What qualifies Oliver Wainwright to be an architecture critic? Self appointed authority. No architect pays attention to his critique. He's only popular with female students.
tduds
Mar 21, 23 5:00 pm
eric is that you?
Chad Miller
Mar 27, 23 10:10 am
Non-ASD is one sad, bitter man suffering on the autistic spectrum.
Kinsbergen
Mar 28, 23 2:53 pm
Chad is an uncouth, unempathetic man who spends his entire day on the internet abusing other people.
Non Sequitur
Mar 28, 23 3:15 pm
Chad, Non-ASD (formally Tyth) is barely a notch above Jawknee. Very low quality experience with a forgettable education. Their only joy comes from stalking others in the forums.
I'm more surprised that a developer approved and paid for this design.
citizen
Mar 19, 23 2:24 pm
Those photos are enough to make the case. The least damning of them:
So the ONE thing this project has going for it is views. But in a frenzy of (what seems like) self-defeat, he flings giant, nonstructural, unnecessary fettucine noodles at the exterior --compromising the building's solitary benefit.
sameolddoctor
Mar 19, 23 2:30 pm
Yes, I think EOMs interiors are always better than the exteriors...the building still sucks though...
midlander
Mar 20, 23 1:09 am
the exterior frame is clearly structural; it's all that's holding this 16ft floor up!
midlander
Mar 20, 23 1:15 am
this building is fascinating, it's a very pure exercise in irrational structure and unprogrammed space.
it's hard to process criticism based on environmental sustainability. artwork always falls outside the framework of standardized criteria. clearly this building has more embedded carbon than necessary to build an equivalent area of typical office space. i don't think we have to worry this building represents a trend towards expensive complicated development - it's really a one off. there will always be a place for projects that exceed the baseline - the question is only whether this qualifies as the kind of extraordinary work that deserves such excess.
t a z
Mar 20, 23 9:31 am
The sustainability argument is a false equivalency because first and foremost it will always be about the money. Any experienced developer will have a target tonnage per sf number they are budgeting for.
Nam Henderson
Apr 18, 23 12:41 am
@midlander so does "fascinating" mean you think it does qualify or not? :P
midlander
Apr 18, 23 8:13 am
yes probably. i haven't seen it in person and these things are more of a social judgment than personal opinion - but i think the purpose is clearly to make an artistic expression not provide a model for responsible use of resources.
bowling_ball
May 10, 23 3:55 pm
Why is that even an option? In my neck of the woods, we must abide by the Energy Code even if we're trying to make "art" or whatever. It can't be either/or. Be better than that.
midlander
May 11, 23 8:48 pm
does your energy code specify embodied energy?
bowling_ball
May 11, 23 11:48 pm
Not yet but it's going there. To give you an idea of how we have to design, we just completed a residential tower (18 storeys) with a wall assembly at Effective R-27. I think in the newer code we're adopting soon, that will go up again, too. Personally I kind of love it as a challenge. It means we're leading the way in North America, in that we've been building these ultra efficient buildings for almost a decade now, and there's very real research that's come out of it. On the other hand, it can be really expensive to build this way, and that's another challenge I'm sure we all deal with
logon'slogin
Mar 20, 23 2:24 pm
As dead as a mummy.
JLC-1
Mar 20, 23 2:52 pm
it's an ugly building in an ugly town built only to stir some pots.
haruki
Mar 24, 23 2:52 pm
I suppose it is mildly interesting that a person such as Moss who presents in such a hyper masculine manner (near Tom of Finland level) and has door knob on the front door of his office in the shape of a veiny penis that anyone entering must pull makes buildings that are so highly decorative.
graphemic
Mar 24, 23 8:34 pm
I dislike the review simply because it affirms EOM's own vision of his buildings' impact on Culver City. Wainright affirms it for the purpose of criticizing it... but it's still dishonest.
Word is that EOM adores this review, as he would anything that builds up his mighty persona. Well written though.
sameolddoctor
Mar 25, 23 12:58 am
Yeah, best would be to not talk about it at all. It is like the Trump phenomenon, EOM being the Trump in this case.
And wandering around EOM-ville is really fun, if only because the alternative is the typical commercial sprawl.
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 27, 23 7:07 am
I like this view the best.
