What are some of the pro's and con's of using typical commercial windows on a residence? It seems(?) to be the cheapest up-front cost as a way to get large expanses of glass, but am not sure about long term cost, user friendliness, etc. ...?
4arch
Jan 26, 09 2:00 pm
when you say commercial windows are you talking about storefront/curtainwall systems?
sharkswithlasers
Jan 26, 09 2:03 pm
Yep -- that's the stuff.
peridotbritches
Jan 26, 09 2:05 pm
Thermal nightmare!
sharkswithlasers
Jan 26, 09 2:12 pm
Would you expand that a bit, please, Perido?
ihearthepavilion
Jan 26, 09 2:14 pm
Storefront is a thermal nightmare.... as compared to what??
Large expanses of glass are, almost by definition a thermal nightmare...
The thermal performance of any aluminum system has a lot to do with the type of glazing one uses... which can get very pricey...
We usually spec. solarban60... but my current favorite is guardian superneutral 54... I think the U value of that is somewhere between .27 and .29
peridotbritches
Jan 26, 09 2:17 pm
No - I just want to chime in on all the doom and gloom wherever I can. Its what the news tells me to do and I never question the news.
...
THERMAL NIGHTMARE!
4arch
Jan 26, 09 2:24 pm
Can't see why it would be any less user friendly than a manufactured unit. In fact, it might be easier for the end user. If the glass ever gets broken you can just call a storefront company and have them come out and replace it. Try that with a Pella or Marvin unit 20 years down the road.
Termally it really comes down to the glass. That, and just make sure to spec thermally broken mulls.
Only con I can see is that a lot of people would think the rubber gasket on the inside of storefront is too ugly for a house.
sharkswithlasers
Jan 26, 09 4:55 pm
Thanks Pavilion and 4arch for the comments so far --
you too, perido "the thermal nightmare" britches... (not sure if you could fight in the UFC with that nickname...)
Steven Ward
Jan 26, 09 5:11 pm
i don't see any inherent issue with the materials or their installations.
the main problem may be logistical: many commercial vendors don't want to do residential work. i've had storefront vendors tell me flat out that they won't look at a residential job. they worry about quality control, unless the contractor also does commercial work. they worry about dealing with residential clients that require too much hand-holding. they generally steer clear.
4arch
Jan 26, 09 5:31 pm
good point Steven - though in this economy they might be hungry enough not to be so picky, especially some of the smaller shops.
phuyaké
Jan 26, 09 6:01 pm
depending on the manufacturer, there's a slight chance you might run into some warranty issues as well
ihearthepavilion
Jan 26, 09 6:31 pm
Steven makes a great point.. usually the quantity for a residential project is so small that the price per square foot is too high for the budget...
Not sure how a residential application vs. a commercial one would affect why one would get a warrenty and one wouldn't... I have never done residential work.. only commercial...
crave
Jan 27, 09 12:18 am
my recent experience with the use of a commercial curtain wall on a residence did not go so well...the craftsmanship expected on this particular residence was not meant. I think the commercial installer is used to having his product viewed from the sidewalk 40' below...a lot of gaps between mullions (thermal expansion?) and scratches from drills hitting the aluminum framework in tight spaces did not go over too well with the owners.
spark
Jan 27, 09 3:38 am
We recently used both clear anodized aluminum storefront and curtain wall in a new house (Indiana). There were numerous quality issues with the installation (out of plumb and square among them) that were the fault of the installer and not the builder or framer. We integrated some operable units which didn't look as nice as we would have hoped.
I haven't heard any complaints from the owner about the thermal performance. 1" insulated glass and thermally broken storefront/curtain wall components.
dml955i
Jan 27, 09 9:17 am
storefront systems are garbage and curtainwall systems are probably cost prohibitive on a residential project as noted above.
why not use a light commerical/residential aluminum window from someone like Marlin or Fleetwood? I'm sure there are other manuf. out there... Thermally broken aluminum frames with Low-E; Argon filled glass. Can be fixed, operable, or sliders (Fleetwood). NFRC tested with great U-values too.
sharkswithlasers
Jan 27, 09 12:14 pm
Thanks dml....I'll take a look at your alternative suggestions...
