I have been thinking about the process of an education in architecture for quite some time now.
What are your thoughts on the 'self-taught' route? Every so often you come across someone who has no formal schooling, and often their work is extremely interesting. A lot of the greats from the past also had no formal 'architecture' schooling.
Putting licensing issues aside, do you think this is possible? Is it perhaps easier now with the internet, global travel, and so much documented history? Or perhaps the profession was simpler in the past and such an education would now be harder, or could no longer work?
Curious to hear if any you have any views on this. I am not really thinking of doing this myself - I'm currently doing pre-reqs for the traditional MArch route - but some of my friends and I have been having an interesting discussion about the possibilities, and I wanted to open it up to a larger audience.
holz.box
Jul 16, 10 1:23 am
i know a few autodidacts who are doing interesting things.
although i went the 'traditional route' i pretty much taught myself the things i was interested in. and still do. learning doesn't stop at graduation.
Paradox
Jul 16, 10 2:04 am
I like learning by myself,at my own pace.I say go for it, it is possible. Traveling is a great way to learn and open your mind.You don't have to be in an educational institution to learn.
Distant Unicorn
Jul 16, 10 2:07 am
I am a very bad example.
Allahtect
Jul 16, 10 11:16 am
your education does not begin in schol and does not end after school but people with graduate degrees will always think they are better than you and get better jobs and make more money. they will not hire you when they are in position to hire people becuase they value education similar to theirs. go ahead and teach yourself so the grads can say go screw yourself.
nonneutral
Jul 16, 10 11:33 am
You'll still need to do school to get a license, but I believe that some form of additional self-motivated learning is the only way that anyone will ever be able to become a great architect, since it teaches you about unique things that everyone else isn't necessarily being told about in school.
Thom Yorke
Jul 16, 10 11:55 am
University allows you to work and learn with others, to deal with pressure and conflict, and to stop thinking you don't need other people to become a good architect. Screw the "ayn rand" attitude, and screw people that don't see value in what others have done... peer or starchitect.
cipyboy
Jul 16, 10 3:51 pm
2 words... Tadao Ando... a perfect example
switch
Jul 16, 10 4:58 pm
Thanks for the replies everyone. Interesting to read the varied viewpoints.
@Unicorn Ghost - care to explain?
@GazaLaRaza - What if the said student opens their own firm? Also, it seems like nobody is making any money as it is. At least the self taught student would presumably have less debt to worry about? If I were to do this, it would be in addition to the industrial and exhibition design work I already am doing, opening doors to new projects but not necessarily closing doors to projects I'm already working on of smaller scale. This is all hypothetical
@Thom Yorke - I agree those qualities are invaluable outcomes of a university education. With that said, not meaning to sound arrogant, but I learned that in my undergrad at design school. Much as someone else may have learned that in a carpentry apprenticeship, or climbing a corporate ladder. I also would disagree that by taking a self taught route you would be thinking you don't need other people to become a good architect. In fact, I see it as the opposite. You would need more people, more sources of information, more lessons. Everything and everyone becomes a teacher. You would be hungry for all education, not just that curated by your school of choice. That is not to say that people within schools don't look outside of them to broaden their studies, but I know from experience that many simply follow the path of the school without question.
binary
Jul 16, 10 5:12 pm
builders license.....
pick up the tools and just make it happen
Thom Yorke
Jul 16, 10 5:36 pm
switch,
good points. I don't disagree with the path of avoiding institutionalism. I just feel like, similar to any good science, architecture deserves some formal training to learn what people have achieved before us.
maybe we shouldn't compare architecture to that of medicine or law, but I doubt many people would advocate a doctor or lawyer to practice without some formal training. They would be more like medicine men and talk-show hosts.
(just playing devil's advocate, btw.)
snook_dude
Jul 16, 10 6:21 pm
Bruce Goff and well we know what creative endevors he undertook!
snook_dude
Jul 16, 10 6:24 pm
If you have a few bucks in your pocket head out to Tulsa for a Friends of Kebyar Gathering and the Symposium: Bruce Goff: A Creative Mind. October 9-10. Go early leave late. You will meet many interesting people, who might just shake you up a bit.
awkeytect
Jul 16, 10 6:50 pm
nice snook
will galloway
Jul 16, 10 7:26 pm
my phd advisor shared studio space with ando at tokyo university when i was studying there. ando is interesting man. his lectures were in many ways better than most of the formally-trained profs. he retired just after i arrived so i only saw a bit of him, but i think it is fair to say that his example is not valid for most people.
he is powerful personality with support from family, was able to travel the world as a youth during a time when most japanese were not yet travelling. one of his brother is a developer the other a landscape architect and his business history is not by any means straightforward. Also, in Japan it is possible to have an architectural practice without a license as long as a certain percentage of the office is licensed. i don't think it works that way in many other countries. more to the point it is common practice for people to earn a license here through experience rather than formal education. there is no legal requirement to go to school at all to take the exams.
which is to say, in japan it is possible, and if you come from a certain family with connections it is possible, but in USA? maybe if you are independently wealthy...
education is what you make of it. being aware of the intentions of the education might help you to take things beyond what is on offer, but i am not certain there is any benefit from not going the standard route to licensure except for a lot of unnecessary barriers to contend with. In today's economy being less than your competitors is more likely to be a strike against you than a plus...
btw, i have phd in planning and architecture as well as m.arch, a license and all that junk, but i consider myself by and large self-educated. just because you go to school does not mean you are learning anything.
lika
Jul 16, 10 9:26 pm
not possible, the idea is a romantic one, since there are so much more to learn today compare to 50, 100, 1000 years ago.
jump is right in saying that time, place and sociality is different now more than ever, especially in the US.
besides, universities fundamentally is a place the is focused on exposing you to ideas, history, other people's work. it ultimately boils down to what you get out of it and what you do with it.
today, self taught would only be possible if you have the means to support yourself, more importantly you'll have supreme discipline to constantly absorbing knowledge, in some ways a genius.
oh, and if to make it as some sort of a starkitect is your goal, make lots of friends in the media business.
jmanganelli
Jul 16, 10 10:29 pm
i agree with the comments that whether or not you go through the academy proper, you will be self-teaching
part of this is the academy/practice disconnect talked about elsewhere on this forum
part is that in general, quality mentoring both in the academy and in practice can be quite spotty and if you get it, you are lucky
but self-education is also a vital skill and to not teach/force students to learn it is doing them a disservice
so either way, you'll be doing the same thing
from my perspective, the question is, if you will be self-teaching no matter what you do or where yo do it, then what do you want to teach yourself?
whatever it is, just make sure you get into a job or school or work with someone who does it, then as you self-teach, by dint of exposure and access, you'll teach yourself what you want to know
if you're doing custom houses and trying to teach yourself how to do hospitals, it will be very difficult and probably won't work out well, if at all
Too bad Dave Matthews couldn't fit his band into that tiny house for a jam session.