Perhaps he's doing his own Arcosanti?
sameolddoctor
Mar 27, 23 12:38 pm
Acrosanti was designed around sustainability, this is NOT
citizen
Mar 27, 23 7:51 pm
Also, Arcosanti is mostly of concrete
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 28, 23 9:18 pm
Yeah, probably not the correct project.
My thought was more in line with how his work is creating an urban program in Culver City. I'm curious to know if there's some driving program and model for the city.
citizen
Mar 27, 23 7:57 pm
I had to find a higher-res image to figure out if that was actually curtain wall peeking through, or tromp-l'oeil.
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 27, 23 9:41 pm
That's pretty cool.
Non Sequitur
Mar 28, 23 3:16 pm
my assassin's creed parkour gaming side is tingling.
Chad Miller
Mar 28, 23 4:03 pm
You should see a doctor about that Non.
citizen
Mar 28, 23 4:18 pm
I just call mine citizen, jr.
monosierra
Apr 18, 23 9:17 am
On the bright side, how often do you have a patron developer that is willing to indulge in their favored architect's wildest fancies for decades? And it's not like his patrons are just rich hobbyists - they are commercial developers.
Chad Miller
Apr 18, 23 12:12 pm
I've never had a client like that. At most I've had clients who like my design 'style' and tell me they want their building to be like that but with _______.
sameolddoctor
Apr 18, 23 1:12 pm
I think his clients see EOMs work as a wacky billboard for selling culver city real estate. If my suspicion is right, EOM has indeed succeeded
Chad Miller
Apr 18, 23 1:18 pm
I've never followed many architects work, including EOM's. This isn't a disparaging remark against anyone's work, I just don't 'live' architecture anymore.
citizen
Apr 18, 23 1:33 pm
It's true that-- love 'em or hate 'em-- his buildings have turned the Hayden Tract into a more interesting place over the last three decades. We might (and do) wish for better architecture, but even the occasional appearance of so-so experimentation across another low-lying older industrial neighborhood has its benefits.
I feel about (some, not all) wacky designs that "I'm glad someone tried this, even if it failed. Now we know not to do that again." Scale has something to do with it. A huge waste of capital and resources on Fettucine Plaza is a 'no' in my book, but some of his other, smaller projects seem fine-ish to me.
sameolddoctor
Apr 18, 23 1:44 pm
Yes, his other works tend to be on the scale of sculpture, hence probably OK - this one is just a bit to wasteful. (eyesore or not is subjective of course).
In the end it is just another symbol of capitalism regardless of the pseudo intellectual texts EOM may choose to quote. Massive sculpture to help sell real estate. Which is very sad.
graphemic
Apr 18, 23 1:44 pm
I agree that CC has successfully achieved a "wacky" feel due to these (and other!) wacky buildings. But as monosierra says, that's because of the clients. This isn't a story of Architecture doing stuff as buil
dings, it's Real Estate doing stuff as branding. It's depressing, and explains why CC has not just a wacky, but a poorly executed "anything goes" attitude towards design. Petty commodity producers with no taste and no community. Okay, rant over.
graphemic
Apr 18, 23 1:46 pm
It could have easily been any other dude that the client jived with and could churn out silly forms. Dime a dozen and you only need one. Okay now I'm done!
Chad Miller
Apr 18, 23 1:53 pm
Have you ever been chosen to be 'the one' graphemic? Do you actually know anyone who has?
graphemic
Apr 18, 23 2:51 pm
I mean in this scenario being "the one" is a bit of an insult haha. The implication is that "
it" being EOM is arbitrary. Genuine question, what's the relevance? Like I can't say EOM is a dime a dozen because I haven't been in his position?
Chad Miller
Apr 18, 23 2:54 pm
Not at all. I'm just asking if you've ever been chosen to be a client's "one". Good or bad - has a client ever sought out you personally for a project?
I will be honest though - your dime a dozen comment comes off as a bit "thou does protest too much".
graphemic
Apr 18, 23 3:15 pm
Hah, I see. I work in a big office, but short answer for the work we do: yes. I think it really conditions the client-architect relationship in unfortunate ways.
And yes, silly smack talk it is. It's just a totally different story when you include the context of the client and the development of CC (going way back). Just a sad history nerd!
