I’m an archi student (2nd year) and I would really like to do in-situ concrete for my design, however I’m struggling to find ways to insulate this, I have looked at Patrick Gartmann’s house in char and love the way it turned out, however walls end up pretty thick to meet u-value regs, I’ve also looked at Ando’s designs but have struggled to find any construction details. Any help or advice would be appreciated!
Non Sequitur
Mar 30, 24 6:35 pm
is this not why you’re in school? Plenty of material out there, do the leg work yourself. Also, concrete is a poor insulator and will not meet most energy/insulation codes without at least 100mn of continuous foam. Find a clever way to get the look you want.
Lack
Mar 31, 24 5:32 am
Thanks for the really great help! But someone else has given me a lot
better advice and info to help me learn and improve with my designs :))
Chad Miller
Apr 1, 24 1:07 pm
Lack - you're asking us to do your homework for you. You're lucky we're speaking to you at all.
ae_0
Mar 31, 24 11:09 pm
fun fact; pretty sure the proprietary Ando detail is to cast the insulation within the section of the wall, which could be an insane thing to do, so don't try at home (or school).
Lack
Apr 1, 24 2:29 am
yes! i came across this 'sandwich’ idea which i think is the best option, but it’ll be super helpful to see a detail of it, i’ll go have a look. thank you !
gwharton
Apr 1, 24 1:45 pm
"Sandwiching" insulation in a concrete wall is very expensive and complicated to do with Cast-in-Place, Ando style. There are a couple of work-arounds: 1) do tilt-up concrete instead (with the insulation cast into the panel), or 2) cast the main wall, insulate the inside of it, then put a cement skim-coat on underlayment covering the insulation to make it look like concrete, even though it isn't. You could also do shot-crete on the inside face instead, and then trowel it smooth like it was a cast wall.
joseffischer
Apr 1, 24 7:10 am
el croquis had details of Ando (and other) buildings way back in the day. If your school library has that mag, check there.
Non Sequitur
Apr 1, 24 8:00 am
But that requires some effort. Why bother when you can just ask randos on the internet instead?
msparchitect
Apr 1, 24 9:54 am
You want to build out of concrete... ok. But are you saying you want that concrete exposed? To the interior or the exterior? Both? If both you make a sandwich. It isn't that hard. Pour one wall, add XPS or spray closed cell, that's used as the exterior wall formwork. Depending if its a heated or cooled environment, the exterior wall will likely be thinner as its only a facade. You want it thinner? Most developers would too, so that's why they use cladding products like Equitone, etc. Create a rainscreen of sorts. Look at typical house foundation details and options too.
t a z
Apr 1, 24 11:06 am
Google "Structural Insulated Panel" or SIP and look for concrete or cementitious variants.
Patrick Gartmann - House in Chur, 2003. Designed and built by the architect-engineer for his family, a special mix of high performance “insulated” concrete was created with recycled glass aggregate and a clay-like cement. The resulting structure is a monolithic, single layer concrete pour for all of the walls and floors that does not require additional cavities for soft insulation to keep the home warm in colder months.The finish is also unique for a concrete structures, somewhat rougher and more adobe in its tactility
it's waaaaaaay simpler than anybody thought here...the insulation is the concrete.
This happens when countries don't have crooked lobbyists protecting their old and failing industries from innovation and/or competition.
Chad Miller
Apr 1, 24 2:48 pm
What's the r-value per inch? I don't read French and can't view broken links.
t a z
Apr 1, 24 3:26 pm
I don't think LWC with a high insulation value is a new invention, but in the US it is likely more expensive than normal weight concrete
JLC-1
Apr 1, 24 4:03 pm
the broken link came in the article, that's why you looked at the swiss website. R = 0.4375 x inch, 5.5 times better than normal concrete. only good for climate zones 1 & 2 in normal 8" thickness
Chad Miller
Apr 1, 24 4:31 pm
That's am improvement. It would be nice to use with ci.
