Why do architects constantly complain about their jobs?
Aaron Willette
Apr 29, 05 9:55 am
As I see it, architecture is like any other profession - it is what you make of it. Unfortunately with job markets/society, a lot of people end up taking very bland (myself included) jobs, forcing them to make the effort to do something interesting/fun/exploratory on their own; this is where the ball is dropped, because its tough when working a 40+ hour work week to get home and sit down to more architecture. I'm a big fan of the "nothing happens if you don't show up" approach to life, but it doesn't work for everyone - I'm young (24) and have little to no commitment, so I can take chances and make sacrifices that someone with a significant other and family can't take. Plus there is the whole contrast between what we're taught and what we actually do, etc. etc.
But I'm just a young intern, and would love to here some people that have been doing this for more than a year give some feedback.
French
Apr 29, 05 10:39 am
I'm not a practicing architect, and the reason is not because it's boring. The reason, has you may understand from other's opinion, is the frustration/ work vs satisfaction/reward ratio. You spend enormous amount of time working for a deeply intersting discipline, but nobody else cares. That's why I became a renderer, that and the fact that I hate construction sites.
stephanie
Apr 29, 05 10:57 am
I LOVE MY JOB.
but i'm with the whore...young.
i don't think complaining = boring
one time when i was on vacation, and still in school i had just finished eating dinner and was leaving the restaurant, we walked by this little architect's office with the light on and the door open, so i stopped in and was talking to the man, who was clearly working late, telling him i was a student, asking what kind of work he did...and he said that what he loved about his job is that by the time he gets really sick of it, and doesn't think he could take it anymore, it gets finished up and he gets to work on something new. (and he was a fucking spec writer!) i've always took that to heart though...i've found it true that i am always doing different things, i don't do the same menial task day in day out...sure, i'll complain every now and again, but i wouldn't say architecture is boring.
e
Apr 29, 05 11:02 am
all jobs are boring if you think of what you do as a J-O-B.
mauOne™
Apr 29, 05 11:49 am
errr whore ?
i agree, tis what u make of it, i love architecture, i think its exiting, challenging, to design and to build, it creates uunique situations all of the time, i crave designing and building whatever may come.
Aaron Willette
Apr 29, 05 11:53 am
I'm pretty sure when she said "the whore" she was referring to my previous post...
French
Apr 29, 05 12:12 pm
you mean as opposed to referring to stephanie's?
stephanie
Apr 29, 05 12:16 pm
i meant pixelwhore.
to clarify, (for mauOne) i do not have, nor am i a whore (literally at least).
milw-arch
Apr 29, 05 12:18 pm
Stephanie was referring to Pixelwhore's post, whereas Mau was wondering why Stephanie said "whore". Hence the "?".
French
Apr 29, 05 12:27 pm
thanks for these clarifications. It's so hard to stat politically correst in these forums...
boring? lets compare architecture to selling insurance or i-banking. i dont see the point of going into architecture if you dont find your job interesting, certainly it cant be the money.
RankStranger
Apr 29, 05 1:01 pm
As much as people will not like to admit, I think it definitely has something to do with money. Not as much as we get paid too little but others get paid too much. I cringe when I tell people I'm an architect because they automatically assume I'm rich at that point. Then I have to spend the next 2 minutes explaining I make less than the auto mechanic down the street. I remember when I graduated college I worked for one of the top firms in Chicago where the principals were highly respected award winning FAIA and all that. A friend of mine went to work for Arthur Andersen and, right out of school, billed out for more than the principals of my company who had been at it for over 50 years. It's because we are not in the business of making other people money. And I'm glad - I'd kill myself if I were.
Actually I reread the question. The complaining is because architects are dreamers and artists - atleast the good ones. But unlike artists who can create something for the price of the canvas or film, an architect is somewhat at the mercy of the amount of money someone else is willing to pay for the craft (see #1 - a client won't spend an extra penny than needed on a space they will spend most of their life in but will spend thousands/millions on lawyers, accountants, advertising, etc.). Sure you can do something for yourself or inexpensively, but even the smallest kick-ass outhouse you design will run in the thousands. Unless you're satisfied with your work staying unbuilt. But that's like the painter having ideas for paintings and just writing them down.
I thought of a third. My girlfriend is a writer and she came home one night so tire of working on this project that has been going on forever. 3 WEEKS! The fact that we work on a project for a year or more before moving on to something new can get a little old. Contracts, shop drawings, change orders, modifications - JUST BUILD THE FRIGGIN THING ALREADY! Which relates somewhat to #2 - we're just creators who want to do great work and not deal with the beaurocracy or the whole construction industry. That's why design/build - which I have no experience in - interests me so much. I think in an ideal world (in my opinion) the architect would act as designer/builder/developer. Design and build what you want, how you want, and either move in yourself, or sell it to whom you want. Ahhhh, bliss.
stephanie
Apr 29, 05 1:13 pm
i've always explained the money thing as "architects don't make that much, we just have to look like we do"
and then i babble on about how we like having nice/well designed things.
Aaron Willette
Apr 29, 05 2:14 pm
I usually say the money thing is a myth, like the whole "good at math" thing that most people assume... thank you Radioshack!
pencrush
Apr 29, 05 3:19 pm
I think architecture is a pretty boring job.. I've tried to console myself by thinking of it as job, and not my life. I think this is unfortunate, but there's not much I can do about it. I always thought of myself as one of the people that works until they're 90, because they love the work. If I were doing mostly design, that might be the case, but it isn't. I am not really interested in the construction part of architecture, or documentation. In my experience, this makes up about 95% of a project, so there's not much hope.
I try to design work at home, but with a wife, and a house, I find my free time lacking.
