Hello All, Before I pass this along to A/E and also have the fire marshal sign off, I hope to get opinions from others who may have seen this scenario before. This is a100 unit senior living development with nine ADA units and and two elevators. Pertaining to my question is the fact that we do not want to install insulation or sheetrock until the roofing is on to protect them from the daily "monsoon" rains that we get in the afternoons and I can't see how we can build up to the roof and follow the detail S-3 to get a 2 hour rated wall.
So...my long winded question is will my mark up showing 2 layers of 5/8 GWB at the stairwell side and 2 layers at the unit side give a two hour seperation.?
axonapoplectic
Sep 8, 24 8:28 pm
I'd go back to the architect and tell them what is going on so you can figure out a solution together. You can also find a corresponding UL/GA rated assembly for what you are proposing and then see if the architect (or whoever stamped the drawings) agrees to this solution - but you still need to talk to them and let them know why there's an issue.
Whoever drew this needs to explain to you what is going on and why they did what they did.
go do it
Sep 8, 24 10:42 pm
oh, I agree and will RFI the architect but was just curious if anyone has bumped into this situation before. All of the literature that I could find has the GWB on both sides of a single wall and not seperated as per my mark up.
THX
axonapoplectic
Sep 9, 24 9:59 am
There’s a 2 hour shaft wall (which they’ve indicated) then they have a furred out wall directly adjacent to the shaft wall. It looks like theyre trying to achieve some kind of acoustic separation. Again - you need to talk to the architect to better understand their design intent. Open Communication with all team members goes a long way on any project. You’re all trying to get a building built.
axonapoplectic
Sep 9, 24 10:00 am
IMO - phone call before RFI, then formalize in an RFI.
bowling_ball
Sep 10, 24 7:00 pm
To add to that, whenever possible, have a proposed solution. Even if it's wrong, the architect has the chance to explain and everybody comes out the better for it.
BulgarBlogger
Sep 8, 24 11:21 pm
I’m not understanding what the installation of gypsum board has to do with the installation of the roof. The images are grainy and I can’t tell what is going on. I’m not that the exterior walls of the stairway (if they are actually classified as “exterior walls” per code) need to be rated, but that’s a different topic. If you can clarify your question a bit, I can comment further. Are you a contractor btw?
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 10:44 am
If the stair is part of the accessible route then it will need to be rated all the way around. If the stair isn't and depending on the assembly type the rating will need to extend a certain distance on the exterior walls perpendicular to the intersection. There are a lot of unknows still so it's very difficult to tell anything.
BulgarBlogger
Sep 9, 24 11:57 am
I have had plenty of stairs located along the perimeter of a building facing a public way. The exterior walls of these stairs have not had to be rated. Anyway, as you said, lot's of uknowns.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 1:30 pm
I have as well. Depending on the type of stair, required assembly and if they're part of the accessible exit they need to be rated to some extent.
natematt
Sep 10, 24 1:15 pm
I’m pretty sure the issue is that the gyp needs to be installed prior to the furring wall in this approach, meaning that the furring wall would need to go in after the roof, which is not ideal sequencing. However, furring walls over rated walls aren’t exactly uncommon. So the reality
is that the contractor should be sequencing their construction with this in mind. Pretty decent odds they will have similar issues at party walls.
If there is a need/desire to accelerate this, or if they get the roof on and want to work on this in parallel abut don’t have the building fully dried-in (which seems likely) they can also look into options for water resistant gyp products. I wouldn’t recommend that if you just outright don’t have a roof though.
BulgarBlogger
Sep 8, 24 11:25 pm
did you see how the horizontal plywood that is per of the roof assembly in the structural detail cantilevers out past the face of stud to catch the exterior wall studs? Seems pretty clear to me that you can install the roofing to protect the other materials first and then go back and install the gypsum board layers, etc. Very confused by your question.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 10:41 am
go do it -
What is your role in this project? General Contractor, Owners Rep, Owner?
Everyday Architect
Sep 9, 24 11:09 am
Google "gypsum board pre-rock" and then use products that can be exposed until you're able to dry-in the building. I like DensArmor Plus.
go do it
Sep 9, 24 11:56 am
Guys, I am the project stupidintendent...Err, I mean superintendent who was a GC for a long time but doing this for now.