Wood Guy
Apr 2, 24 10:30 am
A couple of ideas to consider:
https://www.theperfectblock.co... is an ICCF--like an ICF block but with recycled EPS foam, a cement additive that improves durability, and an integral web design that results in a concrete grid in the wall rather than a full concrete wall. The interior and exterior need to be finished with something but the embodied carbon level of the assembly is much lower than with a CIP concrete--foam--CIP sandwich.
https://www.comfortblock.com/ is a concrete block using reduced-GWP , insulating concrete with EPS cores. The blocks are dimensionally precise and are glued together, not mortared. I know the owner/inventor and have seen the results of modeling from Building Science Corp that shows an effective R-30, which is pretty amazing for that type of product.
I’m an archi student (2nd year) and I would really like to do in-situ concrete for my design, however I’m struggling to find ways to insulate this, I have looked at Patrick Gartmann’s house in char and love the way it turned out, however walls end up pretty thick to meet u-value regs, I’ve also looked at Ando’s designs but have struggled to find any construction details. Any help or advice would be appreciated!
is this not why you’re in school? Plenty of material out there, do the leg work yourself. Also, concrete is a poor insulator and will not meet most energy/insulation codes without at least 100mn of continuous foam. Find a clever way to get the look you want.
Thanks for the really great help! But someone else has given me a lot better advice and info to help me learn and improve with my designs :))
Lack - you're asking us to do your homework for you. You're lucky we're speaking to you at all.
fun fact; pretty sure the proprietary Ando detail is to cast the insulation within the section of the wall, which could be an insane thing to do, so don't try at home (or school).
yes! i came across this 'sandwich’ idea which i think is the best option, but it’ll be super helpful to see a detail of it, i’ll go have a look. thank you !
"Sandwiching" insulation in a concrete wall is very expensive and complicated to do with Cast-in-Place, Ando style. There are a couple of work-arounds: 1) do tilt-up concrete instead (with the insulation cast into the panel), or 2) cast the main wall, insulate the inside of it, then put a cement skim-coat on underlayment covering the insulation to make it look like concrete, even though it isn't. You could also do shot-crete on the inside face instead, and then trowel it smooth like it was a cast wall.
el croquis had details of Ando (and other) buildings way back in the day. If your school library has that mag, check there.
But that requires some effort. Why bother when you can just ask randos on the internet instead?
You want to build out of concrete... ok. But are you saying you want that concrete exposed? To the interior or the exterior? Both? If both you make a sandwich. It isn't that hard. Pour one wall, add XPS or spray closed cell, that's used as the exterior wall formwork. Depending if its a heated or cooled environment, the exterior wall will likely be thinner as its only a facade. You want it thinner? Most developers would too, so that's why they use cladding products like Equitone, etc. Create a rainscreen of sorts. Look at typical house foundation details and options too.
Google "Structural Insulated Panel" or SIP and look for concrete or cementitious variants.
https://www.subtilitas.site/po...
Patrick Gartmann - House in Chur, 2003. Designed and built by the architect-engineer for his family, a special mix of high performance “insulated” concrete was created with recycled glass aggregate and a clay-like cement. The resulting structure is a monolithic, single layer concrete pour for all of the walls and floors that does not require additional cavities for soft insulation to keep the home warm in colder months.The finish is also unique for a concrete structures, somewhat rougher and more adobe in its tactility
https://liapor.ch/chfr/telecha...
it's waaaaaaay simpler than anybody thought here...the insulation is the concrete.
This happens when countries don't have crooked lobbyists protecting their old and failing industries from innovation and/or competition.
What's the r-value per inch? I don't read French and can't view broken links.
I don't think LWC with a high insulation value is a new invention, but in the US it is likely more expensive than normal weight concrete
the broken link came in the article, that's why you looked at the swiss website. R = 0.4375 x inch, 5.5 times better than normal concrete. only good for climate zones 1 & 2 in normal 8" thickness
That's am improvement. It would be nice to use with ci.
A couple of ideas to consider:
https://www.theperfectblock.co... is an ICCF--like an ICF block but with recycled EPS foam, a cement additive that improves durability, and an integral web design that results in a concrete grid in the wall rather than a full concrete wall. The interior and exterior need to be finished with something but the embodied carbon level of the assembly is much lower than with a CIP concrete--foam--CIP sandwich.
https://www.comfortblock.com/ is a concrete block using reduced-GWP , insulating concrete with EPS cores. The blocks are dimensionally precise and are glued together, not mortared. I know the owner/inventor and have seen the results of modeling from Building Science Corp that shows an effective R-30, which is pretty amazing for that type of product.