I'm doing some market research on the behalf of a door manufacturer that is trying to understand how they should think about the market. I'm having a really hard time getting some perspective on the large format/oversized door trend -- can anyone give me any insight on how much of the market is going into the oversized category?
JLC-1
Mar 6, 24 1:24 pm
oversized is often overpriced, look at unnecessarily big houses and hotels - I don't know what share of the market it is, can't be a lot more than 2 or 3%. Same applies to windows.
Non Sequitur
Mar 6, 24 1:31 pm
define oversized.
typical commercial doors are now 965mm wide in my area. Vendors keep telling us it's too expensive, too long wait, etc... we point to the specs on the tender docs and tell them to kick rocks.
We do many odd size doors in residential but they are always custom and can cost tens of thousands each
kaifsyed
Mar 6, 24 1:35 pm
I think by oversized I'm thinking above 82 inches in height (like 84 and 86 or above), and/or above 32 inches in width (like 36 inches). I really appreciate the feedback
Non Sequitur
Mar 6, 24 3:20 pm
42"x96" is the largest door I have designed so far. I think the door alone was 25k... 80k total for the glass and frame around it.
Chad Miller
Mar 6, 24 1:40 pm
Depends on the project.
Fire / Emergency - all the time - not just sectional overhead
Other commercial outside of industrial - never.
K-12 education - all the time - not just sectional overhead
Industrial - all the time - typically overhead
Other commercial - never.
kaifsyed
Mar 6, 24 1:44 pm
I should also clarify I am primarily thinking of entry/exterior doors! Apologize for any confusion!
Chad Miller
Mar 6, 24 2:06 pm
My answer is still the same.
kaifsyed
Mar 6, 24 1:54 pm
Also if there are thoughts on modifying that definition of oversized (say, for commercial, which may be only considered oversized above 36 inches), please share. I'm trying to get smart on this
kaifsyed
Mar 6, 24 2:17 pm
Also, if you guys line of sight on the configurations being used, any thoughts on that would be helpful too!
whistler
Mar 6, 24 2:55 pm
We have done a few oversized sliders ( improve connection from inside to outside).... 24'- 28'. 3 pc or 4 pc sliders are expensive but the structural gymnastics to support the door and keep it working within the tolerances is often more expensive
proto
Mar 6, 24 6:34 pm
We've done oversized sliders and offset pivots.
For a definition of oversized, I'd start with anything that isn't a "standard size". That will change with door type too.
I'd guess the most common commercial door in a US situation is a 3'-0"x7'-0" swing or its pair partner 6'-0"x7'-0".
gwharton
Mar 7, 24 11:39 am
Standard USA door sizes are in 2" increments according to leaf width, from 24" up to 36", with two standard head heights: 6'-8" and 8'-0". 7'-0" heads are generally non-standard. 34" leaf width is standard for ADA doors, with 36" being better. A "large format" door in the US would be anything bigger than any of those parameters.
gwharton
Mar 7, 24 11:40 am
I should add to this that larger standard doors are created by combining two of the same single-leaf standard doors. So there are lots of 60" and 72" wide double doors being used out there.
Chad Miller
Mar 7, 24 11:52 am
7'-0" tall doors are indeed standard in the US.
proto
Mar 7, 24 12:39 pm
I've seen far fewer 8' in the last 10yrs & way more 7' but i'm but one pov. Certainly a lot of 6'-8" too.
I'd go as tall as I could get away with if there's budget & client enthusiasm
Chad Miller
Mar 7, 24 12:56 pm
I do almost all commercial work and our doors have all been 7'-0" height for the past 20 years. The limited residential I've worked on have been 6'-8" height. I've never done a 8'-0" door.
gwharton
Mar 7, 24 1:24 pm
7'-0" doors in my area are not standard, have longer lead times, and are typically a 35% upcharge from 6'-8".
Chad Miller
Mar 7, 24 1:57 pm
Interesting. I've never encountered that. Then again I've only practiced around northern MN and western CO. The cost between 6'-8" and 7'-0" doors in my area is maybe 2%. The cost of an 8'-0" door is about 30% higher and has longer lead times.
gwharton
Mar 7, 24 2:07 pm
8'-0" doors have shorter lead times than 7'-0" in my local experience. The 8'-0" doors are about the same cost. This is all for residential, single- and multi-family. I actually wish 7'-0" doors were more widely available and not price prohibitive, since it would open up some options for us on build-outs. Commercial doors tend to all be 8'-0" on the projects I've done. 6'-8" doors are in stock everywhere and the most cost-effective.
Chad Miller
Mar 7, 24 2:13 pm
This is very odd. Our GC's are telling us the opposite. Most of our doors are HM or AL framed though.
Wood Guy
Mar 6, 24 6:49 pm
I do modest-to-moderately high-end residential design in the northeast US. Most of my clients want big, Nana-wall type doors; few can afford them. I have a house under construction now with a 9'h x 14'w slider, and recently did an 8'h pocket slider with a 14' clear opening. But those are rare. Many clients want 42" to 48" wide, 84"h exterior doors. Occasionally a client wants a double entry door.
kaifsyed
Mar 7, 24 9:27 am
All of these comments have been very helpful. Does 2-3% figure mentioned earlier for residential make sense to you the rest of you?
Wood Guy
Mar 7, 24 10:02 am
2-3% of what? Doors on a project? Projects with one oversized door? Total doors spec'd in our practices?