Rupespier
Feb 17, 14 6:47 pm
hi, i am self taught and i'm doing ok, my education started studying the biographies of my favorite architects, i also got inspired by my grandfather who was a civil engineer but worked as an architect and a graphic designer, i also found many architects designing graphics and furniture! before the graphic designers and the industrial designers existed there was only architects, so i also decided to be a graphic and industrial designer, other source of inspiration are todays technological genius, some without formal education, , also many spiritual masters, like Alan Watts, Osho, Krishnamurti,Sadguru,Mooji, i really believe there are no recipes for doing what you like.
i don't believe in self acreditation of anykind, i am not looking for fame or to ever become a starchitect. i am also not against formal education, i just got very very inspired to follow the paths of Ando,Corbu, Wright,Van der Rohe, Gray, Barragán, just to mention a few.
here is my website with my 3 passions i do for a living,
You cannot be great unless you are self taught. Formal education is helpful but not necessary but self education is necessary for success in the arts. Not this is not medicine or law. Completely different. Its a creative field. Even physics requires self education. All you can learn is what has been done. To add to that content/create new content self learning is necessary.
cg_8
Feb 17, 14 8:57 pm
I didn't learn anything in school. I learned more my first 3 mos being self employed than I did the 6 years of school.
However, formal education is extremely valuable! Why? Professors have so many different interests and their interests widen your ability to learn the complexity of architecture. One will teach urban design and helps you see the value in how people and cars connect to buildings. Others have a strong interest in materials and how implementing them can help strengthen the relationship of the user and their surrounding environment.
Also, I don't think learning is the problem when practicing. It's knowing what questions to ask. Codes (IBC, IRC, Green, mechanical, 2001, 2006, 2009, 2012, etc) are something that needs to be understood for each individual municipality. Building processes, occupancy types, zoning restrictions, on and on! You can't really learn that on your own. That stuff needs to be known before a project begins and without a person with the know how... It's nearly impossible to begin to understand how to finish a project.
With that being said, can you learn on your own? Yes and no. You need to at least surround yourself with someone with tremendous experience to learn the process... But you also need to understand how being self taught will help you know what to absorb and how to apply it.
Non Sequitur
Jul 23, 22 6:18 pm
Ricky, you’re replying to an 8y old comment.
backbay
Feb 17, 14 9:14 pm
"All you can learn is what has been done. To add to that content/create new content self learning is necessary. "
Yes, but I would argue that architecture is not one of those fields of work when you're learning the basics. Outside of academia, our job is a process-- a very complicated process that doesn't really change much from one job to the next, and you need to know how all the pieces fit together because we're not an isolated profession. You CAN and mostly DO learn the process through experience though, which favors the whole no school thing.
The design education though... I don't know. I consider myself reasonably talented design- wise, but I know I wouldn't have been pushed to become better and challenge myself if it weren't for school.
All this aside though, if you value the little job security that exists in this field, you'll get a degree. I know some people that never made it through college but have worked in architecture their whole adult lives, and unfortunately they still haven't recovered from 2008's financial disaster... its 2014. it doesn't have to be an expensive degree, just a degree!
Seriously, the jobs that people with communications degrees have... literally anyone could do those. all the degree says is "look at me! i'm competent and have tried hard at stuff my whole life!" overrated? yes. but invaluable in the society we live in today none the less. you'd be a fool to ignore that.
backbay
Feb 17, 14 9:16 pm
besides, most of the "i don't need college" people i know are either extremely lazy or pretty flakey. you'll have that stereotype running against you, because chances are you won't be some internationally renowned architect-- just some local shlub that draws houses.
x-jla
Feb 17, 14 11:49 pm
I agree about process backbay. That's a great point. Process is key but process is extremely Personal. I practiced my process and developed it during my m-arch program but we did not learn process. Those who relied on the teacher to teach them process were usually lost. It requires rigor/practice.
Rupespier
Feb 19, 14 8:36 pm
if recognition is what you look for, is very good to get as many titles as possible , you will become famous i can assure.
Volunteer
Feb 20, 14 12:29 pm
What are the costs of going the independent route for a couple of years and seeing how it goes? Get a job in construction and take some drafting courses in the evening and go from there. You can always return to the traditional, high-cost route.
BobLandGrad
Jan 3, 19 4:11 pm
Though I practiced "Landscape Architecture" for the past 40 years (no Architecture)…..the SAME question applies here. The ONLY Architect I ever heard of who became very successful (who was "self-taught" for the most part...though, he did do a few years of drafting/apprenticeship, was "Frank Lloyd Wright".
Today, even Frank Lloyd Wright would not have succeeded as a "self-taught" Architect. You need an Architecture Degree & you have a national exam to pass and you must be "Licensed" in the State/s you practice in.
As a Landscape Architect, I earned my B.S.L.A. degree in Landscape Architect @ Texas A&M University in 1977 (4 yr. program). Before entering Texas A&M, I served on an Aircraft Carrier in the U.S. Navy, so, I rec'd financial assistance from the U.S. Gov't for my college education, though it was only about $375.00 per month. Still, I managed to graduate "debt free". Before I attended Texas A&M, I took several Architectural Drafting Courses in Jr. High School & High School as well as several art courses & took Architectural & Graphic Design Courses at The University of North Texas in Denton, Texas.
After graduating from A&M, I realized I knew very little about designing in the "real world", so, I knew the best way was an "Internship". I designed for 14 years, for 2 different Landscape Architecture Firms (in Florida and 1 in Dallas)….during those 14 years, I learned how to design from several very experienced and talented Landscape Architects...worked on approx. 200 projects. Then, at age 41, I established my own one man Landscape Architecture Firm. Took me 2 years to get that start-up firm off the ground. At the Dallas firm, where I worked for 13 years, I only earned about $35k per year...but, after about 4 year on my own, my annual income increased 4x to 8x what I was previously was earning. I never learned autoCAD, I was way to busy to stop and learn. My "Hand-Drawing" skills have always been excellent, so I have always leaned on those skills for preliminary designs and final contract documents. I also had a passion for producing "color renderings". During my career, to date, I have personally designed over 600 projects in 14 States...all "by hand".