Crave and spark -- appreciate the comments per your recent experiences of actually having done this... would you use commercial again? Sounds like unlike some of the earlier comments, you two might've had the opposite experience, in that the typical expected commercial installation didn't meet residential quality expectations...
ihearthepavilion
Jan 27, 09 3:14 pm
dml955i.... why do you think storefront systems are garbage?? Old ones, perhaps.. but new thermally broken systems seem to work for me. Fundamentally, the only differences between storefront and curtainwall is that storefront can't span what curtainwall can (probably not a problem for residential applications) and curtainwall (because it spans so far) inherently drains better than storefront...
You are right though that curtainwall is most likely too expensive.
This whole conversation hinges on what the desired window opening is. How big is it? How is it framed? How high is it off the ground?? is it under an overhange or more exposed? As a system, storefront, could work, but without understanding this particular installation, it is hard to advise for or against it.
As far as installation expectations?? It all depends on your installer.. find a good one and I am sure it will come out looking good. ie no scratches on the finish etc...
dml955i
Jan 27, 09 3:44 pm
Too many bad experiences w/ storefront systems, but you're right - any system's success is dependent on the installers expertise or lack thereof.
I don't like storefront systems because they're cheap and rely too heavily on sealant and backer rod (if Jethro even bothered to install it prior to making a pass with his phat caulking gun) as their primary means of protection. I like having metal flashing with sealant & backer rod (a belt & suspenders approach to waterproofing). Curtainwalls tend to be an engineered system and qualified (read: more expensive) installers/subs are required.
As for those new thermally broken storefront systems - I've seen installers think that the plastic thermal break was the perfect place to screw through for attachment! Yikes!
Window sizes are limited by the maximum piece of glass that you can get - not by the length of the extrusion. Due to weight issues, many monster size windows can't be shipped to the site and installed. They will ship the frame that will have to be glazed in the field.
crave
Jan 28, 09 12:06 am
here are a few photos of the storefront and curtain wall system:
I apologize in advance for the small photos and lack of detail.
laminated glass glued to aluminum frames (pre assembled in a shop) and screwed into place like a window.
large laminated glass panels being glued to the aluminum frame in the field...spaces between the glass panels varied from a 1/2" to an inch. we ended up having to cover the seams with and aluminum beauty strip...kind of killed our idea of an all glass floating box.
glass box with curtain wall behind, notice the black caulked seams, this is what we had to cover with aluminum strips.
sharkswithlasers
Jan 28, 09 11:04 am
Crave -- thanks for the input and the photos. ( Looks like a substantial project! ) Nothing like advice based on actual experience. Just curious, what manufacturer are those? Part of my goal is to be reasonably economical in creating a large expanse of glass... as most are aware, to do "big glass" using residential systems has it's own set of problems, and gets very expensive.
Lead me to think / explore some basic Kawneer, etc.
Antisthenes
Jan 28, 09 12:29 pm
for the right south facing window with the correct solar shading and a trombe wall i see np
great thermal gain for a greenhouse, but why, you like typical commercial mullions look?
cadcroupier
Jan 28, 09 12:52 pm
Kawneer is a good bet for residential projects. 2 projects I was on used them and it went relatively well. Anodized thermally broken aluminum with 1" laminated glass as stated above. Be sure you are working with a commercial glazer and you will be fine. Also look into Hopes Windows.
the manufacturer for the above project was alumiglass
the project is in florida, so everything is impact resistant glass
storefront and curtain wall was $400K
zdphotos
Jan 28, 09 1:08 pm
I noticed Fleetwood has a very biased comparison between their products and storefront:
read that ZD -- interesting about the security issue... Not a giant issue where this house is going to be built, but "screwdriver entry" is notable.
sharkswithlasers
Jan 28, 09 4:15 pm
cadcroupier -- thanks for the input and the link... the Hope windows are really nice... pricey, i'm sure?
Glad to hear your experiences went well...
derrickpayne
Sep 17, 15 9:11 pm
Curtain wall systems or Tube style windows are more commonly used in residential than you might think. I am a 30year practicing Architect. I spec store front and curtain wall systems all the time in my residential projects in the upper end of clients (homes ranging from 1-4 million). I am also an expert in these systems having spent years designing high rise residential towers where they are the more cost effective and a must for wind loading.