EA - I proposed the DensArmor to the owner but he is too frugal, so we are stuck where we are. As you can see by the floor framing snip we need to frame the entire stairwell in order to install the roofing and then we can do the insulation, pre-rock for furr downs, that has HVAC in them. And also pre-rock at the corridors for fire suppression. Until the roof is on all I can do is plumbing and electrical.
I sent an RFI to the Architect for the fire rating of my markup but do we think it is a 2 hour separation?
THX
BulgarBlogger
Sep 9, 24 12:32 pm
Oh I see now.
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 24 12:32 pm
client too frugal for glass-matt sheathing when it likely the easiest/simplest solution? The amount of $ I'd end up charging a client to run an alternative solution to a life-safety issue like this will eclipse the premium of the sheathing product.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 1:33 pm
go do it - if you're the super then aren't you responsible for the means and methods? Why are you asking us for our opinions when we don't have all the information? You've already asked the architect.
You have to realize that you're asking us to do your job for you.
Everyday Architect
Sep 9, 24 5:32 pm
Seems like the simplest solutions would be the DensArmor or some temporary enclosures. Dip into the contingency fund if the Owner won't approve the change order. This is not a hill you, or the project, need to die on.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 5:41 pm
Exactly EA. In addition, if the the owner wants to dictate means and methods that go beyond construction as shown in the CD's then the owner should pay for it.
Everyday Architect
Sep 9, 24 6:49 pm
I don't see the owner as trying to dictate means and methods. I see an architect that didn't account for constructability and typical sequencing in their design, and a contractor trying to propose the wrong solution to the problem. I also see the contractor not having coordinated their trades properly and it looks like they're going to have to remove some framing.
I could be wrong though.
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 24 9:53 am
I get the constructability part but the sequencing is means and methods. I'm not even sure if there is an issue with constructability at this point. The OP has confirmed that the drawings he/she provided aren't what's being built so . . . .
Everyday Architect
Sep 10, 24 1:15 pm
Whether sequencing is means and methods is probably an exercise in semantics. Regardless, I think we'd both agree it's the contractors purview. I still don't think the owner is trying to dictate it ... they just don't want to pay more for a material they don't think they should (I'd argue they haven't been fully educated to the issues and potential solutions).
The design as detailed (from what limited information we've been given) looks like a constructability issue. The fact they aren't following the drawings is more evidence to this. The more we're learning about this the more it looks like a giant cluster rather than something as simple as the OP wants it to be.
No one seems particularly blameless in all of it. Architect detailed something that was potentially impossible to build, Contractor didn't coordinate for changes to the details or for proper materials nor sequence the work to be able to construct per the design intent, Owner doesn't want to pay for changes that are valid and they should be willing to make.
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 24 5:47 pm
I agree EA.
go do it
Sep 10, 24 7:07 pm
EA – That is a pretty fair analysis of the situation with the limited information I provided except the part about trade coordination. The crux of this whole issue is that we need a roof on before we can A). Run the other subs through, besides plumbing and electrical. B). The owner didn’t want the added expense of glass-mat. C). The insulator would not insulate the 2x4 stair wall without a roof. This left me to build as I am.
Lessons learned:
1. Have the architect explain the constructability of this design within the limitations above.
2. Have my office and the architect educate the owner on a more sensible approach. Everyone on this forum has had an owner that to some extent dictates means and methods and or design changes so this is not a novel situation that I am in but unfortunately the decisions made in ivory towers affect us poor ole’ field hands the most. :( You guys want to hear another good one? The owner wants to turn over a floor at a time to occupants! And my office is on board with this because they see a revenue stream because of the inconvenience! This means all life safety is complete. Ain't that a hoot!
Everyday Architect
Sep 11, 24 6:31 pm
"...except the part about trade coordination."
Oh, so you told the framers to hold off on framing the furring wall on the unit side until the drywallers had installed the 2 layers of gyp on the unit side of the 2-hour rated stairwell wall? No, they just did all the framing anyway and made it so no one could access that area to install the necessary gyp board?
You're right I must be mistaken about the trade coordination.
go do it
Sep 9, 24 5:06 pm
Relax Chad, I am just making conversation in a forum, which they are designed for, and I seem to be doing my job by following inquiry protocol. I thank you for your contribution to the conversation though.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 5:17 pm
I apologize for thinking you were asking for free services. A lot of people come here for free professional services. A few even have been hired by someone else to provide them with paid services and are literally asking us to assist them.
go do it
Sep 9, 24 6:27 pm
No worries Chad, we all are holding on to this spinning rock with bloody fingernails traveling through space at 67,000 mph while hoping there is still ice cream in the freezer when we get home.
go do it
Sep 9, 24 6:36 pm
Good news though, arch thinks that my markup solution will work. The firm's principle is coming for a site visit tomorrow and after he finishes his cappuccino & biscotti dolci :)
I will get his opinion.