Just an opinion.
pasha
Apr 29, 05 3:39 pm
well, i hope that the software will advance so far in few years that CD's will draw themselves.. and i'll just design..
it also depends on what kind of work you are doing..
i am working in a firm that does healthcare.. if anyone wants to design, stay out of that field..
ah.. beer30
pencrush
Apr 29, 05 3:53 pm
The firm I work in actually does some "interesting" work. A lot of mixed-use, some university work, some retail, etc.
I don't live in LA or NYC, though, so I know unless I move, I'm never going to get to work for a firm that does art museums or cultural centers or other "signature" buildings.
It's frustrating in the real world when design are based on things like, "let's make it look modern" or, "this building is meier-esque." Not exactly the high minded conceptual work you enjoyed (well I did anyway) doing in school. Like I said, I think I work at one of the better firms in town too..
that's where most my boredom comes from.. the reality of constructability and budgets.. the downfall of any good designer.
on my way
Apr 29, 05 3:55 pm
There are so many interesting ideas here... and of course they go right ot the heart of what architecture is all about...
* pollen - you would kill yourself if you were in the business of making people money? I guess that rules out any retail projects, or industrial, or offices, or... well just about anything except for housing not built by a developer... I bring this up, because THIS IS OUR PROBLEM! We need to realize that WE ARE in the business of making people money. The fact that we don't think we are is exactly the reason we don't make any ourselves!
A great example of this, which I deal with every day, is the broker. What the hell does a broker do? He matches an owner with a tenant (which takes him a few days work) and he makes 5% on a deal - and nobody complains about giving him a few hundred thousand dollars... because the broker argues that he's just produced a multi-million dollar revenue stream for the owner... But when the architect tries to get money for "design" the dialog isn't about producing revenue... and because of that, nobody wants to pay for it...
* Another thing that always trips me out is few people will throw incredible amounts of money down the toilet on things like a night out to an expensive dinner with $15 grey goose martinis and $100 bottles of wine, a black Mercedes, Armani suits, etc - and they define their taste by their selection of these expensive things... but then they'll live in a $500k home that looks like every other ugly house in the subdivision?
Why is it so hard to define real architecture as something that people should desire and covet, like they do the other objects of material wealth?
I realize this doesn't really answer the question of whether architecture is boring, but for me, how much I get paid is sometimes related to whether my job is boring. For example, feeling like my time is really worth something makes time spent working seem valuable, whether I'm doing a task I love or a task I abhore. If I'm doing something I don't like because the client asked me to do it, I don't mind nearly as much if they're paying me well to do it...
whistler
Apr 29, 05 4:14 pm
I have to say that anybody who complains that doing a set of CDs is just production and not design has missed the opportunity of doing a huge amount of design. Mies said " god is in the details". the details are the design, get over the idea of doing design work then handing it over to the working drawing department. I never worked in large office for good reason. Design is in every aspect of what you do right down to the font style you chose to label details with.
I can't imagine a less boring job ever. Even BONO has to perform the same song over and over..... how dull is that. Architects don't have to design the same building over and over.
heterarch
Apr 29, 05 4:39 pm
problems with the profession of architecture:
(in no certain order)
1-everyone thinks they are/could be an architect, so they have no real respect for actual architects. i'm sure anyone COULD be an architect - if they too spent years in school pulling all-nighters and having their pride/sweat/passion torn apart in countless reviews, then worked for years in the profession learning the infinite minutia of the field... - but until you do so, you AREN'T an architect, so respect those who have made it their life's work instead of seeing them merely as someone/a tool to "draw what you tell them to". (for example) mr surgeon, i didn't go to med school, i haven't ever operated on anyone, so i'm not going to tell you how to perform an operation - so don't tell me how to design. etc.
2-money. as pollen said, for most architects, money isn't the big issue, but that doesn't make it right that with the hours we work, the amount of education we have, the certifications and continuing education we are required to pursue, and the impact on society that we have - that we would make so little. it's merely a matter of fairness.
3-most architects (in my experience) don't even see a real problem with the state of the profession. "stop whining" is the most common reply i hear from architects when i mention how screwed up i think the profession is. i have no idea why this is the case.
4-no one, especially including the aia, does any decent job at all of promoting the importance/respectability/neccessity/etc of architects. we live in a world of media and spin, we have to accept that and produce a bit of pr.
5-there are too many architects. we are forced to cut eachother's throats in order to just survive. this forces firms to shave massive chunks of hours out of design and quality in order to just pump out production and stay in business. schools should be forced to dramatically cut down on how many architecture students they accept and graduate. unless of course a miracle occurs and a much larger portion of construction projects begin incorporating architects. (what's the stat? 5% of buildings have an architect involved?)
6-codes, legal issues and insurance have gotten/continue to get out of hand. certainly we all want everyone to be safe, certainly buildings are more complicated than ever before, etc. but they've grown more extreme than they are useful. if these trends continue, every building will have to have bubble wrap on every wall, every step will be replaced with a tiny elevator, and every space will have to be an equally sized completely fire proofed cell. we may as well put every person in the country in a straight jacket too. so much money gets funneled in to code compliance, etc, that there's only enough left to make everything out of the absolute cheapest, least durable, least attractive materials and forms.
that's the short list. the full list would be too long to read.
so why do i still love it?
heterarch
Apr 29, 05 4:46 pm
pasha: har. i work in healthcare as well, couldn't agree more with your assessment. also, it will be our 'beer:30' in about 45 minutes.. exact same name for it. :) mmm. beer30.
whistler: actually, in my experience, architects DO design approximately the same building over and over. they're forced to. that's what clients want, that's what makes firms 'profitable'. that isn't to say that it's the EXACT same building, but it's as close as any two live performances of the same song by Bone are.
