ok, so a LOT of architects/interns complain that they don't get paid enough, but are you really TRYING to make more? The money's not just going to magically appear, you've got to go after it!
Step #1: ask for what you're worth. I just heard a kid straight out of school ask for $4,000 less than what I asked for (and got!) two years ago in the same position. I highly doubt the boss is just going to throw the extra $4k at the kid. If we hire him they'll offer what he asked for. And he'll be getting screwed. Is this the firm's fault for not paying more than a person asks for? Or is it their own fault for undervaluing themselves?
My pro-practice teacher in undergrad always told us that we'd get what we could ask for with a straight face, and I'm passing that on to y'all today because of the travesty I just overheard. You won't get what you don't ask for.
I love your point Rationalist, but Quiz is right...with the "starting" salary varying sooo much, it is difficult to know what to ask for w/out sounding like a jackass. With so many different years of relative experience and education- it's hard to even determine how much professional "experience" I have....
in my first year out of school, I asked for 40k in one interview and they didn't blink. In another interview, she literally gasped and suggested they pay more like $15/hr.
6 months later, I asked (at a new place) for 45k and it was received with a smug "we can do that"....leaving me feeling I should have asked for more.
Plus, with my varied internships, I can't even figure out how much experience I have.
ok, I admit that I posted this thread in a fit of indignation at hearing that, so I may have been a tad short-sighted. I've been hearing about new grads that make the same as I do or more and feeling a bit surly about it, so hearing this kid asking for less than I was making back when I was hired got me fired up on his behalf.
Quizzical, it IS a good question, and maybe that's the way our salaries are kept so low, is the practice of not having any sort of industry standard of what we're worth.
Someone I know recently changed jobs, and when being interviewed, she was literally asking for what she thought would be appropriate for her skill level, and to what she could contribute to any future employee. The number was far above what local firms considered "standard". Result: two offers, which included more responsibility and a 35% raise.
If your portfolio backs up what you are saying, and you are interviewing in a way that shows the benefits you can provide to an employee, most firms will be willing to pay what you ask (or as much as they can);
Rationalist is right..."the money's not just going to magically appear, you've got to go after it"
Last year, before going out on the market for the first time in more than a decade, I agonized over this same question. What am I worth?
I did all the research I could (cheaply, without coughing up for the AIA salary survey) --salary.com, archinect.com's salary survey (however unscientific it is, I did find it added useful data), and conversations with several colleagues either at my level, or in the position to hire.
This work was well worth the effort. I asked for (and got) 50% more than I thought I could get before I started out. No lie. Of course, this was also due to some negotiating. But Rationalist is right: find out how much you're worth (+/-), and ask for it!
So I've consistently asked for too little in job interviews because I was afraid they wouldn't offer me the job if I asked for too much. But I've had two experiences that taught me a lesson:
one was when i took a job at a New York firm and the woman who interviewed me got drunk at the xmas party and basically said that they were ready to offer me much more than they did. She said she was surprised at how low a number I asked for and that, in confidence, I should do my research better in the future. (I asked for $40,000 two years out of school.)
During the interview for my last job, the principal asked what I wanted to be paid. When I told him, he stood up, closed the door to his office, and offered me $10,000 more than that. He told me that he couldn't in good conscience give me the salary I asked for. But not everyone is that decent or honest. (I asked for $55,000 six years out of school.)
The moral? Ask for a higher number than you think you can get.
^^absolutely. I usually expect the firm to bargain me down, by $2k in a jr. position, by $5k in a senior position. So if I want $45,000 I ask for $47,000.
I had an interview once where I know that the reason I wasn't offered the job was because the salary I asked for was too high. Everything was going perfectly in the interview up until the moment that I was asked for my salary expectation. My response to that question tanked the interview.
That was a tricky situation, because I was interviewing in a region with considerably lower average salaries than the city I was working in at the time. I was aware of that, but felt that I wouldn't know what the high range was for that region unless I aimed high.