But, I can assure you, without the drafting and art courses in Jr. and Sr. High, several design courses @ North Texas, my 4 yr. Landscape Architecture degree @ Texas A&M and those 14 years of "internship" at those 2 Landscape Architecture Firms...…...my design career would NEVER had been even close to successful.
Everyone needs to understand.....in order to get projects to design, you really need a Resume' that shows you have a credible background in design. And, you need a "Design Portfolio" to show potential clients that you have a designed successful projects in the past. Client don't want you learning "on their dime".
In addition, to become a Landscape Architect in the United States. You must first earn a 4 or 5 year degree in Landscape Architecture. Then, you must pass a very difficult National Landscape Architecture Exam called the L.A.R.E., then, you must work for a "Licensed Landscape" Architect for a minimum of (2) years. Then, you will be eligible to become a "Licensed Landscape Architect" in a State. However, now, there are several U.S. States that required a "State Landscape Architecture Exam"....like California & Florida & several others. In addition, you will be required to pay "Annual Fees" to the State and you will be required to take a certain minimum hours of "Continuing Education Courses" in order to keep your License active & valid.
And these days, both in Architecture & Landscape Architecture, there are MANY computer software programs you must master OR good luck in getting a job with a design firm. I still produced ALL of my designs "by hand"...and it may take me a bit longer than using autoCAD, but, my drawings are every bit as professional as autoCAD drawings; I've never had a client complain.
I realize that no design profession is really life & death (though, there definitely have been deaths due to design mistakes made by BOTH Architects and Landscape Architects. Ask yourselves, would you want a "self-taught" Surgeon doing a brain operation on YOU??? Not me. I want a Surgeon who graduated from Med-School and has at least 20 years of experience operating on me!
There are most likely MANY various professions where a person can be "self-taught" and become successful at it...….but, with DESIGN, in my professional opinion...…..NO, you can not succeed by being "self-taught". There's a "process" you must go thru.
So, NO, you can NOT teach yourself...….Architecture or Landscape Architecture and expect to succeed.
My Portfolio: Google me at: J. Robert Wainner and look for my FLICKR web site. I have approx. 85 samples of my design work.
Good Luck to ALL of you!
J. Robert (Bob) Wainner - Plano, Texas
Non Sequitur
Jan 3, 19 4:23 pm
cool story there Bob... and contrary to your assertion, design can most certainly be self-taught. No need to drag the FLW cliché in here.
What's your point in resurrecting this dead thread with such misplaced gusto? A few swirly pools and trees drawn in ink and pan-tone markers is not something one can do only if they've paid tuition in a landscape design school.
JLC-1
Jan 3, 19 4:36 pm
bob, 2 words, will bruder
BulgarBlogger
Jan 3, 19 4:27 pm
You know what's amazing? Think about it: in order to learn something in college, you presumably are learning from MASTERS. Ask your college professors if they know how to properly waterproof something... you will either learn an outdated method; learn a wrong method; or flat out change your design because the person you are learning from doesn't know how to resolve the detail. YOU LEARN BY PRACTICING AND YOUR EXPERIENCED PEERS ARE YOUR BEST RESOURCE.
tduds
Jan 3, 19 7:08 pm
Architecture professors are not there to teach you waterproofing. Expecting them to do that is like expecting a Romantic Literature professor to teach you penmanship.
This criticism is not only wrongheaded, it's as outdated and tired as that decades-old waterproofing detail.
Non Sequitur
Jan 3, 19 8:14 pm
tduds, I had a graduate prof who only taught (an elective) on membrane detailing. Best class I've ever had and certainly far more educational than the entire 20K word academic thesis which was not elective.
tduds
Jan 3, 19 8:18 pm
Sure. sure. Didn't mean to knock technical courses. They're an excellent way to round out your education. I'll amend my statement: to expect tenured design faculty who teach design studios to know technical details like that is just silly, and to expect design studios to cover technical detailing is to miss the point of design pedagogy.
Non Sequitur
Jan 3, 19 8:23 pm
Well amended. 8-)
tduds
Jan 3, 19 8:23 pm
Pasting a comment I posted elsewhere, in a thread titled "What are your unpopular Architecture opinions?"
Not only is architectural education massively out of touch with architectural practice, it should be.
I think most of the day-to-day operations of an architecture job can be picked up on the job. It's a very apprentice-like career, and things like good detailing, materials, specifications, project management, etc. are, in my opinion, best learned by doing. With a good mentor a young architect should be able to get up to speed in a year or two, while also producing value for the firm.
Design thinking, on the other hand, is not really something you can figure out while also being expected to produce value. It's like learning a language. Architecture students need the sequestered environment that design studios offer to be able to explore, invent, learn, and - most importantly - make terrible mistakes without real world consequences. It's an iterative process that is by nature not "productive" in the capitalist sense of the word.
If architecture schools were merely vocational, we'd end up with a bunch of technicians. We'd lose the art. It would be like having an office full of calligraphers who know the shapes of letters but can't read. Architecture school exists so we can learn to read.
With respect to "self-taught" designers/architects: All of the examples given so far are individuals who were not only uniquely gifted, but uniquely well-positioned, whether through wealth or familial connections, to create this cloistered environment for themselves. Most had private mentors or cultivated a relationship with a (university-educated) master who served the role of surrogate professor/advisor. I can't think of any "Self-taught" greats who succeeded without first creating what is basically a personal university.
BulgarBlogger
Jan 3, 19 9:18 pm
To elaborate on my post above - people you learn from should be masters at what they do- right? so what exactly are they masters of if they don't know how to build/detail? Are they masters of design and if so, why is "Design" separate from "knowing how to build"? I agree that you won't be looking at shop drawings or getting to that level of detail, but at the end of the day, you're also presumably investing in a design AND technical education...learning to marry both comes from practice, but without first knowing the basics of either, how can you function or call yourself a professional?
tduds
Jan 4, 19 12:46 pm
I feel like my post above yours more than adequately explains my reasoning on this.
BulgarBlogger
Jan 4, 19 3:33 pm
ok...