RankStranger
Apr 29, 05 5:08 pm
pen crush: you definitely do not need to be in NYC or LA to work or create for yourself excellent projects. Look at Herbert Lewis Kruse Blunck - they're in friggin Iowa. Great work. Or Rick Joy, Stephen Holl, Will Bruder, arquitectonica, etc. And I worked on 2 museums in 3 years in Chicago.
on my way: excellent points. I agree that some fields are in the business of making people money. Retail clients realize that, but office building clients most times do not. Not until now with the sustainable design movement are clients realizing or atleast being convinced that a better work environment makes more money. And your thing about $100 wine or the $500k house, my god, did you read my mind. Why on earth do people think they want a house made out of sticks with brick on the front, vinyl siding on the sides, and a giant entrance foyer with a HUGE chandelier that looks exactly like the 50 houses you just drove past?! Come ON people. Is this really what people want? I don't think so, but in my theory I blame it on the giant retail store industry (ie. Walmart). People have become only able to want what is right in front of their faces an nothing else. If they can't see it . . . And there's a bigass house over there for sale? But these are also the people who voted for you-know-who. But that's another topic.
Whistler: You are correct. CD's I love CDs. It's probably my favorite part. I went to a Fred Eaglesmith concert a couple months ago and saw your second point firsthand. His big thing, is he's a great storyteller on stage and tells these hilarious stories inbetween songs. A year ago I loved it because I thought he really interacted with the crowd. Then this year - he told the same exact stories word for word. I thought, my god, it's just a routine! I still think he's a great musician but I just realized how old it must get to do the same exact thing every night.
meversusyou
Apr 29, 05 5:56 pm
i would compare the job we do to composing the song rather than performing it.
the finished product does the performing.
our routine consists of monotonous, even trivial tasks, that help to perfect the craft. it is through these rituals that our profession evolves. problems solved open doors to more and more problems needing solutions...why would that be boring?
boring is knowing everything you need to know by the time you recieve a college diploma.
boring is making money, living invisibly, and dying without contributing.
yoiyoi
Apr 29, 05 5:57 pm
whistler: mies said " God is in my details"; the devil is in the details.
e
Apr 29, 05 6:12 pm
agreed whistler. wanna see a building go bad? don't worry about the details.
pencrush
Apr 29, 05 7:16 pm
I don't know.. Do you draft when you're working on personal design projects? Do you call clients or contractors? I doubt it.. (assuming these are fictional projects) you know why? because it's fucking boring sorry it is.. and that's what I do most the time, thus I think it is a boring job.
Sorry, I'm a negative person in general, so I'm going to stop my whining and let you all continue on with your discussion.
:)
pencrush
Apr 29, 05 7:22 pm
Oh, I think the reason (sorry, I know I said I'd shut up) more wealthy people live in mcmansions is because it's what other people in there socio-economic group are doing.. Buying an acura isn't a design choice, it's a status choice. A design choice would be buying an old (insert nicely designed car here, I don't like cars, I can't give a good example) and fixing up or buying a well designed car. Their colleagues are buying a house that has 5 bedrooms a tile roof, a pool, and a flat screen tv, they'll buy something similar. Watch that show cribs.. you'll see what I mean. These items are sold as status items and in order to gain credibility, people purchase them. Most of the public doesn't care about design in any form, not just built form.
mauOne™
Apr 29, 05 7:33 pm
i hand draw, i draft my own construction plans, i call workers at their houses, i do my own 3D, i deal with material providers, i do the municipal paperwork, i go to the construction site, i celebrate with the workers and with the clients, i cash the checks, its all part of the fun
will galloway
Apr 29, 05 7:35 pm
wow, i am seriously impressed with the bleakness here, active + passive.
Architects are almost always in the business of making money for someone, or else making things/places for the super wealthy (Shigeru Ban aside). It is sometimes a shock to go out with your clients and realise they are in their 20's or 30's but have millions in the bank just lying around. I wouldn't want their jobs anyway; but this idea that clients are all money counting idiots is not my experience. If that is somehow the case playing the misunderstood artist suffering in silence doesn't lead anywhere useful anyway. Why not move on? Or speak up?
which brings me back to the question. Even when I was doing my internship I was never particularly bored with work. I loved the design work of course, and doing construction docs and spec writing turned out to be fun, and as important as the broad gestures. no worries. The only thing I hated absolutely doing was cost estimates (as close to accounting as I ever want to come). And presenting to clients is a rush, much more interesting than presenting to other architects, cuz if you f*ck up you lose the job. That whole architecture as performance thing really begins to make sense.
Now I work for myself and the type of design work is much smaller and tends to be more interesting than what I did in offices. And it turns out business (can you say networking?) is fun too.
Shit, I didn't realise i was so pollyannic. But I'm pretty happy with my work; it's taken me to London, Italy, Tokyo, who knows where next. I have never made a lot of money but did a few good buildings, and it sure as f*ck beats to hell working in the pig processing plant back home.
pencrush
Apr 29, 05 7:37 pm
Congrats jump! it sounds like things have worked out well for you.
evilplatypus
Apr 29, 05 7:40 pm
"that's where most my boredom comes from.. the reality of constructability and budgets.. the downfall of any good designer."
The good ones master this part. Only by mastering this will you truly be able to see your vision through, not having it steered by others. I see it as a 3 part equation - design(talent)/analytic fervor/charm.
pencrush
Apr 29, 05 7:44 pm
well i'm screwed. I don't have either of the last two, and the first one is questionable.
mauOne™
Apr 29, 05 7:46 pm
pencrush, no one's screwed, just do it - your way !
will galloway
Apr 29, 05 9:27 pm
my life as an architect is generally satisfying, but many of my friends are doing better, running their own offices or working in interesting offices. only a few are doing the corporate gig but they are happy with that role (don't ask me why) and don't complain much either.
