I am a recent graduate with a BA in architecture from UC Berkeley, (yes still fresh and young, ready to be butchered) and is hoping to get a fulltime paid internship mainly in CA, NY or in London, Copenhagen. I am just wondering what is the difference in working in the states vs in London or CPH, mainly in pay, benefits, opportunities, etc.
I am aware that pay for internships is low, and many are unpaid, though things are trying to change for the better. Any comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome.
Thanks a bunch! Cheers~
IamGray
Jun 8, 11 5:24 pm
Well, you're right. In Europe, the situation for internships can be pretty grim.
You're looking at probably earning only 300-900euros /mth. In Berlin, you could possibly swing-it financially, but In Copenhagen or Amsterdam, forget about it.
Being a Praktikant/Stagiaire/Trainee/Intern is the dirty punishment that European students have to endure for attending essentially tuition-free universities.
That isn't to say that I don't recommend going that route altogether (those things can often lead to real jobs down the line, and the experience is for some worthwhile ), but if you're already saddled with debt and/or care about maintaining a nice standard of living, I'd caution against it.
jesslai
Jun 28, 11 10:45 pm
Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions. :) I will definitely reconsider my options, seeing how it's really tough to get by only with 300-900 euros/mnth.
miesian
Jun 29, 11 3:41 pm
What internship means in the US is not the same in Europe, and it also varies between each country in Europe. In most countries outside the US, intern means you are still in school. It is often required by schools that students fulfill a certain amount of internship while in school, and the pay is determined by that country’s labor laws usually amounting to minimum wage. Once you graduate, you are pretty much an Architect - it’s not like the US, which is pretty extreme.
Once again, this varies for each country, and it doesn’t mean that you can’t get an internship once you’re out of school. But if you’ve graduated already, you shouldn’t technically be looking for internships in Europe. You need to do more research and narrow it down a bit so you can find more specifics about where you might fit in a certain country given that you did not go through their system. A lot of this obviously depends on your personal skills and experience as well.
jplourde
Jul 4, 11 8:03 pm
What miesian said. If you matriculated in the States, you ain't an intern in the EU.
However, a BA ain't the same as a BArch so what do I know...
nils
Jul 13, 11 10:15 am
Just to add some info about EU, and especially France ( not a fancy destination for interns I guess..)
1. Internship statuts in France means there is a internship contract between student, employer and university. There is no way you can gain Intern status without beeing registred in a Uni ( which means paying entry fees for the year ( quite cheap over here..)).
This gives you the ability to enter a 6 months Internship time, with a minimum wage aligned with the minimum legal salary ( around 1365 euros/months gross).
2. The Erasmus program within europe gives the possibility for all EU residents to gain a scholarship ( around 700 euros / months). It settles a contract with the uni and arch firm, that can ( no obligation) add a salary or "contribution" which is usually around 410 euros ( over that amount, the government collects taxes that raise the cost of intern quickly).
3. Exceptionnaly, the Erasmus and certain country programs ( such as Spain with the Becas Argo program), allow non students ( post graduate then) to benefit from their Scholarship program
No idea how it works in other EU countries...
For those who ask themselves of how to choose an internship, i'd say it depends on what you want to learn, how you wish to work for the rest of your life ( create your own firm, join a corporate ( eek ties...) firm, or just do something else...My experience, from student to intern, to short work times in various offices before creating my office was that the smaller companies give you the opportunities to learn all the aspects you need to learn to be on your own later, when the bigger firms give you a partial view of usually much bigger projects, you are not likely to see on your own before 10-20 years of independant practice. You will gain methods, rules, how not to oversleep, and sharpness which will be usefull in corporate or already installed office... the examples of former interns at Oma or such, starting their own business out of the box and beeing successful is not very convincing statistically speaking ( not to mention most of them were not interns after a while but stayed years...)
My advise would be to try to imagine how you want to work for the next decade, what your goal is ( make $..? pay debts?...learn before beeing independant...?). I have chosen 10 years of " learnship" ( internship + work in various firms) that convinced me I could not stand orders, bad leading, bad architecture choices...I'm pretty happy with that choice now...am not rich, but am free to design how I want it!
Nils
jesslai
Jul 23, 11 9:14 pm
Thank you everyone for the super helpful comments + advices!
miesian - Thanks for the heads up, I have noticed that most firms that are asking for interns, don't hire full time, and will give school credits, which does no help for me being no longer student status...I will definitely make that clear. I presume an architect/designer assistant or in UK Part 1 assistant is more appropriate?
jplourde - Yes, BA is very different from BArch...as far as I can tell, I think we are far less prepared in the basics and technical understandings, however more emphasis on social issues, theories, concepts, and critical thinking.
18x32 - eek....an misunderstanding like that sounds like a disaster...to my understanding it's easier to find a firm willing to hire then apply the permit with office. Thanks for the BIG tip, I will make that very clear.
Nils - I would love to work in France, however I don't know any Frech so that pretty much kills most opportunities. Thanks for the clear internship status and erasmus program, I met a lot of EU students abroad that are under that umbrella. I think in Denmark (was only there for half a yr) they also have something similar.
As for which kind of firm, I think since I am just starting, big or small both can offer me lots of learning experiments. Within a larger firm I can experience how a company is run and functions, how big projects are designed and realized. Yet within a small firm, I am more likely to see the whole process of a project, and more chances of following it not just partial views.
I see myself going for a similar approach of "learnship." It's too early to say how I will hold up under orders, though I would hate being a CAD monkey forever. As for owning my own firm, I am not sure if I can take up the huge responsibility, though being free to design is an alluring point. For now, my focus is to get various experiences, esp following a small scale project through its whole process, and be able to earn enough to survive. I do have a small debt to repay to the gov....so def going to a poor university graduate...
tungdinh
Jul 12, 16 3:54 am
Hi Jesslai, please update us. Did you do internship in Europe? I am about to finish school and considering working in Europe. Please give us advice. Thank you!!
