Most students at my school fill every presentation of theirs with verbal clutter like "sort-of" and "kind-of". I.e "My project is, you know, sort of about the dialectic that kind of exists between the critical project, you know, and the sort of synthetic project". Okay, I know that was a bad example, but still...
So what does "sort-of" do? It is, I guess, a more intellectual way of saying "ummm" or "uhhh" (giving you time to think about what you're about to say) or it's a way of expressing uncertainty (a less tactful way of saying "as it were") about the words you are using to describe your project. That's an understandable and legitimate sentiment, but it's still really annoying.
I know I am not the world's best writer or orator. I too throw in "sort of" occasionally. But come on, guys: I counted one of my classmates saying "sort of" 160 times in a 10 minute presentation. I would say this is only slightly above average for my school.
Let's fix this problems together! Any suggestions on how?
med.
Jan 30, 09 11:04 am
My big "clutter word" was 'just.' Example: I just.... It was just.... I was just...
I got scolded for it and never used the word again.
There are a lot of words I need to try to eliminate from my vocab:
Like
Sorta
Kinda
Basically
It's hard man....
liberty bell
Jan 30, 09 11:08 am
Could the alternative could be worse.
I use "sort of" when I could say "evocative of" or "redolent" or "resonant" . Which would bug you more in a crit?
citizen
Jan 30, 09 11:33 am
Most people are not consciously aware of this bad, bad habit, I would bet. (Witness the smudging of Caroline Kennedy's reputation in that recent interview.)
My strong hunch is that these words are unconsciously used as qualifiers and softeners. Rather than commit to "My project is about making big, bold forms," it may seem safer to hedge with, "My project is, you know, about making big, bold forms, kind of."
Take a stand, folks!
ff33º
Jan 30, 09 11:35 am
thi sthread is true at my school tooo! must be an epidemic
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 11:45 am
It depends on how its being used - usually it is a speech-filler to satisfy the assumption that one must continue verbalizing to maintain credibility.
I hate it.
I was a communications minor while studying for undergrad. When I suggested the addition of at least a basic public speaking course with some fantastic professors I was given such a brush off it really surprised me that of all the skills considered important in design school, being able to effectively dialogue with a group was bottom of the barrel.
Lack of verbal/presentation skills is a common complaint from critics, employers, clients and the public.
farwest1
Jan 30, 09 12:12 pm
I listened to a Rem Koolhaas lecture once where he referred to everything as "sort of." Coming from him, it sounded eloquent and cutting-edge. But we can't all be Rem Koolhaas.
send them back to high school until they can figure out "um" is the only space filler allowed.
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 12:50 pm
No its not. Just pause and collect your thoughts. All that extraneous verbalizing is the result of anxiety and being unfamiliar with what its like to be on spot.
I am going to run a design school that employs The Dog Whisperer.
binary
Jan 30, 09 12:58 pm
'basically' i hate when that is used when explaining
citizen
Jan 30, 09 1:01 pm
Sorry, but even superstarchitects sound dumb when overusing superfluous filler words. A Dutch accent can't hide sloppy speech.
WonderK
Jan 30, 09 1:14 pm
Essentially! :o)
b3tadine[sutures]
Jan 30, 09 1:17 pm
no, no, no...the phrase i can't stand is "you know what i'm saying?" it's code for, i have no idea what the hell i am talking about, so you splain it to me, please.
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 1:20 pm
Jess, lucy, joo splain dis to me!
FrankLloydMike
Jan 30, 09 1:46 pm
I agree. Everything must be absolute. There is no time for nuance. Either it is, or it isn't. It can't sort of be.
Bullshit! I know you're complaining about it being a filler, but you're missing the point that "sort of" (etc) is the best description of the world today. It's not modern, it's not postmodern, it's sort of both. It's sort of something else. We should stop pretending we have the answers as opposed to an interim solution, because as architects (or anything), we've got to understand that there is no utopia to attain nor can we accept this and move on; we're charged with finding something that will do for now. Sort of.
So do I get your complaint? Sort of.
Orhan Ayyüce
Jan 30, 09 1:50 pm
like what, you know shit, got it, sort of. sure, basically i said it. like you wouldn't. hey.
brian buchalski
Jan 30, 09 1:54 pm
excellent thread...as baffling as it is that many people sabotage themselves with poor verbal & body language, it's equally perplexing how many of them are unaware of it.