The nice thing about architecture is the ease of leaving when the work or the office don't suit.
vado retro
Apr 29, 05 11:14 pm
being a whore is never boring.
will galloway
Apr 30, 05 1:24 am
oh yeh!
heterarch
May 2, 05 9:32 am
nothing wrong with being a whore. but i need to find myself a good pimp. because at least for me, pimping ain't easy.
Emerson123
May 2, 05 7:25 pm
I absolutely love my job. I can't imagine doing anything else. It would be nice to make money, but I guess maybe that is something you sacrifice by doing something you're completely passionate about?
Besides, isn't it fun to all get together and play, "I suffer for my work?"
heterarch
May 2, 05 7:44 pm
it is fun to play "i suffer for my work", but it's also stupid, selfish, and destructive.
i don't really care about money (everybody says this of course), even if i know that i'm worth considerably more. however, i do care that for every person making less than their worth, there's someone making more than their worth. which is ultimately bad for everyone.
as for something that we're completely passionate about and complaining, those that complain typically do so because they are TOO passionate about architecture to put up with what they perceive as a bastardization of their perception of the profession.
will galloway
May 2, 05 9:57 pm
the suffering for my work thing doesn't play out well, but i don't really know any architects who do that anyway. even the ones who work for hadid, sejima, or ito for free are doing it as an investment in their future and not for their art. Whether their judgement is impaired or not is a separate question.
As for pay, well we are paid poorly because that is the way the system is arranged. this might be simply a problem of organisation but i have a suspicion that it is also the fact that our profession is a bit fake. We don't actually have a mnopoly on knowledge that makes us special in the way a doctor or a nurse does. A contractor can make a building as well as an architect technically (and here in Japan they do, with contractors required to have what amounts to an architectural licence to practice. They tend not to be good designers, mind).
The only way to be satisfied is to work for a firm where the money-holders want architecture, not building. Or find clients of that sort on your own and get paid what the market will take.
Rem seems to be making a go at changing the market and the guild-y architecture system simultaneously. Maybe we all need to take that approach, become entrepreneurs for our professon instead of just coasting through and bitching about our lot in life...
CJarch
May 3, 05 1:42 am
i don't understand why this comparison with the fields of medicine or law persist. we don't get paid as much as these people because the stakes of our profession aren't as high. if we design a piece of shit no one dies or goes to jail. "good" architecture is a luxury not a necessity. comparisons with cars and fashion don't hold up either. these things don't cost nearly as much as a quality house/building.
will galloway
May 3, 05 3:34 am
exactly the reason the special legal protection of the profession of architecture was nearly revoked in the UK a few years back.
Architects are compared with doctors and lawyers because we are, like them, required to be licenced according to legal standards set by state or nation; though what we do is iffy in terms of requiring special legal status. So we have bolstered the cause by slipping in things like feduciary duties and taking on legal responsibility for technical and/or cost failures, but those things are slightly week when you get down to it. But lets face it architects are compared to lawyers and doctors because architects want it that way; it raises our status in society, and hopefully our ability to command high salaries and influential positions. But it doesn't quite work does it...
hello
May 3, 05 9:56 am
Most of you are complaining....
7T_1
May 3, 05 8:57 pm
"i don't do architecture so that I can have clients. I have clients so that I can do architecture" - fountainhead...
heterarch
May 3, 05 9:50 pm
cjarch and jump: actually, if an architect doesn't design something to code correctly and a fire breaks out, then people certainly can die. it's still not the same as the responsibility of a doctor, but i maintain as i have in other threads, lawyers have nothing on us. if justice prevails, in terms of the way the system operates - not in terms of a specific case, then a lawyer's responsibility is not large at all. in reality, that's rarely the case of course, and so lawyers do have a great deal of responsibility. a responsibility either to cheat the system in order to disrupt justice and get paid, or (optimistically) to fight those who are cheating the system. i have great respect for the fighters, but they're not the ones making any cash, and not who we're comparing architects and doctors to.
and beyond all of that, for me, the most important responsibility of architects and architecture is to enhance the world in which humanity lives through the built environment. many of you will scoff at that. i don't care. if i didn't believe in that with all of my heart, i wouldn't have gone in to architecture. for me, the stakes of architecture are higher than any other profession, including medicine. medicine deals with keeping one person alive at a time. for me, architecture deals with making every one of those lives, and every other life worth living.
will galloway
May 4, 05 9:16 am
i agree m. het. by and large. I practice architecture for its effect on people; hopefully positive. That still doesn't change the fact that the legal issues covered by codes and zoning lead to a set of responsibilites that set us apart legally. BUT my point is that many contractors are willing and ready to take on those responsibilities, so why not let them practice as architects? They certainly have the ability to pass the rest of the skill sets on the NCARB. Or we could go the Norway route and make it legal for ANYONE to practice architecture regardless of training.
The competition would be refreshing. But then all of those tired interns could quit their jobs and make offices of their own. Could be fun.
heterarch
May 4, 05 10:19 am
jump: you're absolutely right about our legal and code responsibilities. i wasn't saying anything to the contrary. indeed my understanding of your earlier post conflicts with my understanding of your recent post. which is what i was disputing.
as for contractors becoming architects, i have no problem at all with it. you're absolutely right about their skill sets being a good basis for becoming an architect. however, i only agree to ANYONE becoming an architect if they go to school and get an architectural degree. if you haven't spent at least 5 years in school pulling hundreds and hundreds of all nighters, having to endure and defend yourself from professional criticism, taken the history and theory courses, etc. then you have no business calling yourself an architect. of course i don't include the MEP/structures/construction classes, since former contractors should have that requisite knowledge in spades already. the skill sets on the ncarb ensure an architect can design a technically responsibly building. architecture school is meant to ensure that architects design socially/psychologically/humanistically responsible buildings.
of course, i'm not saying all schools actually accomplish this, but then, ncarb doesn't always accomplish its goal either.
as for competition, architects really don't need competition. in fact, i really believe that arch schools need to dramatically limit the number of students they take in and graduate. architects are already under cutting eachother to death. i know my office is consistently having to deal with competitors that are willing to drop their fees a half percent to get a job, so then we cut ours to get under theirs, etc. eventually of course, you get the job, but only have enough budget to design a pole barn, and you have to work unpaid overtime just to do THAT. supply and demand.
