establishing their own ways of distributing public wealth, having political will and informed public support or opposition to public policies, debates, and through their own unique political eco systems, they have developed processes and speeds on getting things done. There are a lot of criticism coming from United States, mostly accusations of drifting away from our old and tired post ww2 spiel of democracy, Fordian economic take overs and influence on their markets.
Main thing we forget tolook is that these societies are efficiently technological and highly aware of the process and delivery. Our Marshall Plan superiority is long over and we have not been creative and productive with our arrogant application of our hardware rich might.
I am more so inclined to think and wish that they might export their "survival in 21 st. century" goods and ideas to us, like Japan and Europe did with cars, because what they make is better than what we make.
We also need to do what they are doing for their "low class" people.
Orhan:
Thanks for your poetic illustration of current/future brazil.
SO you suggest their regulation is less prominent than the one china has?
Do you know which US firm has largest share of exposure in brazil? Do they do international competition for their gyms for Olympic and world cup?
I think it is conceptually safe to say, yes they would employ an international firm like Perkins + Will, but P+W must offer comparable price, delivery and know how to get it done locally. There are more companies who can supply what they did with less competition.
If you are not hands-on foreign investor capable of setting up your own teams of funding, production and marketing, you are basically in their hands of their doing whatever that might be.
To achieve success in public housing sector is usually a task of the local blood and government organizations, initiatives, investments, slogans such as "My Home, My Life" in Brazil and an organization like TOKI in Turkey. This is when housing, politics, labor, citizenry and life all work with humming concrete trucks pumping cement and workers' lives fulfilled. It chimes with Brazilian psyche, with what Turkish housing supply and demand can bear and with the scale of Chinese explosions.
As far as your question,
sure if there is something falls into their master plan, Brazilians would seek and award international trophy architects/firms.
Like Zaha Hadid was hired to do rubber shoes for Brazilian fashion company Melissa Plastic Dreams?
I don't know which architecture firm has a market share in Brazil but I sure like to see one of their firms, MMBB, doing a project in Los Angeles.
Yeah Orphan! Thanks for the blah blah, now tell us which beach we should start our invasion from. Things are gonna get all rapey down there! Tell your low class to wash their privates.
Problem with your local firms stance is they don't have something Amurikhhhan firms have: magic!
And nukes. 2 nukes per registered Architect.
I hate the microsoft auto correction of my name! Don't ask me why but Ahmrican firms should start the invasion from: here!
@Orhan:
Awwww. Poor penguins! California had a similar problem with washed up Canadian hippies not too long ago. We euthanized them instead of shipping them back to their natural habitat (cost factors, bankrupt state, etc...).
Sorry for misspelling your name. All me. No Microsoft involved.
On a slightly more serious note, I'm happy to hear all the recent talk of Brazil being the next emerging market. Soccer, sex, soccer, gang violence, soccer,... and finally economic growth!! It's about time! What makes it even better is that we won't be able to exploit but merely admire.
I quite agree with Orhan.
I read this article a while ago, and knowing Brazil a bit (I am native in Portuguese, so Brazil will be probably my next stop when I get sick of my current Asian location), I think it's the more accurate article regarding the construction industry in Brazil that I have read so far:
http://www.building.co.uk/sectors/global-markets/cracking-brazil/5000534.article
Really worth a look.
I find very deep diferences with Dubai and/or China.
- There are extremely good and fresh local architectural practices. Plus Brazil is one of the new hypes (specials in Wallpaper, Brazilian design everywhere, etc.) so I wouldn't be surprised they would expand abroad with "boutique" buildings. China is so 2000s by now :)
- Corporate Western practices in the way they are settled in SE Asia or the Middle East (like conquerors who are revealing the truth about architecture and engineering) are not welcomed. Most Brazilians would be reluctant to Western practices, specially to Anglo Saxon, notably to American practices. Note that the very few foreign practices that have new buildings in Brazil are basically from France (Portzamparc has office in Rio), Portugal (obviously historical links), and maybe some buildings from German/Swiss (also historical links, huge German community there) or Spanish offices.
- There is also its "GuanXi" but in a different way. At the end Chinese and US way of doing things are pretty similar, they are very focused in money and profit. Brazilian way of doing things is quite different. To get a contract, they would spend their time in a long lunch with wine rather than in a quick sandwich (as Chinese or Americans would do). Also US aggresive commerical style is not welcomed, and that would freak out anyone there.
