Is anyone else in Chicago getting irritated over the non-stop applauding surrounding this Tigerman guy? He's like a self appointed archi-God, keeper of the Chicago legacy when in fact, I'd say He's more the destruction of it if anything.
Hes like the epitome of archi babbling cartoon scribblers. Ive heard horrendous stories from my professors when I was at UIC about his mechanical apptitude which i cant repeat for not to slander, but looking at this man's body of work, who is it thats praising this childish design? Is there like a cabal of pissey intelectuals from the 60's running Chicago's architecture scene or rather lack there of? Can anyone explaine why since I was aware of architecture, Ive always heard this annoying rining in my ears and wanty to know why this voice? And why wont it go away already?
I would say that Chicago has more to worry about than Stanley Tigerman. Luckily for Chicago, Stanley Tigerman is basically isolated to Chicago. At least he isn't representative of Chciago architecture abroad.
I will be completely honest. I hate Chicago (based on my experiences). But, I think it is sad for the sake of Chicago that the name Stanley Tigerman comes up when people are talking about the best architects in Chicago.
I have a stack of architectural records from the 1960s and I flip through them now and then to see what was happening. There was some great work done in Chicago: George Schipporeit's Lake Point Tower, Bertrand Goldberg's Marina Towers and Mies's Neunationale Galerie (which was designed in Chicago). BUt there are three projects by Tigerman that stand out in the magazine: one is a Miesian courthouse, another a super structure like something the Japanese were doing and the last is some plain town houses that were built in Old Town. The town houses were the only realized work. But Tigerman got a lot of press for these other projects. He used that press to get a lot of real mediocre work built. But I think part of the problem is that faced by all of us. We are trying to make Architecture out of projects where the budget is either far to small or a developer-client who really doesn't care. But because Tigerman never entered and won any big name competitions and his practice was mainly built up around himself (and not part of a team effort like Piano or Foster), the scope of the work was very limited. Look at the PoMo top on the highrise in Uptown or the pseudo-Louis Kahn parking garage at North and Wells.--it's derivative and hack-like.
His better stuff is the school for the blind on Roosevelt whose rationale is more than a little preposterous or the penis in the Anti-Cruelty Society facade.
Didn't Tigerman also do that silly-looking parking garage on Lake Street just east of Wabash? No matter what else he may have done in his career, I'll never forgive him for that one.
UIC under King Stanley's reign was a pretty brutal place. There were real favorites that got a lot of attention/favors and then everyone else was left to flail in the wind. Some students got together in secret and wrote a journal called "Excluded." Does anyone remember it?
Even though the architecture is trite and cartoonish, I find this clubby atmosphere surrounding these guys and gals to be a bit pretentious.
The previous generation of city architects may have been cluuby to, but I think they were much more expressive of the Chicago way, more formal and structural in their approach to problem solving, esspecially downtown.
But with the Tigerman gang, their focus on the vernacular is overstated, its like people want to somehow hitch the reivigoration of neighborhood living an urban dwellers to these folks but really, wouldnt people have rediscovered the local anyways? And does puting siding and outlining the eaves and facia make a good building?
I will say this for Stanley, he has passed up some high priced comissions to take on more socially conscious projects, such as the newly completed Pacific Garden Mission homeless shelter
And a long time ago, he made a building shaped like male genetalia in plan
it looks like venturi threw up after masturbating. the interior works well though with the indoor courtyard to walk around dogs. we adopted our first from there.
For those who've been practicing here - dont you feel like theres the tigerman crowd, monopolizing the "creative" archishphere, and then the everyday architecture businesspeople doing there thing quietly without note - mostly because a) there not recognized usually unless there subserviant to the acedmic/ theory group of critics, lectures and Tigerman, B) The critical group seems quick to dismiss developer driven architects
I should add - I do feel like some of the better buildings recently have come from the developer driven designs for midrise housing, simple and clean - like Smithfield's Oak St. project by Booth, also Booth's State St. building ( I hope theres no Booth/ Tigerman connect or my theory is shot)
Somewhere someone published a "family tree" of chicago architets showing who worked for who and tried to make this lineage - it was about one of the most pompous ass things Ive ever seen seemingly trying to create this royalty bloodline - its thinking like this that has destroyed the Chicago school I fear.