Ms Beary
May 5, 05 12:00 pm
Is architecture boring?
Today, after doing weeks of construction documents to 95% complete, the exterior walls are now 1 1/8" bigger. Me and a draftsperson are going to spend a week each catching everything this effects from casework to ceiling plan layout to column furring details to fire extinguisher locations and we won't even get it all.
You tell me if it sounds boring.
If you don't know, I will tell you, yes, this is the epitome of boring and tedious.
heterarch
May 5, 05 3:26 pm
:) i empathize. a couple of months ago i had to deal with a completely different situation.. the walls got 1 1/2" smaller... :)
still, there are those wonderful, lucid moments. or at least, so i'm told.
Why do architects constantly complain about their jobs?
As I see it, architecture is like any other profession - it is what you make of it. Unfortunately with job markets/society, a lot of people end up taking very bland (myself included) jobs, forcing them to make the effort to do something interesting/fun/exploratory on their own; this is where the ball is dropped, because its tough when working a 40+ hour work week to get home and sit down to more architecture. I'm a big fan of the "nothing happens if you don't show up" approach to life, but it doesn't work for everyone - I'm young (24) and have little to no commitment, so I can take chances and make sacrifices that someone with a significant other and family can't take. Plus there is the whole contrast between what we're taught and what we actually do, etc. etc.
But I'm just a young intern, and would love to here some people that have been doing this for more than a year give some feedback.
I'm not a practicing architect, and the reason is not because it's boring. The reason, has you may understand from other's opinion, is the frustration/ work vs satisfaction/reward ratio. You spend enormous amount of time working for a deeply intersting discipline, but nobody else cares. That's why I became a renderer, that and the fact that I hate construction sites.
I LOVE MY JOB.
but i'm with the whore...young.
i don't think complaining = boring
one time when i was on vacation, and still in school i had just finished eating dinner and was leaving the restaurant, we walked by this little architect's office with the light on and the door open, so i stopped in and was talking to the man, who was clearly working late, telling him i was a student, asking what kind of work he did...and he said that what he loved about his job is that by the time he gets really sick of it, and doesn't think he could take it anymore, it gets finished up and he gets to work on something new. (and he was a fucking spec writer!) i've always took that to heart though...i've found it true that i am always doing different things, i don't do the same menial task day in day out...sure, i'll complain every now and again, but i wouldn't say architecture is boring.
all jobs are boring if you think of what you do as a J-O-B.
errr whore ?
i agree, tis what u make of it, i love architecture, i think its exiting, challenging, to design and to build, it creates uunique situations all of the time, i crave designing and building whatever may come.
I'm pretty sure when she said "the whore" she was referring to my previous post...
you mean as opposed to referring to stephanie's?
i meant pixelwhore.
to clarify, (for mauOne) i do not have, nor am i a whore (literally at least).
Stephanie was referring to Pixelwhore's post, whereas Mau was wondering why Stephanie said "whore". Hence the "?".
thanks for these clarifications. It's so hard to stat politically correst in these forums...
boring? lets compare architecture to selling insurance or i-banking. i dont see the point of going into architecture if you dont find your job interesting, certainly it cant be the money.
As much as people will not like to admit, I think it definitely has something to do with money. Not as much as we get paid too little but others get paid too much. I cringe when I tell people I'm an architect because they automatically assume I'm rich at that point. Then I have to spend the next 2 minutes explaining I make less than the auto mechanic down the street. I remember when I graduated college I worked for one of the top firms in Chicago where the principals were highly respected award winning FAIA and all that. A friend of mine went to work for Arthur Andersen and, right out of school, billed out for more than the principals of my company who had been at it for over 50 years. It's because we are not in the business of making other people money. And I'm glad - I'd kill myself if I were.
Actually I reread the question. The complaining is because architects are dreamers and artists - atleast the good ones. But unlike artists who can create something for the price of the canvas or film, an architect is somewhat at the mercy of the amount of money someone else is willing to pay for the craft (see #1 - a client won't spend an extra penny than needed on a space they will spend most of their life in but will spend thousands/millions on lawyers, accountants, advertising, etc.). Sure you can do something for yourself or inexpensively, but even the smallest kick-ass outhouse you design will run in the thousands. Unless you're satisfied with your work staying unbuilt. But that's like the painter having ideas for paintings and just writing them down.
I thought of a third. My girlfriend is a writer and she came home one night so tire of working on this project that has been going on forever. 3 WEEKS! The fact that we work on a project for a year or more before moving on to something new can get a little old. Contracts, shop drawings, change orders, modifications - JUST BUILD THE FRIGGIN THING ALREADY! Which relates somewhat to #2 - we're just creators who want to do great work and not deal with the beaurocracy or the whole construction industry. That's why design/build - which I have no experience in - interests me so much. I think in an ideal world (in my opinion) the architect would act as designer/builder/developer. Design and build what you want, how you want, and either move in yourself, or sell it to whom you want. Ahhhh, bliss.
i've always explained the money thing as "architects don't make that much, we just have to look like we do"
and then i babble on about how we like having nice/well designed things.
I usually say the money thing is a myth, like the whole "good at math" thing that most people assume... thank you Radioshack!