So when they asked the question I told them what I was currently making and also what I'd been offered by another firm in my home market. These numbers shocked them and I could tell right then that I'd just totally lost them. The firm owner told me very curtly that they weren't planning to go above a number that was about 20k less than what I'd just said. Then the office manager said "Of course it would probably be very difficult for you to maintain the lifestyle to which you're accustomed." And then I was promptly escorted out and wished a good trip back to where I'd come from...
I'm facing this same dilemma right now. I think I make a reasonable salary at my current gig here in Chicago, but I'm wondering how much better I could do when I move to NYC at the end of the month.
Last time I moved to NYC (from Philadelphia), I got a $10,000 bump in salary. I took a modest salary decrease when I moved back to Chicago, mainly because the cost of living is so much cheaper here, but now I'm making the exact figure in Chicago as I was making three years ago in NYC. All this time, though, I've had a nagging feeling that I've been asking for too little, as prospective employers have usually agreed to my number without so much as blinking. Somehow I'd feel better about my salary if my bosses-to-be had to sweat a little before making me an offer.
I have a rough idea of what I'll be asking for when I go back to New York (hopefully another $10k more than I'm making now), but like others here, I'm paranoid about asking for too little or too much.
first, make sure the position you're responding to really matches up with your skills. i've interviewed plenty of people who i haven't really been convinced they had the skills that we were looking and advertising for. if you throw out a high number in that situation, you're probably going to get a bad reaction.
second, recognize that we're in a pretty big boom time right now - there is a ton of work, everyone's busy, and when new projects come in, some firms will throw a higher salary out there just to get a warm body. don't automatically assume that it's a reflection of your skills (it may, it may not) and, don't automatically assume you'll get huge salary bumps each year afterwards. in fact, watch your butt. if it slows down, you may be the first out the door.
that said, if i have an interviewee who is woefully selling themselves short, yeah, we'll correct it. especially if they are good. i don't want them leaving if they think they're being shorted.
finally, yes, you can talk yourself out of a job. as pointed out on the raise thread, if you come in so much higher than my firm's standards, then i've got nowhere to negotiate from, because they'll be no way to bridge that gap.
lastly, as an employer, we do look at people's resumes. if it looks like you're hopping jobs every year (which seems to be the preferred method mentioned in this thread to bump the salary) and come in saying you're making some crazy salary (and you want a bump on top of that), then i'm probably going to pass. i don't need to run the risk of having you leave, yet again, in a year's time...
Another key point not yet mentioned: do whatever you can to get the firm to make the offer first. Avoid being the first one to name a number.
My new firm tried this with me (a reasonable request, but one which I politely declined). I told them what I'd been making previously (adjusted a bit higher, if you know what I mean), but said I'd prefer them to make an initial offer. THAT'S a good way to at least get in the ballpark of worth, I think. It may be way too low for you, in which case you can tell them so (nicely). Or, it may be higher than you expect, in which case you'll be pleasantly suprised.
Either way, do whatever you can to get them to start the negotiation.
A tale of three interviews in which I asked for the same number: Firm A balked at a number, Firm B said, "if you really think this would be a good fit, we can discuss your number," and Firm C offered me the number.
I guess one would look at it differently in my shoes....It would be how much money can I bring into the firm and well how much are they willing to part with. I guess that is part of being in the profession for awhile. Think I will stick to working with my wife for the time being. However I keep reading these articles about firms having a difficult time hiring people with skills.
what's a rembrandt worth? what's a bushel of wheat worth? the answer is the same for both.
"value = the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of the relevant facts."
in the end, "scarcity" and "specialness" makes all the difference in the world. we all tend to think our own talent and skills are "rare" and "special" (i.e. Rembrandt) - in the real world, most of us are fairly ordinary and average (i.e. the "bushel of wheat")
I know - that's hard to swallow, but it's true. and that's what determines what we're paid.
when assessing your "worth" you have to start with what firms are willing to pay for "average" in your community - that's where surveys come into play. buy (or find access to) the aia survey. look at salary.com. use the data you find here. that will inform your judgment. don't be cheap about this - $200 of data can mean literally thousands in pay.