Not sure the "eternal" designation's a winner, Eric.
sameolddoctor
May 10, 23 8:47 pm
This garbage would look much better if it was tagged by all the unhoused people by the creek
archanonymous
May 11, 23 3:32 am
Ignoring all the other bullshit associated with the building, I just can't believe that the projecting stair isn't done in the same formal language and same scale of "ribbon" as the rest of the wrapper.
t a z
Dec 19, 23 4:28 pm
All the dramatic drone footage we didn't know we needed!
gwharton
Dec 19, 23 5:03 pm
Dear sweet baby Jesus, that is horrible. Those hideous concrete frames are already cracking and efflorescing too. Nightmarish.
sameolddoctor
Dec 19, 23 5:24 pm
And to think they are calling it "ecologically sound". Not surprising why these kinds of starchitects have fallen out of favor - they are totally disconnected with reality.
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 19, 23 7:04 pm
I thought the ribbons were steel, and the narrative behind the design is compelling. I understand it's related to wanting to maximize the opening floor plate and seismic issues?
gwharton
Dec 19, 23 7:30 pm
Not even real concrete is probably why they are already cracking so much if the underlying steel structure is expanding and contracting a bit. Too bad expansion joints don't match the "aesthetic". As for exoskeleton buildings, they are a good idea, but they don't have to be ugly like this one.
t a z
Dec 19, 23 7:31 pm
The ribbons are steel with some kind of fireproof coating. There is one close in shot where you can see the finish texture that is definitely not concrete, but the grey color doesn't help.
It looks just like SFRM but I don't think you can use SFRM for an exterior application.
sameolddoctor
Dec 20, 23 12:45 am
Didn't Mies do column-free exoskeleton buildings a bajillion years ago? This garbage building's moniker should be "if you throw enough steel at it, anything will stand"
Janosh
Dec 20, 23 1:55 pm
I'm not sure that exoskeleton buildings are that good of an idea of unless the program requires it. This (R)apper shitshow has a clear span of 60', which is completely unecessary for the office occupancies it is being marketed for and not much different than what one finds in the seventy year old bowstring truss buildings elsewhere in the Hayden tract.
I'm curious what other occupancies Moss thought this would be used for? It only has two stairs and isn't configured in a way that large assembly occupancies could use and has floors served by code minimum size elevators...
sameolddoctor
Dec 20, 23 2:07 pm
All that for only 60' clear span is rather ridiculous. It also clear that this whole puff-piece is to attract some Hollywood PR/Marketing types to what is now an empty shell
J G
Dec 20, 23 2:10 pm
the development plan here is terrible as Jonosh points out about access and circulation. For the size and cost, its actually quite a small floor area. Additionally, I find it humorous that they show a skateboarder cruising by. I've tried to ride my bike through the lot and been loudly accosted by security for trying to enter an empty unfenced Samitaur parking lot...
sameolddoctor
Dec 20, 23 2:22 pm
I do wanna bike down that path one day...
J G
Dec 20, 23 2:11 pm
For those wondering about the business model here - I live nearby and check in the occupancy daily. I have yet to see anyone rent ANY space in this building. Almost a year later and still completely empty... Is this really what architecture should aspire to? Might as well make a metaverse and have that sit empty instead...
gwharton
Dec 20, 23 2:48 pm
The office market in most major metros has imploded since 2020. It's not really coming back except in some limited areas.
‘A gas-guzzling villain’s lair’: welcome to LA’s grotesque new high-rise | Architecture | The Guardian
TLDR: Scathing at best
Too easy.
What qualifies Oliver Wainwright to be an architecture critic? Self appointed authority. No architect pays attention to his critique. He's only popular with female students.
eric is that you?
Non-ASD is one sad, bitter man suffering on the autistic spectrum.
Chad is an uncouth, unempathetic man who spends his entire day on the internet abusing other people.
Chad, Non-ASD (formally Tyth) is barely a notch above Jawknee. Very low quality experience with a forgettable education. Their only joy comes from stalking others in the forums.
I googled Tyth.
https://www.google.com/search?...
I'm more surprised that a developer approved and paid for this design.
Those photos are enough to make the case. The least damning of them:
So the ONE thing this project has going for it is views. But in a frenzy of (what seems like) self-defeat, he flings giant, nonstructural, unnecessary fettucine noodles at the exterior --compromising the building's solitary benefit.
