A friend of mine just bought this "fusion orange" colored Hummer H2. I know it's stupid, but I'm tempted... I mean, the color is great.
Steven Ward
Oct 5, 06 12:56 pm
just think you're overstating the meaning of irrelevant. just because something is not legislated or enforceable doesn't make it irrelevant. lying isn't illegal, in most cases, but trying not to be on the wrong end of lying is still relevant to most people.
i think the law having anything to do with this discussion is a red herring.
cf
Oct 5, 06 2:03 pm
Legislation was brought up so it became part of this conversation and I made comment. It is not a red herring.
Lying is not the same as purchasing a large vehicle that consumes fuel at 9 miles per gallon.
Social pressure had better not be placed on the individual- that is social fascism.
Please tell me, are we talking about: That vehicles "sucks" because it is to large and consuming in my opinion.
4arch
Oct 5, 06 2:22 pm
I'd like to get some hard facts here. It would be nice to see how the ecological footprint of the average Hummer driver compared to that of the average Prius driver. I think the answer might be surprising.
As for hybrids, I'm more scared of their potential long-term impact on the automotive industry than I am of the Hummer's. While I don't fault anyone personally for choosing a hybrid, I feel that they are being pushed into the market mainly as a means to prop up oil's continued dominantion and economically viability. I don't see how hybrids, contrary to what some auto makers have claimed, are a first step toward moving away from oil. If anything, they are diverting resources and interest away from real alternative fuel solutions.
cf
Oct 5, 06 2:29 pm
Hybrids- what are the short and long term ecological footprints- manufacturing/maintenance/disposal.
The quicker we get to a condition of petrolium desperation, the sooner we can be rid of it. That is the only Force that will be accepted by all.
liberty bell
Oct 5, 06 2:54 pm
I'm less interested in the legistlative portion of this argument (though I agree the tax-break on them should be repealed) than I am in the sterotyping argument. Stereotypes exist because people fulfill them. That doesn't mean all people should be judged according to a perceived stereotype, because that would be wrong and racist/sexist/etc-ist.
Go ahead and stereotype me as a woman having a mid-life crisis because I drive a Miata, that's not completely untrue. (I will point out that my Miata is 14 years old, so I feel comfortable that I'm using resources that still have value/material energy rather than throw them away. A new Hummer is all new resources, and it's a LOT of them.) But moreso, a Hummer so stereotypically represents 1. someone who is unconcerned with efficient use of natural resources, 2. someone who has a lack of real control in their daily lives and seeks to make up for that lack through a car, 3. someone who is unconcerned about the safety of others with whom they interract (yes that last one could also be applied to me as I downshift around a corner much faster than I should be going - which I try to only do occassionally but for god's sake a Miata is just so fun it's hard to resist sometimes! OK fine I'm an asshole too).
I do think it's reasonable to be offended by Hummers, just as I was always offended by Lexus' ad campaign about 6 years ago calling their cars "meaner" than everyone else's cars. That's trading on inherent negatives of human nature that I don't think we should be encouraging. I don't want to be thought-police about it, but that is how I feel. And I agree that I look at Hummers and see "dupes" just as Steven said above. Which makes me sad that so many people are so unfulfilled.
lb:
Why are so concerned about what other people drive, whether they think their unit is too small, compensating, etc? Why? Why?
If I want to wear my lime green liesure suit 7 days a week without washing, that is my concern not yours. If I think my unit is too small and I drive an XKE to compensate, that is not your concern. My thoughts are none of your concern so do not read my mind.
So why do men with small units who you will never have sex with bother you?
tyrrhena
Oct 5, 06 3:39 pm
what i'm going to ask probably has little to do with the main tenant of this discussion here, but hasn't freudian sex-centered psychoanalysis approach been widely doubted, if not largely rejected by the psychoanalysis research community? correct me if i'm wrong...
kyll
Oct 5, 06 3:40 pm
rim- well, what i meant was that most vehicles are designed now to buckle in the front upon impact with the engine immediately dropping to the lower cabin of the engine compartment, allowing the object that was hit (usually another auto) to withstand the impact with less damage.
hummers dont do that. theyre braced throughout the vehicle and theyre too high. a lot of suv's do though - humvees arent alone.
i'm not going to list cars here. thats what edmunds and autoweb is for. research is free.
the oil industry- petroleum. gasoline. texas and iraq. pipelines on the border of war ravaged countries. you know where thats going, and theres been about 12 threads on that issue. (maybe even more) so i wont go into it, but thats what i meant with that.
in terms of legislation and politics being involved in corraling some of the economic impact of this vehicle, it'd be a non-issue. they'd simply look at the worse case scenario- you're speculating on a worse vs. "what if" scenario. (a hummer with 5 people @ 10mpg vs a miata with one @ 30mpg) they wont look at it that way.
the most diplomatic way is to assume worst case scenario on all levels. that is:
1 person. lives alone, works 60 miles away. choice A-hummer. choice B-miata
its an issue of personal choice versus personal obligation. some have more obligations to other things- like their image. thats fine. some have it towards believing they could improve the environment. thats also just as fine. but to me- they both seem fine - one fickle, the other noble. (if not foolish depending on how theyre "saving" the earth).
strlt_typ
Oct 5, 06 4:22 pm
cf
Oct 5, 06 4:37 pm
I think the Hummer has a body and a ladder frame. They are connected by bolts with spacers. The front of the ladder frame which is hydraformed should have "crinkles" between the fire wall and the front bumper that forces the frame to bend in those locations first upon frontal impact. 2007 model trucks should have lower bumpers.