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 2:00 pm
FLM - thats not my point at all. I think you are rationalizing a lack of experience in communication. Nuance is intentional. 'Um, the sort of like kind of, you know, yeah but, but..but..but..' is not nuance, its a conflict between autopilot going 'keep talking! KEEP TALKING!' and the intellect working to share something relevant.
I don't believe that effective communication stems from a knowledge of absolute answers for every question. I believe effective communication requires a sophisticated sense of participation which can only happen through become conscious of your bad habits, your good habits, and learning how to make what you say matter. Where you are speaking from, psychological, is the foundation.
FrankLloydMike
Jan 30, 09 2:10 pm
peridot, you're right. But I don't the initial post is commenting as much on the drivel that you mention as it is on the liminal qualities of a lot of architecture. I think "sort of" when used as mentioned in the initial post is just as often an apt answer to a question (so long as it is an interim answer and accompanying by greater thought) as it is an annoying habit.
And if all this is is a complaint about bad habits, I'm happy to join but there are a number of other threads on the same topic.
citizen
Jan 30, 09 2:11 pm
An interesting corollary to peridot's point is the elusive ability to say nothing while mentally searching for the right word or phrase.
I've watched accomplished speakers (pro and amateur) go silent for a beat or two (or three!) while finishing a sentence. Silence. Not "uhhhhhh" or "ummmm" or "basically." Just silence, and then the discussion continues.
And no one I know looks askance at that style. But the "you knows" and "sort ofs" quickly become noticeable.
Sort of.
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 2:27 pm
I'm not satisfied in complaining, though it would seem as such. Rather, I'd like to equip myself to act as a skilled educator in regards to this issue.
I think its a very american-public-education behavior in which to not respond so as to make a very intentional and pointed response is seen as being 'stupid' since, obviously, making noise in the shape of words and in imitation of sentence suggests a passing and acceptable form of intelligence, i.e. raise your hand and regurgitate teacher's questions!
Cranky Pantz
Jan 30, 09 2:47 pm
this still may be better than all those horrid "UMMMM, UMMMM". so annoying
Carl Douglas (agfa8x)
Jan 30, 09 3:21 pm
i don't care about just, sort of, like, whatever. but when someone starts with the rising inflections at the end of every sentence i just want to kill something.
n400
Jan 30, 09 3:26 pm
If I don't go, "ummm uhh uhhhmm," how will you know that I'm thinking?
cartagena7
Jan 30, 09 3:39 pm
Peridot,
Good point. I'm not shakespeare, but I also thought about the American-public education connection to vacuous speaking trends, mostly in teenagers. I didn't attend school in an English-speaking country, and when I arrived in the US in my 20's, I felt out of place talking to people speaking in a cliched way. I saw them intellectually inferior even though I'm sure they thought the same about me for having a foreign accent. Funny isn't it?
Emilio
Jan 30, 09 3:47 pm
The speeches in front of a jury in architecture school are not some of my fondest memories, but if I were to do them now, simplification is the key: it sounds more confident and direct. So if you take out the "sort ofs" and "kind ofs" it would be:
My project is about the dialectic that exists between the critical project and the synthetic project.
short and sweet
liberty bell
Jan 30, 09 3:50 pm
citizen, good point about silence being OK (and I think that backs up your point too, right, peridot?). I can name off the top of my head three very smart people who I have seen lecture who will just go silent while they find the right word. And invariably it IS the right word - and also, invariably, it is NOT the one I was mentally trying to fill in for them, it's better than mine!
Hasselhoff
Jan 30, 09 4:04 pm
Peridot, I say you start a design school with Dogg the Bounty Hunter. If you say "sort of" "kinda" etc, he sprays you with mace or his pepper spray paint ball gun. When you are weened off that habit, he is real nice to you and talks about Jesus and whatnot. Maybe you get bonus points if you refer to your critics as "bra."
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 4:22 pm
'Maybe you get bonus points if you refer to your critics as "bra.""
Thats rule #1 for providing an effective crit. Especially for west-coast american wymyn.