Volunteer
Jan 3, 19 4:28 pm
Of course you can teach yourself architecture. Fifteen states allow it. Working for a firm as an apprentice used to be the only way to become an architect. An undergraduate degree in the arts and sciences or in engineering beforehand would be a definite advantage.
BobLandGrad
Jan 3, 19 5:28 pm
OK.....addressing a few of the recent comments here.
If anyone truly believes.....that being a "Landscape Architect" only entails drawing "a few swirly pools and some trees with pan tone markers" is all there is to it.....you're "extremely naïve". If you don't have both the education & professional "internship" experience I mentioned....good luck on earning a "dime" designing in the real world. TOO FUNNY!
And, yes, I agree, some of my Landscape Architecture Professors seemed a bit clueless at times....but, one of them was actually a former partner with EDAW (they've changed their name & are a much larger design firm now)...EDAW was the #1 Landscape Architecture Firm in the World. Several of my professors had many years of "professional experience" before becoming Professors. And, I agree.....a college education is only the "beginning" of a design career...you only learn the "basics"...you really LEARN "real world design" when you go to work for an established design firm...that has several very experienced & talented designers who will mentor you. That's HOW I learned my profession. After going out on my own (with that education & 14 years of experience)….and 2 yrs. of start-up time...I was averaging $185k annually...3 yrs. were over $220k. Not too bad for a 1 man Landscape Architecture firm. But, had I gone the "self-taught" route....there's no way I could have earned a descent living in the Landscape Design profession.
Well, yes, there are several States in the U.S. who will allow a person to "practice" Architecture......however, it is against the LAW to use the Title "Architect". You cannot market yourself as an Architect, you must call yourself a "Designer". In fact, it's against the LAW in all (50) States to call yourself an "Architect" unless you have an "Architect's License" in each specific State where you wish to design.
Non Sequitur
Jan 3, 19 5:35 pm
I already earn plenty of dimes, and the occasional quarter, designing in the real world. Thanks for asking.
BulgarBlogger
Jan 3, 19 8:08 pm
"you really LEARN "real world design" when you go to work for an established design firm...that has several very experienced & talented designers who will mentor you. That's HOW I learned my profession."
BulgarBlogger
Jan 3, 19 8:09 pm
Phone app sucks- anyway- my point: who made you the authority? lol "at least" before "that's HOW I learned" would have been a more humble transition.
Non Sequitur
Jan 3, 19 8:18 pm
what really is the danger of practicing LA without a license... and more to the point, if I design landscape areas in my projects, why does no one cares if I have a LA stamp or not. All that matters is my architect credentials... and when the budget allows it, it's far easier to outsource the LA to a consultant. I already have 1000 more important things to do, I don't need another.
BobLandGrad
Jan 3, 19 6:28 pm
Well....……...Interesting reading On-line about "Architect's" average hourly income. It stated, that after earning an Architecture Degree...then, after 3 to 5 years working for an Architect, the Average hourly income was $22.40. I'm thinking that McDonald's now pays around $15 per hour.
Non Sequitur
Jan 3, 19 8:09 pm
Bob, what's the entry level for a LA draftsperson or junior design? That's what that $45k/year average you quote reflects and is certainly not a fair comparison to a sole-proprietor with 20+ years numbers you claim.
Regardless, looks like you've carved yourself a decent niche drawing up mostly run-of-the-mill McMansion shrubbery and other various accoutrements. Certainly nothing to scoff at despite my generalizations, but you're also not curing cancer and you're certainly not working on projects with the level of complexity the buildings we architects work through everyday. So again, what is the point of resurrecting this old thread if not to gloat?
For what it's worth, I work closely with a few LA in my area. They are likely the most relaxed and easy-going of my consultants. Your random ranting does not fit this mold.
tduds
Jan 3, 19 8:15 pm
"They are likely the most relaxed and easy-going of my consultants."
^ I actually enjoy working with them. Last project I did, I even drew up my concept with pan-tone markers, annotated it, then scanned to them. I need to do that more often.
BulgarBlogger
Jan 3, 19 9:23 pm
How do "design" architects market themselves to clients? lol "Hi- I'm a great designer, but if you want to get it built, hire the other guy..." Like I seriously don't understand how firms like BIG, ZAHA, etc can design buildings and totally be cucooned away from code and zoning regulations. Yes, they hire local firms, but all of that "technical stuff" informs what you can and cannot build. I just have no idea how they are even profitable... imagine they have to redo a design because someone misconstrued the regulations.
tduds
Jan 4, 19 12:48 pm
"I seriously don't understand how firms like BIG, ZAHA, etc can design buildings and totally be cucooned away from code and zoning regulations."
...You ask "how is this the case?" without first considering "Is this the case?", which, I don't believe it is the case.
BobLandGrad
Jan 3, 19 10:59 pm
Actually, normally I am a very laid back person. And, I have made some good friends with Architects & Civil Engineers....and a lot of various types of Contractors over the years. Sorry guys....really didn't intend to gloat in any way here in this Blog.
With regards to compensation....as I recall, when I began my career as a Landscape Designer in 1974, annual salary was right at about $15k. But, after 10 years later (with a lot of over-time every month) I was pulling own around $65k. Pretty disappointing, actually...but, the experience I gained was invaluable. Got tired of earning money for others, so, at age 41, started my own (1) man Landscape Architecture firm....took 2 yrs. to get it up and running. I had 14 yrs. of experience that included a LOT of upscale Multi-Family developments for some of the TOP Apartment Builders in the Nation. Got lucky and picked up 5 major Multi-Family Clients...continued to design on my own, This was a great niche, for sure! Every Apt. project included at least 25 sheets of final drawings (24" x 36" size)...all "hand drawn". I was literally up to my eyeballs with work. Those Multi-Family projects are "cash-cows", just a lot of time & effort to produce them! I actually put in approx. 42 "calendar yrs." plus, (4) yrs. worth of "over-time". Though, I have slowed down quite a bit over the last 3 or 4 years...mostly designed single family residential projects...and phasing out my design career into retirement.
Whether you are "self-taught" or not.....I wish you all the best of luck with your design careers!
BobLandGrad
Jan 3, 19 11:12 pm
Actually, meant to say U began my design career in "1977" not "1974". From 1970 to 1974, I served onboard a U.S. Aircraft Carrier (USS Franklin D. Roosevelt CVA 42)...ship was decommissioned several yrs. ago. Spent most of those 4 years in the Mediterranean Sea...visiting Cities and Nations on the Southern European coast. Great to see both the Architecture & Landscape Architecture in those European nations....seeing all of that had a major influence on my choosing "Landscape Architecture" for a design career.
