i'm surprised there hasn't been a discussion on how little architects make in relation to the amount of education we have to have, and as it relates to other professions. it seems like the salaries from all other fields change with the time, but architects salary change very little. why is that?i know many of us just accept what we make, and not complain, let alone do something about it. i've heard all about the rhetoric that architecture is very rewarding, to see something you designed get built is exciting, but that only goes so far when you have to provide for a family.
many of us work long hours with little to show for it in terms of compensation, and a measly bonus at year end if that. with the cost of everything on the rise, developers complain architect's fees are too high when material and construction costs are rising, yet architects are the ones getting the shaft from management, getting fired or getting a pay cut instead of getting support from them to fight for their own employees.
lawyers coming out of law schools make 100k easy in their first year. we come out and make 40K? if not less? historically, how did this come about? is it because we get pushed around? that we're too creatively minded to worry about how much is in our bank account? historically we also have bad business sense, which doesn't help matters. i'm sure no one would mind (except management) that we all raise the pay scale a bit! should we have to accept our fate that we make so little, but our level of education certainly does not pale in comparison to an mba or a lawyer?
so how do we break out of this historically bent perspective that architects shouldn't make the kind of money that we deserve? should we have representation, and hire those smooth talking lawyers to help us in our cause? should we unionize in order to have a collective voice?
You must have skipped the "Architecture is more important than money" classes when you were at school.
nb072
Feb 27, 08 2:59 am
because even with architects' low salaries, the product you produce is already more expensive than the customer is happy to pay for it. it's like supply and demand curve. you can't raise the price of the goods unless the consumer is willing to pay more for the goods. somehow they have to be convinced we're worth it. also, it might help our profit margins if we would eliminate a lot of our industry's inefficiencies.
b3tadine[sutures]
Feb 27, 08 6:54 am
not again.
Steven Ward
Feb 27, 08 7:16 am
i'm surprised there hasn't been a discussion on how little architects make in relation to the amount of education we have to have
this is discussed about once every 3-4 months here, urbanite...
why do you think a union would help?
do lawyers have a union in order to pull the $$$ they do?
with whom would your union negotiate? gensler? eisenman? the principal of a 5-person office?
we're professionals, just like lawyers and doctors and engineers. that means our profession is somewhat self-managed by the practices of its participants. if we undersell each other, we make less. if we try to fly too high with our fees, we better have some value-added to offer that the next guy doesn't have.
and when we talk about undersell we're not just talking about firms who give rock-bottom fee proposals to win a project from another, but also employees, interns, grad students, etc who CHOOSE to work for little or no pay so that they can gain a different kind of compensation: experience of a star architect's office or some specialty realm of practice. these guys feel they gain something and are perfectly willing to take a pay cut - but the consequence is that they shift the market rate scale for employee pay down.
the only way to combat the low pay in the profession at large is for archs to get higher fees. if you think your employer is making plenty of fee but not sharing the love, you need to begin a grassroots effort to shift the culture within the profession.
going OUTSIDE the profession for help - especially, good grief, to lawyers - won't help, i'm afraid...
evilplatypus
Feb 27, 08 9:11 am
"i'm surprised there hasn't been a discussion on how little architects make in relation to the amount of education we have to have"
What makes you think that ....
1. Education = better salary? This is a myth. Education gives you a better salary compared to being noneducated only.
2. That architectural education is valuable? The market is saying otherwise.
3. Would you be ready to learn whats really involved in making a go at this bitch called architecture?
aquapura
Feb 27, 08 9:22 am
Unlike the Hollywood writers, I'm not collecting residuals off that strip mall I did back in '02, thus I can't afford to strike management for more pay.
Honestly, if you want more pay for architects put your money where your mouth is. If you think a wage is too low you can turn down the job. I'm no stranger to that.
I was working for a firm that was busy underbidding other firms just to get work and avoid layoffs. I promptly quit and told them why, as I didn't want to be party to what I see as a problem in this profession.
I'm a huge critic of unpaid internships as well. I was offered some of those as summer jobs and wasn't afraid to say NO. Nevermind the legality of paying a pre-degreed non-professional anything less than min-wage.
So, we can have a collective voice. We don't need a union, we just all need to be on the same page. Drum out the bad managers and firms. I don't care how talented they are, treating employees well should come #1.
quizzical
Feb 27, 08 9:25 am
it's the friggin' lawyers who put us in this position in the first place. the profession once enjoyed widely accepted fee schedules, backed up by a code of ethics, that permitted architects to recover their costs, pay their employees fairly, and enjoy a little profit. back then, one could make a good living in the profession - whether owner or employee.