Said that, I can only find a place for foreign practices in those two areas:
- Extremely high-tech/complicated buildings. There is a kind of small "Dubaitization" in big cities like Sao Paulo, Rio, etc. with global corporate / high-end high-rise buildings that maybe can have a place for foreign offices. Also stadiums for the Olympics or the World Cup.
- Starchitects. Always welcomed to design attention-seeker buildings (as Orhan as already pointed out).
So forget seeing Atkins, Perkins & Will, SOM or whoever designing anonymus office towers in Manaus or Salvador de Bahia, as they did in Doha or the latest provincial town in China.
I would see something more like Spain (obviously with economic differences, Brazil is a developing country and a huge market). During the construction boom a few years ago, virtually every starachitect design a few buildings there, but big corporate American practices were virtually outside the market.
cmrhm I could introduce you to my brother inlaw....he has his fingers on the Brazilian Real Estate Market. That is if you speak Portugese.
Hawking, many global architectural practices such as SOM and KPF have done several buildings in Brazil, its true though that the projects are always located in the finance districts of sao paulo or Rio... and the clients are mostly global banks, For SOM and such to really invade the Brazilian market, other than the business centers in SP, the Brazilian mentality towards foreign knowledge must change... Brazilians are to conservative, look at Sao Paulo and you will see that nearly half of the high rises are neo classical building... there is something wrong with that picture...
snook_dude: thank you. But I don't speak Portugese though.
Well dude I would say stay clear. You will find the climate difficult at best. If you speak Portugese then people are alot more receptive. because they know you know what your saying otherwise your a bag of wind. English as a second language is taught in Private Schools and some students like my niece and nephew to to the American School to learn english from American teachers, but it is not that common.
The money system in Brazil is very complex at best. There are a few people with alot of money an small middle class (but growing) and a large population of people without alot.
Folks, How to post image here?
I would like to post building images developed by Gafisa from brazil and vanke from china.
From there, we might be able to compare these two country's potential in real estate development area.
look at ze code at ze bottom, cmrhmrhmhm!!
[ i m g ]http://www.image.com/image.jpg[ / i m g ]
but no spaces within the [ i m g ] taggy codey thingys
FRaC: but we need to hold the pictures on somewhere else then link to here, right?
This is so inconvenience. Is it because this forum don't have budget to do it same as others?
Also, normally what season do the Brazilian people like to purchase their house? For example, In Chicago & NY, the Spring usually a good time to do it.
To the two people that keep making a division between "Brazil" and the "West"--
Are you a giant fucking nitwit? Seriously, South America is the West.
Talking about it like it some quintessentially foreign complicated place filled with brown people is exact what has shoeboxed the whole continent.
P.S. Aside from Canada, Brazil is pretty much the only other white country there is in this side of the hemisphere.
Damn it unicorn! You've forgotten to take your pills this morning.
Wow. I have not seen a better opportunity for us engineers!! A friend sent an application for his building design to Emerson Cup 2010 – an award competition that provides all green builders the chance to showcase their projects on a world class platform.
Apparently, projects and nominations are scrutinized by judges like Karan Grover, ace engineer Fernando S. Guevara (from the Philippines) and many more big names in the air-conditioning and refrigeration industry from India and South East Asia.
I am so going to send in my application too. Anyone interested to know more take a look at - www.facebook.com/TheEmersonCup .
Hurry, I read somewhere that the applications close by 20th August!
You might want to read this before jumping in!
Written by Ruban Selvanayagam
Tuesday, 27 July 2010 04:53
With the increasing amount of Brazilian and international property buyers acquiring pre-construction real estate (commonly referred to as 'na planta'); the numbers of related concerns have also witnessed growth.
Difficulties include how rights to the property are protected contractually; structural problems with the building itself; communal area issues and the long periods of time it can take to get matters dealt with by development companies and constructors.
As a result of the rising complaints that have arrived at IBEDEC - the Brazilian Institute of Consumer Study and Defense (Instituto Brasileiro de Estudo e Defesa das Relações de Consumo) - the organization recently compiled a list of potential issues that have emerged and how they can be subsequently dealt with.
It should be noted that the following grounds are to be considered as legal obligations on the part of developers and constructors and, any such breaches would be a contravention of Brazilian law (if not dealt with accordingly, buyers are therefore well within their rights to commence legal action).
Contractual Agreements
Undue or 'Hidden' Charges During Construction: the law stipulates that whilst a building is being constructed, payment installments can be subject to readjustment but only according to the national construction cost index of inflation (Índice Nacional de Custos da Construção, INCC).