I should add - I do feel like some of the better buildings recently have come from the developer driven designs for midrise housing, simple and clean - like Smithfield's Oak St. project by Booth, also Booth's State St. building ( I hope theres no Booth/ Tigerman connect or my theory is shot)
Most of this stuff isn't really noteworthy. It's just work. And that's fine. Helmut's apt tower next to the Pritzker Military library is a notch or two above these projects.
Carol Ross Barney's firm has done some nice work.
It would be fun to work at that scale. Hopefully one of these days...
The trick to that scale is simplicity. About the only thing that makes Jahns building any different than booths is the glazing budget. ( although the floor plans are remarkably simple and allow for easy multiple combo units by buyers, and has one hell of an exspensive postensioned slab system - I have no idea why or who would pay for that)
that is a nice building...remarkably transparent and thin.
Im excited to see what it will look like once the blinds are in and the place is occupied... i think it will turn out to be a pretty vibrant building.
But back to the tigerman - see why is it that a discussion of Chicago architects always turns to Tigerman? He didnt break the box, things ebb and flow and dont need a cheerleader to make so. Why not Hulmut? Why not Booth? Booth seems to have nurtured many more practicing architects than anyone else.
the slabs are also quite thin...
people pay for it evil cause Jahn is of some considerable fame. His face and name are all over all Murphy/Jahn's projects because marketing teams are selling his starchitect reputation as much as they are selling the buildings he does.
Though hes is obviously not on the same plane as Ghery or the like, there is still a huge portion of his success now based on clients 'Wanting a Jahn' especially after the success of the
hes doing good work... his best work of his career right now i think.
His best projects are on the boards now in the middle east, china and europe... unfortunately not too much in the states beyond this, a project in vegas and in new york which is quite similar to this
There's a big condo tower by DeStefano being built down the street at Illinois and McClurg that also uses post-tensioning. I don't think it's that uncommon in reinforced concrete high-rise construction.
I actually have to agree with EP for once... I think Helmut Jahn is far more innovative than Tigerman, and (along with Ralph Johnson of Perkins+Will and maybe a couple others) possibly one of the last good modernists of the Chicago School tradition. It's a shame he hasn't gotten more local projects in recent years, as I think his design sensibility has matured a great deal since his Flash Gordon days.
I've worked with people who studied under Tigerman at UIC, and they had mixed feelings about him. They felt that he'd really go out of his way for students who showed initiative and talent, but he'd make life a living hell for students that he felt didn't measure up. One of my project managers at my last job mentioned that Tigerman went to bat for her in a big way when another professor was apparently trying to steal some of her design work.
On the other hand, he left the UIC curriculum in shambles, and apparently mis-managed the school's finances in a horrible way. They were just beginning to clean up the mess he left behind when I started at UIC in 1995, and it wasn't a happy place to be. Looking back, my only regret is that I didn't transfer out much sooner than I did.
or those who've been practicing here - dont you feel like theres the tigerman crowd, monopolizing the "creative" archishphere, and then the everyday architecture businesspeople doing there thing quietly without note - mostly because a) there not recognized usually unless there subserviant to the acedmic/ theory group of critics, lectures and Tigerman, B) The critical group seems quick to dismiss developer driven architects
I hardly ever hear anything about him. I know nothing about his buildings, nothing about his firm, never hear anyone talking about either him or his work, and have yet to meet a single person who's worked for him and / or cares enough about him to even mention his name.
I must not move in the same circle as you do, evilp, but I can honestly say he hasn't even made a blip on my Chicago horizon, not once. I just don't even hear his name bandied about, like you do Ronan, Krueck&Sexton, or what have you. I can say that I was surprised to see his name on the UIC lecture list this past semester, and that's about all I've seen or heard of him, and no one I know went to that lecture. My feeling is that Chicago is loooong over him... we have a lot of new talent coming up here... feels like the city's gonna hit another design stride in 3-5 years...
First of all, I do not think that Helmut's work can seriously be discussed on a theoretical level. I think his work is fair, at best. But the worst is that SRO building.