BulgarBlogger
Sep 9, 24 6:47 pm
Principle or principal
Everyday Architect
Sep 9, 24 6:56 pm
If the detail 221 is accurate, your proposed changes to S-3 won't work to get you a 2-hour rating. Hoping the architect realizes that before the inspection. I've drawn you a little detail to illustrate your issue. Good luck.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 6:57 pm
You're reaching BulgarBlogger. Try harder.
go do it
Sep 9, 24 7:35 pm
EA - 221 isn't quite accurate. The 2x4 wall does not ballon up but instead has joist bearing on it as in the photo. I have the inspector coming out also to brainstorm. BB - I make that mistake almost every time. Thats what I get for joking on Architects I guess. Thanks all for the input!
Everyday Architect
Sep 9, 24 8:19 pm
If the joists are bearing on the 2-hour rated wall, why didn't you just wait to build out the furring walls on the unit side until the building was dried in and the 2-hour rated wall was rocked?
go do it
Sep 10, 24 5:17 pm
There is plumbing and electric in this wall
Everyday Architect
Sep 11, 24 4:14 pm
You missed my point
Chad Miller
Sep 11, 24 5:18 pm
In addition - the supporting structure of the rated walls needs to be rated as well.
Per EA's comment - why rated the furring wall? Why install the furring wall now. Instead, rated the exterior wall only, provide fire blocking, then add the furring wall at a later time.
BulgarBlogger
Sep 9, 24 6:16 pm
I must say- the above drawings are some of the worst drafting I have seen in a long time. Let me guess- this project is in the south west?
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 24 6:30 pm
If you're going to troll, try harder.
go do it
Sep 9, 24 7:16 pm
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! How did you Know? The drawings don't have enough details and cuts for me. But I will make the building look like the picture anyway!
t a z
Sep 10, 24 2:32 pm
Um, are we not looking at structural framing
details, with the exception being the stair section?
I see no project specific architectural details.
It is the lack of an arch section at the floor interface necessitating the RFI on how to achieve the specified rating, no?
Everyday Architect
Sep 11, 24 6:33 pm
I'm not sure I've ever seen a structural detail refer to the structural drawings for more information before. Seen it plenty in architectural drawings though.
go do it
Sep 11, 24 7:25 pm
guys none of these are structural details
go do it
Sep 11, 24 7:37 pm
here's a structural
one that is posted above with keynotes
go do it
Sep 11, 24 7:48 pm
see below
smaarch
Sep 10, 24 1:23 am
Why don't you write an RFI? I refuse to answer this question. I'm not the AOR and have no idea of the code path they have taken.
graphemic
Sep 10, 24 3:30 pm
I think it's an interesting problem, reminds me of an ARE question. I've certainly enjoyed the responses here.
go do it
Sep 11, 24 7:49 pm
.;
;
go do it
Sep 11, 24 7:57 pm
plenty of detail call outs
go do it
Sep 11, 24 8:10 pm
finally! we got hacked and the company was down for 3 weeks and I think my computer is still not well.
Hello All, Before I pass this along to A/E and also have the fire marshal sign off, I hope to get opinions from others who may have seen this scenario before. This is a100 unit senior living development with nine ADA units and and two elevators. Pertaining to my question is the fact that we do not want to install insulation or sheetrock until the roofing is on to protect them from the daily "monsoon" rains that we get in the afternoons and I can't see how we can build up to the roof and follow the detail S-3 to get a 2 hour rated wall.
So...my long winded question is will my mark up showing 2 layers of 5/8 GWB at the stairwell side and 2 layers at the unit side give a two hour seperation.?
I'd go back to the architect and tell them what is going on so you can figure out a solution together. You can also find a corresponding UL/GA rated assembly for what you are proposing and then see if the architect (or whoever stamped the drawings) agrees to this solution - but you still need to talk to them and let them know why there's an issue.
Whoever drew this needs to explain to you what is going on and why they did what they did.
oh, I agree and will RFI the architect but was just curious if anyone has bumped into this situation before. All of the literature that I could find has the GWB on both sides of a single wall and not seperated as per my mark up.
