As some of you know, from a previous posting, I am interested in the integration of more 'acceptable design concepts (Frank Lloyd Wright) with those of Vedic architecture (which might seem, in its restrictions, to be 'anti-design', but actually allows for interesting integration resolutions). One particular aspect of Vedic Architecture is the refernce to the floorplan as ' the blueprint of the cosmos' (the sun would be in the central brahmasthan, while the other rooms revolve around it liker planets). Beyond the incorporation of 'planetary' characteristics (color, temperature, orbital placement) I wonder what might be more complex (sophisticated?) integrations (is a deeper spatial expression necessary?)
Nevermore
Mar 16, 06 3:35 am
sandee..
It is alleged that Wright got the inspiration for fallingwater from a zen painting.
well for a start i can tell you that in terms of integration.. There's more to vedic arch than 2-D symbolism (like a floor plan mimicking the cosmos that u'r reffering to)
The word 'veda'in sanskrit translates to 'vision"..
yes your right that Vedic arch in essence is a representation of the workings of the cosmos ..but essentially the aryans of India tried to incorporate their 'vision' of the universe in their architecture.
but the main point that your looking for (I guess ) was that in their architecture,
1)The form and function of the structure
2) The workings of the cosmos ( they called it "Rita"--laws of the universe)
3) with the human mind.
so to give u an example...they would have created a integration between the planets revolving around the sun with the rooms in a dwelling revolving around the living room and metaphorised it with blood circulating around the human heart or more metaphysically....with the thoughts rotating around the soul/mind.
The integration was not only spatial but also metaphysical.
this is just a pittance .It's a vast complex science as u maybe aware.
tell u more later.
(I did my college thesis on ancient Vedic/ buddhist arch principles and metaphysics...feel free to ask anything)
Nevermore
Mar 17, 06 2:03 am
sandee,Thats the ancient grid layout symbol of the the vastupurusha
vastupurusha in sanskrit="the Architectural/Elemental man" or the
"the structural dwarf".
something like the vedic version of vitruvian man or the golden mean
( except that its almost 10,000 years old )
Its supposed to give the ideal locations of rooms in a dwelling.
The 'brahmasthan' which u reffered to is the square marked around the vastupurusha's navel in the pic.
the word written above the belly button in the pic is "brahma".
check out the symbolism ,It's the central location of the dwelling symbolised by the dwarf's stomach ( like a stomach is the source of all 'nourishment' to the rest of the body/ like the sun nourishing /being the centre of the cosmos )
will galloway
Mar 17, 06 2:56 am
is this system still common in india? like feng shui in asia...?
Nevermore
Mar 17, 06 3:35 am
jump,
yea it's kind of going thru a rediscovery in modern Indian Arch.
it's called Vastu Shastra in India.Many clients in India today insist that architects design according to the principles of vastu-shastra.
Feng shui and vastushastra both are very popular today.
Ofcourse there are also many 'quacks' (architects )who know barely anything/nothing of this vedic science and still make huge bucks.
(They are helped by the fact that this was an ancient esoteric science yet fairly unknown to the general populace today)
sharpie.
Mar 17, 06 4:21 am
still common?
its more dominant these days. infact, i`ve wanted to start a thread about such geomancy practices, its role and views from a professional point.
will galloway
Mar 17, 06 6:50 am
i am a skeptic, but it is interesting.
from talking to colleagues who practice in singapore and malaysia feng shui can be really incomprehensible and contradictory but is also very sensible beyond the mystic content. and so a good thing. at the very least a way to ensure natural light or ventilation in a building...when it works. but it doesn't always, depending on the master i suppose.
vastushastra is considered scientific? or more like religion?
Nevermore
Mar 17, 06 7:41 am
vastushastra is considered scientific? or more like religion?
Jump...very nice question.
If i may explain a lil bit elaborately, Vastushastra has its roots in the Vedas.
as I said earlier ,The word "veda"means "vision" in sanskrit...verily because it is a compendium of "visions" of reality.... that the Aryan sages "saw" during their reflections and meditations.
As compared to other religions--take any example... all of them can be traced to a single human founder/establisher
judaism-Prophet Moses,Christianity-Christ , Islam-Prophet Muhammed.
except for the vedas..No single human founder can be credited ( there were many sages ), ....If there is a single human founder there can be a chance of error of
perception of reality since no human being has a perfect /completely unadulterated semblance of reality.