Secondly, as much as everyone seems to dislike Tigerman, I think it is important to remember that without architecture that people deem "poor" or "ugly" we would not be able to have a consequent discussion. His work (more importantly, his body of work) is essential in the entire discussion of good/bad (however you may choose to quantify that) architecture. Therefore, we must appreciate that someone is executing theoretical work, albiet on a level that most deem sub-par.
did most of you chicago archinecters go to iit? i love how you guys can have a normal conversation about post-tensioning. i was visiting crown over the summer and ran into an iit student who gave me a mini-tour of the campus. kid was so technical i could barely understand half of what he was explaining. iit grads rule!
First of all, I do not think that Helmut's work can seriously be discussed on a theoretical level
I gave the Jahn building as an example of an elegant, moderately complex example of a new highrise. Ben Nicholson's work at IIT is an attempt at theory in Chicago. I prefer the work Sidney Robinson did with his students. He walked his students through the rigorous process by architecture and theory can work in tandem. Architecture is a big tent and beautifully detailed machines for living and making money are a flavor of architecture. But poor work in any category is just that.
we must appreciate that someone is executing theoretical work, albiet on a level that most deem sub-par That's like saying that you should be grateful that someone is passing off bad fast food Mexican as Frontera Grill.
You are right. He's gone and it's time to move on...
There are three (relatively) new highrises that I think are worthy of any attention. Here's a Sketchup model of one:
Nice example... I was a student intern at Perkins+Will while that project was being designed, and it was exciting to watch. (I wish I could say I worked on that project, but I wasn't so fortunate.)
Funny thing is, everybody in the office seemed convinced that the project would never actually get built, so I think that gave the design team a certain sense of freedom to have some fun with the project.
Tigerman has a strong personality, and by "strong personality" I mean he's known for being an asshole. I knew a former employee of Tigerman McCurrey that worked for him back in the late 80s, and he said that people in the office always wrote "Fuck You Stanley" on a piece of the model that was hidden from view and unlikely to be discovered without dismantling the whole thing. It takes a special person to earn that kind of admiration from his employees!
Myriam - I believe Ronan has a direct Tigerman link. A lot of the new wave is Tigerman connected.
LIG - its not unusual in older high rise residential to post tension the beams but tensioning slabs is very rare outside of parking decks in a high rise. Ive been trying to figure it out for a year when I saw them grouting the holes - is it for column span? Is it purely asthetic to get a 4" slab line? Does all those 2" saved add up to another floor in the same amount of height? Whats the deal, nectors want to know! Anyone at M/J got the hook up?
my best guess, knowing M/J is that post tensioning of the slabs is solely to minimize the structure. minimized the slab lines on the facade, extend distances between columns, open up the plans and views.
Any height gained by limiting the thickness of the slab would likely be a post rationalized reason to convince the client to pursue this... as im sure the primary reason for such a decision is the minimizing of structure.
Which, i must be honest, when you see the thing live, seems well worth it... the slabs are impossibly thin.
As for tigerman, i agree with Myriam that i really never hear him talked about. Im guessing that hes talked about in UIC circles because he used to run the school, but out side of that, his name has little to no cache.
The P/W Skybridge project is nice, but their Contemporaine is absolutely my favorite mid rise in the city... really beautiful building.
on P/W quickly,
they too have some fantastic projects on the boards. i have a few friends in their office and every time i go to visit them, im shown another project in the works which seems better than the last. Though Ralph Johnson isnt quite famous, i would venture a guess that if he can get just 2 or 3 of the projects in the P/W chicago office built, his name will be out there on a par with any other in chicago (if it isnt already).
evil as for ronan's tigerman connection. He might have a UIC connection from the past as i believe he and Garafalo are friends/acquaintances? But as of now, hes a prof at IIT.
Chicago's Shame
Is anyone else in Chicago getting irritated over the non-stop applauding surrounding this Tigerman guy? He's like a self appointed archi-God, keeper of the Chicago legacy when in fact, I'd say He's more the destruction of it if anything.
Stan Tigerman
Hes like the epitome of archi babbling cartoon scribblers. Ive heard horrendous stories from my professors when I was at UIC about his mechanical apptitude which i cant repeat for not to slander, but looking at this man's body of work, who is it thats praising this childish design? Is there like a cabal of pissey intelectuals from the 60's running Chicago's architecture scene or rather lack there of? Can anyone explaine why since I was aware of architecture, Ive always heard this annoying rining in my ears and wanty to know why this voice? And why wont it go away already?