"And invariably it IS the right word - and also, invariably, it is NOT the one I was mentally trying to fill in for them, it's better than mine!"
Same! How much I am prompted to reflect upon my own ability to appraise something is how I judge the skill level of a communicator. Some people are all business but it 'feels' like play. Others are all play but good lord does it feel like business.
"My project is about the dialectic that exists between the critical project and the synthetic project."
This is a pet peeve, not sure if its necessary to critisize, but I abhor (thats right!) this as much as 'oh, you know, its sort-of touching on the..'. Yes! We know its YOUR project, please only inform us when you are referencing what is NOT your project. We are sitting in this crit facing you and your blue foam models with your rushed archD formatted plots listening to an endless string of archi-jargon while attempting to stay awake and rephrase what your prof said in a desk crit three weeks ago.
The best jury experiences I've had have been small and relaxed because they were round table - students just brought things up they were excited about and as a group we reviewed them with critics who were relieved they were having refreshing conversation, students who were energized enough to participate and professors who could take the back seat for once.
Ok - I hijacked the threat to complain about my experience in crits. I admit, I feed on complaints. I am sure thats in the 'Stuff White People Like' blog somewhere.
Emilio
Jan 30, 09 4:29 pm
Very true, britches, the speechifying should be short and to the point, and saying "my project" is redundant; I used it because it was RR's example, not necessarily because I agree with the oratory.
peridotbritches
Jan 30, 09 4:46 pm
My apologies - It is quiet and I am alone in the office. Such a puppeteer, I is.
Carl Douglas (agfa8x)
Jan 30, 09 5:57 pm
i dislike imprecise speech, but sometimes, if you're raising an idea that is ill-formed, or you're just testing out how it sounds, it's important not to pretend that that you've just coughed it up implacable, complete and precious like the Star of Africa. In such cases it can be important to say 'kind of', 'sort of', etc.
Carl Douglas (agfa8x)
Jan 30, 09 5:57 pm
if you know what i mean.
will galloway
Jan 30, 09 6:07 pm
in star trek world everything on the fake side of science is introduced with a "it's some kind of....".
what IS that Mr. Data? It's some kind of hyperspatial architectural treatise, transformed through two dimensions and dropped through quondam's banquet sir.
as one of my favourite prof's used to say when students were being either full of shit or talking empty nonsense....
whatever.
Jan 30, 09 6:29 pm
what the fuck's you're problem jump?
citizen
Jan 30, 09 6:37 pm
Uh oh, Jump. Now you've done it.
But at least he didn't say, "What, you know, the fuck's your problem?"
aspect
Jan 30, 09 10:40 pm
this thread is sort of useless.
aspect
Jan 30, 09 10:41 pm
however i sort of like to use kinda more oftenly...
will galloway
Jan 30, 09 11:00 pm
lol.
no problem.
really.
not everything means something. you know?
LOL. i am still chuckling.
chaos3WA
Jan 30, 09 11:02 pm
wow look at everything i started.
mantaray
Jan 30, 09 11:06 pm
Especially for west-coast american wymyn.
Ahh yes, Ryan... perfect example, right in your own thread, of east coast snide remark about west coast people! Oh, it's too easy. Can I get a "told you so"?
chaos3WA
Jan 30, 09 11:15 pm
manta, what on earth are you talking about?
i wasn't saying anything about west coast people. i was saying stuff about people in general at my school. which happens to be on the east coast, although that doesn't really matter.
i don't think my most recent comment was snide. i just thought it was interesting how many responses this has gotten, since nothing i've ever posted on architect got this many responses so fast!
;)
mantaray
Jan 30, 09 11:24 pm
ahh no, I was referring to another comment on another thread. Don't worry about it. I didn't think you were snide.
Jan 31, 09 8:00 am
jump, you're a coward, just like I thought. And if you're not sure what I mean, go ask one of your Japanese professors, as they do most of your thinking for you anyway.