Non Sequitur
Jan 4, 19 12:54 pm
Bob, I would think a few years looking at the Mediterranean sea coastline did more for you design wise than traditional schooling.
BobLandGrad
Jan 4, 19 1:33 pm
Well, not really. Having spent almost 4 years...exploring cities like Barcelona, Monte Carlo, Naples, Rome, Athens, Venice, etc......were more of an "influence" on me than anything. Back then, I never even knew the profession "Landscape Architecture" existed. A few months after I was Honorably Discharged from the Navy....I was looking thru The Texas A&M course catalog...and came across the "Landscape Architecture" Degree program...and I knew, that was IT. Turned out to be a great fit for me.....better than Architecture, Graphic Design or any other design field. But, it was those 14 years of design experience at those 2 Landscape Architecture Firms that really taught me what I needed to know....Texas A&M taught me the basics of the profession. But, I know, college isn't for everyone. I had one Landscape Architecture Professor tell me (in private) that he believed that 50% of the students I graduated with, will never succeed as Landscape Architects.
On the fence
Jan 4, 19 2:23 pm
I am waiting for Rickb to chime in here to cap this one off.
poop876
Jan 4, 19 3:28 pm
Maybe Ricky can chime in on the rules of capitalizing nouns! Damn that was hard to read, but it could be all the olive oil and figs!
I have been thinking about the process of an education in architecture for quite some time now.
What are your thoughts on the 'self-taught' route? Every so often you come across someone who has no formal schooling, and often their work is extremely interesting. A lot of the greats from the past also had no formal 'architecture' schooling.
Putting licensing issues aside, do you think this is possible? Is it perhaps easier now with the internet, global travel, and so much documented history? Or perhaps the profession was simpler in the past and such an education would now be harder, or could no longer work?
Curious to hear if any you have any views on this. I am not really thinking of doing this myself - I'm currently doing pre-reqs for the traditional MArch route - but some of my friends and I have been having an interesting discussion about the possibilities, and I wanted to open it up to a larger audience.
i know a few autodidacts who are doing interesting things.
although i went the 'traditional route' i pretty much taught myself the things i was interested in. and still do. learning doesn't stop at graduation.
I like learning by myself,at my own pace.I say go for it, it is possible. Traveling is a great way to learn and open your mind.You don't have to be in an educational institution to learn.
your education does not begin in schol and does not end after school but people with graduate degrees will always think they are better than you and get better jobs and make more money. they will not hire you when they are in position to hire people becuase they value education similar to theirs. go ahead and teach yourself so the grads can say go screw yourself.
You'll still need to do school to get a license, but I believe that some form of additional self-motivated learning is the only way that anyone will ever be able to become a great architect, since it teaches you about unique things that everyone else isn't necessarily being told about in school.
University allows you to work and learn with others, to deal with pressure and conflict, and to stop thinking you don't need other people to become a good architect. Screw the "ayn rand" attitude, and screw people that don't see value in what others have done... peer or starchitect.
2 words... Tadao Ando... a perfect example
Thanks for the replies everyone. Interesting to read the varied viewpoints.
@Unicorn Ghost - care to explain?
@GazaLaRaza - What if the said student opens their own firm? Also, it seems like nobody is making any money as it is. At least the self taught student would presumably have less debt to worry about? If I were to do this, it would be in addition to the industrial and exhibition design work I already am doing, opening doors to new projects but not necessarily closing doors to projects I'm already working on of smaller scale. This is all hypothetical
@Thom Yorke - I agree those qualities are invaluable outcomes of a university education. With that said, not meaning to sound arrogant, but I learned that in my undergrad at design school. Much as someone else may have learned that in a carpentry apprenticeship, or climbing a corporate ladder. I also would disagree that by taking a self taught route you would be thinking you don't need other people to become a good architect. In fact, I see it as the opposite. You would need more people, more sources of information, more lessons. Everything and everyone becomes a teacher. You would be hungry for all education, not just that curated by your school of choice. That is not to say that people within schools don't look outside of them to broaden their studies, but I know from experience that many simply follow the path of the school without question.
builders license.....
pick up the tools and just make it happen
switch,
good points. I don't disagree with the path of avoiding institutionalism. I just feel like, similar to any good science, architecture deserves some formal training to learn what people have achieved before us.
maybe we shouldn't compare architecture to that of medicine or law, but I doubt many people would advocate a doctor or lawyer to practice without some formal training. They would be more like medicine men and talk-show hosts.
(just playing devil's advocate, btw.)
Bruce Goff and well we know what creative endevors he undertook!
If you have a few bucks in your pocket head out to Tulsa for a Friends of Kebyar Gathering and the Symposium: Bruce Goff: A Creative Mind. October 9-10. Go early leave late. You will meet many interesting people, who might just shake you up a bit.
nice snook
my phd advisor shared studio space with ando at tokyo university when i was studying there. ando is interesting man. his lectures were in many ways better than most of the formally-trained profs. he retired just after i arrived so i only saw a bit of him, but i think it is fair to say that his example is not valid for most people.
he is powerful personality with support from family, was able to travel the world as a youth during a time when most japanese were not yet travelling. one of his brother is a developer the other a landscape architect and his business history is not by any means straightforward. Also, in Japan it is possible to have an architectural practice without a license as long as a certain percentage of the office is licensed. i don't think it works that way in many other countries. more to the point it is common practice for people to earn a license here through experience rather than formal education. there is no legal requirement to go to school at all to take the exams.
which is to say, in japan it is possible, and if you come from a certain family with connections it is possible, but in USA? maybe if you are independently wealthy...
education is what you make of it. being aware of the intentions of the education might help you to take things beyond what is on offer, but i am not certain there is any benefit from not going the standard route to licensure except for a lot of unnecessary barriers to contend with. In today's economy being less than your competitors is more likely to be a strike against you than a plus...
btw, i have phd in planning and architecture as well as m.arch, a license and all that junk, but i consider myself by and large self-educated. just because you go to school does not mean you are learning anything.
not possible, the idea is a romantic one, since there are so much more to learn today compare to 50, 100, 1000 years ago.
jump is right in saying that time, place and sociality is different now more than ever, especially in the US.
besides, universities fundamentally is a place the is focused on exposing you to ideas, history, other people's work. it ultimately boils down to what you get out of it and what you do with it.