And what group handz out a "topaz" medal? I swear, frigg'n archi's
I would say that Chicago has more to worry about than Stanley Tigerman. Luckily for Chicago, Stanley Tigerman is basically isolated to Chicago. At least he isn't representative of Chciago architecture abroad.
tiger man
yeah...i'm scared too
I thought this was a post about The Bears.
I will be completely honest. I hate Chicago (based on my experiences). But, I think it is sad for the sake of Chicago that the name Stanley Tigerman comes up when people are talking about the best architects in Chicago.
no - see my other post - neckbeard returns
I have a stack of architectural records from the 1960s and I flip through them now and then to see what was happening. There was some great work done in Chicago: George Schipporeit's Lake Point Tower, Bertrand Goldberg's Marina Towers and Mies's Neunationale Galerie (which was designed in Chicago). BUt there are three projects by Tigerman that stand out in the magazine: one is a Miesian courthouse, another a super structure like something the Japanese were doing and the last is some plain town houses that were built in Old Town. The town houses were the only realized work. But Tigerman got a lot of press for these other projects. He used that press to get a lot of real mediocre work built. But I think part of the problem is that faced by all of us. We are trying to make Architecture out of projects where the budget is either far to small or a developer-client who really doesn't care. But because Tigerman never entered and won any big name competitions and his practice was mainly built up around himself (and not part of a team effort like Piano or Foster), the scope of the work was very limited. Look at the PoMo top on the highrise in Uptown or the pseudo-Louis Kahn parking garage at North and Wells.--it's derivative and hack-like.
His better stuff is the school for the blind on Roosevelt whose rationale is more than a little preposterous or the penis in the Anti-Cruelty Society facade.
There just isn't a lot there.
Don't forget about Milton Schwartz - an unsung hero of Chicago Architecture.
I have to admit The anti-cruelty society was the first vinyl-sided Type-IA building I had ever seen.
Didn't Tigerman also do that silly-looking parking garage on Lake Street just east of Wabash? No matter what else he may have done in his career, I'll never forgive him for that one.
half the shit he does I think he does for no other reason than to piss people of and be a contrarian.
Hey, look at it this way - at least he's retiring...
that's off, not of.
UIC under King Stanley's reign was a pretty brutal place. There were real favorites that got a lot of attention/favors and then everyone else was left to flail in the wind. Some students got together in secret and wrote a journal called "Excluded." Does anyone remember it?
"I have to admit The anti-cruelty society was the first vinyl-sided Type-IA building I had ever seen."
That's such the backhanded IIT compliment for a man who said that IIT was a sinking ship.
LiG, that's his! I never wanted to know, but you are right, that might be the worst building ever. ew... perhaps I should try and find a pic...
sorry, just had to rip this from google street.
off the topic, wonder what kind of tribe will have their last name tigerman?
Even though the architecture is trite and cartoonish, I find this clubby atmosphere surrounding these guys and gals to be a bit pretentious.
The previous generation of city architects may have been cluuby to, but I think they were much more expressive of the Chicago way, more formal and structural in their approach to problem solving, esspecially downtown.
But with the Tigerman gang, their focus on the vernacular is overstated, its like people want to somehow hitch the reivigoration of neighborhood living an urban dwellers to these folks but really, wouldnt people have rediscovered the local anyways? And does puting siding and outlining the eaves and facia make a good building?
heres the cruelty society bldg....
that's the one on lasalle right?
yes
I will say this for Stanley, he has passed up some high priced comissions to take on more socially conscious projects, such as the newly completed Pacific Garden Mission homeless shelter
And a long time ago, he made a building shaped like male genetalia in plan
thanks, ep. it's been awhile.
it looks like venturi threw up after masturbating. the interior works well though with the indoor courtyard to walk around dogs. we adopted our first from there.
Hmm... This isn't about the Cubs either huh?
classic.
Look at the above elevation of the Anti-Cruelty Society.
