I understand that full funding is a common thing for PHD programs, but is it common with M. Arch programs? I'm asking because everyone I tell that I'm going to grad school makes sure that I know "I shouldn't pay for it". For years I've been preparing myself financially to do grad school. I don't want to go into a ton of debt, but a little is ok for me. I'm just confused because people are making me feel like a fool for paying for school at all. Thoughts?
Non Sequitur
Feb 23, 23 9:07 pm
Define "a little"?
Just remember that there is not architecture degree worth $30,000+ per year regardless of what people tell you about "contacts" and "investment" and other bullshit. Only go if you can reasonably afford the tuition (or pay it back within a reasonably time).
meowpypurrfday
Feb 23, 23 10:44 pm
"A little" is 50k total or less for me.
reallynotmyname
Feb 24, 23 11:17 am
What would the monthly payment be on $50k? If it's a reasonable fraction of your expected salary as a low-mid level architect, then maybe that's ok.
Chad Miller
Feb 24, 23 11:54 am
The average payment for $50k of student loan debt it $300 a month for around 15 years.
The average pay for a fresh grad in the US is around $45k a year. It will be more if your in a large metro area however you cost of living will be very high.
natematt
Feb 24, 23 1:03 pm
@Chad Miller
More like 500/month at current interest rates. That's also assuming you do a 15 year repayment, but most federal loans standard repayment is 10, so it would be even more per month.
natematt
Feb 24, 23 1:07 pm
The old anecdote was don't take out student dealt more than what you will make your first year in the profession. I think it's a fairly apt rule of thumb for architecture. If you have a total of 50k debt, you can manage it assuming you get in at a reasonable job.... but is it ideal? Hell no.
Non Sequitur
Feb 24, 23 1:15 pm
My view was pay it back over the same lenght as the degree(s)...
Chad Miller
Mar 6, 23 10:00 am
natematt wrote:
"More like 500/month at current interest rates. That's also assuming you do a 15 year repayment, but most federal loans standard repayment is 10, so it would be even more per month. "
Very true. The $300 a month is assuming you have good credit and the loans are federally subsidized with an interest rate of 4.99%.
newguy
Feb 24, 23 3:29 pm
As someone who went to grad school during the '08 recession and took out what would amount to ~2 years starting salary, I would strongly recommend taking a look at the math. I have my current role/job thanks to going to grad school, but paying off those loans at an aggressive accelerated repayment plan was.....not fun. Tuition prices have continued to skyrocket since then, as well.
You also need to consider that you are accumulating debt during some of your prime income earning years, which has a compounding effect downstream. I'd suggest getting a google spreadsheet with amortization values (you can find these online for free) and plugging in some numbers to see your repayment plan with interest and expected salaries. Really dive into it and make an informed decision.
It's an intensely personal decision, but the financial burden is quantifiable, so you owe it to yourself to investigate it as best you can
tduds
Feb 24, 23 3:36 pm
Masters and PhD programs in other disciplines are almost always research-focused, for which a stipend and/or scholarship are expected. This isn't true of MArch programs, which is why they don't typically offer the same kinds of financial aid.
The people telling you not to pay for grad school are simply unaware of the differences between Architectural and other degrees.
Whether or not the expense is worth it is, as others have said, a personal decision. But don't feel like you're doing it wrong by paying money. Almost everyone pays something.
meowpypurrfday
Feb 25, 23 5:24 pm
Thank you for your response. I feel like everyone was interpreting this question as "how much debt should I be willing to go into", but the question was actually "Is everyone else out here getting huge scholarships and I'm just not competitive enough to get one?".
reallynotmyname
Feb 26, 23 10:18 am
I don't know that there is a blanket, general answer for that. I think its going to vary on a school by school basis. Some places have the money to provide generous scholarships, while others can't or choose not to and will pile on the loans. Even if you have free tuition, studying in an expensive city can lead to punishing living expenses.
graphemic
Feb 25, 23 7:53 pm
They are possible, but extremely rare. I had all my tuition covered for my MArch, applied for/got more scholarships every year, worked part time, and still took out about $50K in loans. Why? Living expenses. I don't know why this isn't discussed more, debt is unavoidable unless you have outside support.