Peruse the sad history below about how this all came to an end:
"In 1866, an architect sued a client for not paying a bill, which led to the AIA's first standardized fee of 5% of construction cost. Because of the increase in technical knowledge and liability that was being required of architects, it raised its standard fee to 6% in 1908.
Its members were not allowed to advertise, to offer free services, to be a building contractor, or to competitively bid for a project. Members who did not stick to the rules fell out of favor with the AIA.
This practice continued until 1971 when the Justice Department announced its plans to sue the AIA for what they believed to be restraint of trade, a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. In 1972 the AIA decided to enter into a consent decree rather than fight the Justice Department.
A lawsuit by the Justice Department against the Virginia Bar Association on similar grounds determined that using standardized fee schedules amounted to price fixing.
In 1984, after the recession brought construction and the architectural profession to a near halt, the Chicago Chapter of the AIA decided to issue a compensation and fee policy statement, a violation of the consent decree. Unfortunately, the Chicago Chapter printed and distributed the statement to its members before it realized its infraction.
The Justice Department came down hard on the AIA. This time it subpoenaed members, confiscated files, required members to testify before a grand jury, and threatened some with the prospect of criminal prosecution. Eventually, the case was settled by issuing a second consent decree, which stated that it would refrain from rules that would prevent members from submitting competitive bids, providing discounts, or providing free services.
As a result of the second decree, the architectural profession has changed drastically, though some changes were slow in being accepted. Many architects did not advertise their services until just a few years ago, and there are still some who would never consider doing so."
quizzical
Feb 27, 08 9:44 am
mind you, i'm not advocating a return to standard fee schedules. my main point is that the era of fee schedules insulated the lazy, the
inattentive and the timid from having to operate their firms efficiently or negotiate appropriate fees. many firms (and individuals) have never quite figured out how to overcome the ease associated with standard fee schedules.
evilplatypus
Feb 27, 08 10:05 am
thanks quizzical ^ that is spot on. We are still recovering from this era of general laziness and arrogance which we are paying the price for.
4arch
Feb 27, 08 10:12 am
i'm surprised there hasn't been a discussion on how little architects make in relation to the amount of education we have to have, and as it relates to other professions
Aren't this and Obama about the only things we discuss on here anymore? Am I missing something?
le bossman
Feb 27, 08 10:13 am
i'd also add that while there is a perception that architects are starving artists, that isn't really the case. when i first finished grad school in 2005, i made $10/hr (the same as i made when i finished ugrad). now i make $45000/yr, which is plenty enough for a single guy to survive, pay his loans, save some money. i get a 10% raise every year, and it's really only the first year or two when you're exploited. but outside of conceptual design, your education is essentially worthless. i'm not discounting the intellectual value of an architectural education, i wouldn't trade it for the world, but if your pay is low it is often a question of experience. you start at rock bottom, but you can work your way up the ladder both in respect and pay pretty fast if you're a quick study.
as i side note, i'm dating someone right now who only has a ugrad degree and she makes $90000/yr with a company car. it would be easy for me to complain, but in all honesty her job isn't that hard. she works for gatorade. she's definitely over paid, and she admits it. it would be nice to make that much, but i do a dollar's work for a dollar's pay, and i take pride in that. besides, eventually i'll be making that much anyway.
vado retro
Feb 27, 08 10:38 am
QUIT WHINING GODDAMMIT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO TO LAW SCHOOL, MED SCHOOL, ACCOUNTING SCHOOL, GO TO NURSING SCHOOL WHERE THERE IS A DIRE NEED FOR QUALIFIED PEOPLE. JUST QUIT FUCKING WHINING ABOUT IT. IF THIS ISN'T YOUR PASSION THEN JUST WALK AWAY.
snook_dude
Feb 27, 08 10:53 am
I always wondered How much Lady Gator Wrestlers made.
holz.box
Feb 27, 08 11:08 am
generally, i think unions are good for people that perform laborious tasks (detailing doors notwithstanding) that is at threat for being sent elsewhere or wages repressed due to mechanization. whether or not unions are good for the overall economy is another topic.
most other unions are filled with the lazy, weak and overcompensated.
let's take a look... (yay cherry picking!)
teacher's unions:
extremely strong, yet we've got some of the dumbest kids around. well paid, have the ability to walk off the job and they usually have no qualms about that. a 9-month work year doesn't hurt, either. so you have to work nights grading shit - big deal. i sometimes don't sleep working on shit and i'm not complaining... you became a teacher because you loved kids, remember? it takes a lot for a teacher to get fired, no matter how awful she is, thanks to unions. seriously, my kids are attending school in denmark or belgium.