Late model Chevy v-8 engines are very fuel efficient compared to Ford and Dodge. Diesel engines are very fuel efficient in work and highway conditions. Low sulfer diesel is already at the pumps producing far less particulates.
kyll
Oct 5, 06 5:26 pm
ok.
funny - as i read that post, cf, i stood up and outside of my window- there she was in all her black glory....
uptown manhattan. head'd no doubt to central park to traverse the manhattan mountains..
(sorry. just had to)
garpike
Oct 5, 06 5:27 pm
Here's a riddle:
What's the difference between a Hummer H2 and a porcupine?
broccolijet
Oct 5, 06 6:01 pm
cf - i know you pointed your comment at liberty bell, but i'm compelled to give you my thoughts:
your lime green leisure suit, no matter how dapper, poses no physical threat to anyone but you. your lack of hygiene poses no physical threat to anyone beyond affecting their proximity to you.
based on the positions stated by others above, a hummer (or similar gas-guzzling, mini cooper crunching behemoth) is potentially deadly to varying degrees.
in my opinion, the real debate here is about selfishness. a person who has no functional need to drive a car like a hummer (regardless of the psychoanalysis behind their decision) obviously puts their own wants and desires well above the concerns of their fellow neighbor.
this selfishness is reflected pretty much everywhere in our (american) society. "as long as i'm being myself", "the only person i need to answer to is myself", "i do it because it makes me happy". these statements have become accepted as part of our collective consciousness and has morphed into a lonely, solipsistic existence.
sorry about the soapbox, i guess i just feel that if we all looked a little beyond ourselves when making decisions (like what car to drive) we might collectively be a bit better off.
[disclaimer: this coming from a guy who drives a dodge ram 1500 to haul my band's equipment]
garpike
Oct 5, 06 6:06 pm
broccoli, at least you are hauling equipment!
broccolijet
Oct 5, 06 6:10 pm
true. we also slept in the back of the damn thing when we toured last fall. very cozy, but i woke up surprised to find that my drummer wasn't my wife.
"those aren't pillows!!!"
kyll
Oct 5, 06 6:21 pm
haha.
word broccoli. word.
big word with us archies "function"
garpike
Oct 5, 06 6:26 pm
Yeah. And loading up on cologne and driving around looking for "honeys" is not considered function.
vado retro
Oct 5, 06 6:34 pm
personal choice is why everything is so fucked up.
garpike
Oct 5, 06 6:37 pm
Ha ha.
liberty bell
Oct 5, 06 7:16 pm
cf I actually do have a response but it will take some time to write up and right now it's dinner hour til bedtime. Later. Nice pic, kyll!
vado retro
Oct 5, 06 7:21 pm
you have misintrepreted the use of the word "function" return to go...
liberty bell
Oct 6, 06 7:10 am
cf, I just won't have time today to write up the long response I intended and I want to at least get something out: You completely misunderstand what I mean by "compensation" The point being: size does not matter, and the hummer plays on the fears of those (mostly men) who think that it does. As a society I think this emphasis on a brute force version of "manliness" is bullshit and unfair and counterproductive, when we should be talking baout what the true traits of a "real man" are, i.e. emphasizing fair play over winning at all costs, accepting full responsibility for one's actions, not being afraid of hard work to fulfill those responsibilities, and not defining success as pointedly causing someone else's failure. I love men and think the advertising world is treating men like crap these days, the hummer being one example taken to laughable but disgusting extremes.
Steven Ward
Oct 6, 06 7:41 am
yay lb! you don't need a long response. b/w you and broccolijet, you've nailed my thinking about this.
i'll wave to the hummer dealership on my way to work for ya.
207moak
Oct 6, 06 8:29 am
Despite all the psychoanalysis and environmental evaluation it still looks like a dumpster with wheels.
The all new H40cy
kyll
Oct 6, 06 11:48 am
#1 - i think the word "bullshit" used only by lib bell is hot. for real.
#2 - i'm glad she went to the trouble of putting down the realness that i didnt want to have to (or quite had the capacity to) tell uhm... rim j.
cf
Oct 6, 06 1:44 pm
OK, here is the scenario (play along):
Alright you idiots, I'm about to purchase 3 Hummers, Hummer 1 at that. Why, because you don't want me to have them because you think everyone who drives a big honken' vehicle is contributing significantly more to the destruction of the earth than your punk Toyota Crappollas. If I want to idle my 3 Hummers 24 hours a day that is my business. My selfishness is none of your business unless you can provide proof that I violated a written law. So talk all you want about the size of my unit, my insecurity, low self esteem, or what ever pop psycho babble thAt is in vogue, YOU AIN'T GOT SH!T.
Chili Davis
Oct 6, 06 1:52 pm
My next set of wheels...