Whether it's worth it? I love my job, and I'm not sure what other paths really exist out there that don't grind you down in one way or another. It's how the US works.
zonker
Feb 26, 23 6:22 pm
meowpypurrfday
I did know someone who was fully funded for M.Arch - she was a commander US Navy Seabeas - serious strings attached -
aloogobi
Feb 26, 23 8:07 pm
there are lots of schools that offer full tuition scholarships (umich, columbia, washu), some schools that offer university-wide fellowships that cover tuition and provide a generous stipend for living (e.g. washu, utexas, uiuc), some schools that offer graduate assistantships which provide a stipend to cover cost of living and remits tuition (e.g. georgia tech, virginia tech), 5 year undergrad programs that cover full cost of attendance (e.g. howard) - of course they're competitive but it's definitely possible, you just have to do your research :) and i'm international so these are options that don't have a nationality clause, i can only imagine the multitude of other opportunities available for americans!
Zclpppp
Mar 3, 23 2:11 am
The estimate cost of my 2 year's study in Ann Arbour(U of Mich) is 160k. I think there will be more than this number. I am thinking if I use that money to buy a condo then it will have a 800 net income every month, and I can give this condo to my daughter when she grow up.
Also IIT's scholarship is half of the tuition, I think that might be more doable.
natematt
Mar 3, 23 12:30 pm
Nice of them to estimate your entire living expenses and not just tuition. Geeuzs though. Yeah don't go to a school with no scholarships unless it's really cheap.
newguy
Mar 3, 23 12:51 pm
160k for a public institution is obscene. Genuinely revolting
sameolddoctor
Mar 3, 23 12:52 pm
Where can you buy a condo for 160k, that is great. And yes, 80k per year is way too much to spend on an architectural education at any institute...
Zclpppp
Mar 3, 23 1:04 pm
I am happy that this 80k expense/y can bring me back to the reality.
natematt
Mar 3, 23 2:44 pm
@newguy, I think there might be a discussion there about the nature of state institutions and out of state candidates. If money is a pressing issue, you're sort of unwise to go to any state institution that is not in your state. but isn't that kindof the point?
newguy
Mar 7, 23 1:17 pm
@natematt. Agreed. But it really is ridiculous, because grad school in particular is a major offender on relying on out-of-state tuition. Which is nuts, because grad-school educations are so highly specialized that many candidates have few options for their field of study within their own state. It's insanely predatory.
It is, however, from a policy standpoint, a very effective way of disciplining the highly educated labor pool and keeping them just as dependent on maintaining good standing with their employers just like the rest of the working class.
Gregory Walker
Mar 5, 23 3:09 pm
man, there are so many things to untangle here.
definitely, 1000%, racking up 150k+ in debt isn't worth it in this profession. (and, i'm auburn/harvard and sending 2 kids to public uni's so i've seen both sides).
every public college/uni in the US - and i mean every single one of them - is addicted to out of state/foreign tuition fees. they can't survive without them. so, at least here, they go out of their way to make it almost impossible to get in-state tuition unless you've lived in the state for 2 years, being full time employed (50 out of 52 weeks minimum and self employment doesn't count, owning a property doesn't count, etc).
to just state the obvious: it's the definition of insanity.
that said, almost every school does offer a few positions each year that are a full ride. we had an employee in our office who got that deal from U. Michigan and one who just started at Princeton on a full ride. it is possible. hunt them down and ask.
and then if you need to get the masters, go to the best school where you have state residency. or (if you attended a 4 year institution), look into the option of getting a 5th year BArch from a school. KSU here offers that to 4 year majors (or did).
good luck - i feel for this generation.
h0wl
Mar 6, 23 9:11 am
I got a design job at an ideal design-award-winning local/regional firm fresh out of grad school WITH THE SAME PORTFOLIO I HAD FROM UNDERGRAD. The connections and few extra projects of graduate studios and systems classes were generally worth it, but also not life changing. The main thing I learned is how to leverage networking into a job or opportunity, and how to conduct your own research inquiries that could potentially lead into teaching. If you can learn how to write studio briefs for yourself, or find some online - you can run your own self-initiated design projects without an official studio class and critique, and have an equally valid looking portfolio.
I will note that although the portfolio thing may have been a fluke, going to grad school (affordably) allowed me to seemingly 'shift gears' from working in a more technical focused, gritty/construction focused office (a blessing in disguise) to a more capital-A 'studio' environment with a handful of impactful projects. That cost me $50k loans for living expenses and my salary move was almost completely lateral (making very slightly more than I was before) in that timespan of 2 years, despite new skills learned and new projects done.
natematt
Mar 6, 23 1:57 pm
The fact that plenty of people only do 3 years of architecture school with first professional master's programs should be a solid indicator as to the value of an additional degree. I'm not going to say their isn't a value in the added skills, or the connections, but getting into the professional also gives you those, and a much wider range of other skills.
