I'm interested to hear what sort of pricing and budget responsibilities the forms of the people here take on for their projects. Unit costs? Line item budgets?
I've seen so many projects get sunk because the contract does the first budget way past the point where carving out large amounts of money is feasible.
proto
Feb 23, 23 12:13 pm
Doing small projects, we vet expectations for budget in the interviewing phase & do an early cost exercise after SD with a contractor to confirm scoping makes sense. If it's still in line, we go to DD/CD & then either to bid or with a pre-selected GC.
We don't do any pricing beyond serious gut check stuff to make sure no one is thinking their remodel for new chef's kitchen is $100/sf. {"we know what we want...we just need some blueprints" gettouttahere...!}
It's hard to keep up with sub pricing these days and materials costs & lead times are just weird still. Better to access the market directly to get those answers, even if not fully detailed yet.
SneakyPete
Feb 23, 23 12:35 pm
Sounds logical. How do you get good numbers from a GC when you can't promise them the job yet?
proto
Feb 24, 23 3:48 pm
We have a few who are willing to actually bid things out w/ their team; it does take a bunch of time on their part. We provide framing/seismic strategy, arch plans & a narrative of finishes including a list of expected fixture assumptions. They understand our expected level of finish from past projects. So, the numbers are useful, even if not at all guaranteed at that early stage.
Chad Miller
Feb 23, 23 12:43 pm
We primarily do CMGC with a GMP.
Typically we'll have a cost estimate at:
SD, DD, 50% CD, 100%CD
The GMP is set with the DD estimate.
SneakyPete
Feb 23, 23 12:53 pm
That sounds so nice. Who on staff is in charge of the estimates or do you use an outside firm?
Chad Miller
Feb 23, 23 12:55 pm
The GC dose all the estimates.
The first firm I worked at back in 2002 had a master spec writer named Joe. He did all the specs, cost estimates, and QC'ing of drawings. His most common phrase was 'f*@king architects'. Joe was a great guy. I bring this up because in all my years of experience that is the only firm I've worked with that had a staff member who did cost estimates.
For non CMGC, GMP projects we hire an outside estimating firm. This is normally only done on government projects that require a third party estimate.
SneakyPete
Feb 23, 23 12:57 pm
Does your firm ever do projects where there is no GC until after CDs?
Chad Miller
Feb 23, 23 12:59 pm
Yes. It's about 10% of our work. We'll hire and outside for cost estimates if needed.
On a side note: because of our close work with the GC's we have a pretty good understanding of what a basic cost per square foot for various building types are. We use this knowledge when doing proposals to see if the owner's budget is reasonable. It helps inform us on our fee and if we should even consider proposing on the project. ;)
The architect is only required to base the estimate on "current area, volume or similar conceptual estimating techniques" at the end of SD, DD, and CD phases per AIA contract B101.
archanonymous
Feb 24, 23 6:17 pm
I've generally worked on project with an outside cost estimator or a GC already on board as we get through DD.
My responsibility in both cases involves closely reviewing estimates to weed out all the bullshit, then still being over budget, then removing a ton of scope, and when the project finally gets built, the GC makes it rain change orders to pay for their new boats.
SneakyPete
Feb 28, 23 4:32 pm
What firm do you use, if you don't mind sharing?
Chad Miller
Feb 28, 23 4:39 pm
AA - Are you doing commercial or residential work?
archanonymous
Mar 1, 23 6:16 am
Usually institutional or cultural so they have their own cost estimator or we work from a small pool.
Almosthip
Mar 1, 23 4:55 pm
I have prepared Class D cost estimates for some of our clients based on conceptual design drawings
I'm interested to hear what sort of pricing and budget responsibilities the forms of the people here take on for their projects. Unit costs? Line item budgets?
I've seen so many projects get sunk because the contract does the first budget way past the point where carving out large amounts of money is feasible.
Doing small projects, we vet expectations for budget in the interviewing phase & do an early cost exercise after SD with a contractor to confirm scoping makes sense. If it's still in line, we go to DD/CD & then either to bid or with a pre-selected GC.
We don't do any pricing beyond serious gut check stuff to make sure no one is thinking their remodel for new chef's kitchen is $100/sf. {"we know what we want...we just need some blueprints" gettouttahere...!}
It's hard to keep up with sub pricing these days and materials costs & lead times are just weird still. Better to access the market directly to get those answers, even if not fully detailed yet.
Sounds logical. How do you get good numbers from a GC when you can't promise them the job yet?
We have a few who are willing to actually bid things out w/ their team; it does take a bunch of time on their part. We provide framing/seismic strategy, arch plans & a narrative of finishes including a list of expected fixture assumptions. They understand our expected level of finish from past projects. So, the numbers are useful, even if not at all guaranteed at that early stage.
We primarily do CMGC with a GMP.
Typically we'll have a cost estimate at:
SD, DD, 50% CD, 100%CD
The GMP is set with the DD estimate.
That sounds so nice. Who on staff is in charge of the estimates or do you use an outside firm?
The GC dose all the estimates.
The first firm I worked at back in 2002 had a master spec writer named Joe. He did all the specs, cost estimates, and QC'ing of drawings. His most common phrase was 'f*@king architects'. Joe was a great guy. I bring this up because in all my years of experience that is the only firm I've worked with that had a staff member who did cost estimates.
For non CMGC, GMP projects we hire an outside estimating firm. This is normally only done on government projects that require a third party estimate.
Does your firm ever do projects where there is no GC until after CDs?
Yes. It's about 10% of our work. We'll hire and outside for cost estimates if needed.
On a side note: because of our close work with the GC's we have a pretty good understanding of what a basic cost per square foot for various building types are. We use this knowledge when doing proposals to see if the owner's budget is reasonable. It helps inform us on our fee and if we should even consider proposing on the project. ;)
I found this thread also.
https://archinect.com/forum/thread/119373949/construction-cost
The architect is only required to base the estimate on "current area, volume or similar conceptual estimating techniques" at the end of SD, DD, and CD phases per AIA contract B101.
I've generally worked on project with an outside cost estimator or a GC already on board as we get through DD.
My responsibility in both cases involves closely reviewing estimates to weed out all the bullshit, then still being over budget, then removing a ton of scope, and when the project finally gets built, the GC makes it rain change orders to pay for their new boats.
What firm do you use, if you don't mind sharing?
AA - Are you doing commercial or residential work?
Usually institutional or cultural so they have their own cost estimator or we work from a small pool.
I have prepared Class D cost estimates for some of our clients based on conceptual design drawings