THX
There’s a 2 hour shaft wall (which they’ve indicated) then they have a furred out wall directly adjacent to the shaft wall. It looks like theyre trying to achieve some kind of acoustic separation. Again - you need to talk to the architect to better understand their design intent. Open Communication with all team members goes a long way on any project. You’re all trying to get a building built.
IMO - phone call before RFI, then formalize in an RFI.
To add to that, whenever possible, have a proposed solution. Even if it's wrong, the architect has the chance to explain and everybody comes out the better for it.
I’m not understanding what the installation of gypsum board has to do with the installation of the roof. The images are grainy and I can’t tell what is going on. I’m not that the exterior walls of the stairway (if they are actually classified as “exterior walls” per code) need to be rated, but that’s a different topic. If you can clarify your question a bit, I can comment further. Are you a contractor btw?
If the stair is part of the accessible route then it will need to be rated all the way around. If the stair isn't and depending on the assembly type the rating will need to extend a certain distance on the exterior walls perpendicular to the intersection. There are a lot of unknows still so it's very difficult to tell anything.
I have had plenty of stairs located along the perimeter of a building facing a public way. The exterior walls of these stairs have not had to be rated. Anyway, as you said, lot's of uknowns.
I have as well. Depending on the type of stair, required assembly and if they're part of the accessible exit they need to be rated to some extent.
I’m pretty sure the issue is that the gyp needs to be installed prior to the furring wall in this approach, meaning that the furring wall would need to go in after the roof, which is not ideal sequencing. However, furring walls over rated walls aren’t exactly uncommon. So the reality is that the contractor should be sequencing their construction with this in mind. Pretty decent odds they will have similar issues at party walls.
If there is a need/desire to accelerate this, or if they get the roof on and want to work on this in parallel abut don’t have the building fully dried-in (which seems likely) they can also look into options for water resistant gyp products. I wouldn’t recommend that if you just outright don’t have a roof though.
did you see how the horizontal plywood that is per of the roof assembly in the structural detail cantilevers out past the face of stud to catch the exterior wall studs? Seems pretty clear to me that you can install the roofing to protect the other materials first and then go back and install the gypsum board layers, etc. Very confused by your question.
go do it -
What is your role in this project? General Contractor, Owners Rep, Owner?
Google "gypsum board pre-rock" and then use products that can be exposed until you're able to dry-in the building. I like DensArmor Plus.
Guys, I am the project stupidintendent...Err, I mean superintendent who was a GC for a long time but doing this for now.
EA - I proposed the DensArmor to the owner but he is too frugal, so we are stuck where we are. As you can see by the floor framing snip we need to frame the entire stairwell in order to install the roofing and then we can do the insulation, pre-rock for furr downs, that has HVAC in them. And also pre-rock at the corridors for fire suppression. Until the roof is on all I can do is plumbing and electrical.
I sent an RFI to the Architect for the fire rating of my markup but do we think it is a 2 hour separation?
THX
Oh I see now.
client too frugal for glass-matt sheathing when it likely the easiest/simplest solution? The amount of $ I'd end up charging a client to run an alternative solution to a life-safety issue like this will eclipse the premium of the sheathing product.
go do it - if you're the super then aren't you responsible for the means and methods? Why are you asking us for our opinions when we don't have all the information? You've already asked the architect.
You have to realize that you're asking us to do your job for you.
Seems like the simplest solutions would be the DensArmor or some temporary enclosures. Dip into the contingency fund if the Owner won't approve the change order. This is not a hill you, or the project, need to die on.
Exactly EA. In addition, if the the owner wants to dictate means and methods that go beyond construction as shown in the CD's then the owner should pay for it.
I don't see the owner as trying to dictate means and methods. I see an architect that didn't account for constructability and typical sequencing in their design, and a contractor trying to propose the wrong solution to the problem. I also see the contractor not having coordinated their trades properly and it looks like they're going to have to remove some framing.
I could be wrong though.
I get the constructability part but the sequencing is means and methods. I'm not even sure if there is an issue with constructability at this point. The OP has confirmed that the drawings he/she provided aren't what's being built so . . . .
Whether sequencing is means and methods is probably an exercise in semantics. Regardless, I think we'd both agree it's the contractors purview. I still don't think the owner is trying to dictate it ... they just don't want to pay more for a material they don't think they should (I'd argue they haven't been fully educated to the issues and potential solutions).