today, self taught would only be possible if you have the means to support yourself, more importantly you'll have supreme discipline to constantly absorbing knowledge, in some ways a genius.
oh, and if to make it as some sort of a starkitect is your goal, make lots of friends in the media business.
i agree with the comments that whether or not you go through the academy proper, you will be self-teaching
part of this is the academy/practice disconnect talked about elsewhere on this forum
part is that in general, quality mentoring both in the academy and in practice can be quite spotty and if you get it, you are lucky
but self-education is also a vital skill and to not teach/force students to learn it is doing them a disservice
so either way, you'll be doing the same thing
from my perspective, the question is, if you will be self-teaching no matter what you do or where yo do it, then what do you want to teach yourself?
whatever it is, just make sure you get into a job or school or work with someone who does it, then as you self-teach, by dint of exposure and access, you'll teach yourself what you want to know
if you're doing custom houses and trying to teach yourself how to do hospitals, it will be very difficult and probably won't work out well, if at all
nice.....
Too bad Dave Matthews couldn't fit his band into that tiny house for a jam session.
hi, i am self taught and i'm doing ok, my education started studying the biographies of my favorite architects, i also got inspired by my grandfather who was a civil engineer but worked as an architect and a graphic designer, i also found many architects designing graphics and furniture! before the graphic designers and the industrial designers existed there was only architects, so i also decided to be a graphic and industrial designer, other source of inspiration are todays technological genius, some without formal education, , also many spiritual masters, like Alan Watts, Osho, Krishnamurti,Sadguru,Mooji, i really believe there are no recipes for doing what you like.
i don't believe in self acreditation of anykind, i am not looking for fame or to ever become a starchitect. i am also not against formal education, i just got very very inspired to follow the paths of Ando,Corbu, Wright,Van der Rohe, Gray, Barragán, just to mention a few.
here is my website with my 3 passions i do for a living,
www.rupespier.net
You cannot be great unless you are self taught. Formal education is helpful but not necessary but self education is necessary for success in the arts. Not this is not medicine or law. Completely different. Its a creative field. Even physics requires self education. All you can learn is what has been done. To add to that content/create new content self learning is necessary.
I didn't learn anything in school. I learned more my first 3 mos being self employed than I did the 6 years of school.
However, formal education is extremely valuable! Why? Professors have so many different interests and their interests widen your ability to learn the complexity of architecture. One will teach urban design and helps you see the value in how people and cars connect to buildings. Others have a strong interest in materials and how implementing them can help strengthen the relationship of the user and their surrounding environment.
Also, I don't think learning is the problem when practicing. It's knowing what questions to ask. Codes (IBC, IRC, Green, mechanical, 2001, 2006, 2009, 2012, etc) are something that needs to be understood for each individual municipality. Building processes, occupancy types, zoning restrictions, on and on! You can't really learn that on your own. That stuff needs to be known before a project begins and without a person with the know how... It's nearly impossible to begin to understand how to finish a project.
With that being said, can you learn on your own? Yes and no. You need to at least surround yourself with someone with tremendous experience to learn the process... But you also need to understand how being self taught will help you know what to absorb and how to apply it.
Ricky, you’re replying to an 8y old comment.
"All you can learn is what has been done. To add to that content/create new content self learning is necessary. "
Yes, but I would argue that architecture is not one of those fields of work when you're learning the basics. Outside of academia, our job is a process-- a very complicated process that doesn't really change much from one job to the next, and you need to know how all the pieces fit together because we're not an isolated profession. You CAN and mostly DO learn the process through experience though, which favors the whole no school thing.
The design education though... I don't know. I consider myself reasonably talented design- wise, but I know I wouldn't have been pushed to become better and challenge myself if it weren't for school.
All this aside though, if you value the little job security that exists in this field, you'll get a degree. I know some people that never made it through college but have worked in architecture their whole adult lives, and unfortunately they still haven't recovered from 2008's financial disaster... its 2014. it doesn't have to be an expensive degree, just a degree!
Seriously, the jobs that people with communications degrees have... literally anyone could do those. all the degree says is "look at me! i'm competent and have tried hard at stuff my whole life!" overrated? yes. but invaluable in the society we live in today none the less. you'd be a fool to ignore that.
besides, most of the "i don't need college" people i know are either extremely lazy or pretty flakey. you'll have that stereotype running against you, because chances are you won't be some internationally renowned architect-- just some local shlub that draws houses.
I agree about process backbay. That's a great point. Process is key but process is extremely Personal. I practiced my process and developed it during my m-arch program but we did not learn process. Those who relied on the teacher to teach them process were usually lost. It requires rigor/practice.
if recognition is what you look for, is very good to get as many titles as possible , you will become famous i can assure.
What are the costs of going the independent route for a couple of years and seeing how it goes? Get a job in construction and take some drafting courses in the evening and go from there. You can always return to the traditional, high-cost route.
Though I practiced "Landscape Architecture" for the past 40 years (no Architecture)…..the SAME question applies here. The ONLY Architect I ever heard of who became very successful (who was "self-taught" for the most part...though, he did do a few years of drafting/apprenticeship, was "Frank Lloyd Wright".
Today, even Frank Lloyd Wright would not have succeeded as a "self-taught" Architect. You need an Architecture Degree & you have a national exam to pass and you must be "Licensed" in the State/s you practice in.
As a Landscape Architect, I earned my B.S.L.A. degree in Landscape Architect @ Texas A&M University in 1977 (4 yr. program). Before entering Texas A&M, I served on an Aircraft Carrier in the U.S. Navy, so, I rec'd financial assistance from the U.S. Gov't for my college education, though it was only about $375.00 per month. Still, I managed to graduate "debt free". Before I attended Texas A&M, I took several Architectural Drafting Courses in Jr. High School & High School as well as several art courses & took Architectural & Graphic Design Courses at The University of North Texas in Denton, Texas.
After graduating from A&M, I realized I knew very little about designing in the "real world", so, I knew the best way was an "Internship". I designed for 14 years, for 2 different Landscape Architecture Firms (in Florida and 1 in Dallas)….during those 14 years, I learned how to design from several very experienced and talented Landscape Architects...worked on approx. 200 projects. Then, at age 41, I established my own one man Landscape Architecture Firm. Took me 2 years to get that start-up firm off the ground. At the Dallas firm, where I worked for 13 years, I only earned about $35k per year...but, after about 4 year on my own, my annual income increased 4x to 8x what I was previously was earning. I never learned autoCAD, I was way to busy to stop and learn. My "Hand-Drawing" skills have always been excellent, so I have always leaned on those skills for preliminary designs and final contract documents. I also had a passion for producing "color renderings". During my career, to date, I have personally designed over 600 projects in 14 States...all "by hand".