I'm not laughing, because if I publically trashed someone's work I'd at least have the decency to tell them why. But, to be honest, I didn't even expect much from you.
nmiller.arch
Jan 31, 09 9:33 pm
Now we are getting somewhere!
i don't know what Jump did, but it sounds sort-of-kind-of interesting.
peridotbritches
Feb 1, 09 5:05 pm
I can totally be like snide - manta, I have only love : ) But my love is like a cosmo made of pickle juice de-icing compound.
chatter of clouds
Feb 2, 09 11:10 am
i'm almost through reading Lynch on Lynch and its quite striking how many times Lynch repeats the wordsbeautiful/i] and [i]abstract or their derivatives. it would seem to be a bit of a verbal filler for the an inexplicable quality ...or more to the point, the qualiity of being inexplicable which is seen to be David Lynch's cinematic domain. anyways, he does say he isn't into explaining, explicating, or analyzing his own first-place art therefore taking wind away from criticizing his second-place verbose.
really, i think its unqualified to dismiss the usage of particular words that come across as being "fillers". even the act of filling must mean something unique to the filler and telling to the reader.
citizen
Feb 2, 09 11:19 am
Writing is different than speaking. The (over)use of words on the page is much more deliberate, due to the editing, re-editing, and proofing process of publication.
In speech, you're using words as you go; there's no turning back. Not really the same thing.
citizen
Feb 2, 09 11:21 am
And, anyway, I don't think people are dismissing anything here, only opining on annoying verbal habits.
citizen
Feb 2, 09 12:22 pm
Looks like somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...
Most students at my school fill every presentation of theirs with verbal clutter like "sort-of" and "kind-of". I.e "My project is, you know, sort of about the dialectic that kind of exists between the critical project, you know, and the sort of synthetic project". Okay, I know that was a bad example, but still...
So what does "sort-of" do? It is, I guess, a more intellectual way of saying "ummm" or "uhhh" (giving you time to think about what you're about to say) or it's a way of expressing uncertainty (a less tactful way of saying "as it were") about the words you are using to describe your project. That's an understandable and legitimate sentiment, but it's still really annoying.
I know I am not the world's best writer or orator. I too throw in "sort of" occasionally. But come on, guys: I counted one of my classmates saying "sort of" 160 times in a 10 minute presentation. I would say this is only slightly above average for my school.
Let's fix this problems together! Any suggestions on how?
My big "clutter word" was 'just.' Example: I just.... It was just.... I was just...
I got scolded for it and never used the word again.
There are a lot of words I need to try to eliminate from my vocab:
Like
Sorta
Kinda
Basically
It's hard man....
Could the alternative could be worse.
I use "sort of" when I could say "evocative of" or "redolent" or "resonant" . Which would bug you more in a crit?
Most people are not consciously aware of this bad, bad habit, I would bet. (Witness the smudging of Caroline Kennedy's reputation in that recent interview.)
My strong hunch is that these words are unconsciously used as qualifiers and softeners. Rather than commit to "My project is about making big, bold forms," it may seem safer to hedge with, "My project is, you know, about making big, bold forms, kind of."
Take a stand, folks!
thi sthread is true at my school tooo! must be an epidemic
It depends on how its being used - usually it is a speech-filler to satisfy the assumption that one must continue verbalizing to maintain credibility.
I hate it.
I was a communications minor while studying for undergrad. When I suggested the addition of at least a basic public speaking course with some fantastic professors I was given such a brush off it really surprised me that of all the skills considered important in design school, being able to effectively dialogue with a group was bottom of the barrel.
Lack of verbal/presentation skills is a common complaint from critics, employers, clients and the public.
I listened to a Rem Koolhaas lecture once where he referred to everything as "sort of." Coming from him, it sounded eloquent and cutting-edge. But we can't all be Rem Koolhaas.
send them back to high school until they can figure out "um" is the only space filler allowed.
No its not. Just pause and collect your thoughts. All that extraneous verbalizing is the result of anxiety and being unfamiliar with what its like to be on spot.
I am going to run a design school that employs The Dog Whisperer.
'basically' i hate when that is used when explaining
Sorry, but even superstarchitects sound dumb when overusing superfluous filler words. A Dutch accent can't hide sloppy speech.
Essentially! :o)
no, no, no...the phrase i can't stand is "you know what i'm saying?" it's code for, i have no idea what the hell i am talking about, so you splain it to me, please.
Jess, lucy, joo splain dis to me!
I agree. Everything must be absolute. There is no time for nuance. Either it is, or it isn't. It can't sort of be.