For those who've been practicing here - dont you feel like theres the tigerman crowd, monopolizing the "creative" archishphere, and then the everyday architecture businesspeople doing there thing quietly without note - mostly because a) there not recognized usually unless there subserviant to the acedmic/ theory group of critics, lectures and Tigerman, B) The critical group seems quick to dismiss developer driven architects
I should add - I do feel like some of the better buildings recently have come from the developer driven designs for midrise housing, simple and clean - like Smithfield's Oak St. project by Booth, also Booth's State St. building ( I hope theres no Booth/ Tigerman connect or my theory is shot)
Somewhere someone published a "family tree" of chicago architets showing who worked for who and tried to make this lineage - it was about one of the most pompous ass things Ive ever seen seemingly trying to create this royalty bloodline - its thinking like this that has destroyed the Chicago school I fear.
There's a wonderful discussion about bloodlines going on here.
Most of this stuff isn't really noteworthy. It's just work. And that's fine. Helmut's apt tower next to the Pritzker Military library is a notch or two above these projects.
Carol Ross Barney's firm has done some nice work.
It would be fun to work at that scale. Hopefully one of these days...
This was taken by heet_myser on Flickr.com. Nice job
The trick to that scale is simplicity. About the only thing that makes Jahns building any different than booths is the glazing budget. ( although the floor plans are remarkably simple and allow for easy multiple combo units by buyers, and has one hell of an exspensive postensioned slab system - I have no idea why or who would pay for that)
that is a nice building...remarkably transparent and thin.
Im excited to see what it will look like once the blinds are in and the place is occupied... i think it will turn out to be a pretty vibrant building.
lletdown - whats with the postensioning? Is that only for the parking levels? Outer bays?
But back to the tigerman - see why is it that a discussion of Chicago architects always turns to Tigerman? He didnt break the box, things ebb and flow and dont need a cheerleader to make so. Why not Hulmut? Why not Booth? Booth seems to have nurtured many more practicing architects than anyone else.
the slabs are also quite thin...
people pay for it evil cause Jahn is of some considerable fame. His face and name are all over all Murphy/Jahn's projects because marketing teams are selling his starchitect reputation as much as they are selling the buildings he does.
Though hes is obviously not on the same plane as Ghery or the like, there is still a huge portion of his success now based on clients 'Wanting a Jahn' especially after the success of the
German Post Tower
the IIT dorms,
and the Clybourn SRO
i dont know much about the postentioning in that building evil... sorry
I think hes a much representative of chicago's architectural attitude and spirit than the reigning folks
hes doing good work... his best work of his career right now i think.
His best projects are on the boards now in the middle east, china and europe... unfortunately not too much in the states beyond this, a project in vegas and in new york which is quite similar to this
frank was never a gq cover boy...
speakin of chicago shame, i will be there at the end of the month
Post-tensioning = greater distances between columns = greater plan flexibility
Post-tensioning = thinner floor slabs = lower floor-to-floor height = lower construction cost
There's a big condo tower by DeStefano being built down the street at Illinois and McClurg that also uses post-tensioning. I don't think it's that uncommon in reinforced concrete high-rise construction.
I actually have to agree with EP for once... I think Helmut Jahn is far more innovative than Tigerman, and (along with Ralph Johnson of Perkins+Will and maybe a couple others) possibly one of the last good modernists of the Chicago School tradition. It's a shame he hasn't gotten more local projects in recent years, as I think his design sensibility has matured a great deal since his Flash Gordon days.
I've worked with people who studied under Tigerman at UIC, and they had mixed feelings about him. They felt that he'd really go out of his way for students who showed initiative and talent, but he'd make life a living hell for students that he felt didn't measure up. One of my project managers at my last job mentioned that Tigerman went to bat for her in a big way when another professor was apparently trying to steal some of her design work.
On the other hand, he left the UIC curriculum in shambles, and apparently mis-managed the school's finances in a horrible way. They were just beginning to clean up the mess he left behind when I started at UIC in 1995, and it wasn't a happy place to be. Looking back, my only regret is that I didn't transfer out much sooner than I did.
I hardly ever hear anything about him. I know nothing about his buildings, nothing about his firm, never hear anyone talking about either him or his work, and have yet to meet a single person who's worked for him and / or cares enough about him to even mention his name.