police unions:
extremely strong. almost always insulates cops who do bad things thanks to shoddy deals. in seattle, there's almost no recourse for a cop that beats the shit out of an innocent person, even if caught on tape/witnessed. there's something seriously wrong with that.
airline pilots assn:
seriously, you guys make triple digits after 3-4 years of almost no pay... yet 25+% of you still come to work drunk, fool around on the job and except for newbies most haven't worked a full workweek in a decade.
simples
Feb 27, 08 11:22 am
unions have nothing to do with it; the problem is our profession's willingness to undercut, back stab, and undervalue ourselves constantly; the problem is our profession not being able to recognize what is valuable to our clients, and how we, as architects, can add to that value;
the comparatively low pay for architects is only a symptom of the problems with the profession;
VADO - my passion for architecture is rivaled only for my hatred for our profession.
quizzical
Feb 27, 08 11:43 am
there is no "we / they" here -- we are the profession.
neither can you separate "architecture" from "the profession" -- they are inextricably linked, and always will be, unless you just want to make pretty pictures in an academic setting and don't care about building anything.
evilplatypus
Feb 27, 08 11:58 am
i got an idea - make yourself frigg'n valuable.
simples
Feb 27, 08 11:58 am
quizzical...i was being careful to call it our profession, and "we" as architects...my point is exactly this: we are our own problem here;
on a side note, i always appreciate your point of view in this threads as someone who actually runs an office, you show very good objectivity///
but just to clarify my point, i personally see the profession, and the academics both under the umbrella of architecture...so the profession is not separate from architecture, but not exclusive...(my personal point of view)
simples
Feb 27, 08 12:02 pm
and evil, if your comment was directed to me, all my clients find me and the work i do very valuable...it's important in establishing a healthy working relationship...again, as i just mentioned above 8:58pm, that was my point...
Antisthenes
Feb 27, 08 12:25 pm
That's what the AIA is for, and not all of us 'have to' have that expensive education.
I would think there is too much individualism, tastes, style or how ever you would like to put it for Architects to form a union.
But if any union was to form I would suggest it be a IWW one.
Antisthenes
Feb 27, 08 12:26 pm
Unions are good for all workers to not be taken advantage of by corporations.
evilplatypus
Feb 27, 08 1:14 pm
also factor where you live - some semi urban rural areas have nearly the same pay scale as LA, NYC and about half the costs, and are pretty well off economically.
Steven Ward
Feb 27, 08 1:16 pm
wow, meta. i only make 3.4 times what i made 14 yrs ago. either you started out really cheap or you're rakin' in the bucks now...
evilplatypus
Feb 27, 08 1:20 pm
Hmmm - Im at 2.0 vs. 8 years ago.
urbanite
Feb 27, 08 2:40 pm
"QUIT WHINING GODDAMMIT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO TO LAW SCHOOL, MED SCHOOL, ACCOUNTING SCHOOL, GO TO NURSING SCHOOL WHERE THERE IS A DIRE NEED FOR QUALIFIED PEOPLE. JUST QUIT FUCKING WHINING ABOUT IT. IF THIS ISN'T YOUR PASSION THEN JUST WALK AWAY."
vado, this is exactly what i'm talking about. and it's this type of mentality that keeps us down in the field of construction that everyone seems to be raking it in except for the architect. if you don't think you deserve to get paid more for the service you provide, then that's just sad. this passion you refer to, i used to have it, until i got married, had kids, and reality sank in.
thanks to quizzical for explaining how we got to where we are. but that doesn't mean we can't stir things up a bit. many of you are passionate about this topic, and have offered sage insight into why we are the way we are, but that results in bending over and taking it, and we we end up screwing each other over.
the problem is we're not looking at it from an outsiders point of view. if someone outside the profession tells me i'm not making enough, whether they know the in's and out's of the profession or not, i find myself defending the profession, telling them that it's different...well i'm tired of defending it when we don't even do enough to help ourselves. no union for professionals? in fact, there ARE unions for doctors, and more are joining because the hmo's are screwing them over. we have to deal with substandard benefits, crazy hours, little or no bonus. if there was one for architects, i defy anyone not to entertain the idea of joining it.
vado retro
Feb 27, 08 3:02 pm
something else to cry about, architects cannot by law organize into a union as we are considered management rather than labor.
snook_dude
Feb 27, 08 3:23 pm
I will only Join a Union if it is Lead by a Hoffa....
