I'm trying to find some details on pivoting doors - I'm designing a door for a studio project and have been looking at Zumthor's door on the Brother Claus Chapel as inspiration.
You can see that it pivots off-center, with no attachment to the jamb. Anyone know where I could look for similar details, or does anyone have ideas or suggestions on how to draw something similar to this in detail?
Thanks!
holz.box
Oct 7, 09 11:48 am
if it was wood, it'd be easy... mortised into the bottom rail, and there is a plate which the dowel is welded to that screws the plate in...
as it's metal, and i haven't been there, it's a little harder to wrap my head around. it might just be a dowel cast into the floor that slips into the door. don't forget the delrin bushing so it will glide open/shut.
holz.box
Oct 7, 09 11:52 am
here is the latch detail, however..
won and done williams
Oct 7, 09 12:13 pm
are you talking about the standard corb door? i think there are details for it in ford's details of modern architecture vol.2.
won and done williams
Oct 7, 09 12:20 pm
it's far more prosaic, but you could also look for balanced door hardware or rixson pivot hardware.
mantaray
Oct 7, 09 12:35 pm
In case you didn't already know this, and in case this helps, the terms you want to use to search for similar details are : "off-set pivot hinge; sill or floor-mounted; head-mounted". As jafilder mentioned, rixson is a great source for such things. Flipping through their catalogue will give you an idea of how the standard pivot hinge is made and installed, and that should in turn help you figure out exactly what's going on at brother klaus chapel.
LB_Architects
Oct 7, 09 12:51 pm
I'm pretty certain the door in question is not an offset pivot hinge. Nor is there hardware by Rixson that can do what jk3hl is asking.
If I'm correct, the door in question pivots via a CENTER PIVOT (not an offset pivot) and it is supported only at the floor, not along the side or at the top. It's a custom detail which is probably achieved by embedding and anchoring a structural pipe into the ground that rises 3/4th the height of the door. The door would need to be comprised of structural steel reinforcement members and a pipe just wider than the one protruding from the the ground. And then you simply slip the door over the protruding pipe. There are probably a hundred ways to detail this so it pivots smoothly. It's actually very simple, but standard hardware, as has been suggested, cannot achieve what Zumthor did here.
LB_Architects
Oct 7, 09 12:56 pm
Here are the links that, for some reason, didn't work for jk3hl.
I just know that when you're in school, you don't even know what the standard hardware does and how it works, so you have no basis of figuring out how the custom detail you're looking at in the magazine and book pictures might be configured. I remember trying to figure out shit like this when I didn't even know yet what a REGULAR detail looked like -- and more importantly, I lacked the vocabulary to even know how or what to look FOR. I was guessing that might be part of the student's problem.
mantaray
Oct 7, 09 1:01 pm
In other words, my intention wasn't to suggest that typical hardware could in any way achieve the effect, but that an understanding of typical hardware could aid in understanding the custom assembly that zumthor used.
won and done williams
Oct 7, 09 1:02 pm
i don't think manta was claiming that you can just slap a rixson closer on it and call it day, but rather saying that you can learn the principles behind a pivot hinge by looking at an engineered system.
LB_Architects
Oct 7, 09 1:12 pm
I didn't mean to offend...at all! I just assumed because the pictures did not show on his first post people didn't know exactly what the door in question even looked like. I agree with you both about learning the basics and taking it from there...My assumption is that jk3hl already knew the basics because he's not asking about a door with a standard, simple pivot. That's all. No intent to offend or denigrate here.
l3wis
Oct 7, 09 1:36 pm
@holz
Wow, that image of the latch is fantastic! I'll have to look up what 'mortised' means, and what a delrin brushing is, but thanks. =)
@jafidler
Awesome. My door will be doing something pretty similar, and I wasn't even aware Corb had done one.
@manta, FP
Yea - essentially I'll be trying to emulate what Zumthor did, so yes, FP - your description of my end detail will probably be pretty accurate. And yea, manta, I'll definitely be looking up these rixson details to gain a better grasp of the mechanics and more commercial uses of pivot doors.