Rim Joist
Oct 6, 06 1:58 pm
Well I will admit this I'm a fairly simple man and I had no idea that the now rather obvious and actual underlying point of this long rambling thread was that those Hummers make some of the men here feel just really inadequate or something for driving their little hybrids and economy cars and that's really just not fair and so to help them out it's a pretty nice thing that apparently LB is taking the time to counsel them through it which is probably why my pointed but in that case then off-point questions didn't get answered by you nice people who never did just come right out and call me an A-hole even thought that's what you think of me come on admit it so never mind then think I'll grab some of my jackass friends and go get some lunch in my Land Rover which is a vehicle that none of you will like but has never caused me any worry about the size of my penis.
cf
Oct 6, 06 2:04 pm
That guy does not care what you think. Though he is violating bumper and headlight height laws in many states.
sameolddoctor
Oct 6, 06 3:00 pm
rim joist, how bout using some punctuation (by which i mean commas), its very difficult to read what youve written
lletdownl
Oct 6, 06 3:51 pm
I dont understand why it became right and noble to not care what other people think or feel about our decisions
cf
Oct 6, 06 4:34 pm
For all those Fancy Graphyx Lovers who feel guilty about Hummer ownership, I submit to you Jon Bundrant and his VEHICLE:
One thing to note from the news. GM is going to idle the hummer plant for a few weeks due to slow sales.
I agree that a Hummer is personal choice in our free market. That I'll take over us all being homogonized into driving the gov't "approved" transportation device.
I'm also very skeptical of HYBRID vehicles, especially Toyota and the Prius. First of all, Toyota is NOT an ethical clean company. They've duped the public with the introduction of the Prius to consistently make their top selling cars/suv's larger and less fuel efficient. Sequoia? Tundra? Camry? Those vehicles aren't getting making less of an environmental footprint than the Toyota models of 10-20 years ago. That company has less credibility with me than Ford.
Someone mentioned that the Hummer was designed for a specific use. Yes/No. The H1 is a millitary vehicle. The H2 is a Chevy Suburban made to look machoistic. Stupid in my mind but obviously there's a demand. Neither a H2 or Suburban is an extreme off-road vehicle nor is it the best people mover or towing vehicle. It's a vehicle that tries to be everything and ends up being "ok" but not good for really anything. But since most people don't have 12 cars it fits. Then again, most Hummer drivers probably use them to commute which on a flashy GM ad would pretend to show as a primary use.
So, go ahead and drive a Hummer, or a Prius, or whatever. It's not my decision to pick what other people drive. I just think the cars on both ends of the spectrum are stupid. The Hummer driver wants to be seen just like the Prius driver. One is self riteous about the planet and the other is self riteous about his/her personal safety, etc. Not really all that different if you think about it. Meanwhile I'll stick with my mid-sized Honda <- the highest MPG car company in the world.
cf
Oct 6, 06 5:21 pm
All Hummers are designed to have very good approach, departure, and breakover angles. This is important for clearing objects such as rocks in off road conditions. Also the wheel wells and openings are larger to allow the use of larger diameter tires which aids in breakover angle, keeping the center of gravity low compared to a suspension lift that may be required on other vehicles, and rolling over offroad objects. Of course the H1 has the portal gears which allow the differential to be placed higher by the dimension of the radius of the main portal gear- ground clearance without sacrificing center of gravity is the name of the game. Second is axle/wheel articulation.
So these vehicles where designed for a specific function and to be able to drive the country club.
Why don't we bring in the Fairairies, Lambourgoonies, Mazdaratties, Porches, Jagoooowars into the discussion. What about those stinky semitrucks/retikulated lories that supply Whole Food. I'll bet that sours your soy milk.
broccolijet
Oct 6, 06 5:46 pm
this discussion is, unfortunately, going the only way it could go...and that's to get increasingly fragmented and polarized by hyperbole and influence. the argument of a hummer's value obviously isn't a closed system and any discussion that gets into the nitty gritty of people's value judgements will inherently go south quickly.
suffice to say there is no easy answer. we all have to live with and try to rectify our own hypocrisies.
i personally find these to be exciting times. as a society, we're at an interesting crossroads of trying to balance a need to express our individuality with a collective responsiblity to look out for each other and our future. at the risk of creating a punchline to a stale clinton joke...our problems are much bigger than one hummer.
treekiller
Oct 6, 06 6:44 pm
cf-
you must be a republican... just remember that half the country doesn't think that guns belong in cities, gays can get married, god is dead, and that spotted owls are more important then making money.
Oh, take you tax cuts for the rich and help the little people instead of reaming them with your stupid war.
Is this posting hyperbolic enough?
liberty bell
Oct 6, 06 8:31 pm
I dont understand why it became right and noble to not care what other people think or feel about our decision
lletdownl, that is an excellent question. Something changed between Kennedy saying "Ask not what your country can do for you" and Reagan saying "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"
Rim Joist, though it seems I rarely agree with what you say, and even less rarely agree with how you say it, you do make me think, and that is the point here after all.
And the absolute last thing I will say on this topic is this: 207moak, the H40cy is hilarious.
the cellardoor whore
Oct 7, 06 11:07 am
disproportionate polluting monster catering for persons with bullets wedged in their skulls and penises for measuring sticks.
your friend should be ashamed. run him over with a bike.