then, be objective about where are relative to "average" - this is not Lake Woebegone - if you can't DEMONSTRATE something that clearly differentiates you from the rest of the pack, most firms will peg you at "average"
work at a defining a decent rationale - and, good luck
actually i've been finding them to be very helpful...but you do need to discuss what your skill level would be with others and figure out where you are placed on the bell curve that is supplied...i.e. don't just think you're going to be in the 95% unless you have something very special to offer.
in all honesty though, my situation is like this...
i graduated last may.... my year is coming up in about a week so im going to talk to my boss about a substantial raise. I dont get my OT and consistently work it, i contributed (1 of 3 people on the comp.) to the winning of a competition for a high rise office tower which we are now doing, was recognized over christmas with a bump up in title, and besides the raise everyone got over the holidays was not rewarded for my work so far, or my promotion (which is another issue entirely)
combine with all this, i make very little. Significantly less than many, many of my fellow grads. When i run the numbers, asking for 20% sounds laughable, but it turns out to be a very fair salary. Anyone ever asked for a raise that big? how is it best to approach it?
My biggest fear is that I'm overestimating my skills, and will end up not being as good as advertised. That's mostly why I didn't negotiate my current salary. A-it was more than I was expecting, and B-I didn't want to haggle and then come in and under perform.
i edit a newsletter and the next issue's theme is compensation. some of you guys have some great ideas about this - anyone interested in writing an article for a national publication about it? of course, it doesn't pay (the irony!), but it's a good chance to put your thoughts out there nonetheless.
Seems like it comes down to whether your potential boss is stingy or not.
I've had widely varying reactions to various salary requests during my career-- as it seems most people have. I don't know how much it's possible to generalize about salaries in certain cities.
My first job in NYC I made $24,000. But fellow graduates of mine made $55,000 in the same city. That's a huge disparity. How can we generalize?
I'm not old enough to worked through some really rough times in this business. Have heard stories of the late 70's early 80's being brutal for architects. Still meet many ex-architect's now in construction or prod reps that left arch in those times.
However, my experience was in the fall of 2001 when things weren't so great either. The stock markets were crashing and 9/11 had just happened. I was out job hunting at that time and entry level jobs with under 5 ys exp were few and far between. I was sending resumes and knocking on doors from Boston to Atlanta and DC to Seattle. Rarely did I get an interview. At most interviews I was told they didn't have a position yet but were "anticipating" things picking up. When I finally did get an offer I took it. You would've too. And it was low.
It's easy to talk about asking for good raises and starting salaries. However, sometimes when the jobs are limited you don't have that kind of luxury. Just something to think about since go-go good times for Architects don't last forever.
Aquapura brings up yet ANOTHER important point: the state of the economy (relative to urban development and building construction) at the time of job-hunting.
If the number of jobs drops significantly, so will the salaries offered.
ironicaly bad economic times can be great for interns. That period of mid 2000 - 2002 virtually all staff architects over 40 who were not in an equity position were purged from major firms around Chicago from my observations. In there wake came a flood of cad monkey grads with very limited knoweledge about how this all works - however if they knew the fickleness of the business and how hard it is to attract even mediocre clients, they'd shit their pants- especially if they saw how that laid 50 year old with a masters degree lives in a shithole house with broken gutters and with a cheating spouse and 3 mortages and a mound of debt from sending their alchoholic daughter to college where she returned fat, knocked up with no degree and now lives in the basement with her boyfriend who crashed your car after running over your dog.
its an agregated character type based on the sad stories of middle aged architects I've sat next to or worked for - a rational person would have taken one look at these folks and ran straight for the nearest business school.
not bitter at all - doing great in Chicago do to the vaccum left behind by the older ones - but I am always keeping my nose in the air for the next hint of a changing market that could take me out of the game
Aqua, you make a very good point. However, note that I did not title this thread "Ask for more money!", I titled it "Ask for what you're worth!" What your worth is, as quizzical noted, all relative. In tough times, one's worth is certainly less than when things are flush.
word rationalist - and by worth think value - although boring compared to renderings and working with the designer - a good mechanic is always in demand and a young one can get a little higher salary. Its one way to seperate yourself in the market. Face it - you wont be doing much design anyways till your name is on the letterhead
I think it's all about attitude - when I interview, I'm not suggesting that they are wonderful - I'm telling them that I'm wonderful & demanding that they explain why they are wonderful. If they can't meet my standards, then I'll walk.