Steven Ward
Feb 27, 08 3:52 pm
i'll restate my question from earlier: with whom would your union negotiate?
Antisthenes
Feb 27, 08 4:16 pm
the clients and we would protest at offices that low bid ;)
Steven Ward i have you by a few hundredths @ 3.6
snook_dude
Feb 27, 08 4:39 pm
Hoffa would know who to negotiate with.....and who's knee caps to break!
quizzical
Feb 27, 08 4:58 pm
from the standpoint of elevating the level of fees we can charge, the key will be increasing both the actual and perceived value of what we deliver ... clients don't pay us very much because they don't think we deliver very much value ... in fact, they're fearful of cutting us loose to design because they have no way of predicting what the hell we will deliver ... they really do worry that we're more concerned about our own agenda than theirs.
if we can change this reality (which I believe is a task that must be solved internal to the profession) then we can start paying more for the labor that we employ. but, that labor has to be more productive also.
the many threads here that deal with the dearth of productivity skills arriving with recent graduates define the key to that transition. entry level talent cannot -- and will not -- be paid high starting salaries when their ability to contribute during the early months of their employment provides the employing firm a negative return.
in our practice, we really don't worry too much about our competition snaking the job away by quoting lower fees. we deliver great design, we're confident that we deliver exceptional value to our clients, we walk away from work that doesn't offer sufficient compensation, we fire clients who don't pay their bills, and we have more work headed our way than we know how to deliver. this state of being is not about what the "profession" is doing -- it's all about what "we" are doing to build our own practice.
i've said it here before, so i apologize for repeating myself: you cannot be a victim in such matters without your own willful participation
outthere
Feb 27, 08 8:16 pm
We have to get rid of these schools that have accepted the fact that architects dont make that much money and program there students to think that.
I think as a starter those are the roots of the weeds that we have to remove
snook_dude
Feb 27, 08 8:48 pm
Kill the ARCHITECT! akin to Kill the BRICK!
When there are less of us there will be a higher demand for those
who are still around.
vado retro
Feb 27, 08 9:53 pm
meta you are an inspiration!
holz.box
Feb 27, 08 11:47 pm
i always read lead designer as lead (pencil).
don't most of us already negotiate with firms? the problem is once we've got the job locked down, we don't revisit for a proper raise, letting the firm dictate the terms of pay increases. you've got to step up to the meeting, show what you've done/present findings evidence and make your case. i've never gotten a pay raise of less than 10%.
urbanite
Feb 28, 08 12:40 am
well, with nothing in place right now, you would first have to negotiate with the firms, change the firm's mind that they should invest in their employees, that they are valuble assets, and the firms in turn would deal with clients and drive up the fees, but nothing will change until we get the firms on our side, and for that to happen, we would all have to believe that our service and skills are worth it, but even within our own industry we don't see ourselves as worth the hassle, so there you have it, we'll continue to be the bottom feeder of the building industry, but hell, we'll have our passion to put our kids thru college!
hey, i'm just being provocative here, and seeing if there's something to be done to garner some more respect within our own circles. it would seem we are all content to hang our hats on the status quo. i was too until i had a family to support. sucking or not sucking is not the issue. i started out at $20,000 13 years ago with a bachelor and masters degree, now i'm at $80,000 a year, that seems to be reasonable growth, but not really if you compare to other professions.
thanks for the insight, guys! holz.box, you'll have to tell me how you manage a 10%+ raise every time!
holz.box
Feb 28, 08 12:48 am
i'm only a few years out, so 10% isn't that much and switching jobs has helped, but i'm pretty active in keeping things running in the firm (streamlining workflow, introduction of better programs/technques, implementation of white papers, etc) so i'm able to make a good case for myself. that and my s.o. is pretty business-savvy which has rubbed off a bit.
Steven Ward
Feb 28, 08 7:20 am
presumably at $80k/13yrs you'd know how these things work a little better, urbanite.
you would first have to negotiate with the firms
i'm picturing a union rep, a lawyer, and a firm's two employees negotiating with the harried, no-time, principal of a small office. hah!
if we began to qualify the terms of compensation more strictly/exactly in our 12-person office, we'd lose a lot of the 'perks' that come with NOT being so mercenary.
quizzical
Feb 28, 08 7:32 am
"we would all have to believe that our service and skills are worth it"
perhaps I read more into that comment than intended, but this is not a "belief system" - you actually have to deliver value that firms and clients are willing to pay more to receive. the productivity must be demonstrable.
the worst abuses arising from unions (think big-3 automakers) extorted huge pay and benefit increases without providing appropriate improvements in productivity. that's why japan's eating detroit's lunch.