"I'll let you lick the lollypop
"
Katze
Oct 7, 06 1:14 pm
Yes, if you need a 4 wheel drive to trail to your favorite mountain lake, or to pull a 5 ton trailer somewhere, I see it's necessity – but come on, how many times is that necessary? Hell, I get a kick out of most people that buy SUV's and the such – most folks never take them off the road.
What cracks me up is that I've seen folks use a Hummer as a company vehicle. One in particular, (can't recall the name of the company), they use it as a traveling coffee house. You call them up and they show up at your employers door ready to sell coffee out of the back of the truck to all of your employees.
I asked them why they selected a Hummer for their company business and they said that they always wanted a Hummer, and with the tax breaks in place, they could not resist starting a business so that they could buy one. Geeze. But what is aggravating is the business is really a cover-up for the write-off. They don't do well when it comes to the bottom line (they told me so - they visit a couple of businesses everyday and are probably lucky to take in 50 bucks a day, then subtract product & material costs and gas and you are left with a mediocre profit, maybe even a loss (great, another tax write-off for the business owner).
Now why in today's age with the gas prices where they are at would we facilitate the use of this vehicle for such nonsense? Let's call up cartalk and ask them their advice:) tyrrhena, if you want an orange car, look for something that more appropriately fits your needs and paint it fusion orange. Please don't let the color of the Hummer affect/impact your buying decision.
now we're getting somewhere! that's pretty cool, STONES. gm's been working on the fuel cell stuff longer than most and i've heard all the issues they face (infrastructure, refining, etc) but still find it fascinating. too bad 1/2 the payload area is taken up with a tank in the model you linked, but they'll work that out i s'pose.
I own (2) H1s, (2) assault rifles, a McMansion that could house 3 families, a 400 acre ranch with extra shotguns and rifles for my runnen' buddies (I only use the ranch to shoot dove and deer that I feed all year long and then shoot them from the ranch house porch), and soon will buy a Porsche 911. Why? That is my business and not yours.
Do I care about gay activity. No. But don't make me part of that process.
So if someone wants to but a hummer, he/she will.
Or maybe they should go to the Archinect Department of Vehicular Purchasing Standards for the official form and approval with the standard 2 year waiting (your choice of color as long as it is medium grey).
Steven Ward
Oct 9, 06 11:01 am
truth, cf. your right and privilege, as it is ours to berate you for it.
just because you don't want to hear it, the conversation is still relevant. if assault weapon bans, cigarette bans, mileage/emissions standards, etc become law, some of your hypothetical character's privileges might be affected and that person would see the relevance of the discussion.
good that you think it's at least worth discussing now so that your voice is heard.
saw a real hummer at a light this morning. was admiring its obvious utility compared to the 2s and 3s. this one was, in fact, a working truck and made some sense. was shaken out of my appreciation when he floored it to make a left turn across my path when the light changed.
Chili Davis
Oct 9, 06 11:13 am
cf
Oct 9, 06 11:18 am
Don't put words in my mouth Steven Ward. I said nothing against your "beratement". You can berate all day long. At the end of the day your club can do nothing outside of the law to stop me from buying 10 more hummers and let them idle at 3000 rpm all day.
I love the many Prius that drive 50 mph when everyone else is driving the 65 or the posted 70. Law of physics from my Physics 101 class- "accident likely".
This process is very similar to an awful Madonna concert.
Steven Ward
Oct 9, 06 11:31 am
keep your gun, chili. i hope it continues not to kill people, in your hands or anyone else's.
some make political hay over that kennedy event from almost 40 yrs ago - including the tacky bumper sticker attempt at making it funny. this was a tragedy primarily for two families, but it's certainly not as nefarious as it's made out to be.
1969:
"Kennedy pleads guilty over car crash
"Senator Edward Kennedy has pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of a crime and has been sentenced to a two-month suspended jail sentence. The verdict follows a tragic car accident on the island of Chappaquiddick, east of Martha's Vineyard, a week ago in which 29-year-old Mary Jo Kopechne was drowned. Ms Kopechne was a former secretary to Senator Kennedy's late brother Robert. Senator Kennedy was driving back to Edgartown, the main town on Martha's Vineyard, from a party on Chappaquiddick when his car careered off a narrow bridge and into a creek. He managed to escape from the vehicle but Mary Jo was killed. He did not report the incident to Martha's Vineyard police until the next morning, some eight hours after the accident. Police found her body in the back seat of the overturned car.
"TV confession
"This evening, the Massachussetts Democrat senator made a speech on national television defending his actions on the night of 19 July. He denied any improper relationship with Mary Jo and said he was not driving under the influence of alcohol. He said he was in a state of shock when he emerged from the creek and confused by "a jumble of emotions". He added that he made several attempts to find Mary Jo by diving down into the water. He gave up and said he remembers little of how he got back to his hotel in Edgartown except that he swam the narrow channel because there were no night ferries and nearly drowned in the process. He acknowledged that he must now decide whether or not to resign as senator.
"Mary Jo's bereaved mother said she hoped he would not resign. "I am satisfied with his statement and hope he decides to stay in the Senate," she said from her home in New Jersey."
Steven Ward
Oct 9, 06 11:34 am
who's talkin' clubs? i speak for myself.