I think architecture is a pretty boring job.. I've tried to console myself by thinking of it as job, and not my life. I think this is unfortunate, but there's not much I can do about it. I always thought of myself as one of the people that works until they're 90, because they love the work. If I were doing mostly design, that might be the case, but it isn't. I am not really interested in the construction part of architecture, or documentation. In my experience, this makes up about 95% of a project, so there's not much hope.
I try to design work at home, but with a wife, and a house, I find my free time lacking.
Just an opinion.
well, i hope that the software will advance so far in few years that CD's will draw themselves.. and i'll just design..
it also depends on what kind of work you are doing..
i am working in a firm that does healthcare.. if anyone wants to design, stay out of that field..
ah.. beer30
The firm I work in actually does some "interesting" work. A lot of mixed-use, some university work, some retail, etc.
I don't live in LA or NYC, though, so I know unless I move, I'm never going to get to work for a firm that does art museums or cultural centers or other "signature" buildings.
It's frustrating in the real world when design are based on things like, "let's make it look modern" or, "this building is meier-esque." Not exactly the high minded conceptual work you enjoyed (well I did anyway) doing in school. Like I said, I think I work at one of the better firms in town too..
that's where most my boredom comes from.. the reality of constructability and budgets.. the downfall of any good designer.
There are so many interesting ideas here... and of course they go right ot the heart of what architecture is all about...
* pollen - you would kill yourself if you were in the business of making people money? I guess that rules out any retail projects, or industrial, or offices, or... well just about anything except for housing not built by a developer... I bring this up, because THIS IS OUR PROBLEM! We need to realize that WE ARE in the business of making people money. The fact that we don't think we are is exactly the reason we don't make any ourselves!
A great example of this, which I deal with every day, is the broker. What the hell does a broker do? He matches an owner with a tenant (which takes him a few days work) and he makes 5% on a deal - and nobody complains about giving him a few hundred thousand dollars... because the broker argues that he's just produced a multi-million dollar revenue stream for the owner... But when the architect tries to get money for "design" the dialog isn't about producing revenue... and because of that, nobody wants to pay for it...
* Another thing that always trips me out is few people will throw incredible amounts of money down the toilet on things like a night out to an expensive dinner with $15 grey goose martinis and $100 bottles of wine, a black Mercedes, Armani suits, etc - and they define their taste by their selection of these expensive things... but then they'll live in a $500k home that looks like every other ugly house in the subdivision?
Why is it so hard to define real architecture as something that people should desire and covet, like they do the other objects of material wealth?
I realize this doesn't really answer the question of whether architecture is boring, but for me, how much I get paid is sometimes related to whether my job is boring. For example, feeling like my time is really worth something makes time spent working seem valuable, whether I'm doing a task I love or a task I abhore. If I'm doing something I don't like because the client asked me to do it, I don't mind nearly as much if they're paying me well to do it...
I have to say that anybody who complains that doing a set of CDs is just production and not design has missed the opportunity of doing a huge amount of design. Mies said " god is in the details". the details are the design, get over the idea of doing design work then handing it over to the working drawing department. I never worked in large office for good reason. Design is in every aspect of what you do right down to the font style you chose to label details with.
I can't imagine a less boring job ever. Even BONO has to perform the same song over and over..... how dull is that. Architects don't have to design the same building over and over.
problems with the profession of architecture:
(in no certain order)
1-everyone thinks they are/could be an architect, so they have no real respect for actual architects. i'm sure anyone COULD be an architect - if they too spent years in school pulling all-nighters and having their pride/sweat/passion torn apart in countless reviews, then worked for years in the profession learning the infinite minutia of the field... - but until you do so, you AREN'T an architect, so respect those who have made it their life's work instead of seeing them merely as someone/a tool to "draw what you tell them to". (for example) mr surgeon, i didn't go to med school, i haven't ever operated on anyone, so i'm not going to tell you how to perform an operation - so don't tell me how to design. etc.
2-money. as pollen said, for most architects, money isn't the big issue, but that doesn't make it right that with the hours we work, the amount of education we have, the certifications and continuing education we are required to pursue, and the impact on society that we have - that we would make so little. it's merely a matter of fairness.
3-most architects (in my experience) don't even see a real problem with the state of the profession. "stop whining" is the most common reply i hear from architects when i mention how screwed up i think the profession is. i have no idea why this is the case.
4-no one, especially including the aia, does any decent job at all of promoting the importance/respectability/neccessity/etc of architects. we live in a world of media and spin, we have to accept that and produce a bit of pr.
5-there are too many architects. we are forced to cut eachother's throats in order to just survive. this forces firms to shave massive chunks of hours out of design and quality in order to just pump out production and stay in business. schools should be forced to dramatically cut down on how many architecture students they accept and graduate. unless of course a miracle occurs and a much larger portion of construction projects begin incorporating architects. (what's the stat? 5% of buildings have an architect involved?)
6-codes, legal issues and insurance have gotten/continue to get out of hand. certainly we all want everyone to be safe, certainly buildings are more complicated than ever before, etc. but they've grown more extreme than they are useful. if these trends continue, every building will have to have bubble wrap on every wall, every step will be replaced with a tiny elevator, and every space will have to be an equally sized completely fire proofed cell. we may as well put every person in the country in a straight jacket too. so much money gets funneled in to code compliance, etc, that there's only enough left to make everything out of the absolute cheapest, least durable, least attractive materials and forms.
that's the short list. the full list would be too long to read.
so why do i still love it?
pasha: har. i work in healthcare as well, couldn't agree more with your assessment. also, it will be our 'beer:30' in about 45 minutes.. exact same name for it. :) mmm. beer30.
whistler: actually, in my experience, architects DO design approximately the same building over and over. they're forced to. that's what clients want, that's what makes firms 'profitable'. that isn't to say that it's the EXACT same building, but it's as close as any two live performances of the same song by Bone are.