This attitude, more than anything, results in higher offers (without me having to name a number) than you'd expect.
Don't act like an employee, act like an owner.
Oh yeah, and some regions are hotter than others, it pays to shop around a bit.
ummm...and I found that the AIA salary survey is out of date - you gotta multiply the numbers by a healthy amount of inflation...then add in the fact that for the 2005 survey the numbers are from like 2003...
and then consider that the market is hotter right now...and so the resulting number is a bit low...
example: AIA survey states that you are worth $10,000...then multiply by 1.05 to account for inflation:
"Our Store Managers, on average, have been with the company for over 13 years and average in excess of $100,000 in total compensation per year. In addition to the Store Manager position, there are three additional levels of restaurant management positions: 2nd Manager, 3rd Manager, and 4th Manager. Average annual compensation for these levels of management are: 2nd Managers - $50,000/year, 3rd Managers - $41,000/year, and 4th Managers - $33,000/year. In addition to cash compensation, all managers enjoy a comprehensive benefits package including paid vacations, a 401k program, and medical, dental, vision, and life and travel insurance coverage"
ask for what you're worth!
ok, so a LOT of architects/interns complain that they don't get paid enough, but are you really TRYING to make more? The money's not just going to magically appear, you've got to go after it!
Step #1: ask for what you're worth. I just heard a kid straight out of school ask for $4,000 less than what I asked for (and got!) two years ago in the same position. I highly doubt the boss is just going to throw the extra $4k at the kid. If we hire him they'll offer what he asked for. And he'll be getting screwed. Is this the firm's fault for not paying more than a person asks for? Or is it their own fault for undervaluing themselves?
My pro-practice teacher in undergrad always told us that we'd get what we could ask for with a straight face, and I'm passing that on to y'all today because of the travesty I just overheard. You won't get what you don't ask for.
ok ... tell us how we're to know what we're worth ?
I love your point Rationalist, but Quiz is right...with the "starting" salary varying sooo much, it is difficult to know what to ask for w/out sounding like a jackass. With so many different years of relative experience and education- it's hard to even determine how much professional "experience" I have....
agreed tumbles.
in my first year out of school, I asked for 40k in one interview and they didn't blink. In another interview, she literally gasped and suggested they pay more like $15/hr.
6 months later, I asked (at a new place) for 45k and it was received with a smug "we can do that"....leaving me feeling I should have asked for more.
Plus, with my varied internships, I can't even figure out how much experience I have.
ok, I admit that I posted this thread in a fit of indignation at hearing that, so I may have been a tad short-sighted. I've been hearing about new grads that make the same as I do or more and feeling a bit surly about it, so hearing this kid asking for less than I was making back when I was hired got me fired up on his behalf.
Quizzical, it IS a good question, and maybe that's the way our salaries are kept so low, is the practice of not having any sort of industry standard of what we're worth.
Someone I know recently changed jobs, and when being interviewed, she was literally asking for what she thought would be appropriate for her skill level, and to what she could contribute to any future employee. The number was far above what local firms considered "standard". Result: two offers, which included more responsibility and a 35% raise.
If your portfolio backs up what you are saying, and you are interviewing in a way that shows the benefits you can provide to an employee, most firms will be willing to pay what you ask (or as much as they can);
Rationalist is right..."the money's not just going to magically appear, you've got to go after it"
Last year, before going out on the market for the first time in more than a decade, I agonized over this same question. What am I worth?
I did all the research I could (cheaply, without coughing up for the AIA salary survey) --salary.com, archinect.com's salary survey (however unscientific it is, I did find it added useful data), and conversations with several colleagues either at my level, or in the position to hire.
This work was well worth the effort. I asked for (and got) 50% more than I thought I could get before I started out. No lie. Of course, this was also due to some negotiating. But Rationalist is right: find out how much you're worth (+/-), and ask for it!
So I've consistently asked for too little in job interviews because I was afraid they wouldn't offer me the job if I asked for too much. But I've had two experiences that taught me a lesson:
one was when i took a job at a New York firm and the woman who interviewed me got drunk at the xmas party and basically said that they were ready to offer me much more than they did. She said she was surprised at how low a number I asked for and that, in confidence, I should do my research better in the future. (I asked for $40,000 two years out of school.)