...and last i heard it was a not a posted speed but a 'speed limit'. not that i'd group myself in the slow traffic category.
out. have the last word, please.
cf
Oct 9, 06 11:54 am
If I wanted the last word, Steven Ward, I would use a different technique.
Let's try the other end.
No person should drive a car.
No eating cows, their meat causes cancer and they also cause polution when they fart.
No eating meat. the cancer rate is driving up my insurance rates. Being a veggie I will berate you as long as I please.
Clothes will be made out of natural material, no synthetics.
All extra marital sex will take place at the Department of Standardization after complete physicals and under strict supervision- enough of the AIDS, herpes, crabs, syph/gono, it's against humanity.
No guns, knives, hatchets- people are in mass killing in Africa.
Save the whales.
No more governments, do you think you could imagine that.
My head is spinning- words such as groovy, far out man, give peace a chance are coming alive... hey where am I, what, what does that say on that sign-
"Yazgoods farm and we are a club a half a million strong"
Hey everyone, we're BACK!
Will you be too embarrased to be seen in it?
A friend of mine just bought this "fusion orange" colored Hummer H2. I know it's stupid, but I'm tempted... I mean, the color is great.
just think you're overstating the meaning of irrelevant. just because something is not legislated or enforceable doesn't make it irrelevant. lying isn't illegal, in most cases, but trying not to be on the wrong end of lying is still relevant to most people.
i think the law having anything to do with this discussion is a red herring.
Legislation was brought up so it became part of this conversation and I made comment. It is not a red herring.
Lying is not the same as purchasing a large vehicle that consumes fuel at 9 miles per gallon.
Social pressure had better not be placed on the individual- that is social fascism.
Please tell me, are we talking about: That vehicles "sucks" because it is to large and consuming in my opinion.
I'd like to get some hard facts here. It would be nice to see how the ecological footprint of the average Hummer driver compared to that of the average Prius driver. I think the answer might be surprising.
As for hybrids, I'm more scared of their potential long-term impact on the automotive industry than I am of the Hummer's. While I don't fault anyone personally for choosing a hybrid, I feel that they are being pushed into the market mainly as a means to prop up oil's continued dominantion and economically viability. I don't see how hybrids, contrary to what some auto makers have claimed, are a first step toward moving away from oil. If anything, they are diverting resources and interest away from real alternative fuel solutions.
Hybrids- what are the short and long term ecological footprints- manufacturing/maintenance/disposal.
The quicker we get to a condition of petrolium desperation, the sooner we can be rid of it. That is the only Force that will be accepted by all.
I'm less interested in the legistlative portion of this argument (though I agree the tax-break on them should be repealed) than I am in the sterotyping argument. Stereotypes exist because people fulfill them. That doesn't mean all people should be judged according to a perceived stereotype, because that would be wrong and racist/sexist/etc-ist.
Go ahead and stereotype me as a woman having a mid-life crisis because I drive a Miata, that's not completely untrue. (I will point out that my Miata is 14 years old, so I feel comfortable that I'm using resources that still have value/material energy rather than throw them away. A new Hummer is all new resources, and it's a LOT of them.) But moreso, a Hummer so stereotypically represents 1. someone who is unconcerned with efficient use of natural resources, 2. someone who has a lack of real control in their daily lives and seeks to make up for that lack through a car, 3. someone who is unconcerned about the safety of others with whom they interract (yes that last one could also be applied to me as I downshift around a corner much faster than I should be going - which I try to only do occassionally but for god's sake a Miata is just so fun it's hard to resist sometimes! OK fine I'm an asshole too).
I do think it's reasonable to be offended by Hummers, just as I was always offended by Lexus' ad campaign about 6 years ago calling their cars "meaner" than everyone else's cars. That's trading on inherent negatives of human nature that I don't think we should be encouraging. I don't want to be thought-police about it, but that is how I feel. And I agree that I look at Hummers and see "dupes" just as Steven said above. Which makes me sad that so many people are so unfulfilled.
Also, Rim Joist: I'm sorry, I just can't "talk" with you anymore without an image of you (whoever that might be) standing there with your sweater tucked into your pants and some of it pulled out through your fly. I about peed my pants laughing when I read that today!
lb:
Why are so concerned about what other people drive, whether they think their unit is too small, compensating, etc? Why? Why?
If I want to wear my lime green liesure suit 7 days a week without washing, that is my concern not yours. If I think my unit is too small and I drive an XKE to compensate, that is not your concern. My thoughts are none of your concern so do not read my mind.
