I have been recently dreaming up a career path in design-build as an answer to the often underpaid and overworked life of the design professional. I am still under 10 years in the post-graduate life and worked a few years in a traditional design firm and now working in project management on GC side. Currently, we are working on a federally funded instutional-ish passive house project. Due to the nature of the project and our outfit, we have not been fighting with the architect to dilute the design in order to save on costs. In fact, partly because passive house necessarily requires more coordination between builder and designer, there probably has been more co-operation that than a typical project, and it feels refreshing.
I enjoy construction management as an arena where design meets reality, and I certainly enjoy the fact that we charge around 3x or more the fees of a design firm per the argument that the GC takes on more risk. But I do miss design. I feel that a project that is designed and managed by the same party can infer many advantages. The risk being that one leaky roof will sink your outfit just like that.
So here's my pitch in point form, this is probably nothing out of the ordinary for a design-build but I wanted to get folks' thoughts on it:
Step 1.0 Assume the fees for both design and construction management (but take on the risk for both and don't mess up)
Step 1.1 Experienced backed budget conversations from day 1 of design
Step 1.2 Design team manages construction of project once design is complete, team must have competency in both, project is designed for both constructability and costs in mind from day 1
Step 1.3 Team is necessarily small and works on smaller projects
Step 1.4 Focus on passive house or other typologies that necessitates greater coordination between design and construction
Step 1.5 Don't forget one's design training and make places that are actually nice and livable
Step 2. ???
Step 3. Profit
msparchitect
Aug 11, 23 3:51 pm
Yeah, there are plenty of firms that do that. Check out GLUCK+ as an example. Those firms can make pretty good profit, but only on the construction side. And sometimes that's why they do it. Also to cut out the b.s. arguments of whats in the drawings and just get things built. You have to have buy-in from a client though. Most clients will be weary of handing over what they perceive as too much control to one entity.
But that's when you combine architect, developer, and contractor. Check out DDG. Though you have to be careful not to let the architecture side get carried away. DDG in particular has had a lot of financial difficulties the past few years after getting a bit too carried away on their latest large project.
monosierra
Aug 11, 23 4:24 pm
DDG, Alloy, Portman, OJT, Gluck+, Jonathan Segal, Primary, SCDA ...
greenlander1
Aug 12, 23 2:19 am
Totally doable and you kill off a lot of coordination issues.
One great example where design and profit can coexist. That said Noah is very gifted.
His office also has what is probably the best looking staff in Los Angeles.
haruki
Aug 14, 23 1:43 pm
There is also Marmol Radziner in Los Angeles who do design build. Interestingly if you showed me one of Marmol Radziner's houses and one of Noah Walker's without telling me which office produced it I wouldn't be able to say. I suppose rich people in LA to a large extent all want the same thing.
greenlander1
Aug 18, 23 3:01 pm
Yeh Noah was at Marmol I believe. His work is a lot better IMO
haruki
Aug 19, 23 2:05 pm
Yes you might be right about that. Also Noah seems to be a lot more humble than Ron and Leo which is refreshing.
vado retro
Aug 12, 23 9:14 am
Read Architect as Developer by James Petty.
James Petty
Aug 12, 23 8:46 pm
thnx
Wood Guy
Aug 14, 23 10:12 am
I didn't realize you were the same James Petty. Great book.
toastwaffle
Aug 13, 23 2:25 pm
Thanks guys! This is all very good food for thought. I ordered a copy of that book!
haruki
Aug 19, 23 2:07 pm
I also ordered a copy! The John Portman quote in the introduction is fantastic. "In order to get people to employ you, and entrust into you to spend millions of dollars, if it's a major project, they have to love you. I couldn't find many people that loved me that much. That frustration let me to become an architect as developer." - John Portman
luvu
Aug 21, 23 1:15 am
Regardless of business model , with the rising : unpredictable material cost/shortage ( at least in my region) …it’s vey vey tough for out there for small or big builders.
Richard Balkins
Aug 24, 23 1:16 pm
renasmith, thanks for the obvious but it is not necessarily accurate entirely. First, a contractor isn't necessarily a person but may be a business. One must understand that the license is issued to the business in some states. The business may be one and the same as the person such as a sole proprietorship. However, if the business is other than a sole proprietorship, the license is attached to the business when the business shows proof of commercial general liability insurance coverage for construction and surety bond and possesses at least one "qualified" person who passes the contractor licensing examination who is in responsible charge over construction contracting services.
An architect's license is attached to the person. Some states do also have a separate registration/license for the business to be registered such as Oregon. A business that offers architectural services for architectural projects in Oregon shall be registered with the state licensing board as an "architectural firm" but the architect who also is in charge of the firm's architectural services shall be individually licensed. Some states have similar, but not necessarily the same, requirements.
Depending on the state, the business entity can provide both architectural and construction services. The person in charge of the construction services of a firm does not have to be the same as the person who is in charge of architectural services. It can be separate individuals.
Ultimately, Design-Build is a contractual arrangement & project delivery method. Design-Build doesn't even have to be one integrated business entity that offers and performs both pre-construction (planning & design) and construction services, either. There are variations in design-build.
Non Sequitur
Aug 24, 23 1:23 pm
You're replying to a spambot.