But, I can assure you, without the drafting and art courses in Jr. and Sr. High, several design courses @ North Texas, my 4 yr. Landscape Architecture degree @ Texas A&M and those 14 years of "internship" at those 2 Landscape Architecture Firms...…...my design career would NEVER had been even close to successful.
Everyone needs to understand.....in order to get projects to design, you really need a Resume' that shows you have a credible background in design. And, you need a "Design Portfolio" to show potential clients that you have a designed successful projects in the past. Client don't want you learning "on their dime".
In addition, to become a Landscape Architect in the United States. You must first earn a 4 or 5 year degree in Landscape Architecture. Then, you must pass a very difficult National Landscape Architecture Exam called the L.A.R.E., then, you must work for a "Licensed Landscape" Architect for a minimum of (2) years. Then, you will be eligible to become a "Licensed Landscape Architect" in a State. However, now, there are several U.S. States that required a "State Landscape Architecture Exam"....like California & Florida & several others. In addition, you will be required to pay "Annual Fees" to the State and you will be required to take a certain minimum hours of "Continuing Education Courses" in order to keep your License active & valid.
And these days, both in Architecture & Landscape Architecture, there are MANY computer software programs you must master OR good luck in getting a job with a design firm. I still produced ALL of my designs "by hand"...and it may take me a bit longer than using autoCAD, but, my drawings are every bit as professional as autoCAD drawings; I've never had a client complain.
I realize that no design profession is really life & death (though, there definitely have been deaths due to design mistakes made by BOTH Architects and Landscape Architects. Ask yourselves, would you want a "self-taught" Surgeon doing a brain operation on YOU??? Not me. I want a Surgeon who graduated from Med-School and has at least 20 years of experience operating on me!
There are most likely MANY various professions where a person can be "self-taught" and become successful at it...….but, with DESIGN, in my professional opinion...…..NO, you can not succeed by being "self-taught". There's a "process" you must go thru.
So, NO, you can NOT teach yourself...….Architecture or Landscape Architecture and expect to succeed.
My Portfolio: Google me at: J. Robert Wainner and look for my FLICKR web site. I have approx. 85 samples of my design work.
Good Luck to ALL of you!
J. Robert (Bob) Wainner - Plano, Texas
cool story there Bob... and contrary to your assertion, design can most certainly be self-taught. No need to drag the FLW cliché in here.
What's your point in resurrecting this dead thread with such misplaced gusto? A few swirly pools and trees drawn in ink and pan-tone markers is not something one can do only if they've paid tuition in a landscape design school.
bob, 2 words, will bruder
You know what's amazing? Think about it: in order to learn something in college, you presumably are learning from MASTERS. Ask your college professors if they know how to properly waterproof something... you will either learn an outdated method; learn a wrong method; or flat out change your design because the person you are learning from doesn't know how to resolve the detail. YOU LEARN BY PRACTICING AND YOUR EXPERIENCED PEERS ARE YOUR BEST RESOURCE.
Architecture professors are not there to teach you waterproofing. Expecting them to do that is like expecting a Romantic Literature professor to teach you penmanship.
This criticism is not only wrongheaded, it's as outdated and tired as that decades-old waterproofing detail.
tduds, I had a graduate prof who only taught (an elective) on membrane detailing. Best class I've ever had and certainly far more educational than the entire 20K word academic thesis which was not elective.
Sure. sure. Didn't mean to knock technical courses. They're an excellent way to round out your education. I'll amend my statement: to expect tenured design faculty who teach design studios to know technical details like that is just silly, and to expect design studios to cover technical detailing is to miss the point of design pedagogy.
Well amended. 8-)
Pasting a comment I posted elsewhere, in a thread titled "What are your unpopular Architecture opinions?"
Not only is architectural education massively out of touch with architectural practice, it should be.
I think most of the day-to-day operations of an architecture job can be picked up on the job. It's a very apprentice-like career, and things like good detailing, materials, specifications, project management, etc. are, in my opinion, best learned by doing. With a good mentor a young architect should be able to get up to speed in a year or two, while also producing value for the firm.
Design thinking, on the other hand, is not really something you can figure out while also being expected to produce value. It's like learning a language. Architecture students need the sequestered environment that design studios offer to be able to explore, invent, learn, and - most importantly - make terrible mistakes without real world consequences. It's an iterative process that is by nature not "productive" in the capitalist sense of the word.
If architecture schools were merely vocational, we'd end up with a bunch of technicians. We'd lose the art. It would be like having an office full of calligraphers who know the shapes of letters but can't read. Architecture school exists so we can learn to read.
With respect to "self-taught" designers/architects: All of the examples given so far are individuals who were not only uniquely gifted, but uniquely well-positioned, whether through wealth or familial connections, to create this cloistered environment for themselves. Most had private mentors or cultivated a relationship with a (university-educated) master who served the role of surrogate professor/advisor. I can't think of any "Self-taught" greats who succeeded without first creating what is basically a personal university.
To elaborate on my post above - people you learn from should be masters at what they do- right? so what exactly are they masters of if they don't know how to build/detail? Are they masters of design and if so, why is "Design" separate from "knowing how to build"? I agree that you won't be looking at shop drawings or getting to that level of detail, but at the end of the day, you're also presumably investing in a design AND technical education...learning to marry both comes from practice, but without first knowing the basics of either, how can you function or call yourself a professional?
I feel like my post above yours more than adequately explains my reasoning on this.
ok...
Of course you can teach yourself architecture. Fifteen states allow it. Working for a firm as an apprentice used to be the only way to become an architect. An undergraduate degree in the arts and sciences or in engineering beforehand would be a definite advantage.
OK.....addressing a few of the recent comments here.
If anyone truly believes.....that being a "Landscape Architect" only entails drawing "a few swirly pools and some trees with pan tone markers" is all there is to it.....you're "extremely naïve". If you don't have both the education & professional "internship" experience I mentioned....good luck on earning a "dime" designing in the real world. TOO FUNNY!