So why do men with small units who you will never have sex with bother you?
what i'm going to ask probably has little to do with the main tenant of this discussion here, but hasn't freudian sex-centered psychoanalysis approach been widely doubted, if not largely rejected by the psychoanalysis research community? correct me if i'm wrong...
rim- well, what i meant was that most vehicles are designed now to buckle in the front upon impact with the engine immediately dropping to the lower cabin of the engine compartment, allowing the object that was hit (usually another auto) to withstand the impact with less damage.
hummers dont do that. theyre braced throughout the vehicle and theyre too high. a lot of suv's do though - humvees arent alone.
i'm not going to list cars here. thats what edmunds and autoweb is for. research is free.
the oil industry- petroleum. gasoline. texas and iraq. pipelines on the border of war ravaged countries. you know where thats going, and theres been about 12 threads on that issue. (maybe even more) so i wont go into it, but thats what i meant with that.
in terms of legislation and politics being involved in corraling some of the economic impact of this vehicle, it'd be a non-issue. they'd simply look at the worse case scenario- you're speculating on a worse vs. "what if" scenario. (a hummer with 5 people @ 10mpg vs a miata with one @ 30mpg) they wont look at it that way.
the most diplomatic way is to assume worst case scenario on all levels. that is:
1 person. lives alone, works 60 miles away. choice A-hummer. choice B-miata
its an issue of personal choice versus personal obligation. some have more obligations to other things- like their image. thats fine. some have it towards believing they could improve the environment. thats also just as fine. but to me- they both seem fine - one fickle, the other noble. (if not foolish depending on how theyre "saving" the earth).
I think the Hummer has a body and a ladder frame. They are connected by bolts with spacers. The front of the ladder frame which is hydraformed should have "crinkles" between the fire wall and the front bumper that forces the frame to bend in those locations first upon frontal impact. 2007 model trucks should have lower bumpers.
Late model Chevy v-8 engines are very fuel efficient compared to Ford and Dodge. Diesel engines are very fuel efficient in work and highway conditions. Low sulfer diesel is already at the pumps producing far less particulates.
ok.
funny - as i read that post, cf, i stood up and outside of my window- there she was in all her black glory....
uptown manhattan. head'd no doubt to central park to traverse the manhattan mountains..
(sorry. just had to)
Here's a riddle:
What's the difference between a Hummer H2 and a porcupine?
cf - i know you pointed your comment at liberty bell, but i'm compelled to give you my thoughts:
your lime green leisure suit, no matter how dapper, poses no physical threat to anyone but you. your lack of hygiene poses no physical threat to anyone beyond affecting their proximity to you.
based on the positions stated by others above, a hummer (or similar gas-guzzling, mini cooper crunching behemoth) is potentially deadly to varying degrees.
in my opinion, the real debate here is about selfishness. a person who has no functional need to drive a car like a hummer (regardless of the psychoanalysis behind their decision) obviously puts their own wants and desires well above the concerns of their fellow neighbor.
this selfishness is reflected pretty much everywhere in our (american) society. "as long as i'm being myself", "the only person i need to answer to is myself", "i do it because it makes me happy". these statements have become accepted as part of our collective consciousness and has morphed into a lonely, solipsistic existence.
sorry about the soapbox, i guess i just feel that if we all looked a little beyond ourselves when making decisions (like what car to drive) we might collectively be a bit better off.
[disclaimer: this coming from a guy who drives a dodge ram 1500 to haul my band's equipment]
broccoli, at least you are hauling equipment!
true. we also slept in the back of the damn thing when we toured last fall. very cozy, but i woke up surprised to find that my drummer wasn't my wife.
"those aren't pillows!!!"
haha.
word broccoli. word.
big word with us archies "function"
Yeah. And loading up on cologne and driving around looking for "honeys" is not considered function.
personal choice is why everything is so fucked up.
Ha ha.
cf I actually do have a response but it will take some time to write up and right now it's dinner hour til bedtime. Later. Nice pic, kyll!
you have misintrepreted the use of the word "function" return to go...
cf, I just won't have time today to write up the long response I intended and I want to at least get something out: You completely misunderstand what I mean by "compensation" The point being: size does not matter, and the hummer plays on the fears of those (mostly men) who think that it does. As a society I think this emphasis on a brute force version of "manliness" is bullshit and unfair and counterproductive, when we should be talking baout what the true traits of a "real man" are, i.e. emphasizing fair play over winning at all costs, accepting full responsibility for one's actions, not being afraid of hard work to fulfill those responsibilities, and not defining success as pointedly causing someone else's failure. I love men and think the advertising world is treating men like crap these days, the hummer being one example taken to laughable but disgusting extremes.
yay lb! you don't need a long response. b/w you and broccolijet, you've nailed my thinking about this.
i'll wave to the hummer dealership on my way to work for ya.
Despite all the psychoanalysis and environmental evaluation it still looks like a dumpster with wheels.
The all new H40cy
#1 - i think the word "bullshit" used only by lib bell is hot. for real.
#2 - i'm glad she went to the trouble of putting down the realness that i didnt want to have to (or quite had the capacity to) tell uhm... rim j.
OK, here is the scenario (play along):
Alright you idiots, I'm about to purchase 3 Hummers, Hummer 1 at that. Why, because you don't want me to have them because you think everyone who drives a big honken' vehicle is contributing significantly more to the destruction of the earth than your punk Toyota Crappollas. If I want to idle my 3 Hummers 24 hours a day that is my business. My selfishness is none of your business unless you can provide proof that I violated a written law. So talk all you want about the size of my unit, my insecurity, low self esteem, or what ever pop psycho babble thAt is in vogue, YOU AIN'T GOT SH!T.
My next set of wheels...