During the interview for my last job, the principal asked what I wanted to be paid. When I told him, he stood up, closed the door to his office, and offered me $10,000 more than that. He told me that he couldn't in good conscience give me the salary I asked for. But not everyone is that decent or honest. (I asked for $55,000 six years out of school.)
The moral? Ask for a higher number than you think you can get.
^^absolutely. I usually expect the firm to bargain me down, by $2k in a jr. position, by $5k in a senior position. So if I want $45,000 I ask for $47,000.
But $2000 is nothing. It's almost like they're bargaining you down to show who's boss -- literally.
yeah, but they'll do that. And if you are prepared for them to do so and they don't, hey that's an extra $2k that you didn't expect to get!
I had an interview once where I know that the reason I wasn't offered the job was because the salary I asked for was too high. Everything was going perfectly in the interview up until the moment that I was asked for my salary expectation. My response to that question tanked the interview.
That was a tricky situation, because I was interviewing in a region with considerably lower average salaries than the city I was working in at the time. I was aware of that, but felt that I wouldn't know what the high range was for that region unless I aimed high.
So when they asked the question I told them what I was currently making and also what I'd been offered by another firm in my home market. These numbers shocked them and I could tell right then that I'd just totally lost them. The firm owner told me very curtly that they weren't planning to go above a number that was about 20k less than what I'd just said. Then the office manager said "Of course it would probably be very difficult for you to maintain the lifestyle to which you're accustomed." And then I was promptly escorted out and wished a good trip back to where I'd come from...
I'm facing this same dilemma right now. I think I make a reasonable salary at my current gig here in Chicago, but I'm wondering how much better I could do when I move to NYC at the end of the month.
Last time I moved to NYC (from Philadelphia), I got a $10,000 bump in salary. I took a modest salary decrease when I moved back to Chicago, mainly because the cost of living is so much cheaper here, but now I'm making the exact figure in Chicago as I was making three years ago in NYC. All this time, though, I've had a nagging feeling that I've been asking for too little, as prospective employers have usually agreed to my number without so much as blinking. Somehow I'd feel better about my salary if my bosses-to-be had to sweat a little before making me an offer.
I have a rough idea of what I'll be asking for when I go back to New York (hopefully another $10k more than I'm making now), but like others here, I'm paranoid about asking for too little or too much.
a couple of things i'm haven't seen pointed out -
first, make sure the position you're responding to really matches up with your skills. i've interviewed plenty of people who i haven't really been convinced they had the skills that we were looking and advertising for. if you throw out a high number in that situation, you're probably going to get a bad reaction.
second, recognize that we're in a pretty big boom time right now - there is a ton of work, everyone's busy, and when new projects come in, some firms will throw a higher salary out there just to get a warm body. don't automatically assume that it's a reflection of your skills (it may, it may not) and, don't automatically assume you'll get huge salary bumps each year afterwards. in fact, watch your butt. if it slows down, you may be the first out the door.
that said, if i have an interviewee who is woefully selling themselves short, yeah, we'll correct it. especially if they are good. i don't want them leaving if they think they're being shorted.
finally, yes, you can talk yourself out of a job. as pointed out on the raise thread, if you come in so much higher than my firm's standards, then i've got nowhere to negotiate from, because they'll be no way to bridge that gap.
lastly, as an employer, we do look at people's resumes. if it looks like you're hopping jobs every year (which seems to be the preferred method mentioned in this thread to bump the salary) and come in saying you're making some crazy salary (and you want a bump on top of that), then i'm probably going to pass. i don't need to run the risk of having you leave, yet again, in a year's time...
Another key point not yet mentioned: do whatever you can to get the firm to make the offer first. Avoid being the first one to name a number.
My new firm tried this with me (a reasonable request, but one which I politely declined). I told them what I'd been making previously (adjusted a bit higher, if you know what I mean), but said I'd prefer them to make an initial offer. THAT'S a good way to at least get in the ballpark of worth, I think. It may be way too low for you, in which case you can tell them so (nicely). Or, it may be higher than you expect, in which case you'll be pleasantly suprised.