we have staff who ask (demand) big raises, but their work doesn't support such expectations. we have other staff who hit it out of the park each and every day - we have no difficulty paying such staff very well because, quite frankly, it's in our interests to do so. which type of employee do you choose to be?
vado retro
Feb 28, 08 9:11 am
you should occaisonally show up to work in a suit and say you have to leave early for a "doctor's" appointment. and just by coincidence have your portfolio with you that day. and then go have a martini or catch a movie.
babs
Feb 28, 08 10:18 am
yeah -- and you employers should occassionally let it slip around the coffee machine that "hey, I heard that Dewey, Cheathan and Howe had a lay-off last week - you guys know any of the folks they put on the street?"
snook_dude
Feb 28, 08 11:04 am
I will join any Union headed by a Hoffa....as long as Chuck Norris is
the, "Enforcer"
vado retro
Feb 28, 08 11:44 am
employers do do that.
babs
Feb 28, 08 11:49 am
employees do do that, too !
it's a "cat and mouse" world
le bossman
Feb 28, 08 12:32 pm
can you imagine an architect with this sticker on the bumper of his european car
this image alone should end the debate about an architect's union
i'm surprised there hasn't been a discussion on how little architects make in relation to the amount of education we have to have, and as it relates to other professions. it seems like the salaries from all other fields change with the time, but architects salary change very little. why is that?i know many of us just accept what we make, and not complain, let alone do something about it. i've heard all about the rhetoric that architecture is very rewarding, to see something you designed get built is exciting, but that only goes so far when you have to provide for a family.
many of us work long hours with little to show for it in terms of compensation, and a measly bonus at year end if that. with the cost of everything on the rise, developers complain architect's fees are too high when material and construction costs are rising, yet architects are the ones getting the shaft from management, getting fired or getting a pay cut instead of getting support from them to fight for their own employees.
lawyers coming out of law schools make 100k easy in their first year. we come out and make 40K? if not less? historically, how did this come about? is it because we get pushed around? that we're too creatively minded to worry about how much is in our bank account? historically we also have bad business sense, which doesn't help matters. i'm sure no one would mind (except management) that we all raise the pay scale a bit! should we have to accept our fate that we make so little, but our level of education certainly does not pale in comparison to an mba or a lawyer?
so how do we break out of this historically bent perspective that architects shouldn't make the kind of money that we deserve? should we have representation, and hire those smooth talking lawyers to help us in our cause? should we unionize in order to have a collective voice?
[url=http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=68276_0_42_0_C]
architecture "interns", lets unionize ![/url]
You must have skipped the "Architecture is more important than money" classes when you were at school.
because even with architects' low salaries, the product you produce is already more expensive than the customer is happy to pay for it. it's like supply and demand curve. you can't raise the price of the goods unless the consumer is willing to pay more for the goods. somehow they have to be convinced we're worth it. also, it might help our profit margins if we would eliminate a lot of our industry's inefficiencies.
not again.
this is discussed about once every 3-4 months here, urbanite...
why do you think a union would help?
do lawyers have a union in order to pull the $$$ they do?
with whom would your union negotiate? gensler? eisenman? the principal of a 5-person office?
we're professionals, just like lawyers and doctors and engineers. that means our profession is somewhat self-managed by the practices of its participants. if we undersell each other, we make less. if we try to fly too high with our fees, we better have some value-added to offer that the next guy doesn't have.
and when we talk about undersell we're not just talking about firms who give rock-bottom fee proposals to win a project from another, but also employees, interns, grad students, etc who CHOOSE to work for little or no pay so that they can gain a different kind of compensation: experience of a star architect's office or some specialty realm of practice. these guys feel they gain something and are perfectly willing to take a pay cut - but the consequence is that they shift the market rate scale for employee pay down.
the only way to combat the low pay in the profession at large is for archs to get higher fees. if you think your employer is making plenty of fee but not sharing the love, you need to begin a grassroots effort to shift the culture within the profession.
going OUTSIDE the profession for help - especially, good grief, to lawyers - won't help, i'm afraid...
"i'm surprised there hasn't been a discussion on how little architects make in relation to the amount of education we have to have"
What makes you think that ....
1. Education = better salary? This is a myth. Education gives you a better salary compared to being noneducated only.
2. That architectural education is valuable? The market is saying otherwise.
3. Would you be ready to learn whats really involved in making a go at this bitch called architecture?
Unlike the Hollywood writers, I'm not collecting residuals off that strip mall I did back in '02, thus I can't afford to strike management for more pay.