Well I will admit this I'm a fairly simple man and I had no idea that the now rather obvious and actual underlying point of this long rambling thread was that those Hummers make some of the men here feel just really inadequate or something for driving their little hybrids and economy cars and that's really just not fair and so to help them out it's a pretty nice thing that apparently LB is taking the time to counsel them through it which is probably why my pointed but in that case then off-point questions didn't get answered by you nice people who never did just come right out and call me an A-hole even thought that's what you think of me come on admit it so never mind then think I'll grab some of my jackass friends and go get some lunch in my Land Rover which is a vehicle that none of you will like but has never caused me any worry about the size of my penis.
That guy does not care what you think. Though he is violating bumper and headlight height laws in many states.
rim joist, how bout using some punctuation (by which i mean commas), its very difficult to read what youve written
I dont understand why it became right and noble to not care what other people think or feel about our decisions
For all those Fancy Graphyx Lovers who feel guilty about Hummer ownership, I submit to you Jon Bundrant and his VEHICLE:
and this link:
http://rock.off-road.com/rock/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=210873
One thing to note from the news. GM is going to idle the hummer plant for a few weeks due to slow sales.
I agree that a Hummer is personal choice in our free market. That I'll take over us all being homogonized into driving the gov't "approved" transportation device.
I'm also very skeptical of HYBRID vehicles, especially Toyota and the Prius. First of all, Toyota is NOT an ethical clean company. They've duped the public with the introduction of the Prius to consistently make their top selling cars/suv's larger and less fuel efficient. Sequoia? Tundra? Camry? Those vehicles aren't getting making less of an environmental footprint than the Toyota models of 10-20 years ago. That company has less credibility with me than Ford.
Someone mentioned that the Hummer was designed for a specific use. Yes/No. The H1 is a millitary vehicle. The H2 is a Chevy Suburban made to look machoistic. Stupid in my mind but obviously there's a demand. Neither a H2 or Suburban is an extreme off-road vehicle nor is it the best people mover or towing vehicle. It's a vehicle that tries to be everything and ends up being "ok" but not good for really anything. But since most people don't have 12 cars it fits. Then again, most Hummer drivers probably use them to commute which on a flashy GM ad would pretend to show as a primary use.
So, go ahead and drive a Hummer, or a Prius, or whatever. It's not my decision to pick what other people drive. I just think the cars on both ends of the spectrum are stupid. The Hummer driver wants to be seen just like the Prius driver. One is self riteous about the planet and the other is self riteous about his/her personal safety, etc. Not really all that different if you think about it. Meanwhile I'll stick with my mid-sized Honda <- the highest MPG car company in the world.
All Hummers are designed to have very good approach, departure, and breakover angles. This is important for clearing objects such as rocks in off road conditions. Also the wheel wells and openings are larger to allow the use of larger diameter tires which aids in breakover angle, keeping the center of gravity low compared to a suspension lift that may be required on other vehicles, and rolling over offroad objects. Of course the H1 has the portal gears which allow the differential to be placed higher by the dimension of the radius of the main portal gear- ground clearance without sacrificing center of gravity is the name of the game. Second is axle/wheel articulation.
So these vehicles where designed for a specific function and to be able to drive the country club.
Why don't we bring in the Fairairies, Lambourgoonies, Mazdaratties, Porches, Jagoooowars into the discussion. What about those stinky semitrucks/retikulated lories that supply Whole Food. I'll bet that sours your soy milk.
this discussion is, unfortunately, going the only way it could go...and that's to get increasingly fragmented and polarized by hyperbole and influence. the argument of a hummer's value obviously isn't a closed system and any discussion that gets into the nitty gritty of people's value judgements will inherently go south quickly.
suffice to say there is no easy answer. we all have to live with and try to rectify our own hypocrisies.
i personally find these to be exciting times. as a society, we're at an interesting crossroads of trying to balance a need to express our individuality with a collective responsiblity to look out for each other and our future. at the risk of creating a punchline to a stale clinton joke...our problems are much bigger than one hummer.
cf-
you must be a republican... just remember that half the country doesn't think that guns belong in cities, gays can get married, god is dead, and that spotted owls are more important then making money.
Oh, take you tax cuts for the rich and help the little people instead of reaming them with your stupid war.
Is this posting hyperbolic enough?
lletdownl, that is an excellent question. Something changed between Kennedy saying "Ask not what your country can do for you" and Reagan saying "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"
Rim Joist, though it seems I rarely agree with what you say, and even less rarely agree with how you say it, you do make me think, and that is the point here after all.
And the absolute last thing I will say on this topic is this: 207moak, the H40cy is hilarious.
disproportionate polluting monster catering for persons with bullets wedged in their skulls and penises for measuring sticks.
your friend should be ashamed. run him over with a bike.
"I'll let you lick the lollypop
"
Yes, if you need a 4 wheel drive to trail to your favorite mountain lake, or to pull a 5 ton trailer somewhere, I see it's necessity – but come on, how many times is that necessary? Hell, I get a kick out of most people that buy SUV's and the such – most folks never take them off the road.
What cracks me up is that I've seen folks use a Hummer as a company vehicle. One in particular, (can't recall the name of the company), they use it as a traveling coffee house. You call them up and they show up at your employers door ready to sell coffee out of the back of the truck to all of your employees.