Post-completion, an inflationary price correction may also be applicable using a national index measurement such as the INPC (Índice Nacional de Preços ao Consumidor, Index of Consumer Prices). Investors are therefore well advised to ensure that contractual purchase prices are unequivocally stated and any payment changes are anticipated and accounted for;
Capitalized Interest: any form of interest premium should be clearly stated in an entirely transparent manner and is strictly prohibited if the charge exceeds over 20 percent of the completion value of the property;
'Tie-in' Sales: obliging consumers to purchase fixtures or fittings is illegal (often an agreement that is tied in between the developer and a local supplier for mutual financial benefit);
Commanded Clauses: to oblige the purchaser to appoint a power of attorney (usually a lawyer) to represent his or her legal interest in the construction process is illegal (developers have been known to have certain 'relationships' with lawyers where important issues with regards to the build have been hidden from the buyer in a seemingly legal manner);
Lack of Full Incorporation: the document that states full details of the completed work must be formally registered prior to the sale of the property. Developers will be aware that an absence of this document will result in a fine of 50 percent of the value of the unit, so it is rarely something that is omitted;
Delivery of Building Delays: if any deadline stipulated in a contract is exceeded, the consumer is fully entitled to compensation. Contractual clauses that state flexibility of completion between 60 and 180 days post completion without any kind of penalty are illegal in the eyes of Brazilian law.
Due to regular occurrences of developers and construction companies making false promises of completion dates, the initiation of Law 7059/10 into the Brazilian Constitution will impose fines on projects that are delayed beyond 90 days of what is contractually stated;
Size Specifications: in the majority of cases where units are sold on a price based on square feet or meter, any deviation should be stated to the purchaser and, if there is less than originally stated, compensatory procedures should be expected;
Major Issues in Building Structure
Most developers would adhere to strict and efficient construction standards but there are occasions where poor quality structural workmanship has been undertaken. Whilst the majority of the following issues can be checked prior to signing any kind of contract, they do not often become apparent until close to the completion point.
The high standards place upon the ABNT (Associação Brasileira de Normas Técnicas, the Brazilian Association of Technical Standards) on the construction of buildings will mean that, legally, formal registration will not be permitted if they are not adhered to - which effectively protects the buyers rights.
However, should any of the following appear, it is advisable to primarily contact the developer to discuss how the problem will be resolved and, if there is no recourse from this route, seek legal assistance:
Cracks: cracks in plaster can vary in their seriousness from a simple hairline to something more severe with the fundamental structure of the building (seek assistance from a qualified professional should this latter issue be the case);
Leaks / Water Infiltration: largely due to poor plastering, dry masonry, flashing, application of water-proofing, drainage, guttering and/or roofing;
Poor Acoustics: sound traveling very easily largely prompted by thin walls or lack of due care and intention of spatial awareness and internal architectural design;
Height Issues: your lawyer will insure that minimum limits laid out by the ABNT are adhered to, which will depend on the overall size of the building (this information should be clearly stated on the contract and can also be checked against the ABNT website);
Adhering to Pre-determined Specifications: the developer will ensure that any stated materials are definitively used throughout the construction process and not their inferior imitations (examples referred to include tiles, sinks, doors, cabinets and wiring);
Internal Sealing / Waterproofing Issues: faults in areas with regular contact with water should be well-sealed and protected for the long term to prevent rotting of fixtures, fittings and the overall structure of the unit;
Leveling of Floor: flooring that is not laid properly can cause a variety of issues including water infiltration and, more seriously, future structural problems for the entire building;
Inadequate Ventilation: units should be designed and constructed in a manner that allows for air to circulate freely and easily - this would naturally include windows and air vents (of particular importance in Brazil's generally hotter climates);
Fully Functional Hydraulic System: a problem that particularly occurs in the larger multi-story buildings and can cause blockages and utility supply issues when not installed and/or scaled in the correct manner.
Communal Area Issues
As with any structural issues with the building, similar problems can occur in shared spaces. IBEDEC has pointed out that in the large majority of cases where building residents have collectively stated their disgruntlement, a problem is usually fixed relatively quickly and easily.