pen crush: you definitely do not need to be in NYC or LA to work or create for yourself excellent projects. Look at Herbert Lewis Kruse Blunck - they're in friggin Iowa. Great work. Or Rick Joy, Stephen Holl, Will Bruder, arquitectonica, etc. And I worked on 2 museums in 3 years in Chicago.
on my way: excellent points. I agree that some fields are in the business of making people money. Retail clients realize that, but office building clients most times do not. Not until now with the sustainable design movement are clients realizing or atleast being convinced that a better work environment makes more money. And your thing about $100 wine or the $500k house, my god, did you read my mind. Why on earth do people think they want a house made out of sticks with brick on the front, vinyl siding on the sides, and a giant entrance foyer with a HUGE chandelier that looks exactly like the 50 houses you just drove past?! Come ON people. Is this really what people want? I don't think so, but in my theory I blame it on the giant retail store industry (ie. Walmart). People have become only able to want what is right in front of their faces an nothing else. If they can't see it . . . And there's a bigass house over there for sale? But these are also the people who voted for you-know-who. But that's another topic.
Whistler: You are correct. CD's I love CDs. It's probably my favorite part. I went to a Fred Eaglesmith concert a couple months ago and saw your second point firsthand. His big thing, is he's a great storyteller on stage and tells these hilarious stories inbetween songs. A year ago I loved it because I thought he really interacted with the crowd. Then this year - he told the same exact stories word for word. I thought, my god, it's just a routine! I still think he's a great musician but I just realized how old it must get to do the same exact thing every night.
i would compare the job we do to composing the song rather than performing it.
the finished product does the performing.
our routine consists of monotonous, even trivial tasks, that help to perfect the craft. it is through these rituals that our profession evolves. problems solved open doors to more and more problems needing solutions...why would that be boring?
boring is knowing everything you need to know by the time you recieve a college diploma.
boring is making money, living invisibly, and dying without contributing.
whistler: mies said " God is in my details"; the devil is in the details.
agreed whistler. wanna see a building go bad? don't worry about the details.
I don't know.. Do you draft when you're working on personal design projects? Do you call clients or contractors? I doubt it.. (assuming these are fictional projects) you know why? because it's fucking boring sorry it is.. and that's what I do most the time, thus I think it is a boring job.
Sorry, I'm a negative person in general, so I'm going to stop my whining and let you all continue on with your discussion.
:)
Oh, I think the reason (sorry, I know I said I'd shut up) more wealthy people live in mcmansions is because it's what other people in there socio-economic group are doing.. Buying an acura isn't a design choice, it's a status choice. A design choice would be buying an old (insert nicely designed car here, I don't like cars, I can't give a good example) and fixing up or buying a well designed car. Their colleagues are buying a house that has 5 bedrooms a tile roof, a pool, and a flat screen tv, they'll buy something similar. Watch that show cribs.. you'll see what I mean. These items are sold as status items and in order to gain credibility, people purchase them. Most of the public doesn't care about design in any form, not just built form.
i hand draw, i draft my own construction plans, i call workers at their houses, i do my own 3D, i deal with material providers, i do the municipal paperwork, i go to the construction site, i celebrate with the workers and with the clients, i cash the checks, its all part of the fun
wow, i am seriously impressed with the bleakness here, active + passive.
Architects are almost always in the business of making money for someone, or else making things/places for the super wealthy (Shigeru Ban aside). It is sometimes a shock to go out with your clients and realise they are in their 20's or 30's but have millions in the bank just lying around. I wouldn't want their jobs anyway; but this idea that clients are all money counting idiots is not my experience. If that is somehow the case playing the misunderstood artist suffering in silence doesn't lead anywhere useful anyway. Why not move on? Or speak up?
which brings me back to the question. Even when I was doing my internship I was never particularly bored with work. I loved the design work of course, and doing construction docs and spec writing turned out to be fun, and as important as the broad gestures. no worries. The only thing I hated absolutely doing was cost estimates (as close to accounting as I ever want to come). And presenting to clients is a rush, much more interesting than presenting to other architects, cuz if you f*ck up you lose the job. That whole architecture as performance thing really begins to make sense.
Now I work for myself and the type of design work is much smaller and tends to be more interesting than what I did in offices. And it turns out business (can you say networking?) is fun too.
Shit, I didn't realise i was so pollyannic. But I'm pretty happy with my work; it's taken me to London, Italy, Tokyo, who knows where next. I have never made a lot of money but did a few good buildings, and it sure as f*ck beats to hell working in the pig processing plant back home.
Congrats jump! it sounds like things have worked out well for you.
"that's where most my boredom comes from.. the reality of constructability and budgets.. the downfall of any good designer."
The good ones master this part. Only by mastering this will you truly be able to see your vision through, not having it steered by others. I see it as a 3 part equation - design(talent)/analytic fervor/charm.
well i'm screwed. I don't have either of the last two, and the first one is questionable.
pencrush, no one's screwed, just do it - your way !
my life as an architect is generally satisfying, but many of my friends are doing better, running their own offices or working in interesting offices. only a few are doing the corporate gig but they are happy with that role (don't ask me why) and don't complain much either.
The nice thing about architecture is the ease of leaving when the work or the office don't suit.
being a whore is never boring.
oh yeh!
nothing wrong with being a whore. but i need to find myself a good pimp. because at least for me, pimping ain't easy.
I absolutely love my job. I can't imagine doing anything else. It would be nice to make money, but I guess maybe that is something you sacrifice by doing something you're completely passionate about?