I feel so puerile when it comes to detailing! We sure are learning quickly this quarter, though. I'll follow the leads you guys gave me and maybe post some sketches of what I'm thinking.
l3wis
Oct 7, 09 2:06 pm
@jafidler
Hey, I just looked at vol I and II of Ford's detailing books, and the only pivoting Corb door I found was the one in Notre-Dame-du-Haut, which isn't really an offcenter pivot like I mentioned. What building is the door you show in that image, from?
won and done williams
Oct 7, 09 2:14 pm
it's from la tourette. i think he also used the same detail at the millowner's building in ahmedabad, india and the sarabhai house among other projects. he used it frequently. sorry, my memory is a bit foggy.
mantaray
Oct 7, 09 2:17 pm
hmm. jk3hl, both the pictures of corbu's door and of zumthor's show a center pivot -- FP is right. "Center", with respect to pivot hinges, does NOT refer to the location of the hinge along the door; rather, it refers to the axis of pivot within the hinge itself. therefore, if the door pivots around a hinge pivot-point that is in line with the center of the door thickness itself, the hinge is called a center-pivot. If the door pivots around a hinge pivot-access that is moved away from the center of the door thickness, it is called an off-set pivot hinge. I don't have time to draw a diagram, but if you look through the rixson hardware I think you'll understand. Locating the hinge further inboard along the door is not a big issue and really just means you'll have to structurally reinforce the door in some way so that it can handle the eccentric stress around the pivot axis.
Which makes me think... FP -- could zumthor's steel pivot axis tube actually just tie into a steel frame around the door, rather than run up inside the door itself? Just thinking... looking at the picture, it looks like that steel pivot tube would only make it to about 1/4 the height of the door, due to where it's located along the base of the triangle. Then I note that it looks like perhaps the door is set within a steel frame -- looks like it could be, no? In which case perhaps the entire steel frame is simply welded to the pivoting tube at the base.
I haven't been there to see it (someday!) so I have no idea. Just thinking...
LB_Architects
Oct 7, 09 2:25 pm
Mantaray...I think what you're describing is most likely correct.
haruki
Dec 10, 22 9:07 pm
The difficult detail with pivot doors if they are exterior doors is the weather stripping. Does anyone have some good solutions for that?
I'm trying to find some details on pivoting doors - I'm designing a door for a studio project and have been looking at Zumthor's door on the Brother Claus Chapel as inspiration.
You can see that it pivots off-center, with no attachment to the jamb. Anyone know where I could look for similar details, or does anyone have ideas or suggestions on how to draw something similar to this in detail?
Thanks!
if it was wood, it'd be easy... mortised into the bottom rail, and there is a plate which the dowel is welded to that screws the plate in...
as it's metal, and i haven't been there, it's a little harder to wrap my head around. it might just be a dowel cast into the floor that slips into the door. don't forget the delrin bushing so it will glide open/shut.
here is the latch detail, however..
are you talking about the standard corb door? i think there are details for it in ford's details of modern architecture vol.2.
it's far more prosaic, but you could also look for balanced door hardware or rixson pivot hardware.
In case you didn't already know this, and in case this helps, the terms you want to use to search for similar details are : "off-set pivot hinge; sill or floor-mounted; head-mounted". As jafilder mentioned, rixson is a great source for such things. Flipping through their catalogue will give you an idea of how the standard pivot hinge is made and installed, and that should in turn help you figure out exactly what's going on at brother klaus chapel.
I'm pretty certain the door in question is not an offset pivot hinge. Nor is there hardware by Rixson that can do what jk3hl is asking.
If I'm correct, the door in question pivots via a CENTER PIVOT (not an offset pivot) and it is supported only at the floor, not along the side or at the top. It's a custom detail which is probably achieved by embedding and anchoring a structural pipe into the ground that rises 3/4th the height of the door. The door would need to be comprised of structural steel reinforcement members and a pipe just wider than the one protruding from the the ground. And then you simply slip the door over the protruding pipe. There are probably a hundred ways to detail this so it pivots smoothly. It's actually very simple, but standard hardware, as has been suggested, cannot achieve what Zumthor did here.