Either way, do whatever you can to get them to start the negotiation.
A tale of three interviews in which I asked for the same number: Firm A balked at a number, Firm B said, "if you really think this would be a good fit, we can discuss your number," and Firm C offered me the number.
I guess one would look at it differently in my shoes....It would be how much money can I bring into the firm and well how much are they willing to part with. I guess that is part of being in the profession for awhile. Think I will stick to working with my wife for the time being. However I keep reading these articles about firms having a difficult time hiring people with skills.
ok - it was a trick question!
what's a rembrandt worth? what's a bushel of wheat worth? the answer is the same for both.
"value = the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of the relevant facts."
in the end, "scarcity" and "specialness" makes all the difference in the world. we all tend to think our own talent and skills are "rare" and "special" (i.e. Rembrandt) - in the real world, most of us are fairly ordinary and average (i.e. the "bushel of wheat")
I know - that's hard to swallow, but it's true. and that's what determines what we're paid.
when assessing your "worth" you have to start with what firms are willing to pay for "average" in your community - that's where surveys come into play. buy (or find access to) the aia survey. look at salary.com. use the data you find here. that will inform your judgment. don't be cheap about this - $200 of data can mean literally thousands in pay.
then, be objective about where are relative to "average" - this is not Lake Woebegone - if you can't DEMONSTRATE something that clearly differentiates you from the rest of the pack, most firms will peg you at "average"
work at a defining a decent rationale - and, good luck
I'd like to think that I'm at least a bushel of super-tasty organic wheat, thank you very much!
starting salary was 28.8k almost 10 years ago.
hrmm... also the speed of the fastest modems at the time, holz.box?
lolz.. on archinect? oh noes
'97, i think we were rolling @ twice that speed by then.
and there was really only one use for the internets at that time.
ten years ago the office i was in was drawing by hand. they did have one computer though.
Ten years ago I took my first CAD test, but it wasn't my last.
anybody have success with salary.com's numbers? they always seem a bit high to me...
actually i've been finding them to be very helpful...but you do need to discuss what your skill level would be with others and figure out where you are placed on the bell curve that is supplied...i.e. don't just think you're going to be in the 95% unless you have something very special to offer.
my mom told me when i was wee that i was very special, so im going to ask for that 95% spot. Thanks futureboy!
in all honesty though, my situation is like this...
i graduated last may.... my year is coming up in about a week so im going to talk to my boss about a substantial raise. I dont get my OT and consistently work it, i contributed (1 of 3 people on the comp.) to the winning of a competition for a high rise office tower which we are now doing, was recognized over christmas with a bump up in title, and besides the raise everyone got over the holidays was not rewarded for my work so far, or my promotion (which is another issue entirely)
combine with all this, i make very little. Significantly less than many, many of my fellow grads. When i run the numbers, asking for 20% sounds laughable, but it turns out to be a very fair salary. Anyone ever asked for a raise that big? how is it best to approach it?
My mom told me when i was wee that i was worthless, so im going to take an unpaid internship. Thanks futureboy!
My biggest fear is that I'm overestimating my skills, and will end up not being as good as advertised. That's mostly why I didn't negotiate my current salary. A-it was more than I was expecting, and B-I didn't want to haggle and then come in and under perform.
i edit a newsletter and the next issue's theme is compensation. some of you guys have some great ideas about this - anyone interested in writing an article for a national publication about it? of course, it doesn't pay (the irony!), but it's a good chance to put your thoughts out there nonetheless.
email me if you're interested!
Seems like it comes down to whether your potential boss is stingy or not.
I've had widely varying reactions to various salary requests during my career-- as it seems most people have. I don't know how much it's possible to generalize about salaries in certain cities.
My first job in NYC I made $24,000. But fellow graduates of mine made $55,000 in the same city. That's a huge disparity. How can we generalize?
I'm not old enough to worked through some really rough times in this business. Have heard stories of the late 70's early 80's being brutal for architects. Still meet many ex-architect's now in construction or prod reps that left arch in those times.