Bullshit! I know you're complaining about it being a filler, but you're missing the point that "sort of" (etc) is the best description of the world today. It's not modern, it's not postmodern, it's sort of both. It's sort of something else. We should stop pretending we have the answers as opposed to an interim solution, because as architects (or anything), we've got to understand that there is no utopia to attain nor can we accept this and move on; we're charged with finding something that will do for now. Sort of.
So do I get your complaint? Sort of.
like what, you know shit, got it, sort of. sure, basically i said it. like you wouldn't. hey.
excellent thread...as baffling as it is that many people sabotage themselves with poor verbal & body language, it's equally perplexing how many of them are unaware of it.
FLM - thats not my point at all. I think you are rationalizing a lack of experience in communication. Nuance is intentional. 'Um, the sort of like kind of, you know, yeah but, but..but..but..' is not nuance, its a conflict between autopilot going 'keep talking! KEEP TALKING!' and the intellect working to share something relevant.
I don't believe that effective communication stems from a knowledge of absolute answers for every question. I believe effective communication requires a sophisticated sense of participation which can only happen through become conscious of your bad habits, your good habits, and learning how to make what you say matter. Where you are speaking from, psychological, is the foundation.
peridot, you're right. But I don't the initial post is commenting as much on the drivel that you mention as it is on the liminal qualities of a lot of architecture. I think "sort of" when used as mentioned in the initial post is just as often an apt answer to a question (so long as it is an interim answer and accompanying by greater thought) as it is an annoying habit.
And if all this is is a complaint about bad habits, I'm happy to join but there are a number of other threads on the same topic.
An interesting corollary to peridot's point is the elusive ability to say nothing while mentally searching for the right word or phrase.
I've watched accomplished speakers (pro and amateur) go silent for a beat or two (or three!) while finishing a sentence. Silence. Not "uhhhhhh" or "ummmm" or "basically." Just silence, and then the discussion continues.
And no one I know looks askance at that style. But the "you knows" and "sort ofs" quickly become noticeable.
Sort of.
I'm not satisfied in complaining, though it would seem as such. Rather, I'd like to equip myself to act as a skilled educator in regards to this issue.
I think its a very american-public-education behavior in which to not respond so as to make a very intentional and pointed response is seen as being 'stupid' since, obviously, making noise in the shape of words and in imitation of sentence suggests a passing and acceptable form of intelligence, i.e. raise your hand and regurgitate teacher's questions!
this still may be better than all those horrid "UMMMM, UMMMM". so annoying
i don't care about just, sort of, like, whatever. but when someone starts with the rising inflections at the end of every sentence i just want to kill something.
If I don't go, "ummm uhh uhhhmm," how will you know that I'm thinking?
Peridot,
Good point. I'm not shakespeare, but I also thought about the American-public education connection to vacuous speaking trends, mostly in teenagers. I didn't attend school in an English-speaking country, and when I arrived in the US in my 20's, I felt out of place talking to people speaking in a cliched way. I saw them intellectually inferior even though I'm sure they thought the same about me for having a foreign accent. Funny isn't it?
The speeches in front of a jury in architecture school are not some of my fondest memories, but if I were to do them now, simplification is the key: it sounds more confident and direct. So if you take out the "sort ofs" and "kind ofs" it would be:
My project is about the dialectic that exists between the critical project and the synthetic project.
short and sweet
citizen, good point about silence being OK (and I think that backs up your point too, right, peridot?). I can name off the top of my head three very smart people who I have seen lecture who will just go silent while they find the right word. And invariably it IS the right word - and also, invariably, it is NOT the one I was mentally trying to fill in for them, it's better than mine!
Peridot, I say you start a design school with Dogg the Bounty Hunter. If you say "sort of" "kinda" etc, he sprays you with mace or his pepper spray paint ball gun. When you are weened off that habit, he is real nice to you and talks about Jesus and whatnot. Maybe you get bonus points if you refer to your critics as "bra."
'Maybe you get bonus points if you refer to your critics as "bra.""
Thats rule #1 for providing an effective crit. Especially for west-coast american wymyn.
"And invariably it IS the right word - and also, invariably, it is NOT the one I was mentally trying to fill in for them, it's better than mine!"