Yes, I think EOMs interiors are always better than the exteriors...the building still sucks though...
the exterior frame is clearly structural; it's all that's holding this 16ft floor up!
this building is fascinating, it's a very pure exercise in irrational structure and unprogrammed space.
it's hard to process criticism based on environmental sustainability. artwork always falls outside the framework of standardized criteria. clearly this building has more embedded carbon than necessary to build an equivalent area of typical office space. i don't think we have to worry this building represents a trend towards expensive complicated development - it's really a one off. there will always be a place for projects that exceed the baseline - the question is only whether this qualifies as the kind of extraordinary work that deserves such excess.
The sustainability argument is a false equivalency because first and foremost it will always be about the money. Any experienced developer will have a target tonnage per sf number they are budgeting for.
@midlander so does "fascinating" mean you think it does qualify or not? :P
yes probably. i haven't seen it in person and these things are more of a social judgment than personal opinion - but i think the purpose is clearly to make an artistic expression not provide a model for responsible use of resources.
Why is that even an option? In my neck of the woods, we must abide by the Energy Code even if we're trying to make "art" or whatever. It can't be either/or. Be better than that.
does your energy code specify embodied energy?
Not yet but it's going there. To give you an idea of how we have to design, we just completed a residential tower (18 storeys) with a wall assembly at Effective R-27. I think in the newer code we're adopting soon, that will go up again, too. Personally I kind of love it as a challenge. It means we're leading the way in North America, in that we've been building these ultra efficient buildings for almost a decade now, and there's very real research that's come out of it. On the other hand, it can be really expensive to build this way, and that's another challenge I'm sure we all deal with
As dead as a mummy.
it's an ugly building in an ugly town built only to stir some pots.
I suppose it is mildly interesting that a person such as Moss who presents in such a hyper masculine manner (near Tom of Finland level) and has door knob on the front door of his office in the shape of a veiny penis that anyone entering must pull makes buildings that are so highly decorative.
I dislike the review simply because it affirms EOM's own vision of his buildings' impact on Culver City. Wainright affirms it for the purpose of criticizing it... but it's still dishonest.
Word is that EOM adores this review, as he would anything that builds up his mighty persona. Well written though.
Yeah, best would be to not talk about it at all. It is like the Trump phenomenon, EOM being the Trump in this case.
I like the floating cacti one - so whimsicle.
eric owen moss architects: cactus tower (designboom.com)
And wandering around EOM-ville is really fun, if only because the alternative is the typical commercial sprawl.
Acrosanti was designed around sustainability, this is NOT
Also, Arcosanti is mostly of concrete
Yeah, probably not the correct project.
My thought was more in line with how his work is creating an urban program in Culver City. I'm curious to know if there's some driving program and model for the city.
I had to find a higher-res image to figure out if that was actually curtain wall peeking through, or tromp-l'oeil.
That's pretty cool.
my assassin's creed parkour gaming side is tingling.
You should see a doctor about that Non.
I just call mine citizen, jr.
On the bright side, how often do you have a patron developer that is willing to indulge in their favored architect's wildest fancies for decades? And it's not like his patrons are just rich hobbyists - they are commercial developers.
I've never had a client like that. At most I've had clients who like my design 'style' and tell me they want their building to be like that but with _______.
I think his clients see EOMs work as a wacky billboard for selling culver city real estate. If my suspicion is right, EOM has indeed succeeded
I've never followed many architects work, including EOM's. This isn't a disparaging remark against anyone's work, I just don't 'live' architecture anymore.
It's true that-- love 'em or hate 'em-- his buildings have turned the Hayden Tract into a more interesting place over the last three decades. We might (and do) wish for better architecture, but even the occasional appearance of so-so experimentation across another low-lying older industrial neighborhood has its benefits.
I feel about (some, not all) wacky designs that "I'm glad someone tried this, even if it failed. Now we know not to do that again." Scale has something to do with it. A huge waste of capital and resources on Fettucine Plaza is a 'no' in my book, but some of his other, smaller projects seem fine-ish to me.
Yes, his other works tend to be on the scale of sculpture, hence probably OK - this one is just a bit to wasteful. (eyesore or not is subjective of course).