However, my experience was in the fall of 2001 when things weren't so great either. The stock markets were crashing and 9/11 had just happened. I was out job hunting at that time and entry level jobs with under 5 ys exp were few and far between. I was sending resumes and knocking on doors from Boston to Atlanta and DC to Seattle. Rarely did I get an interview. At most interviews I was told they didn't have a position yet but were "anticipating" things picking up. When I finally did get an offer I took it. You would've too. And it was low.
It's easy to talk about asking for good raises and starting salaries. However, sometimes when the jobs are limited you don't have that kind of luxury. Just something to think about since go-go good times for Architects don't last forever.
My current boss charges the employees for coffee, so you can imagine how salary negotiations tend to go in this office.
what? charges for coffee? like out of the pot in the kitchen? or from starbucks...
LiG ....that's ridiculous. I would leave because of principle…
Aquapura brings up yet ANOTHER important point: the state of the economy (relative to urban development and building construction) at the time of job-hunting.
If the number of jobs drops significantly, so will the salaries offered.
ironicaly bad economic times can be great for interns. That period of mid 2000 - 2002 virtually all staff architects over 40 who were not in an equity position were purged from major firms around Chicago from my observations. In there wake came a flood of cad monkey grads with very limited knoweledge about how this all works - however if they knew the fickleness of the business and how hard it is to attract even mediocre clients, they'd shit their pants- especially if they saw how that laid 50 year old with a masters degree lives in a shithole house with broken gutters and with a cheating spouse and 3 mortages and a mound of debt from sending their alchoholic daughter to college where she returned fat, knocked up with no degree and now lives in the basement with her boyfriend who crashed your car after running over your dog.
evilplatypus, are you speaking from experience?
...not that he's bitter....
its an agregated character type based on the sad stories of middle aged architects I've sat next to or worked for - a rational person would have taken one look at these folks and ran straight for the nearest business school.
not bitter at all - doing great in Chicago do to the vaccum left behind by the older ones - but I am always keeping my nose in the air for the next hint of a changing market that could take me out of the game
like the commercial says.....stay in the game!
Aqua, you make a very good point. However, note that I did not title this thread "Ask for more money!", I titled it "Ask for what you're worth!" What your worth is, as quizzical noted, all relative. In tough times, one's worth is certainly less than when things are flush.
word rationalist - and by worth think value - although boring compared to renderings and working with the designer - a good mechanic is always in demand and a young one can get a little higher salary. Its one way to seperate yourself in the market. Face it - you wont be doing much design anyways till your name is on the letterhead
I think it's all about attitude - when I interview, I'm not suggesting that they are wonderful - I'm telling them that I'm wonderful & demanding that they explain why they are wonderful. If they can't meet my standards, then I'll walk.
This attitude, more than anything, results in higher offers (without me having to name a number) than you'd expect.
Don't act like an employee, act like an owner.
Oh yeah, and some regions are hotter than others, it pays to shop around a bit.
ummm...and I found that the AIA salary survey is out of date - you gotta multiply the numbers by a healthy amount of inflation...then add in the fact that for the 2005 survey the numbers are from like 2003...
and then consider that the market is hotter right now...and so the resulting number is a bit low...
example: AIA survey states that you are worth $10,000...then multiply by 1.05 to account for inflation:
2003 = $10,000
2004 = $10,500
2005 = $11,025
2006 = $11,576
2007 = $12,155
then ask yourself, "why did I go to school for 7 years to get paid $12,155 a year?"
I am not worth as much as a manager at In-N-Out
food for thought...
"Our Store Managers, on average, have been with the company for over 13 years and average in excess of $100,000 in total compensation per year. In addition to the Store Manager position, there are three additional levels of restaurant management positions: 2nd Manager, 3rd Manager, and 4th Manager. Average annual compensation for these levels of management are: 2nd Managers - $50,000/year, 3rd Managers - $41,000/year, and 4th Managers - $33,000/year. In addition to cash compensation, all managers enjoy a comprehensive benefits package including paid vacations, a 401k program, and medical, dental, vision, and life and travel insurance coverage"
www.in-n-out.com
not to mention getting it animal style all day long
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