Besides, isn't it fun to all get together and play, "I suffer for my work?"
it is fun to play "i suffer for my work", but it's also stupid, selfish, and destructive.
i don't really care about money (everybody says this of course), even if i know that i'm worth considerably more. however, i do care that for every person making less than their worth, there's someone making more than their worth. which is ultimately bad for everyone.
as for something that we're completely passionate about and complaining, those that complain typically do so because they are TOO passionate about architecture to put up with what they perceive as a bastardization of their perception of the profession.
the suffering for my work thing doesn't play out well, but i don't really know any architects who do that anyway. even the ones who work for hadid, sejima, or ito for free are doing it as an investment in their future and not for their art. Whether their judgement is impaired or not is a separate question.
As for pay, well we are paid poorly because that is the way the system is arranged. this might be simply a problem of organisation but i have a suspicion that it is also the fact that our profession is a bit fake. We don't actually have a mnopoly on knowledge that makes us special in the way a doctor or a nurse does. A contractor can make a building as well as an architect technically (and here in Japan they do, with contractors required to have what amounts to an architectural licence to practice. They tend not to be good designers, mind).
The only way to be satisfied is to work for a firm where the money-holders want architecture, not building. Or find clients of that sort on your own and get paid what the market will take.
Rem seems to be making a go at changing the market and the guild-y architecture system simultaneously. Maybe we all need to take that approach, become entrepreneurs for our professon instead of just coasting through and bitching about our lot in life...
i don't understand why this comparison with the fields of medicine or law persist. we don't get paid as much as these people because the stakes of our profession aren't as high. if we design a piece of shit no one dies or goes to jail. "good" architecture is a luxury not a necessity. comparisons with cars and fashion don't hold up either. these things don't cost nearly as much as a quality house/building.
exactly the reason the special legal protection of the profession of architecture was nearly revoked in the UK a few years back.
Architects are compared with doctors and lawyers because we are, like them, required to be licenced according to legal standards set by state or nation; though what we do is iffy in terms of requiring special legal status. So we have bolstered the cause by slipping in things like feduciary duties and taking on legal responsibility for technical and/or cost failures, but those things are slightly week when you get down to it. But lets face it architects are compared to lawyers and doctors because architects want it that way; it raises our status in society, and hopefully our ability to command high salaries and influential positions. But it doesn't quite work does it...
Most of you are complaining....
"i don't do architecture so that I can have clients. I have clients so that I can do architecture" - fountainhead...
cjarch and jump: actually, if an architect doesn't design something to code correctly and a fire breaks out, then people certainly can die. it's still not the same as the responsibility of a doctor, but i maintain as i have in other threads, lawyers have nothing on us. if justice prevails, in terms of the way the system operates - not in terms of a specific case, then a lawyer's responsibility is not large at all. in reality, that's rarely the case of course, and so lawyers do have a great deal of responsibility. a responsibility either to cheat the system in order to disrupt justice and get paid, or (optimistically) to fight those who are cheating the system. i have great respect for the fighters, but they're not the ones making any cash, and not who we're comparing architects and doctors to.
and beyond all of that, for me, the most important responsibility of architects and architecture is to enhance the world in which humanity lives through the built environment. many of you will scoff at that. i don't care. if i didn't believe in that with all of my heart, i wouldn't have gone in to architecture. for me, the stakes of architecture are higher than any other profession, including medicine. medicine deals with keeping one person alive at a time. for me, architecture deals with making every one of those lives, and every other life worth living.
i agree m. het. by and large. I practice architecture for its effect on people; hopefully positive. That still doesn't change the fact that the legal issues covered by codes and zoning lead to a set of responsibilites that set us apart legally. BUT my point is that many contractors are willing and ready to take on those responsibilities, so why not let them practice as architects? They certainly have the ability to pass the rest of the skill sets on the NCARB. Or we could go the Norway route and make it legal for ANYONE to practice architecture regardless of training.
The competition would be refreshing. But then all of those tired interns could quit their jobs and make offices of their own. Could be fun.
jump: you're absolutely right about our legal and code responsibilities. i wasn't saying anything to the contrary. indeed my understanding of your earlier post conflicts with my understanding of your recent post. which is what i was disputing.
as for contractors becoming architects, i have no problem at all with it. you're absolutely right about their skill sets being a good basis for becoming an architect. however, i only agree to ANYONE becoming an architect if they go to school and get an architectural degree. if you haven't spent at least 5 years in school pulling hundreds and hundreds of all nighters, having to endure and defend yourself from professional criticism, taken the history and theory courses, etc. then you have no business calling yourself an architect. of course i don't include the MEP/structures/construction classes, since former contractors should have that requisite knowledge in spades already. the skill sets on the ncarb ensure an architect can design a technically responsibly building. architecture school is meant to ensure that architects design socially/psychologically/humanistically responsible buildings.
of course, i'm not saying all schools actually accomplish this, but then, ncarb doesn't always accomplish its goal either.
as for competition, architects really don't need competition. in fact, i really believe that arch schools need to dramatically limit the number of students they take in and graduate. architects are already under cutting eachother to death. i know my office is consistently having to deal with competitors that are willing to drop their fees a half percent to get a job, so then we cut ours to get under theirs, etc. eventually of course, you get the job, but only have enough budget to design a pole barn, and you have to work unpaid overtime just to do THAT. supply and demand.
Is architecture boring?
Today, after doing weeks of construction documents to 95% complete, the exterior walls are now 1 1/8" bigger. Me and a draftsperson are going to spend a week each catching everything this effects from casework to ceiling plan layout to column furring details to fire extinguisher locations and we won't even get it all.
You tell me if it sounds boring.
If you don't know, I will tell you, yes, this is the epitome of boring and tedious.
:) i empathize. a couple of months ago i had to deal with a completely different situation.. the walls got 1 1/2" smaller... :)
still, there are those wonderful, lucid moments. or at least, so i'm told.