( i.,e why things outside of us and within us are the way they are , and what they are and who we are...what makes thecosmos..what makes us)
for e.g --It's written in the Rigveda about cosmic particles that hit earth every second (which is confirmed by science )and a prayer is addressed to the cosmos asking for deliverance from any of such particles which may be harmful )
It's non-sectarian, secular grounded truths that are applicable to all.
so most of the esoteric vedic tenets of vastushastra are intrinsically connected with"science" cloaked in the garb of religion so that the common man follows them for his benefit.
Ill give u a couple of small examples.
1) Its considered "bad luck" in vastushastra tenets to have a kitchen wash sink next to your cooking area.
very simply ..if one did so this would mean eventual increase of fuel costs because of the constant proximity to water and water vapour.
Hence it's coated with the bad luck sugar coating so that everyone follows it.
so whatever deconstructive,post-modern etc house one may have..this fact remains the same everywhere.
2) its Considered 'evil' in vastushastra to have your bed /sleeping position withhead at north direction and legs pointed to the south.
simple logic for this is that the human body's electromagnetic field (if the head is at north direction )would oppose/repel the earth's natural magnetic field emanating from the north pole.
that leads to eventual bad circulation and disturbed sleep.
so likewise here too whatever deconstructive,post-modern etc house one may have..this fact remains the same everywhere. since we are all humans and the north pole is still at the north pole.
These are some of the tenets..I think they are brilliant and moreso considering the fact that they were formulated thousands of years ago when the world was supposed to be not advanced..how the hindu sages knew all these principles is still a mystery.
Im not so conversant with feng shui ...whatever i know of it ..it appears to be very similar to vastu shastra...although i would think it has it's roots in vastu shastra ( ina diff name/slightly tweaked way )imported to China from India in the ancient past along with buddhism.
Mar 17, 06 2:12 pm
nevermore, I'd like to understand better. When you say, "how the hindu sages knew all these principles is still a mystery" does this mean vastushastra is hinduism?
I too am interested in "geomancy practices, its role and views from a professional point." Interested in that there are some "geomancy practices" in architecture that I've been keeping my eye out for. For example-- www.quondam.com/38/3733.htm
I've also found the same circle/square juncture diagram within an early FLWright decorative ceiling grille design. So I'm just adding some examples that might fit into the discussion.
And here's some of my thoughts regarding the Indian continent. First, it's like Africa, almost like an African reenactment even, except smaller and the Himalayans to the north instead the Mediterranean. Yet, only Africa has the Great Pyramids. But there definitely is Sri Lanka instead of Madagascar. Smaller, yes, but perhaps a little more culturally developed over time? It looks at least close, and to complete the set, there's the Australian continent with its Tasmania.
[At least allow me some poetic geomancy license on that last paragraph.]
So, back to Wright, it might be interesting to look at Wright's work from just around 100 years ago, and then continue the 100-year-back-looking as the future years go by. Is geomancy there to be found? He certainly always had a flair for 2D and 3D (basic) geometry.
Quondam,Vastushastra ( trnsl:--Architecture is an aspect of vedic knowledge.What is known today as Hinduism is an derivation evolved over millenia of the original vedic faith
Abt cosmic principles/laws of nature, the sages knew facts 5-10,000 yrs back which are confirmed only in the 20 th century ,
few eg.s->Cosmic rays,The existence of the atom,sunspots affecting life on earth..the future emergence of viruses are all mentioned in the hindu scriptures.
How these and many many more facts could be known by them without the aid of modern science.that is a mystery.
and The Indian subcontinent, I would say is more closer to a microcosm of earth than africa..You can find all geographical and climatic zones here in one place.
Equatorial tropic to semi-arctic, desert,rainforest etc.
and all kinds of human races native here.(If thats what u mean)
will galloway
Mar 20, 06 2:13 am
thanks for that nevermore.
interesting. one point, mind, the magnetic pole is not the same as the north pole, and it migrates daily/yearly quite a bit. still more or less north-ish, but not exactly. does that matter?
but anyway....do you learn/study such things at archi-school or is it purely extracurricular?
Nevermore
Mar 20, 06 6:02 am
No..wasnt part of the regular curriculum at arch school.
I chose a related topic for my thesis. (Symbolism of Buddhist Philosophy in its Architecture) titled :Architecture of the Void.
All this happened to be part of the research for it.
Mar 21, 06 10:11 am
nevermore, what is the relationship between "original vedic faith" and "hindu scripture"?