Here are the links that, for some reason, didn't work for jk3hl.
www.daapspace.daap.uc.edu/~kehlje/klaus1.jpg
www.daapspace.daap.uc.edu/~kehlje/klaus2.jpg
www.daapspace.daap.uc.edu/~kehlje/klaus8.jpg
I just know that when you're in school, you don't even know what the standard hardware does and how it works, so you have no basis of figuring out how the custom detail you're looking at in the magazine and book pictures might be configured. I remember trying to figure out shit like this when I didn't even know yet what a REGULAR detail looked like -- and more importantly, I lacked the vocabulary to even know how or what to look FOR. I was guessing that might be part of the student's problem.
In other words, my intention wasn't to suggest that typical hardware could in any way achieve the effect, but that an understanding of typical hardware could aid in understanding the custom assembly that zumthor used.
i don't think manta was claiming that you can just slap a rixson closer on it and call it day, but rather saying that you can learn the principles behind a pivot hinge by looking at an engineered system.
I didn't mean to offend...at all! I just assumed because the pictures did not show on his first post people didn't know exactly what the door in question even looked like. I agree with you both about learning the basics and taking it from there...My assumption is that jk3hl already knew the basics because he's not asking about a door with a standard, simple pivot. That's all. No intent to offend or denigrate here.
@holz
Wow, that image of the latch is fantastic! I'll have to look up what 'mortised' means, and what a delrin brushing is, but thanks. =)
@jafidler
Awesome. My door will be doing something pretty similar, and I wasn't even aware Corb had done one.
@manta, FP
Yea - essentially I'll be trying to emulate what Zumthor did, so yes, FP - your description of my end detail will probably be pretty accurate. And yea, manta, I'll definitely be looking up these rixson details to gain a better grasp of the mechanics and more commercial uses of pivot doors.
I feel so puerile when it comes to detailing! We sure are learning quickly this quarter, though. I'll follow the leads you guys gave me and maybe post some sketches of what I'm thinking.
@jafidler
Hey, I just looked at vol I and II of Ford's detailing books, and the only pivoting Corb door I found was the one in Notre-Dame-du-Haut, which isn't really an offcenter pivot like I mentioned. What building is the door you show in that image, from?
it's from la tourette. i think he also used the same detail at the millowner's building in ahmedabad, india and the sarabhai house among other projects. he used it frequently. sorry, my memory is a bit foggy.
hmm. jk3hl, both the pictures of corbu's door and of zumthor's show a center pivot -- FP is right. "Center", with respect to pivot hinges, does NOT refer to the location of the hinge along the door; rather, it refers to the axis of pivot within the hinge itself. therefore, if the door pivots around a hinge pivot-point that is in line with the center of the door thickness itself, the hinge is called a center-pivot. If the door pivots around a hinge pivot-access that is moved away from the center of the door thickness, it is called an off-set pivot hinge. I don't have time to draw a diagram, but if you look through the rixson hardware I think you'll understand. Locating the hinge further inboard along the door is not a big issue and really just means you'll have to structurally reinforce the door in some way so that it can handle the eccentric stress around the pivot axis.
Which makes me think... FP -- could zumthor's steel pivot axis tube actually just tie into a steel frame around the door, rather than run up inside the door itself? Just thinking... looking at the picture, it looks like that steel pivot tube would only make it to about 1/4 the height of the door, due to where it's located along the base of the triangle. Then I note that it looks like perhaps the door is set within a steel frame -- looks like it could be, no? In which case perhaps the entire steel frame is simply welded to the pivoting tube at the base.
I haven't been there to see it (someday!) so I have no idea. Just thinking...
Mantaray...I think what you're describing is most likely correct.
The difficult detail with pivot doors if they are exterior doors is the weather stripping. Does anyone have some good solutions for that?