I am a Landscape Architect running a small practice in the US.
About a month ago a client whom we have a long and bumpy history with called to ask us to put together a set of plans... in less than a week.
I didnt realize the timeline until the end of the zoom call (where I was taking time out of my vacation) and had shared some intial ideas. After the call I followed up to let the client know there would be no way for my office to complete the work in the given timeframe.
Didnt hear anything else...
I asked about the project again a couple days ago and didnt get a response so I went on to the planning boards agenda and pulled the packet to find the project with plans by another LA..OK whatever...
BUT, the second sheet in the plan set which is on the civil engineers titleblock and includes both the other LA's logo and seal is showing our firms details.
They are basic, standard details, but very clearly ours. They are for plantings, paving, and edging for what it's worth.
I was kind of annoyed that:
A. The other LA took the 'shrub it up' job on extremely short notice. This is a bigger discussion. I think it cheapens our value as a profession if we cave to every absurd request and lowball each other.
B. They aped our concept design and clearly copied and pasted our details.
I want to call all parties out on the BS out of principle. But also recognize our time working with the developer is limited (It's been a slight trainwreck for a couple years and I've tried to quit several times). The CE firm has given us 6 figures worth of work, but it is managed by a different group within the firm.
What would you do? Call the BS, ask them to remove our drawings and resubmit? Report to professional licensing board? Cut losses and move on...little of both?
I'm big on respect and integrity and feel this is crossing a line.
archanonymous
Jun 25, 23 6:07 am
I would absolutely report them to the board at the minimum. Probably wouldn't care about burning the client bridge given they sound horrible. If the CE firm is important to you, I'd get a boozy dinner with whoever your contact/ the group leader is and vaguely and carefully explain the situation without too heavily implicating the other firm. Lots of booze will help with plausible deniability.
But first thing, get your business lawyer involved, this is 100% a thing you want guidance on.
reallynotmyname
Jun 26, 23 12:50 pm
The only relationship here with any value is the one with the CE firm.
You need to work to make sure they keep hiring you and not move over to the shitty LA that steals other people's details. There's a very good chance the CE's staff people assembling the drawing set didn't know what was going on regarding where the details came from.
The developer is crap and you would do well in the long-term to walk away from that one. The developer will probably never use you again anyway now that they've met this new person who did what they wanted.
reallynotmyname
Jun 26, 23 12:59 pm
I doubt this developer's selection criteria extends beyond simply who is the fastest and cheapest.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 26, 23 1:07 pm
No offense, and not to be a prude, but your name is immature and off putting.
Chad Miller
Jun 26, 23 1:24 pm
.
x-jla
Jun 27, 23 11:05 am
I don’t get it whats wrong with the name?
Non Sequitur
Jun 27, 23 11:12 am
^was mitch cumstein. Looks like OP changed it.
x-jla
Jun 27, 23 11:21 am
Lol. Oh ok.
Larchstein
Jun 26, 23 9:05 pm
sorry it was an old handle. Chad got it..
x-jla
Jun 27, 23 11:14 am
I have run into similar situations. In one, a different design-build company copied my entire plan and removed the details and language so that their bid for construction would not be tied to the more precise and ridged terms. owner gave them my design, and went with their lower construction bid, then had the nerve to send me their re-draw of my plan and ask me for advice on some things they wanted to add. I was pretty fired up, but decided to let it go. Often smoking a joint or hitting the punching bag is cheaper and healthier than pursuing these things. I understand the principle argument, and I agree 100% with you, just need to weigh the costs and benefits. Sometimes it’s not worth it to pursue, and better to spend that time and money on recreation or future work / business development.
x-jla
Jun 27, 23 11:31 am
But legally speaking, what you describe is most likely a copyright infringement, and an attorney would be able to point you in the right direction if you choose to pursue it. There is probably a criminal offense (licensing boards, copyright law, etc) and also probably a civil offense.
x-jla
Jun 27, 23 11:35 am
Profiting off of copyrighted material above the sum of 2500$ I believe raises the offense to a felony. Could be wrong, but that’s what I remember reading.
Chad Miller
Jun 27, 23 11:39 am
Proving copyright infringement in architectural and landscape architectural cases is very difficult though. You basically have to prove that someone took your CD's and without changing anything other than the title block used them to build something.
reallynotmyname
Jun 27, 23 1:18 pm
The best way forward is to invest your energy in upgrading your clientele base away from the people seeking only quick-and-dirty design services.
Larchstein
Jun 27, 23 8:34 pm
appreciate all the responses. Its kind of therapeutic to come here and get a little unhinged than firing off angry emails and calls…so thanks for that archinect.
i got a measured email out to the group. The ce firm wrote back immediately and basically apologized. The other la followed suit and said theyre not sure theyll be working for the client.. theres a really long story here..perhaps for another time..