The design as detailed (from what limited information we've been given) looks like a constructability issue. The fact they aren't following the drawings is more evidence to this. The more we're learning about this the more it looks like a giant cluster rather than something as simple as the OP wants it to be.
No one seems particularly blameless in all of it. Architect detailed something that was potentially impossible to build, Contractor didn't coordinate for changes to the details or for proper materials nor sequence the work to be able to construct per the design intent, Owner doesn't want to pay for changes that are valid and they should be willing to make.
I agree EA.
EA – That is a pretty fair analysis of the situation with the limited information I provided except the part about trade coordination. The crux of this whole issue is that we need a roof on before we can A). Run the other subs through, besides plumbing and electrical. B). The owner didn’t want the added expense of glass-mat. C). The insulator would not insulate the 2x4 stair wall without a roof. This left me to build as I am. Lessons learned: 1. Have the architect explain the constructability of this design within the limitations above. 2. Have my office and the architect educate the owner on a more sensible approach. Everyone on this forum has had an owner that to some extent dictates means and methods and or design changes so this is not a novel situation that I am in but unfortunately the decisions made in ivory towers affect us poor ole’ field hands the most. :( You guys want to hear another good one? The owner wants to turn over a floor at a time to occupants! And my office is on board with this because they see a revenue stream because of the inconvenience! This means all life safety is complete. Ain't that a hoot!
"...except the part about trade coordination."
Oh, so you told the framers to hold off on framing the furring wall on the unit side until the drywallers had installed the 2 layers of gyp on the unit side of the 2-hour rated stairwell wall? No, they just did all the framing anyway and made it so no one could access that area to install the necessary gyp board?
You're right I must be mistaken about the trade coordination.
Relax Chad, I am just making conversation in a forum, which they are designed for, and I seem to be doing my job by following inquiry protocol. I thank you for your contribution to the conversation though.
I apologize for thinking you were asking for free services. A lot of people come here for free professional services. A few even have been hired by someone else to provide them with paid services and are literally asking us to assist them.
No worries Chad, we all are holding on to this spinning rock with bloody fingernails traveling through space at 67,000 mph while hoping there is still ice cream in the freezer when we get home.
Good news though, arch thinks that my markup solution will work. The firm's principle is coming for a site visit tomorrow and after he finishes his cappuccino & biscotti dolci :) I will get his opinion.
Principle or principal
If the detail 221 is accurate, your proposed changes to S-3 won't work to get you a 2-hour rating. Hoping the architect realizes that before the inspection. I've drawn you a little detail to illustrate your issue. Good luck.
You're reaching BulgarBlogger. Try harder.
EA - 221 isn't quite accurate. The 2x4 wall does not ballon up but instead has joist bearing on it as in the photo. I have the inspector coming out also to brainstorm. BB - I make that mistake almost every time. Thats what I get for joking on Architects I guess. Thanks all for the input!
If the joists are bearing on the 2-hour rated wall, why didn't you just wait to build out the furring walls on the unit side until the building was dried in and the 2-hour rated wall was rocked?
There is plumbing and electric in this wall
You missed my point
In addition - the supporting structure of the rated walls needs to be rated as well.
Per EA's comment - why rated the furring wall? Why install the furring wall now. Instead, rated the exterior wall only, provide fire blocking, then add the furring wall at a later time.
I must say- the above drawings are some of the worst drafting I have seen in a long time. Let me guess- this project is in the south west?
If you're going to troll, try harder.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! How did you Know? The drawings don't have enough details and cuts for me. But I will make the building look like the picture anyway!
Um, are we not looking at structural framing details, with the exception being the stair section?
I see no project specific architectural details.
It is the lack of an arch section at the floor interface necessitating the RFI on how to achieve the specified rating, no?
I'm not sure I've ever seen a structural detail refer to the structural drawings for more information before. Seen it plenty in architectural drawings though.
guys none of these are structural details
here's a structural
one that is posted above with keynotes
see below
Why don't you write an RFI?
I refuse to answer this question.
I'm not the AOR and have no idea of the code path they have taken.
I think it's an interesting problem, reminds me of an ARE question. I've certainly enjoyed the responses here.
.;
;
plenty of detail call outs
finally! we got hacked and the company was down for 3 weeks and I think my computer is still not well.