"THERMAL NIGHTMARE" wtf??? That is a ridiculous statement coming from someone with Zero knowledge of or in the industry. The reason they are not widely spec'd is cost as they are a premium product and that can make them cost prohibitive.
But for post modern design which is my specialty they are lovely and very easy to install and maintain and are "VERY" energy efficient. There are almost no issues with water penetration and drainage and maintenance.
JeromeS
Sep 17, 15 9:32 pm
What about REHAU? European style window, great thermal performance, make some big units, with some great options.
mightyaa
Sep 18, 15 10:23 am
Zombie thread from 09...
Potter J.
May 30, 16 10:03 am
I dont see any problem with using commercial windows on a residence. Just try to contact and you will see, if it is worthy for them installing it to residental house.
What are some of the pro's and con's of using typical commercial windows on a residence? It seems(?) to be the cheapest up-front cost as a way to get large expanses of glass, but am not sure about long term cost, user friendliness, etc. ...?
when you say commercial windows are you talking about storefront/curtainwall systems?
Yep -- that's the stuff.
Thermal nightmare!
Would you expand that a bit, please, Perido?
Storefront is a thermal nightmare.... as compared to what??
Large expanses of glass are, almost by definition a thermal nightmare...
The thermal performance of any aluminum system has a lot to do with the type of glazing one uses... which can get very pricey...
We usually spec. solarban60... but my current favorite is guardian superneutral 54... I think the U value of that is somewhere between .27 and .29
No - I just want to chime in on all the doom and gloom wherever I can. Its what the news tells me to do and I never question the news.
...
THERMAL NIGHTMARE!
Can't see why it would be any less user friendly than a manufactured unit. In fact, it might be easier for the end user. If the glass ever gets broken you can just call a storefront company and have them come out and replace it. Try that with a Pella or Marvin unit 20 years down the road.
Termally it really comes down to the glass. That, and just make sure to spec thermally broken mulls.
Only con I can see is that a lot of people would think the rubber gasket on the inside of storefront is too ugly for a house.
Thanks Pavilion and 4arch for the comments so far --
you too, perido "the thermal nightmare" britches... (not sure if you could fight in the UFC with that nickname...)
i don't see any inherent issue with the materials or their installations.
the main problem may be logistical: many commercial vendors don't want to do residential work. i've had storefront vendors tell me flat out that they won't look at a residential job. they worry about quality control, unless the contractor also does commercial work. they worry about dealing with residential clients that require too much hand-holding. they generally steer clear.
good point Steven - though in this economy they might be hungry enough not to be so picky, especially some of the smaller shops.
depending on the manufacturer, there's a slight chance you might run into some warranty issues as well
Steven makes a great point.. usually the quantity for a residential project is so small that the price per square foot is too high for the budget...
Not sure how a residential application vs. a commercial one would affect why one would get a warrenty and one wouldn't... I have never done residential work.. only commercial...
my recent experience with the use of a commercial curtain wall on a residence did not go so well...the craftsmanship expected on this particular residence was not meant. I think the commercial installer is used to having his product viewed from the sidewalk 40' below...a lot of gaps between mullions (thermal expansion?) and scratches from drills hitting the aluminum framework in tight spaces did not go over too well with the owners.
We recently used both clear anodized aluminum storefront and curtain wall in a new house (Indiana). There were numerous quality issues with the installation (out of plumb and square among them) that were the fault of the installer and not the builder or framer. We integrated some operable units which didn't look as nice as we would have hoped.
I haven't heard any complaints from the owner about the thermal performance. 1" insulated glass and thermally broken storefront/curtain wall components.
storefront systems are garbage and curtainwall systems are probably cost prohibitive on a residential project as noted above.
why not use a light commerical/residential aluminum window from someone like Marlin or Fleetwood? I'm sure there are other manuf. out there... Thermally broken aluminum frames with Low-E; Argon filled glass. Can be fixed, operable, or sliders (Fleetwood). NFRC tested with great U-values too.
Thanks dml....I'll take a look at your alternative suggestions...