And, yes, I agree, some of my Landscape Architecture Professors seemed a bit clueless at times....but, one of them was actually a former partner with EDAW (they've changed their name & are a much larger design firm now)...EDAW was the #1 Landscape Architecture Firm in the World. Several of my professors had many years of "professional experience" before becoming Professors. And, I agree.....a college education is only the "beginning" of a design career...you only learn the "basics"...you really LEARN "real world design" when you go to work for an established design firm...that has several very experienced & talented designers who will mentor you. That's HOW I learned my profession. After going out on my own (with that education & 14 years of experience)….and 2 yrs. of start-up time...I was averaging $185k annually...3 yrs. were over $220k. Not too bad for a 1 man Landscape Architecture firm. But, had I gone the "self-taught" route....there's no way I could have earned a descent living in the Landscape Design profession.
Well, yes, there are several States in the U.S. who will allow a person to "practice" Architecture......however, it is against the LAW to use the Title "Architect". You cannot market yourself as an Architect, you must call yourself a "Designer". In fact, it's against the LAW in all (50) States to call yourself an "Architect" unless you have an "Architect's License" in each specific State where you wish to design.
I already earn plenty of dimes, and the occasional quarter, designing in the real world. Thanks for asking.
"you really LEARN "real world design" when you go to work for an established design firm...that has several very experienced & talented designers who will mentor you. That's HOW I learned my profession."
Phone app sucks- anyway- my point: who made you the authority? lol "at least" before "that's HOW I learned" would have been a more humble transition.
what really is the danger of practicing LA without a license... and more to the point, if I design landscape areas in my projects, why does no one cares if I have a LA stamp or not. All that matters is my architect credentials... and when the budget allows it, it's far easier to outsource the LA to a consultant. I already have 1000 more important things to do, I don't need another.
Well....……...Interesting reading On-line about "Architect's" average hourly income. It stated, that after earning an Architecture Degree...then, after 3 to 5 years working for an Architect, the Average hourly income was $22.40. I'm thinking that McDonald's now pays around $15 per hour.
Bob, what's the entry level for a LA draftsperson or junior design? That's what that $45k/year average you quote reflects and is certainly not a fair comparison to a sole-proprietor with 20+ years numbers you claim.
Regardless, looks like you've carved yourself a decent niche drawing up mostly run-of-the-mill McMansion shrubbery and other various accoutrements. Certainly nothing to scoff at despite my generalizations, but you're also not curing cancer and you're certainly not working on projects with the level of complexity the buildings we architects work through everyday. So again, what is the point of resurrecting this old thread if not to gloat?
For what it's worth, I work closely with a few LA in my area. They are likely the most relaxed and easy-going of my consultants. Your random ranting does not fit this mold.
"They are likely the most relaxed and easy-going of my consultants."
++
Landscale Archs / Designers are great. That's why I'm marrying one.
^ I actually enjoy working with them. Last project I did, I even drew up my concept with pan-tone markers, annotated it, then scanned to them. I need to do that more often.
How do "design" architects market themselves to clients? lol "Hi- I'm a great designer, but if you want to get it built, hire the other guy..." Like I seriously don't understand how firms like BIG, ZAHA, etc can design buildings and totally be cucooned away from code and zoning regulations. Yes, they hire local firms, but all of that "technical stuff" informs what you can and cannot build. I just have no idea how they are even profitable... imagine they have to redo a design because someone misconstrued the regulations.
"I seriously don't understand how firms like BIG, ZAHA, etc can design buildings and totally be cucooned away from code and zoning regulations."
...You ask "how is this the case?" without first considering "Is this the case?", which, I don't believe it is the case.
Actually, normally I am a very laid back person. And, I have made some good friends with Architects & Civil Engineers....and a lot of various types of Contractors over the years. Sorry guys....really didn't intend to gloat in any way here in this Blog.
With regards to compensation....as I recall, when I began my career as a Landscape Designer in 1974, annual salary was right at about $15k. But, after 10 years later (with a lot of over-time every month) I was pulling own around $65k. Pretty disappointing, actually...but, the experience I gained was invaluable. Got tired of earning money for others, so, at age 41, started my own (1) man Landscape Architecture firm....took 2 yrs. to get it up and running. I had 14 yrs. of experience that included a LOT of upscale Multi-Family developments for some of the TOP Apartment Builders in the Nation. Got lucky and picked up 5 major Multi-Family Clients...continued to design on my own, This was a great niche, for sure! Every Apt. project included at least 25 sheets of final drawings (24" x 36" size)...all "hand drawn". I was literally up to my eyeballs with work. Those Multi-Family projects are "cash-cows", just a lot of time & effort to produce them! I actually put in approx. 42 "calendar yrs." plus, (4) yrs. worth of "over-time". Though, I have slowed down quite a bit over the last 3 or 4 years...mostly designed single family residential projects...and phasing out my design career into retirement.
Whether you are "self-taught" or not.....I wish you all the best of luck with your design careers!
Actually, meant to say U began my design career in "1977" not "1974". From 1970 to 1974, I served onboard a U.S. Aircraft Carrier (USS Franklin D. Roosevelt CVA 42)...ship was decommissioned several yrs. ago. Spent most of those 4 years in the Mediterranean Sea...visiting Cities and Nations on the Southern European coast. Great to see both the Architecture & Landscape Architecture in those European nations....seeing all of that had a major influence on my choosing "Landscape Architecture" for a design career.
Bob, I would think a few years looking at the Mediterranean sea coastline did more for you design wise than traditional schooling.
Well, not really. Having spent almost 4 years...exploring cities like Barcelona, Monte Carlo, Naples, Rome, Athens, Venice, etc......were more of an "influence" on me than anything. Back then, I never even knew the profession "Landscape Architecture" existed. A few months after I was Honorably Discharged from the Navy....I was looking thru The Texas A&M course catalog...and came across the "Landscape Architecture" Degree program...and I knew, that was IT. Turned out to be a great fit for me.....better than Architecture, Graphic Design or any other design field. But, it was those 14 years of design experience at those 2 Landscape Architecture Firms that really taught me what I needed to know....Texas A&M taught me the basics of the profession. But, I know, college isn't for everyone. I had one Landscape Architecture Professor tell me (in private) that he believed that 50% of the students I graduated with, will never succeed as Landscape Architects.
I am waiting for Rickb to chime in here to cap this one off.
Maybe Ricky can chime in on the rules of capitalizing nouns! Damn that was hard to read, but it could be all the olive oil and figs!