The real and critical value of any architecture degree in my eyes is having a professional degree you can get licenced with, even if you don't intend to get licenced it's essentially a terminal degree as it relates to the profession.
So, my recommendation is take the cheapest route to professional degree you can. And if it's not cheap enough for you to pay the bills, don't go into architecture. And that's not because you're stupid, or bad at architecture, it's because our education system is busted, and architecture isn't worth a lifetime of debt.
I understand that full funding is a common thing for PHD programs, but is it common with M. Arch programs? I'm asking because everyone I tell that I'm going to grad school makes sure that I know "I shouldn't pay for it". For years I've been preparing myself financially to do grad school. I don't want to go into a ton of debt, but a little is ok for me. I'm just confused because people are making me feel like a fool for paying for school at all. Thoughts?
Define "a little"?
Just remember that there is not architecture degree worth $30,000+ per year regardless of what people tell you about "contacts" and "investment" and other bullshit. Only go if you can reasonably afford the tuition (or pay it back within a reasonably time).
"A little" is 50k total or less for me.
What would the monthly payment be on $50k? If it's a reasonable fraction of your expected salary as a low-mid level architect, then maybe that's ok.
The average payment for $50k of student loan debt it $300 a month for around 15 years.
The average pay for a fresh grad in the US is around $45k a year. It will be more if your in a large metro area however you cost of living will be very high.
@Chad Miller
More like 500/month at current interest rates. That's also assuming you do a 15 year repayment, but most federal loans standard repayment is 10, so it would be even more per month.
The old anecdote was don't take out student dealt more than what you will make your first year in the profession. I think it's a fairly apt rule of thumb for architecture. If you have a total of 50k debt, you can manage it assuming you get in at a reasonable job.... but is it ideal? Hell no.
My view was pay it back over the same lenght as the degree(s)...
natematt wrote:
"More like 500/month at current interest rates. That's also assuming you do a 15 year repayment, but most federal loans standard repayment is 10, so it would be even more per month. "
Very true. The $300 a month is assuming you have good credit and the loans are federally subsidized with an interest rate of 4.99%.
As someone who went to grad school during the '08 recession and took out what would amount to ~2 years starting salary, I would strongly recommend taking a look at the math. I have my current role/job thanks to going to grad school, but paying off those loans at an aggressive accelerated repayment plan was.....not fun. Tuition prices have continued to skyrocket since then, as well.
You also need to consider that you are accumulating debt during some of your prime income earning years, which has a compounding effect downstream. I'd suggest getting a google spreadsheet with amortization values (you can find these online for free) and plugging in some numbers to see your repayment plan with interest and expected salaries. Really dive into it and make an informed decision.
It's an intensely personal decision, but the financial burden is quantifiable, so you owe it to yourself to investigate it as best you can
Masters and PhD programs in other disciplines are almost always research-focused, for which a stipend and/or scholarship are expected. This isn't true of MArch programs, which is why they don't typically offer the same kinds of financial aid.
The people telling you not to pay for grad school are simply unaware of the differences between Architectural and other degrees.
Whether or not the expense is worth it is, as others have said, a personal decision. But don't feel like you're doing it wrong by paying money. Almost everyone pays something.
Thank you for your response. I feel like everyone was interpreting this question as "how much debt should I be willing to go into", but the question was actually "Is everyone else out here getting huge scholarships and I'm just not competitive enough to get one?".
I don't know that there is a blanket, general answer for that. I think its going to vary on a school by school basis. Some places have the money to provide generous scholarships, while others can't or choose not to and will pile on the loans. Even if you have free tuition, studying in an expensive city can lead to punishing living expenses.
They are possible, but extremely rare. I had all my tuition covered for my MArch, applied for/got more scholarships every year, worked part time, and still took out about $50K in loans. Why? Living expenses. I don't know why this isn't discussed more, debt is unavoidable unless you have outside support.