Same! How much I am prompted to reflect upon my own ability to appraise something is how I judge the skill level of a communicator. Some people are all business but it 'feels' like play. Others are all play but good lord does it feel like business.
"My project is about the dialectic that exists between the critical project and the synthetic project."
This is a pet peeve, not sure if its necessary to critisize, but I abhor (thats right!) this as much as 'oh, you know, its sort-of touching on the..'. Yes! We know its YOUR project, please only inform us when you are referencing what is NOT your project. We are sitting in this crit facing you and your blue foam models with your rushed archD formatted plots listening to an endless string of archi-jargon while attempting to stay awake and rephrase what your prof said in a desk crit three weeks ago.
The best jury experiences I've had have been small and relaxed because they were round table - students just brought things up they were excited about and as a group we reviewed them with critics who were relieved they were having refreshing conversation, students who were energized enough to participate and professors who could take the back seat for once.
Ok - I hijacked the threat to complain about my experience in crits. I admit, I feed on complaints. I am sure thats in the 'Stuff White People Like' blog somewhere.
Very true, britches, the speechifying should be short and to the point, and saying "my project" is redundant; I used it because it was RR's example, not necessarily because I agree with the oratory.
My apologies - It is quiet and I am alone in the office. Such a puppeteer, I is.
i dislike imprecise speech, but sometimes, if you're raising an idea that is ill-formed, or you're just testing out how it sounds, it's important not to pretend that that you've just coughed it up implacable, complete and precious like the Star of Africa. In such cases it can be important to say 'kind of', 'sort of', etc.
if you know what i mean.
in star trek world everything on the fake side of science is introduced with a "it's some kind of....".
what IS that Mr. Data? It's some kind of hyperspatial architectural treatise, transformed through two dimensions and dropped through quondam's banquet sir.
as one of my favourite prof's used to say when students were being either full of shit or talking empty nonsense....
whatever.
what the fuck's you're problem jump?
Uh oh, Jump. Now you've done it.
But at least he didn't say, "What, you know, the fuck's your problem?"
this thread is sort of useless.
however i sort of like to use kinda more oftenly...
lol.
no problem.
really.
not everything means something. you know?
LOL. i am still chuckling.
wow look at everything i started.
Ahh yes, Ryan... perfect example, right in your own thread, of east coast snide remark about west coast people! Oh, it's too easy. Can I get a "told you so"?
manta, what on earth are you talking about?
i wasn't saying anything about west coast people. i was saying stuff about people in general at my school. which happens to be on the east coast, although that doesn't really matter.
i don't think my most recent comment was snide. i just thought it was interesting how many responses this has gotten, since nothing i've ever posted on architect got this many responses so fast!
;)
ahh no, I was referring to another comment on another thread. Don't worry about it. I didn't think you were snide.
jump, you're a coward, just like I thought. And if you're not sure what I mean, go ask one of your Japanese professors, as they do most of your thinking for you anyway.
I'm not laughing, because if I publically trashed someone's work I'd at least have the decency to tell them why. But, to be honest, I didn't even expect much from you.
Now we are getting somewhere!
i don't know what Jump did, but it sounds sort-of-kind-of interesting.
I can totally be like snide - manta, I have only love : ) But my love is like a cosmo made of pickle juice de-icing compound.
i'm almost through reading Lynch on Lynch and its quite striking how many times Lynch repeats the wordsbeautiful/i] and [i]abstract or their derivatives. it would seem to be a bit of a verbal filler for the an inexplicable quality ...or more to the point, the qualiity of being inexplicable which is seen to be David Lynch's cinematic domain. anyways, he does say he isn't into explaining, explicating, or analyzing his own first-place art therefore taking wind away from criticizing his second-place verbose.
really, i think its unqualified to dismiss the usage of particular words that come across as being "fillers". even the act of filling must mean something unique to the filler and telling to the reader.
Writing is different than speaking. The (over)use of words on the page is much more deliberate, due to the editing, re-editing, and proofing process of publication.
In speech, you're using words as you go; there's no turning back. Not really the same thing.
And, anyway, I don't think people are dismissing anything here, only opining on annoying verbal habits.
Looks like somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...