Elevator Provision: depending on the size of the development, standards in terms of lift capacity will apply particularly at busy times of the day such as mornings and evenings (this would also include provision for those with mobility issues). Your lawyer will be able to supply a reference to the ABNT standards in this regard;
Traffic Flow: adequate access must be in place to allow for the ease of car movement, particularly at busy times of the day. Your lawyer will be able to indicate ABNT standards, depending on the size of the development and the number of other apartments;
Garage Size: the ABNT also has indicated minimum garage sizes to be met in the construction process, depending on the size of the development;
Existence of Supplementary Facilities Upon Completion: there have been occasions where facilities promised prior to the sale have not been delivered - examples include swimming pools; children play areas (with swings, slides, seesaws etc); sports courts; fitness centers and shared bathrooms. Compensatory measures are rightfully to be claimed against the developer should this situation occur;
Safety of Leisure Equipment / Supplementary Facilities: any installed facilities will compulsorily need to adhere to healthy and safety regulations;
Appropriate Facilities for Staff: assurance that future employees within the development are catered to in the form of washing / bathing facilities, a dining area, adequate utility access and changing facilities;
Common Area Materials: any essential materials used in areas shared by residents must meet pre-stated specifications as well as those stipulated by ABNT regulations - examples includes flooring, railings, ramps, public seating and lighting;
Stormwater Disposal: all structures should have an efficient and well-installed system of plumbing, guttering, pumps and drainage facilities to deal with a range of adverse weather conditions;
Time Limits for Complaints
The length of time for an issue to be dealt with depends on the seriousness of the case. For most instances, the guaranteed stated time for a situation to be dealt with is 90 days.
After this period, if a problem is not dealt with under the Code of Consumer Protection (Código de Defesa do Consumidor), the buyer can request a complete termination of the contract (accompanied by a full refund of any monies deposited) or make a legally enforceable claim to receive a discount on the contractual purchase price.
Also, under the same code, consumers have a window of five years to be able to request compensation for subsequent material damages which have been caused as a result of poor construction (not by intentional / accidental damage).
Ruban Selvanayagam is a Brazil Real Estate and Land Specialist. For free e-books, state guides, up-to-date statistics, strategies, interviews, articles, weekly broadcasts and more please head to the Brazil Real Estate and Land Investment Guide via the following link: http://www.brazilinvestmentguide.com/brazil-property-real-estate-land/
Hawkin:
thanks for ur sharing info and that British article. It contains very useful info. Similar situation in china back to 2004. 4 years to go for Olympic and 6 years for world exhibition. Architectural record published an article about design business in china.
Now is brazil. In someway it seems brazil have better national income than china. Much more natural resource but again they aren't as diligent as the Chinese people. I guess they don't need to.
Snook: I will read ur posted article later. Thanks.
Practices look abroad as double dip looms
Libya, Brazil and Egypt emerge as lucrative new markets as architects give up on Britain.
Fears the industry is now heading into a second recession are prompting a growing number of jittery practices to scour the globe in the hope of filling vacant UK order books.
This week the industry suffered a double blow with the news on Wednesday that the number of architects out of work is on the rise after 10 months of going backwards – with July’s figure of 1,175 up 11.5% on the previous month.
Just 24 hours earlier a RIBA trends survey of more than 200 practices predicted a double-dip recession was now “almost certain”.
A survey of leading firms carried out by BD has revealed that Brazil – one of the so-called BRIC countries along with Russia, India and China – is at the top of many wishlists, along with north African countries like Libya and Egypt.
In October a trade mission to Brazil, backed by UK Trade and Investment, is due to fly out for a week-long trip to Rio de Janeiro. Organisers told BD that four times as many firms had expressed interest in it than could go.
Dialogue Group director Jon Stock said it was advertised on the same day the Building Schools for the Future programme was cancelled last month. He added: “We ran a mission to India earlier this year and we’ve had double the interest in Rio. Practices are all looking to replace the work they’re going to lose here so they’re looking at international work.”
The delegation will meet local government officials and private developers and will be led by New London Architecture chairman Peter Murray.
Foster & Partners, Weston Williamson and HLM are among the firms eyeing Brazil while Aukett Fitzroy Robinson is to send a main board director to the country for a week-long fact-finding trip next month.
“British practices are much more adventurous than they were”
Peter Drummond
“It’s a very interesting and dynamic economy,” said Raul Curiel who will visit Rio, Sao Paulo and Recife.
“I’m keeping my eyes and expectations open. There are not many overseas companies in Brazil.”