The la who works for the developer directly finally wrote back today with some bs excuses. Turns out she actually drafted the plans and evidently copied and pasted our details and it sounds like had the other la seal the sheets.
found out this got submitted and approved by the town.
We have ongoing work with this group. Id lime to simply ghost them at this point. I want nothing to do with them and the money, though we will take a hit, is not worth the headache.
I am a Landscape Architect running a small practice in the US.
About a month ago a client whom we have a long and bumpy history with called to ask us to put together a set of plans... in less than a week.
I didnt realize the timeline until the end of the zoom call (where I was taking time out of my vacation) and had shared some intial ideas. After the call I followed up to let the client know there would be no way for my office to complete the work in the given timeframe.
Didnt hear anything else...
I asked about the project again a couple days ago and didnt get a response so I went on to the planning boards agenda and pulled the packet to find the project with plans by another LA..OK whatever...
BUT, the second sheet in the plan set which is on the civil engineers titleblock and includes both the other LA's logo and seal is showing our firms details.
They are basic, standard details, but very clearly ours. They are for plantings, paving, and edging for what it's worth.
I was kind of annoyed that:
A. The other LA took the 'shrub it up' job on extremely short notice. This is a bigger discussion. I think it cheapens our value as a profession if we cave to every absurd request and lowball each other.
B. They aped our concept design and clearly copied and pasted our details.
I want to call all parties out on the BS out of principle. But also recognize our time working with the developer is limited (It's been a slight trainwreck for a couple years and I've tried to quit several times). The CE firm has given us 6 figures worth of work, but it is managed by a different group within the firm.
What would you do? Call the BS, ask them to remove our drawings and resubmit? Report to professional licensing board? Cut losses and move on...little of both?
I'm big on respect and integrity and feel this is crossing a line.
I would absolutely report them to the board at the minimum. Probably wouldn't care about burning the client bridge given they sound horrible. If the CE firm is important to you, I'd get a boozy dinner with whoever your contact/ the group leader is and vaguely and carefully explain the situation without too heavily implicating the other firm. Lots of booze will help with plausible deniability.
But first thing, get your business lawyer involved, this is 100% a thing you want guidance on.
The only relationship here with any value is the one with the CE firm.
You need to work to make sure they keep hiring you and not move over to the shitty LA that steals other people's details. There's a very good chance the CE's staff people assembling the drawing set didn't know what was going on regarding where the details came from.
The developer is crap and you would do well in the long-term to walk away from that one. The developer will probably never use you again anyway now that they've met this new person who did what they wanted.
I doubt this developer's selection criteria extends beyond simply who is the fastest and cheapest.
No offense, and not to be a prude, but your name is immature and off putting.
.
I don’t get it whats wrong with the name?
^was mitch cumstein. Looks like OP changed it.
Lol. Oh ok.
sorry it was an old handle. Chad got it..
I have run into similar situations. In one, a different design-build company copied my entire plan and removed the details and language so that their bid for construction would not be tied to the more precise and ridged terms. owner gave them my design, and went with their lower construction bid, then had the nerve to send me their re-draw of my plan and ask me for advice on some things they wanted to add. I was pretty fired up, but decided to let it go. Often smoking a joint or hitting the punching bag is cheaper and healthier than pursuing these things. I understand the principle argument, and I agree 100% with you, just need to weigh the costs and benefits. Sometimes it’s not worth it to pursue, and better to spend that time and money on recreation or future work / business development.
But legally speaking, what you describe is most likely a copyright infringement, and an attorney would be able to point you in the right direction if you choose to pursue it. There is probably a criminal offense (licensing boards, copyright law, etc) and also probably a civil offense.
Profiting off of copyrighted material above the sum of 2500$ I believe raises the offense to a felony. Could be wrong, but that’s what I remember reading.
Proving copyright infringement in architectural and landscape architectural cases is very difficult though. You basically have to prove that someone took your CD's and without changing anything other than the title block used them to build something.
The best way forward is to invest your energy in upgrading your clientele base away from the people seeking only quick-and-dirty design services.
appreciate all the responses. Its kind of therapeutic to come here and get a little unhinged than firing off angry emails and calls…so thanks for that archinect.
i got a measured email out to the group. The ce firm wrote back immediately and basically apologized. The other la followed suit and said theyre not sure theyll be working for the client.. theres a really long story here..perhaps for another time..
The la who works for the developer directly finally wrote back today with some bs excuses. Turns out she actually drafted the plans and evidently copied and pasted our details and it sounds like had the other la seal the sheets.
found out this got submitted and approved by the town.
We have ongoing work with this group. Id lime to simply ghost them at this point. I want nothing to do with them and the money, though we will take a hit, is not worth the headache.