Honestly, if you want more pay for architects put your money where your mouth is. If you think a wage is too low you can turn down the job. I'm no stranger to that.
I was working for a firm that was busy underbidding other firms just to get work and avoid layoffs. I promptly quit and told them why, as I didn't want to be party to what I see as a problem in this profession.
I'm a huge critic of unpaid internships as well. I was offered some of those as summer jobs and wasn't afraid to say NO. Nevermind the legality of paying a pre-degreed non-professional anything less than min-wage.
So, we can have a collective voice. We don't need a union, we just all need to be on the same page. Drum out the bad managers and firms. I don't care how talented they are, treating employees well should come #1.
it's the friggin' lawyers who put us in this position in the first place. the profession once enjoyed widely accepted fee schedules, backed up by a code of ethics, that permitted architects to recover their costs, pay their employees fairly, and enjoy a little profit. back then, one could make a good living in the profession - whether owner or employee.
Peruse the sad history below about how this all came to an end:
"In 1866, an architect sued a client for not paying a bill, which led to the AIA's first standardized fee of 5% of construction cost. Because of the increase in technical knowledge and liability that was being required of architects, it raised its standard fee to 6% in 1908.
Its members were not allowed to advertise, to offer free services, to be a building contractor, or to competitively bid for a project. Members who did not stick to the rules fell out of favor with the AIA.
This practice continued until 1971 when the Justice Department announced its plans to sue the AIA for what they believed to be restraint of trade, a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. In 1972 the AIA decided to enter into a consent decree rather than fight the Justice Department.
A lawsuit by the Justice Department against the Virginia Bar Association on similar grounds determined that using standardized fee schedules amounted to price fixing.
In 1984, after the recession brought construction and the architectural profession to a near halt, the Chicago Chapter of the AIA decided to issue a compensation and fee policy statement, a violation of the consent decree. Unfortunately, the Chicago Chapter printed and distributed the statement to its members before it realized its infraction.
The Justice Department came down hard on the AIA. This time it subpoenaed members, confiscated files, required members to testify before a grand jury, and threatened some with the prospect of criminal prosecution. Eventually, the case was settled by issuing a second consent decree, which stated that it would refrain from rules that would prevent members from submitting competitive bids, providing discounts, or providing free services.
As a result of the second decree, the architectural profession has changed drastically, though some changes were slow in being accepted. Many architects did not advertise their services until just a few years ago, and there are still some who would never consider doing so."
mind you, i'm not advocating a return to standard fee schedules. my main point is that the era of fee schedules insulated the lazy, the
inattentive and the timid from having to operate their firms efficiently or negotiate appropriate fees. many firms (and individuals) have never quite figured out how to overcome the ease associated with standard fee schedules.
thanks quizzical ^ that is spot on. We are still recovering from this era of general laziness and arrogance which we are paying the price for.
Aren't this and Obama about the only things we discuss on here anymore? Am I missing something?
i'd also add that while there is a perception that architects are starving artists, that isn't really the case. when i first finished grad school in 2005, i made $10/hr (the same as i made when i finished ugrad). now i make $45000/yr, which is plenty enough for a single guy to survive, pay his loans, save some money. i get a 10% raise every year, and it's really only the first year or two when you're exploited. but outside of conceptual design, your education is essentially worthless. i'm not discounting the intellectual value of an architectural education, i wouldn't trade it for the world, but if your pay is low it is often a question of experience. you start at rock bottom, but you can work your way up the ladder both in respect and pay pretty fast if you're a quick study.
as i side note, i'm dating someone right now who only has a ugrad degree and she makes $90000/yr with a company car. it would be easy for me to complain, but in all honesty her job isn't that hard. she works for gatorade. she's definitely over paid, and she admits it. it would be nice to make that much, but i do a dollar's work for a dollar's pay, and i take pride in that. besides, eventually i'll be making that much anyway.
QUIT WHINING GODDAMMIT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO TO LAW SCHOOL, MED SCHOOL, ACCOUNTING SCHOOL, GO TO NURSING SCHOOL WHERE THERE IS A DIRE NEED FOR QUALIFIED PEOPLE. JUST QUIT FUCKING WHINING ABOUT IT. IF THIS ISN'T YOUR PASSION THEN JUST WALK AWAY.