Hello~
I am a recent graduate with a BA in architecture from UC Berkeley, (yes still fresh and young, ready to be butchered) and is hoping to get a fulltime paid internship mainly in CA, NY or in London, Copenhagen. I am just wondering what is the difference in working in the states vs in London or CPH, mainly in pay, benefits, opportunities, etc.
I am aware that pay for internships is low, and many are unpaid, though things are trying to change for the better. Any comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome.
Thanks a bunch! Cheers~
Well, you're right. In Europe, the situation for internships can be pretty grim.
You're looking at probably earning only 300-900euros /mth. In Berlin, you could possibly swing-it financially, but In Copenhagen or Amsterdam, forget about it.
Being a Praktikant/Stagiaire/Trainee/Intern is the dirty punishment that European students have to endure for attending essentially tuition-free universities.
That isn't to say that I don't recommend going that route altogether (those things can often lead to real jobs down the line, and the experience is for some worthwhile ), but if you're already saddled with debt and/or care about maintaining a nice standard of living, I'd caution against it.
Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions. :) I will definitely reconsider my options, seeing how it's really tough to get by only with 300-900 euros/mnth.
What internship means in the US is not the same in Europe, and it also varies between each country in Europe. In most countries outside the US, intern means you are still in school. It is often required by schools that students fulfill a certain amount of internship while in school, and the pay is determined by that country’s labor laws usually amounting to minimum wage. Once you graduate, you are pretty much an Architect - it’s not like the US, which is pretty extreme.
Once again, this varies for each country, and it doesn’t mean that you can’t get an internship once you’re out of school. But if you’ve graduated already, you shouldn’t technically be looking for internships in Europe. You need to do more research and narrow it down a bit so you can find more specifics about where you might fit in a certain country given that you did not go through their system. A lot of this obviously depends on your personal skills and experience as well.
What miesian said. If you matriculated in the States, you ain't an intern in the EU.
However, a BA ain't the same as a BArch so what do I know...
Just to add some info about EU, and especially France ( not a fancy destination for interns I guess..)
1. Internship statuts in France means there is a internship contract between student, employer and university. There is no way you can gain Intern status without beeing registred in a Uni ( which means paying entry fees for the year ( quite cheap over here..)).
This gives you the ability to enter a 6 months Internship time, with a minimum wage aligned with the minimum legal salary ( around 1365 euros/months gross).
2. The Erasmus program within europe gives the possibility for all EU residents to gain a scholarship ( around 700 euros / months). It settles a contract with the uni and arch firm, that can ( no obligation) add a salary or "contribution" which is usually around 410 euros ( over that amount, the government collects taxes that raise the cost of intern quickly).
3. Exceptionnaly, the Erasmus and certain country programs ( such as Spain with the Becas Argo program), allow non students ( post graduate then) to benefit from their Scholarship program
No idea how it works in other EU countries...
For those who ask themselves of how to choose an internship, i'd say it depends on what you want to learn, how you wish to work for the rest of your life ( create your own firm, join a corporate ( eek ties...) firm, or just do something else...My experience, from student to intern, to short work times in various offices before creating my office was that the smaller companies give you the opportunities to learn all the aspects you need to learn to be on your own later, when the bigger firms give you a partial view of usually much bigger projects, you are not likely to see on your own before 10-20 years of independant practice. You will gain methods, rules, how not to oversleep, and sharpness which will be usefull in corporate or already installed office... the examples of former interns at Oma or such, starting their own business out of the box and beeing successful is not very convincing statistically speaking ( not to mention most of them were not interns after a while but stayed years...)
My advise would be to try to imagine how you want to work for the next decade, what your goal is ( make $..? pay debts?...learn before beeing independant...?). I have chosen 10 years of " learnship" ( internship + work in various firms) that convinced me I could not stand orders, bad leading, bad architecture choices...I'm pretty happy with that choice now...am not rich, but am free to design how I want it!
Nils
Thank you everyone for the super helpful comments + advices!
miesian - Thanks for the heads up, I have noticed that most firms that are asking for interns, don't hire full time, and will give school credits, which does no help for me being no longer student status...I will definitely make that clear. I presume an architect/designer assistant or in UK Part 1 assistant is more appropriate?
jplourde - Yes, BA is very different from BArch...as far as I can tell, I think we are far less prepared in the basics and technical understandings, however more emphasis on social issues, theories, concepts, and critical thinking.
18x32 - eek....an misunderstanding like that sounds like a disaster...to my understanding it's easier to find a firm willing to hire then apply the permit with office. Thanks for the BIG tip, I will make that very clear.
Nils - I would love to work in France, however I don't know any Frech so that pretty much kills most opportunities. Thanks for the clear internship status and erasmus program, I met a lot of EU students abroad that are under that umbrella. I think in Denmark (was only there for half a yr) they also have something similar.
As for which kind of firm, I think since I am just starting, big or small both can offer me lots of learning experiments. Within a larger firm I can experience how a company is run and functions, how big projects are designed and realized. Yet within a small firm, I am more likely to see the whole process of a project, and more chances of following it not just partial views.
I see myself going for a similar approach of "learnship." It's too early to say how I will hold up under orders, though I would hate being a CAD monkey forever. As for owning my own firm, I am not sure if I can take up the huge responsibility, though being free to design is an alluring point. For now, my focus is to get various experiences, esp following a small scale project through its whole process, and be able to earn enough to survive. I do have a small debt to repay to the gov....so def going to a poor university graduate...
Hi Jesslai, please update us. Did you do internship in Europe? I am about to finish school and considering working in Europe. Please give us advice. Thank you!!