In the end it is just another symbol of capitalism regardless of the pseudo intellectual texts EOM may choose to quote. Massive sculpture to help sell real estate. Which is very sad.
I agree that CC has successfully achieved a "wacky" feel due to these (and other!) wacky buildings. But as monosierra says, that's because of the clients. This isn't a story of Architecture doing stuff as buil dings, it's Real Estate doing stuff as branding. It's depressing, and explains why CC has not just a wacky, but a poorly executed "anything goes" attitude towards design. Petty commodity producers with no taste and no community. Okay, rant over.
It could have easily been any other dude that the client jived with and could churn out silly forms. Dime a dozen and you only need one. Okay now I'm done!
Have you ever been chosen to be 'the one' graphemic? Do you actually know anyone who has?
I mean in this scenario being "the one" is a bit of an insult haha. The implication is that " it" being EOM is arbitrary. Genuine question, what's the relevance? Like I can't say EOM is a dime a dozen because I haven't been in his position?
Not at all. I'm just asking if you've ever been chosen to be a client's "one". Good or bad - has a client ever sought out you personally for a project?
I will be honest though - your dime a dozen comment comes off as a bit "thou does protest too much".
Hah, I see. I work in a big office, but short answer for the work we do: yes. I think it really conditions the client-architect relationship in unfortunate ways. And yes, silly smack talk it is. It's just a totally different story when you include the context of the client and the development of CC (going way back). Just a sad history nerd!
Here we go again:
(W)rapper Tower has "eternal" lifecycle says Eric Owen Moss (dezeen.com)
Lot's of new context pics linked at the end.
Not sure the "eternal" designation's a winner, Eric.
This garbage would look much better if it was tagged by all the unhoused people by the creek
Ignoring all the other bullshit associated with the building, I just can't believe that the projecting stair isn't done in the same formal language and same scale of "ribbon" as the rest of the wrapper.
All the dramatic drone footage we didn't know we needed!
Dear sweet baby Jesus, that is horrible. Those hideous concrete frames are already cracking and efflorescing too. Nightmarish.
And to think they are calling it "ecologically sound". Not surprising why these kinds of starchitects have fallen out of favor - they are totally disconnected with reality.
I thought the ribbons were steel, and the narrative behind the design is compelling. I understand it's related to wanting to maximize the opening floor plate and seismic issues?
Not even real concrete is probably why they are already cracking so much if the underlying steel structure is expanding and contracting a bit. Too bad expansion joints don't match the "aesthetic". As for exoskeleton buildings, they are a good idea, but they don't have to be ugly like this one.
The ribbons are steel with some kind of fireproof coating. There is one close in shot where you can see the finish texture that is definitely not concrete, but the grey color doesn't help.
It looks just like SFRM but I don't think you can use SFRM for an exterior application.
Didn't Mies do column-free exoskeleton buildings a bajillion years ago? This garbage building's moniker should be "if you throw enough steel at it, anything will stand"
I'm not sure that exoskeleton buildings are that good of an idea of unless the program requires it. This (R)apper shitshow has a clear span of 60', which is completely unecessary for the office occupancies it is being marketed for and not much different than what one finds in the seventy year old bowstring truss buildings elsewhere in the Hayden tract. I'm curious what other occupancies Moss thought this would be used for? It only has two stairs and isn't configured in a way that large assembly occupancies could use and has floors served by code minimum size elevators...
All that for only 60' clear span is rather ridiculous. It also clear that this whole puff-piece is to attract some Hollywood PR/Marketing types to what is now an empty shell
the development plan here is terrible as Jonosh points out about access and circulation. For the size and cost, its actually quite a small floor area. Additionally, I find it humorous that they show a skateboarder cruising by. I've tried to ride my bike through the lot and been loudly accosted by security for trying to enter an empty unfenced Samitaur parking lot...
I do wanna bike down that path one day...
For those wondering about the business model here - I live nearby and check in the occupancy daily. I have yet to see anyone rent ANY space in this building. Almost a year later and still completely empty... Is this really what architecture should aspire to? Might as well make a metaverse and have that sit empty instead...
The office market in most major metros has imploded since 2020. It's not really coming back except in some limited areas.
Where architecture meets the market