I always wondered How much Lady Gator Wrestlers made.
generally, i think unions are good for people that perform laborious tasks (detailing doors notwithstanding) that is at threat for being sent elsewhere or wages repressed due to mechanization. whether or not unions are good for the overall economy is another topic.
most other unions are filled with the lazy, weak and overcompensated.
let's take a look... (yay cherry picking!)
teacher's unions:
extremely strong, yet we've got some of the dumbest kids around. well paid, have the ability to walk off the job and they usually have no qualms about that. a 9-month work year doesn't hurt, either. so you have to work nights grading shit - big deal. i sometimes don't sleep working on shit and i'm not complaining... you became a teacher because you loved kids, remember? it takes a lot for a teacher to get fired, no matter how awful she is, thanks to unions. seriously, my kids are attending school in denmark or belgium.
police unions:
extremely strong. almost always insulates cops who do bad things thanks to shoddy deals. in seattle, there's almost no recourse for a cop that beats the shit out of an innocent person, even if caught on tape/witnessed. there's something seriously wrong with that.
airline pilots assn:
seriously, you guys make triple digits after 3-4 years of almost no pay... yet 25+% of you still come to work drunk, fool around on the job and except for newbies most haven't worked a full workweek in a decade.
unions have nothing to do with it; the problem is our profession's willingness to undercut, back stab, and undervalue ourselves constantly; the problem is our profession not being able to recognize what is valuable to our clients, and how we, as architects, can add to that value;
the comparatively low pay for architects is only a symptom of the problems with the profession;
VADO - my passion for architecture is rivaled only for my hatred for our profession.
there is no "we / they" here -- we are the profession.
neither can you separate "architecture" from "the profession" -- they are inextricably linked, and always will be, unless you just want to make pretty pictures in an academic setting and don't care about building anything.
i got an idea - make yourself frigg'n valuable.
quizzical...i was being careful to call it our profession, and "we" as architects...my point is exactly this: we are our own problem here;
on a side note, i always appreciate your point of view in this threads as someone who actually runs an office, you show very good objectivity///
but just to clarify my point, i personally see the profession, and the academics both under the umbrella of architecture...so the profession is not separate from architecture, but not exclusive...(my personal point of view)
and evil, if your comment was directed to me, all my clients find me and the work i do very valuable...it's important in establishing a healthy working relationship...again, as i just mentioned above 8:58pm, that was my point...
That's what the AIA is for, and not all of us 'have to' have that expensive education.
I would think there is too much individualism, tastes, style or how ever you would like to put it for Architects to form a union.
But if any union was to form I would suggest it be a IWW one.
Unions are good for all workers to not be taken advantage of by corporations.
also factor where you live - some semi urban rural areas have nearly the same pay scale as LA, NYC and about half the costs, and are pretty well off economically.
wow, meta. i only make 3.4 times what i made 14 yrs ago. either you started out really cheap or you're rakin' in the bucks now...
Hmmm - Im at 2.0 vs. 8 years ago.
"QUIT WHINING GODDAMMIT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO TO LAW SCHOOL, MED SCHOOL, ACCOUNTING SCHOOL, GO TO NURSING SCHOOL WHERE THERE IS A DIRE NEED FOR QUALIFIED PEOPLE. JUST QUIT FUCKING WHINING ABOUT IT. IF THIS ISN'T YOUR PASSION THEN JUST WALK AWAY."
vado, this is exactly what i'm talking about. and it's this type of mentality that keeps us down in the field of construction that everyone seems to be raking it in except for the architect. if you don't think you deserve to get paid more for the service you provide, then that's just sad. this passion you refer to, i used to have it, until i got married, had kids, and reality sank in.
thanks to quizzical for explaining how we got to where we are. but that doesn't mean we can't stir things up a bit. many of you are passionate about this topic, and have offered sage insight into why we are the way we are, but that results in bending over and taking it, and we we end up screwing each other over.
the problem is we're not looking at it from an outsiders point of view. if someone outside the profession tells me i'm not making enough, whether they know the in's and out's of the profession or not, i find myself defending the profession, telling them that it's different...well i'm tired of defending it when we don't even do enough to help ourselves. no union for professionals? in fact, there ARE unions for doctors, and more are joining because the hmo's are screwing them over. we have to deal with substandard benefits, crazy hours, little or no bonus. if there was one for architects, i defy anyone not to entertain the idea of joining it.
something else to cry about, architects cannot by law organize into a union as we are considered management rather than labor.