Whether it's worth it? I love my job, and I'm not sure what other paths really exist out there that don't grind you down in one way or another. It's how the US works.
meowpypurrfday
I did know someone who was fully funded for M.Arch - she was a commander US Navy Seabeas - serious strings attached -
there are lots of schools that offer full tuition scholarships (umich, columbia, washu), some schools that offer university-wide fellowships that cover tuition and provide a generous stipend for living (e.g. washu, utexas, uiuc), some schools that offer graduate assistantships which provide a stipend to cover cost of living and remits tuition (e.g. georgia tech, virginia tech), 5 year undergrad programs that cover full cost of attendance (e.g. howard) - of course they're competitive but it's definitely possible, you just have to do your research :) and i'm international so these are options that don't have a nationality clause, i can only imagine the multitude of other opportunities available for americans!
The estimate cost of my 2 year's study in Ann Arbour(U of Mich) is 160k. I think there will be more than this number. I am thinking if I use that money to buy a condo then it will have a 800 net income every month, and I can give this condo to my daughter when she grow up.
Also IIT's scholarship is half of the tuition, I think that might be more doable.
Nice of them to estimate your entire living expenses and not just tuition. Geeuzs though. Yeah don't go to a school with no scholarships unless it's really cheap.
160k for a public institution is obscene. Genuinely revolting
Where can you buy a condo for 160k, that is great. And yes, 80k per year is way too much to spend on an architectural education at any institute...
I am happy that this 80k expense/y can bring me back to the reality.
@newguy, I think there might be a discussion there about the nature of state institutions and out of state candidates. If money is a pressing issue, you're sort of unwise to go to any state institution that is not in your state. but isn't that kindof the point?
@natematt. Agreed. But it really is ridiculous, because grad school in particular is a major offender on relying on out-of-state tuition. Which is nuts, because grad-school educations are so highly specialized that many candidates have few options for their field of study within their own state. It's insanely predatory.
It is, however, from a policy standpoint, a very effective way of disciplining the highly educated labor pool and keeping them just as dependent on maintaining good standing with their employers just like the rest of the working class.
man, there are so many things to untangle here.
definitely, 1000%, racking up 150k+ in debt isn't worth it in this profession. (and, i'm auburn/harvard and sending 2 kids to public uni's so i've seen both sides).
every public college/uni in the US - and i mean every single one of them - is addicted to out of state/foreign tuition fees. they can't survive without them. so, at least here, they go out of their way to make it almost impossible to get in-state tuition unless you've lived in the state for 2 years, being full time employed (50 out of 52 weeks minimum and self employment doesn't count, owning a property doesn't count, etc).
to just state the obvious: it's the definition of insanity.
that said, almost every school does offer a few positions each year that are a full ride. we had an employee in our office who got that deal from U. Michigan and one who just started at Princeton on a full ride. it is possible. hunt them down and ask.
and then if you need to get the masters, go to the best school where you have state residency. or (if you attended a 4 year institution), look into the option of getting a 5th year BArch from a school. KSU here offers that to 4 year majors (or did).
good luck - i feel for this generation.
I got a design job at an ideal design-award-winning local/regional firm fresh out of grad school WITH THE SAME PORTFOLIO I HAD FROM UNDERGRAD. The connections and few extra projects of graduate studios and systems classes were generally worth it, but also not life changing. The main thing I learned is how to leverage networking into a job or opportunity, and how to conduct your own research inquiries that could potentially lead into teaching. If you can learn how to write studio briefs for yourself, or find some online - you can run your own self-initiated design projects without an official studio class and critique, and have an equally valid looking portfolio.
I will note that although the portfolio thing may have been a fluke, going to grad school (affordably) allowed me to seemingly 'shift gears' from working in a more technical focused, gritty/construction focused office (a blessing in disguise) to a more capital-A 'studio' environment with a handful of impactful projects. That cost me $50k loans for living expenses and my salary move was almost completely lateral (making very slightly more than I was before) in that timespan of 2 years, despite new skills learned and new projects done.
The fact that plenty of people only do 3 years of architecture school with first professional master's programs should be a solid indicator as to the value of an additional degree. I'm not going to say their isn't a value in the added skills, or the connections, but getting into the professional also gives you those, and a much wider range of other skills.
The real and critical value of any architecture degree in my eyes is having a professional degree you can get licenced with, even if you don't intend to get licenced it's essentially a terminal degree as it relates to the profession.
So, my recommendation is take the cheapest route to professional degree you can. And if it's not cheap enough for you to pay the bills, don't go into architecture. And that's not because you're stupid, or bad at architecture, it's because our education system is busted, and architecture isn't worth a lifetime of debt.