What is your target demographic?
kaifsyed
Mar 7, 24 11:33 am
I think just in terms of either what you have seen over the last few years in terms of project volume, thoughts on US single family residential overall -- or anything from wherever you are located, whatever you are seeing
proto
Mar 7, 24 12:42 pm
Very low single percentage pts in my modest practice. Some folks here are doing much higher end work and may see more for sure.
Wood Guy
Mar 7, 24 1:19 pm
In the last 5 years I have probably specified 150-200 exterior doors, with 15-20 of them being larger than standard. I have probably spec'd 2,000-3,000 interior doors with 15-20 of them being larger than standard.
kaifsyed
Mar 7, 24 3:47 pm
Thank you that is very helpful!
JLC-1
Mar 7, 24 3:12 pm
from the comments you can see regional differences that will affect your market outlook, it's best to focus on your geographic area and aim for a specific market segment.
I'm doing some market research on the behalf of a door manufacturer that is trying to understand how they should think about the market. I'm having a really hard time getting some perspective on the large format/oversized door trend -- can anyone give me any insight on how much of the market is going into the oversized category?
oversized is often overpriced, look at unnecessarily big houses and hotels - I don't know what share of the market it is, can't be a lot more than 2 or 3%. Same applies to windows.
define oversized.
typical commercial doors are now 965mm wide in my area. Vendors keep telling us it's too expensive, too long wait, etc... we point to the specs on the tender docs and tell them to kick rocks.
We do many odd size doors in residential but they are always custom and can cost tens of thousands each
I think by oversized I'm thinking above 82 inches in height (like 84 and 86 or above), and/or above 32 inches in width (like 36 inches). I really appreciate the feedback
42"x96" is the largest door I have designed so far. I think the door alone was 25k... 80k total for the glass and frame around it.
Depends on the project.
Fire / Emergency - all the time - not just sectional overhead
Other commercial outside of industrial - never.
K-12 education - all the time - not just sectional overhead
Industrial - all the time - typically overhead
Other commercial - never.
I should also clarify I am primarily thinking of entry/exterior doors! Apologize for any confusion!
My answer is still the same.
Also if there are thoughts on modifying that definition of oversized (say, for commercial, which may be only considered oversized above 36 inches), please share. I'm trying to get smart on this
Also, if you guys line of sight on the configurations being used, any thoughts on that would be helpful too!
We have done a few oversized sliders ( improve connection from inside to outside).... 24'- 28'. 3 pc or 4 pc sliders are expensive but the structural gymnastics to support the door and keep it working within the tolerances is often more expensive
We've done oversized sliders and offset pivots.
For a definition of oversized, I'd start with anything that isn't a "standard size". That will change with door type too.
I'd guess the most common commercial door in a US situation is a 3'-0"x7'-0" swing or its pair partner 6'-0"x7'-0".
Standard USA door sizes are in 2" increments according to leaf width, from 24" up to 36", with two standard head heights: 6'-8" and 8'-0". 7'-0" heads are generally non-standard. 34" leaf width is standard for ADA doors, with 36" being better. A "large format" door in the US would be anything bigger than any of those parameters.
I should add to this that larger standard doors are created by combining two of the same single-leaf standard doors. So there are lots of 60" and 72" wide double doors being used out there.
7'-0" tall doors are indeed standard in the US.
I've seen far fewer 8' in the last 10yrs & way more 7' but i'm but one pov. Certainly a lot of 6'-8" too.
I'd go as tall as I could get away with if there's budget & client enthusiasm
I do almost all commercial work and our doors have all been 7'-0" height for the past 20 years. The limited residential I've worked on have been 6'-8" height. I've never done a 8'-0" door.
7'-0" doors in my area are not standard, have longer lead times, and are typically a 35% upcharge from 6'-8".
Interesting. I've never encountered that. Then again I've only practiced around northern MN and western CO. The cost between 6'-8" and 7'-0" doors in my area is maybe 2%. The cost of an 8'-0" door is about 30% higher and has longer lead times.
8'-0" doors have shorter lead times than 7'-0" in my local experience. The 8'-0" doors are about the same cost. This is all for residential, single- and multi-family. I actually wish 7'-0" doors were more widely available and not price prohibitive, since it would open up some options for us on build-outs. Commercial doors tend to all be 8'-0" on the projects I've done. 6'-8" doors are in stock everywhere and the most cost-effective.
This is very odd. Our GC's are telling us the opposite. Most of our doors are HM or AL framed though.
I do modest-to-moderately high-end residential design in the northeast US. Most of my clients want big, Nana-wall type doors; few can afford them. I have a house under construction now with a 9'h x 14'w slider, and recently did an 8'h pocket slider with a 14' clear opening. But those are rare. Many clients want 42" to 48" wide, 84"h exterior doors. Occasionally a client wants a double entry door.
All of these comments have been very helpful. Does 2-3% figure mentioned earlier for residential make sense to you the rest of you?
2-3% of what? Doors on a project? Projects with one oversized door? Total doors spec'd in our practices?
What is your target demographic?
I think just in terms of either what you have seen over the last few years in terms of project volume, thoughts on US single family residential overall -- or anything from wherever you are located, whatever you are seeing
Very low single percentage pts in my modest practice. Some folks here are doing much higher end work and may see more for sure.
In the last 5 years I have probably specified 150-200 exterior doors, with 15-20 of them being larger than standard. I have probably spec'd 2,000-3,000 interior doors with 15-20 of them being larger than standard.
Thank you that is very helpful!
from the comments you can see regional differences that will affect your market outlook, it's best to focus on your geographic area and aim for a specific market segment.