I'm not trying to be a pain, but it seems you have used these phrases interchangably and I just what to be sure.
Is it the hindu scriptures that at 5-10,000 years old and is the original vedia faith then even older?
As some of you know, from a previous posting, I am interested in the integration of more 'acceptable design concepts (Frank Lloyd Wright) with those of Vedic architecture (which might seem, in its restrictions, to be 'anti-design', but actually allows for interesting integration resolutions). One particular aspect of Vedic Architecture is the refernce to the floorplan as ' the blueprint of the cosmos' (the sun would be in the central brahmasthan, while the other rooms revolve around it liker planets). Beyond the incorporation of 'planetary' characteristics (color, temperature, orbital placement) I wonder what might be more complex (sophisticated?) integrations (is a deeper spatial expression necessary?)
sandee..
It is alleged that Wright got the inspiration for fallingwater from a zen painting.
well for a start i can tell you that in terms of integration.. There's more to vedic arch than 2-D symbolism (like a floor plan mimicking the cosmos that u'r reffering to)
The word 'veda'in sanskrit translates to 'vision"..
yes your right that Vedic arch in essence is a representation of the workings of the cosmos ..but essentially the aryans of India tried to incorporate their 'vision' of the universe in their architecture.
but the main point that your looking for (I guess ) was that in their architecture,
1)The form and function of the structure
2) The workings of the cosmos ( they called it "Rita"--laws of the universe)
3) with the human mind.
so to give u an example...they would have created a integration between the planets revolving around the sun with the rooms in a dwelling revolving around the living room and metaphorised it with blood circulating around the human heart or more metaphysically....with the thoughts rotating around the soul/mind.
The integration was not only spatial but also metaphysical.
this is just a pittance .It's a vast complex science as u maybe aware.
tell u more later.
(I did my college thesis on ancient Vedic/ buddhist arch principles and metaphysics...feel free to ask anything)
sandee,Thats the ancient grid layout symbol of the the vastupurusha
vastupurusha in sanskrit="the Architectural/Elemental man" or the
"the structural dwarf".
something like the vedic version of vitruvian man or the golden mean
( except that its almost 10,000 years old )
Its supposed to give the ideal locations of rooms in a dwelling.
The 'brahmasthan' which u reffered to is the square marked around the vastupurusha's navel in the pic.
the word written above the belly button in the pic is "brahma".
check out the symbolism ,It's the central location of the dwelling symbolised by the dwarf's stomach ( like a stomach is the source of all 'nourishment' to the rest of the body/ like the sun nourishing /being the centre of the cosmos )
is this system still common in india? like feng shui in asia...?
jump,
yea it's kind of going thru a rediscovery in modern Indian Arch.
it's called Vastu Shastra in India.Many clients in India today insist that architects design according to the principles of vastu-shastra.
Feng shui and vastushastra both are very popular today.
Ofcourse there are also many 'quacks' (architects )who know barely anything/nothing of this vedic science and still make huge bucks.
(They are helped by the fact that this was an ancient esoteric science yet fairly unknown to the general populace today)
still common?
its more dominant these days. infact, i`ve wanted to start a thread about such geomancy practices, its role and views from a professional point.
i am a skeptic, but it is interesting.
from talking to colleagues who practice in singapore and malaysia feng shui can be really incomprehensible and contradictory but is also very sensible beyond the mystic content. and so a good thing. at the very least a way to ensure natural light or ventilation in a building...when it works. but it doesn't always, depending on the master i suppose.
vastushastra is considered scientific? or more like religion?
Jump...very nice question.
If i may explain a lil bit elaborately, Vastushastra has its roots in the Vedas.
as I said earlier ,The word "veda"means "vision" in sanskrit...verily because it is a compendium of "visions" of reality.... that the Aryan sages "saw" during their reflections and meditations.
As compared to other religions--take any example... all of them can be traced to a single human founder/establisher
judaism-Prophet Moses,Christianity-Christ , Islam-Prophet Muhammed.
except for the vedas..No single human founder can be credited ( there were many sages ), ....If there is a single human founder there can be a chance of error of
perception of reality since no human being has a perfect /completely unadulterated semblance of reality.