I must not move in the same circle as you do, evilp, but I can honestly say he hasn't even made a blip on my Chicago horizon, not once. I just don't even hear his name bandied about, like you do Ronan, Krueck&Sexton, or what have you. I can say that I was surprised to see his name on the UIC lecture list this past semester, and that's about all I've seen or heard of him, and no one I know went to that lecture. My feeling is that Chicago is loooong over him... we have a lot of new talent coming up here... feels like the city's gonna hit another design stride in 3-5 years...
First of all, I do not think that Helmut's work can seriously be discussed on a theoretical level. I think his work is fair, at best. But the worst is that SRO building.
Secondly, as much as everyone seems to dislike Tigerman, I think it is important to remember that without architecture that people deem "poor" or "ugly" we would not be able to have a consequent discussion. His work (more importantly, his body of work) is essential in the entire discussion of good/bad (however you may choose to quantify that) architecture. Therefore, we must appreciate that someone is executing theoretical work, albiet on a level that most deem sub-par.
did most of you chicago archinecters go to iit? i love how you guys can have a normal conversation about post-tensioning. i was visiting crown over the summer and ran into an iit student who gave me a mini-tour of the campus. kid was so technical i could barely understand half of what he was explaining. iit grads rule!
I gave the Jahn building as an example of an elegant, moderately complex example of a new highrise. Ben Nicholson's work at IIT is an attempt at theory in Chicago. I prefer the work Sidney Robinson did with his students. He walked his students through the rigorous process by architecture and theory can work in tandem. Architecture is a big tent and beautifully detailed machines for living and making money are a flavor of architecture. But poor work in any category is just that.
we must appreciate that someone is executing theoretical work, albiet on a level that most deem sub-par That's like saying that you should be grateful that someone is passing off bad fast food Mexican as Frontera Grill.
You are right. He's gone and it's time to move on...
There are three (relatively) new highrises that I think are worthy of any attention. Here's a Sketchup model of one:
Nice example... I was a student intern at Perkins+Will while that project was being designed, and it was exciting to watch. (I wish I could say I worked on that project, but I wasn't so fortunate.)
Funny thing is, everybody in the office seemed convinced that the project would never actually get built, so I think that gave the design team a certain sense of freedom to have some fun with the project.
Tigerman has a strong personality, and by "strong personality" I mean he's known for being an asshole. I knew a former employee of Tigerman McCurrey that worked for him back in the late 80s, and he said that people in the office always wrote "Fuck You Stanley" on a piece of the model that was hidden from view and unlikely to be discovered without dismantling the whole thing. It takes a special person to earn that kind of admiration from his employees!
Myriam - I believe Ronan has a direct Tigerman link. A lot of the new wave is Tigerman connected.
LIG - its not unusual in older high rise residential to post tension the beams but tensioning slabs is very rare outside of parking decks in a high rise. Ive been trying to figure it out for a year when I saw them grouting the holes - is it for column span? Is it purely asthetic to get a 4" slab line? Does all those 2" saved add up to another floor in the same amount of height? Whats the deal, nectors want to know! Anyone at M/J got the hook up?
my best guess, knowing M/J is that post tensioning of the slabs is solely to minimize the structure. minimized the slab lines on the facade, extend distances between columns, open up the plans and views.
Any height gained by limiting the thickness of the slab would likely be a post rationalized reason to convince the client to pursue this... as im sure the primary reason for such a decision is the minimizing of structure.
Which, i must be honest, when you see the thing live, seems well worth it... the slabs are impossibly thin.
As for tigerman, i agree with Myriam that i really never hear him talked about. Im guessing that hes talked about in UIC circles because he used to run the school, but out side of that, his name has little to no cache.
The P/W Skybridge project is nice, but their Contemporaine is absolutely my favorite mid rise in the city... really beautiful building.
on P/W quickly,
they too have some fantastic projects on the boards. i have a few friends in their office and every time i go to visit them, im shown another project in the works which seems better than the last. Though Ralph Johnson isnt quite famous, i would venture a guess that if he can get just 2 or 3 of the projects in the P/W chicago office built, his name will be out there on a par with any other in chicago (if it isnt already).
evil as for ronan's tigerman connection. He might have a UIC connection from the past as i believe he and Garafalo are friends/acquaintances? But as of now, hes a prof at IIT.
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