Crave and spark -- appreciate the comments per your recent experiences of actually having done this... would you use commercial again? Sounds like unlike some of the earlier comments, you two might've had the opposite experience, in that the typical expected commercial installation didn't meet residential quality expectations...
dml955i.... why do you think storefront systems are garbage?? Old ones, perhaps.. but new thermally broken systems seem to work for me. Fundamentally, the only differences between storefront and curtainwall is that storefront can't span what curtainwall can (probably not a problem for residential applications) and curtainwall (because it spans so far) inherently drains better than storefront...
You are right though that curtainwall is most likely too expensive.
This whole conversation hinges on what the desired window opening is. How big is it? How is it framed? How high is it off the ground?? is it under an overhange or more exposed? As a system, storefront, could work, but without understanding this particular installation, it is hard to advise for or against it.
As far as installation expectations?? It all depends on your installer.. find a good one and I am sure it will come out looking good. ie no scratches on the finish etc...
Too many bad experiences w/ storefront systems, but you're right - any system's success is dependent on the installers expertise or lack thereof.
I don't like storefront systems because they're cheap and rely too heavily on sealant and backer rod (if Jethro even bothered to install it prior to making a pass with his phat caulking gun) as their primary means of protection. I like having metal flashing with sealant & backer rod (a belt & suspenders approach to waterproofing). Curtainwalls tend to be an engineered system and qualified (read: more expensive) installers/subs are required.
As for those new thermally broken storefront systems - I've seen installers think that the plastic thermal break was the perfect place to screw through for attachment! Yikes!
Window sizes are limited by the maximum piece of glass that you can get - not by the length of the extrusion. Due to weight issues, many monster size windows can't be shipped to the site and installed. They will ship the frame that will have to be glazed in the field.
here are a few photos of the storefront and curtain wall system:
I apologize in advance for the small photos and lack of detail.
laminated glass glued to aluminum frames (pre assembled in a shop) and screwed into place like a window.
large laminated glass panels being glued to the aluminum frame in the field...spaces between the glass panels varied from a 1/2" to an inch. we ended up having to cover the seams with and aluminum beauty strip...kind of killed our idea of an all glass floating box.
glass box with curtain wall behind, notice the black caulked seams, this is what we had to cover with aluminum strips.
Crave -- thanks for the input and the photos. ( Looks like a substantial project! ) Nothing like advice based on actual experience. Just curious, what manufacturer are those? Part of my goal is to be reasonably economical in creating a large expanse of glass... as most are aware, to do "big glass" using residential systems has it's own set of problems, and gets very expensive.
Lead me to think / explore some basic Kawneer, etc.
for the right south facing window with the correct solar shading and a trombe wall i see np
great thermal gain for a greenhouse, but why, you like typical commercial mullions look?
Kawneer is a good bet for residential projects. 2 projects I was on used them and it went relatively well. Anodized thermally broken aluminum with 1" laminated glass as stated above. Be sure you are working with a commercial glazer and you will be fine. Also look into Hopes Windows.
the manufacturer for the above project was alumiglass
the project is in florida, so everything is impact resistant glass
storefront and curtain wall was $400K
I noticed Fleetwood has a very biased comparison between their products and storefront:
http://www.fleetwoodusa.com/Documents/Fixed-Systems-vs-Storefront.php
read that ZD -- interesting about the security issue... Not a giant issue where this house is going to be built, but "screwdriver entry" is notable.
cadcroupier -- thanks for the input and the link... the Hope windows are really nice... pricey, i'm sure?
Glad to hear your experiences went well...
Curtain wall systems or Tube style windows are more commonly used in residential than you might think. I am a 30year practicing Architect. I spec store front and curtain wall systems all the time in my residential projects in the upper end of clients (homes ranging from 1-4 million). I am also an expert in these systems having spent years designing high rise residential towers where they are the more cost effective and a must for wind loading.
"THERMAL NIGHTMARE" wtf???
That is a ridiculous statement coming from someone with Zero knowledge of or in the industry. The reason they are not widely spec'd is cost as they are a premium product and that can make them cost prohibitive.
But for post modern design which is my specialty they are lovely and very easy to install and maintain and are "VERY" energy efficient. There are almost no issues with water penetration and drainage and maintenance.
What about REHAU? European style window, great thermal performance, make some big units, with some great options.
Zombie thread from 09...
I dont see any problem with using commercial windows on a residence. Just try to contact and you will see, if it is worthy for them installing it to residental house.
See for example http://www.basilglass.com/