( i.,e why things outside of us and within us are the way they are , and what they are and who we are...what makes thecosmos..what makes us)
for e.g --It's written in the Rigveda about cosmic particles that hit earth every second (which is confirmed by science )and a prayer is addressed to the cosmos asking for deliverance from any of such particles which may be harmful )
It's non-sectarian, secular grounded truths that are applicable to all.
so most of the esoteric vedic tenets of vastushastra are intrinsically connected with"science" cloaked in the garb of religion so that the common man follows them for his benefit.
Ill give u a couple of small examples.
1) Its considered "bad luck" in vastushastra tenets to have a kitchen wash sink next to your cooking area.
very simply ..if one did so this would mean eventual increase of fuel costs because of the constant proximity to water and water vapour.
Hence it's coated with the bad luck sugar coating so that everyone follows it.
so whatever deconstructive,post-modern etc house one may have..this fact remains the same everywhere.
2) its Considered 'evil' in vastushastra to have your bed /sleeping position withhead at north direction and legs pointed to the south.
simple logic for this is that the human body's electromagnetic field (if the head is at north direction )would oppose/repel the earth's natural magnetic field emanating from the north pole.
that leads to eventual bad circulation and disturbed sleep.
so likewise here too whatever deconstructive,post-modern etc house one may have..this fact remains the same everywhere. since we are all humans and the north pole is still at the north pole.
These are some of the tenets..I think they are brilliant and moreso considering the fact that they were formulated thousands of years ago when the world was supposed to be not advanced..how the hindu sages knew all these principles is still a mystery.
Im not so conversant with feng shui ...whatever i know of it ..it appears to be very similar to vastu shastra...although i would think it has it's roots in vastu shastra ( ina diff name/slightly tweaked way )imported to China from India in the ancient past along with buddhism.
nevermore, I'd like to understand better. When you say, "how the hindu sages knew all these principles is still a mystery" does this mean vastushastra is hinduism?
I too am interested in "geomancy practices, its role and views from a professional point." Interested in that there are some "geomancy practices" in architecture that I've been keeping my eye out for. For example-- www.quondam.com/38/3733.htm
I've also found the same circle/square juncture diagram within an early FLWright decorative ceiling grille design. So I'm just adding some examples that might fit into the discussion.
And here's some of my thoughts regarding the Indian continent. First, it's like Africa, almost like an African reenactment even, except smaller and the Himalayans to the north instead the Mediterranean. Yet, only Africa has the Great Pyramids. But there definitely is Sri Lanka instead of Madagascar. Smaller, yes, but perhaps a little more culturally developed over time? It looks at least close, and to complete the set, there's the Australian continent with its Tasmania.
[At least allow me some poetic geomancy license on that last paragraph.]
So, back to Wright, it might be interesting to look at Wright's work from just around 100 years ago, and then continue the 100-year-back-looking as the future years go by. Is geomancy there to be found? He certainly always had a flair for 2D and 3D (basic) geometry.
Sandee, regarding "orbital placement," consider this:
www.museumpeace.com/11/1076.htm
bottom diagram is of our solar system
Quondam,Vastushastra ( trnsl:--Architecture is an aspect of vedic knowledge.What is known today as Hinduism is an derivation evolved over millenia of the original vedic faith
Abt cosmic principles/laws of nature, the sages knew facts 5-10,000 yrs back which are confirmed only in the 20 th century ,
few eg.s->Cosmic rays,The existence of the atom,sunspots affecting life on earth..the future emergence of viruses are all mentioned in the hindu scriptures.
How these and many many more facts could be known by them without the aid of modern science.that is a mystery.
and The Indian subcontinent, I would say is more closer to a microcosm of earth than africa..You can find all geographical and climatic zones here in one place.
Equatorial tropic to semi-arctic, desert,rainforest etc.
and all kinds of human races native here.(If thats what u mean)
thanks for that nevermore.
interesting. one point, mind, the magnetic pole is not the same as the north pole, and it migrates daily/yearly quite a bit. still more or less north-ish, but not exactly. does that matter?
but anyway....do you learn/study such things at archi-school or is it purely extracurricular?
No..wasnt part of the regular curriculum at arch school.
I chose a related topic for my thesis. (Symbolism of Buddhist Philosophy in its Architecture) titled :Architecture of the Void.
All this happened to be part of the research for it.
nevermore, what is the relationship between "original vedic faith" and "hindu scripture"?
I'm not trying to be a pain, but it seems you have used these phrases interchangably and I just what to be sure.
Is it the hindu scriptures that at 5-10,000 years old and is the original vedia faith then even older?