Chad Miller
Aug 24, 23 1:52 pm
That gives me an idea . . .
Richard Balkins
Aug 24, 23 2:13 pm
N.S., it is still for the sake of future individuals even architecture students new in architecture school, that there is some educational or informative value of the post I made for those individuals to wrap their hands around this at a very introductory level. The response I made is therefore not for the spam bot.
There are more comprehensive and much more detailed written resources on this subject which I do recommend people to at least study.
Hello!
I have been recently dreaming up a career path in design-build as an answer to the often underpaid and overworked life of the design professional. I am still under 10 years in the post-graduate life and worked a few years in a traditional design firm and now working in project management on GC side. Currently, we are working on a federally funded instutional-ish passive house project. Due to the nature of the project and our outfit, we have not been fighting with the architect to dilute the design in order to save on costs. In fact, partly because passive house necessarily requires more coordination between builder and designer, there probably has been more co-operation that than a typical project, and it feels refreshing.
I enjoy construction management as an arena where design meets reality, and I certainly enjoy the fact that we charge around 3x or more the fees of a design firm per the argument that the GC takes on more risk. But I do miss design. I feel that a project that is designed and managed by the same party can infer many advantages. The risk being that one leaky roof will sink your outfit just like that.
So here's my pitch in point form, this is probably nothing out of the ordinary for a design-build but I wanted to get folks' thoughts on it:
Step 1.0 Assume the fees for both design and construction management (but take on the risk for both and don't mess up)
Step 1.1 Experienced backed budget conversations from day 1 of design
Step 1.2 Design team manages construction of project once design is complete, team must have competency in both, project is designed for both constructability and costs in mind from day 1
Step 1.3 Team is necessarily small and works on smaller projects
Step 1.4 Focus on passive house or other typologies that necessitates greater coordination between design and construction
Step 1.5 Don't forget one's design training and make places that are actually nice and livable
Step 2. ???
Step 3. Profit
Yeah, there are plenty of firms that do that. Check out GLUCK+ as an example. Those firms can make pretty good profit, but only on the construction side. And sometimes that's why they do it. Also to cut out the b.s. arguments of whats in the drawings and just get things built. You have to have buy-in from a client though. Most clients will be weary of handing over what they perceive as too much control to one entity.
But that's when you combine architect, developer, and contractor. Check out DDG. Though you have to be careful not to let the architecture side get carried away. DDG in particular has had a lot of financial difficulties the past few years after getting a bit too carried away on their latest large project.
DDG, Alloy, Portman, OJT, Gluck+, Jonathan Segal, Primary, SCDA ...
Totally doable and you kill off a lot of coordination issues.
One great example where design and profit can coexist. That said Noah is very gifted.
https://www.walkerworkshop.com...
His office also has what is probably the best looking staff in Los Angeles.
There is also Marmol Radziner in Los Angeles who do design build. Interestingly if you showed me one of Marmol Radziner's houses and one of Noah Walker's without telling me which office produced it I wouldn't be able to say. I suppose rich people in LA to a large extent all want the same thing.
Yeh Noah was at Marmol I believe. His work is a lot better IMO
Yes you might be right about that. Also Noah seems to be a lot more humble than Ron and Leo which is refreshing.
Read Architect as Developer by James Petty.
thnx
I didn't realize you were the same James Petty. Great book.
Thanks guys! This is all very good food for thought. I ordered a copy of that book!
I also ordered a copy! The John Portman quote in the introduction is fantastic. "In order to get people to employ you, and entrust into you to spend millions of dollars, if it's a major project, they have to love you. I couldn't find many people that loved me that much. That frustration let me to become an architect as developer." - John Portman
Regardless of business model , with the rising : unpredictable material cost/shortage ( at least in my region) …it’s vey vey tough for out there for small or big builders.
renasmith, thanks for the obvious but it is not necessarily accurate entirely. First, a contractor isn't necessarily a person but may be a business. One must understand that the license is issued to the business in some states. The business may be one and the same as the person such as a sole proprietorship. However, if the business is other than a sole proprietorship, the license is attached to the business when the business shows proof of commercial general liability insurance coverage for construction and surety bond and possesses at least one "qualified" person who passes the contractor licensing examination who is in responsible charge over construction contracting services.
An architect's license is attached to the person. Some states do also have a separate registration/license for the business to be registered such as Oregon. A business that offers architectural services for architectural projects in Oregon shall be registered with the state licensing board as an "architectural firm" but the architect who also is in charge of the firm's architectural services shall be individually licensed. Some states have similar, but not necessarily the same, requirements.
Depending on the state, the business entity can provide both architectural and construction services. The person in charge of the construction services of a firm does not have to be the same as the person who is in charge of architectural services. It can be separate individuals.
Ultimately, Design-Build is a contractual arrangement & project delivery method. Design-Build doesn't even have to be one integrated business entity that offers and performs both pre-construction (planning & design) and construction services, either. There are variations in design-build.
You're replying to a spambot.
That gives me an idea . . .
N.S., it is still for the sake of future individuals even architecture students new in architecture school, that there is some educational or informative value of the post I made for those individuals to wrap their hands around this at a very introductory level. The response I made is therefore not for the spam bot.
There are more comprehensive and much more detailed written resources on this subject which I do recommend people to at least study.