I asked them why they selected a Hummer for their company business and they said that they always wanted a Hummer, and with the tax breaks in place, they could not resist starting a business so that they could buy one. Geeze. But what is aggravating is the business is really a cover-up for the write-off. They don't do well when it comes to the bottom line (they told me so - they visit a couple of businesses everyday and are probably lucky to take in 50 bucks a day, then subtract product & material costs and gas and you are left with a mediocre profit, maybe even a loss (great, another tax write-off for the business owner).
Now why in today's age with the gas prices where they are at would we facilitate the use of this vehicle for such nonsense? Let's call up cartalk and ask them their advice:) tyrrhena, if you want an orange car, look for something that more appropriately fits your needs and paint it fusion orange. Please don't let the color of the Hummer affect/impact your buying decision.
b/c arnold said so
now we're getting somewhere! that's pretty cool, STONES. gm's been working on the fuel cell stuff longer than most and i've heard all the issues they face (infrastructure, refining, etc) but still find it fascinating. too bad 1/2 the payload area is taken up with a tank in the model you linked, but they'll work that out i s'pose.
OK, play along:
I own (2) H1s, (2) assault rifles, a McMansion that could house 3 families, a 400 acre ranch with extra shotguns and rifles for my runnen' buddies (I only use the ranch to shoot dove and deer that I feed all year long and then shoot them from the ranch house porch), and soon will buy a Porsche 911. Why? That is my business and not yours.
Do I care about gay activity. No. But don't make me part of that process.
So if someone wants to but a hummer, he/she will.
Or maybe they should go to the Archinect Department of Vehicular Purchasing Standards for the official form and approval with the standard 2 year waiting (your choice of color as long as it is medium grey).
truth, cf. your right and privilege, as it is ours to berate you for it.
just because you don't want to hear it, the conversation is still relevant. if assault weapon bans, cigarette bans, mileage/emissions standards, etc become law, some of your hypothetical character's privileges might be affected and that person would see the relevance of the discussion.
good that you think it's at least worth discussing now so that your voice is heard.
saw a real hummer at a light this morning. was admiring its obvious utility compared to the 2s and 3s. this one was, in fact, a working truck and made some sense. was shaken out of my appreciation when he floored it to make a left turn across my path when the light changed.
Don't put words in my mouth Steven Ward. I said nothing against your "beratement". You can berate all day long. At the end of the day your club can do nothing outside of the law to stop me from buying 10 more hummers and let them idle at 3000 rpm all day.
I love the many Prius that drive 50 mph when everyone else is driving the 65 or the posted 70. Law of physics from my Physics 101 class- "accident likely".
This process is very similar to an awful Madonna concert.
keep your gun, chili. i hope it continues not to kill people, in your hands or anyone else's.
some make political hay over that kennedy event from almost 40 yrs ago - including the tacky bumper sticker attempt at making it funny. this was a tragedy primarily for two families, but it's certainly not as nefarious as it's made out to be.
1969:
"Kennedy pleads guilty over car crash
"Senator Edward Kennedy has pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of a crime and has been sentenced to a two-month suspended jail sentence. The verdict follows a tragic car accident on the island of Chappaquiddick, east of Martha's Vineyard, a week ago in which 29-year-old Mary Jo Kopechne was drowned. Ms Kopechne was a former secretary to Senator Kennedy's late brother Robert. Senator Kennedy was driving back to Edgartown, the main town on Martha's Vineyard, from a party on Chappaquiddick when his car careered off a narrow bridge and into a creek. He managed to escape from the vehicle but Mary Jo was killed. He did not report the incident to Martha's Vineyard police until the next morning, some eight hours after the accident. Police found her body in the back seat of the overturned car.
"TV confession
"This evening, the Massachussetts Democrat senator made a speech on national television defending his actions on the night of 19 July. He denied any improper relationship with Mary Jo and said he was not driving under the influence of alcohol. He said he was in a state of shock when he emerged from the creek and confused by "a jumble of emotions". He added that he made several attempts to find Mary Jo by diving down into the water. He gave up and said he remembers little of how he got back to his hotel in Edgartown except that he swam the narrow channel because there were no night ferries and nearly drowned in the process. He acknowledged that he must now decide whether or not to resign as senator.
"Mary Jo's bereaved mother said she hoped he would not resign. "I am satisfied with his statement and hope he decides to stay in the Senate," she said from her home in New Jersey."
who's talkin' clubs? i speak for myself.
...and last i heard it was a not a posted speed but a 'speed limit'. not that i'd group myself in the slow traffic category.
out. have the last word, please.
If I wanted the last word, Steven Ward, I would use a different technique.
Let's try the other end.
No person should drive a car.
No eating cows, their meat causes cancer and they also cause polution when they fart.
No eating meat. the cancer rate is driving up my insurance rates. Being a veggie I will berate you as long as I please.
Clothes will be made out of natural material, no synthetics.
All extra marital sex will take place at the Department of Standardization after complete physicals and under strict supervision- enough of the AIDS, herpes, crabs, syph/gono, it's against humanity.
No guns, knives, hatchets- people are in mass killing in Africa.
Save the whales.
No more governments, do you think you could imagine that.
My head is spinning- words such as groovy, far out man, give peace a chance are coming alive... hey where am I, what, what does that say on that sign-
"Yazgoods farm and we are a club a half a million strong"
Hey everyone, we're BACK!