I will only Join a Union if it is Lead by a Hoffa....
i'll restate my question from earlier: with whom would your union negotiate?
the clients and we would protest at offices that low bid ;)
Steven Ward i have you by a few hundredths @ 3.6
Hoffa would know who to negotiate with.....and who's knee caps to break!
from the standpoint of elevating the level of fees we can charge, the key will be increasing both the actual and perceived value of what we deliver ... clients don't pay us very much because they don't think we deliver very much value ... in fact, they're fearful of cutting us loose to design because they have no way of predicting what the hell we will deliver ... they really do worry that we're more concerned about our own agenda than theirs.
if we can change this reality (which I believe is a task that must be solved internal to the profession) then we can start paying more for the labor that we employ. but, that labor has to be more productive also.
the many threads here that deal with the dearth of productivity skills arriving with recent graduates define the key to that transition. entry level talent cannot -- and will not -- be paid high starting salaries when their ability to contribute during the early months of their employment provides the employing firm a negative return.
in our practice, we really don't worry too much about our competition snaking the job away by quoting lower fees. we deliver great design, we're confident that we deliver exceptional value to our clients, we walk away from work that doesn't offer sufficient compensation, we fire clients who don't pay their bills, and we have more work headed our way than we know how to deliver. this state of being is not about what the "profession" is doing -- it's all about what "we" are doing to build our own practice.
i've said it here before, so i apologize for repeating myself: you cannot be a victim in such matters without your own willful participation
We have to get rid of these schools that have accepted the fact that architects dont make that much money and program there students to think that.
I think as a starter those are the roots of the weeds that we have to remove
Kill the ARCHITECT! akin to Kill the BRICK!
When there are less of us there will be a higher demand for those
who are still around.
meta you are an inspiration!
i always read lead designer as lead (pencil).
don't most of us already negotiate with firms? the problem is once we've got the job locked down, we don't revisit for a proper raise, letting the firm dictate the terms of pay increases. you've got to step up to the meeting, show what you've done/present findings evidence and make your case. i've never gotten a pay raise of less than 10%.
well, with nothing in place right now, you would first have to negotiate with the firms, change the firm's mind that they should invest in their employees, that they are valuble assets, and the firms in turn would deal with clients and drive up the fees, but nothing will change until we get the firms on our side, and for that to happen, we would all have to believe that our service and skills are worth it, but even within our own industry we don't see ourselves as worth the hassle, so there you have it, we'll continue to be the bottom feeder of the building industry, but hell, we'll have our passion to put our kids thru college!
hey, i'm just being provocative here, and seeing if there's something to be done to garner some more respect within our own circles. it would seem we are all content to hang our hats on the status quo. i was too until i had a family to support. sucking or not sucking is not the issue. i started out at $20,000 13 years ago with a bachelor and masters degree, now i'm at $80,000 a year, that seems to be reasonable growth, but not really if you compare to other professions.
thanks for the insight, guys! holz.box, you'll have to tell me how you manage a 10%+ raise every time!
i'm only a few years out, so 10% isn't that much and switching jobs has helped, but i'm pretty active in keeping things running in the firm (streamlining workflow, introduction of better programs/technques, implementation of white papers, etc) so i'm able to make a good case for myself. that and my s.o. is pretty business-savvy which has rubbed off a bit.
presumably at $80k/13yrs you'd know how these things work a little better, urbanite.
you would first have to negotiate with the firms
i'm picturing a union rep, a lawyer, and a firm's two employees negotiating with the harried, no-time, principal of a small office. hah!
if we began to qualify the terms of compensation more strictly/exactly in our 12-person office, we'd lose a lot of the 'perks' that come with NOT being so mercenary.
perhaps I read more into that comment than intended, but this is not a "belief system" - you actually have to deliver value that firms and clients are willing to pay more to receive. the productivity must be demonstrable.
the worst abuses arising from unions (think big-3 automakers) extorted huge pay and benefit increases without providing appropriate improvements in productivity. that's why japan's eating detroit's lunch.
we have staff who ask (demand) big raises, but their work doesn't support such expectations. we have other staff who hit it out of the park each and every day - we have no difficulty paying such staff very well because, quite frankly, it's in our interests to do so. which type of employee do you choose to be?
you should occaisonally show up to work in a suit and say you have to leave early for a "doctor's" appointment. and just by coincidence have your portfolio with you that day. and then go have a martini or catch a movie.
yeah -- and you employers should occassionally let it slip around the coffee machine that "hey, I heard that Dewey, Cheathan and Howe had a lay-off last week - you guys know any of the folks they put on the street?"
I will join any Union headed by a Hoffa....as long as Chuck Norris is
the, "Enforcer"
employers do do that.
employees do do that, too !
it's a "cat and mouse" world
can you imagine an architect with this sticker on the bumper of his european car
this image alone should end the debate about an architect's union
Labor Day 2018 bump.