Smaller firms are also looking at the South American country. Nick Lomax, the managing director of Brighton-based LCE Architects, which employs 55 people, said: “A medium-sized practice like ours can’t afford to take on many new markets at once, so we are focusing on Brazil because in our view it’s the best.”
The firm is already working in Libya, which has attracted the interest of larger firms as well. Woods Bagot recently picked up a mixed-use scheme in Misurata on the north-west coast, while BDP is working on 10 university schemes.
BDP chief executive Peter Drummond said: “British practices are much more adventurous than they were. We have a fantastic reputation abroad so aspirational clients looking for high-quality design come knocking.”
The firm has already worked in Turkey and Nigeria which, according to bank Goldman Sachs, are part of the 11 emerging economies with the most potential to grow. These also include Mexico, Indonesia and Vietnam.
Muriel Muirden, an economist with US consultant Aecom, which last week bought Davis Langdon, said architects were deserting weaker economies like the UK’s out of necessity.
“Economic growth and investor timidity in the UK and Europe has meant firms have to look further afield,” she added. “Dynamic economies like Brazil, China and India offer exciting opportunities for mixed-use development. Gulf money moving out to North Africa, notably Egypt is another opportunity.”
Libya looks to luxury
Camden-based architect Dexter Moren Associates starts on site later this year with its £100 million Wadi Alswani Resort, a 350-bed luxury hotel plus 45 villas on the Libyan coast.
The 18-year-old practice won the job after director Jacqui Labb went on a property trade mission to Libya last year with British Expertise. Half of the 20 participants were architects.
She said: “We were up against quite high-profile practices like Rogers Stirk Harbour, but very few are working there now. It’s a difficult market to crack. You can’t just fly in – you need to build up relationships and trust. The fact we specialised in a sector helped.”
Labb added: “With the last few years being rough in the UK, we have spent a lot of time and money in researching new markets and forging contacts abroad, and we identified Libya as one of these markets.
“It is a growing market and, from our experience over the last year, it is a region with huge potential – particularly in the tourism sector, which is based on historic and cultural interest.”
In my opinion invest money in real estate is the great option. It can also rise in value overtime and prove a good investment in the cash value of the investment property that you buy. That's why you need to be sure that you are ready to begin investing in real estate.
Brazil Property
I wouldnt mind looking into a few landing strips.....
GFA.
I would like to inform that now is the best time for investment in Brazil, where
I have some projects and studies,
What is your area of interest for investments?
The main attraction here today is the dollar be on the rise in Brazil,
To $ 1.00 US dollars here is R $ 3.14 reais
This is an investment made here becomes three times larger.
Example: The value of US $ 200,000.00 house outside Brazil, enough to buy three
R $ 200,000.00 royal houses in the same pattern of construction in Brazil.
Other projects have the same equivalence due to the dollar's value.
Another example: Outside of Brazil the value Gold Grass is $ 37.67 US dollars,
ie $ 37.67 you buy a gram of gold, with the same value
you buy three grams of gold.
In other words, everything you buy one in your country, you buy 3 here with the same value.
I have interest in full partnership.
^sure it is.
all very promising, but for some reason , brazillionaires are buying real estate in the US, would love to know why they don't invest in their country.
Great Place to Visit.....but investing...well lets say it all sounds good on paper, but the reality is it is a crap shoot, unless you have a good solid Brazilian working with you. They can teach you the art of the deal....and will say you need eyes in the back of your head to make money...otherwise your just a guy with deep pockets.
Have a relative that works for an international manufacturer, has factories all over the world, and when he travels to them there are only 2 countries where he has body guards (yes plural) – Brazil & Mexico. Wouldn’t invest in any place that requires a body guard to visit the investment, but that’s just me.
nobody has heard about fordlandia and its failure?
^ Love Ford history, Fordlandia is a Brazilian failure as much as a Ford failure… The Ford Motor Company invested $20 million in Fordlandia, and in 1945 sold it back to the Brazilian government for $244,200. $20 million in infrastructure sitting on one of the greatest river systems in the world….handed to them and they did nothing with it. (There are other examples)
Theodore Roosevelt predicted the great river system could be harnessed to create “populous manufacturing communities.” But when Roosevelt returned from his Amazon expedition of 1914 he declared the jungle to be “sinister and evil, a place inimical to man”. Maybe that sums it up.
it still exist as a minor shipping center
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fordl%C3%A2ndia+-+PA,+Brazil/@-3.8957954,-55.3985352,296139m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x928a9dffa948f081:0x20a49402e7350c18!6m1!1e1