I'm in Madison, WI now and in terms of quality of life it's great, but professionally it is awful, so we are starting to look at moving. I thought I'd see what suggestions other folks might have...
My ideal city would have:
1. Natural beauty & easy access to the outdoors
2. Affordable housing (median house price under $500k)
3. Thriving, open design culture and firms with sustainable mindset
4. North of the 42nd parallel (draw a line from the bottom of OR to the bottom of western NY)
I went to school in Seattle and loved it, but the cost of living is insane.
Also considering Portland, ME, but worried about the smaller size and limited professional opportunities.
Thoughts?
Cheers!
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 1:45 pm
You're going to have a hard time with this.
Take my location for example. It ass all of your requirements except for #3 and #4 (39th parallel). You're going to have to be willing to compromise a little bit when it comes to this list.
This is especially true for #3. When you have this #2 is pretty much out the window unless you're willing to have a long commute.
Might I ask what level of experience you have? This can either help for hurt where you can 'get a foot in the door" so to speak.
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 4:11 pm
10+ years & NCARB
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 4:52 pm
Licensed?
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 6:19 pm
Yep
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 22 10:17 am
Great! I'd think that you'd be super marketable!
tduds
Dec 21, 22 1:56 pm
Not a lot of places left that meet both 1 and 2 (where you can get a job).
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 1:57 pm
Grand Junction, CO meets both. The job part will depend on how good you are at what you do.
archanonymous
Dec 22, 22 6:24 am
"Thriving, open design culture?" I think that's a stretch, Chad.
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 22 10:48 am
AA -
I never said that.
In fact I said GJ doesn't have #3. I did say it has #1 and #2. You may want to check the OP's list again. ;)
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 1:59 pm
I think a good starting point would be to identify areas that meet #2 and #4. Then search for #1 and #3 within those areas.
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 4:11 pm
#1 is pretty much the non-negotiable one.
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 4:53 pm
You'll have to define what #1 means for you as it could be very different to others. Again, you're not going to find one area with all four criteria. You're going to have to compromise a bit.
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 6:29 pm
Maybe the real problem is that architecture doesn't pay enough ;)
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 22 10:13 am
It could be. I have 18 ish years of experience and now just make six figures. I am very lucky that I was able to find firms that valued my skills though.
I've never lived or worked in a city that had a population over 250K (Duluth, MN and Grand Junction, CO). I think the key was being in a city that served a larger rural area. The projects were large enough to keep me busy and interested but too small for the large metro firms to come after.
Wood Guy
Dec 21, 22 2:42 pm
I lived in Portland, ME for 12 years and most of my projects are still in that area, though I live 75 miles away. It's a great little city with everything you listed, though "affordability" is getting tight.
Within city limits the population is only 67K but the greater Portland area has about 250K people. Still small, but lots of higher-end residential work and lots of sustainable opportunities. Are you more interested in commercial or residential work? Every sustainably-oriented residential firm I know of is hiring, or would hire someone with skills. I turn down projects almost daily.
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 4:14 pm
Most of my experience is in Higher Ed and commercial, but I'd be open to switching to residential if the right opportunity came along. I'm a little worried that that would mean salary would take a hit though. Like you said affordability in Portland, ME is tight.
Wood Guy
Dec 22, 22 9:29 am
Have you been to Portland or know anyone there? I'm less familiar with the higher ed and commercial market than with residential, though there are firms that do both--two firms I compete with for high-performance residential work just teamed up to complete the first Living Building Challenge school in Maine, and both have done other, "green" schools as well. I don't pay attention to employee pay but I bet this area is similar to pay in Boston, with lower cost of living. Not that I'm trying to sell you on Portland; it just seems like a good fit.
Have you considered Ithaca, NY? I know a few architects there and it has a growing reputation for sustainable design.
Non Sequitur
Dec 22, 22 9:37 am
There are some great breweries in Ithaca.
pcramey
Dec 22, 22 9:39 am
No and No, which is why I'm trying to do my homework and get some more info.
I interviewed for a PhD position at Cornell back in the day and thought Ithaca was a cool spot. Worried about the size, similar feelings towards Burlington, VT. The one thing Ithaca has going for it is an architecture school.
Wood Guy
Dec 22, 22 10:00 am
If you want to PM me, I can suggest some firms to consider.
pcramey
Dec 22, 22 10:14 am
I think I PM'd you...it says that it sends you an email from my email address. Sorry, I'm a noob at this site.
Non Sequitur
Dec 22, 22 10:18 am
There are better breweries in Burlington. Go there instead.
pcramey
Dec 22, 22 10:36 am
I don't drink beer, coffee or like seafood, but a
lot of the places I like are know for those things ;)
Wood Guy
Dec 22, 22 12:59 pm
No beer, coffee or seafood?! Better not move to Maine, then. ;-)
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 22 1:03 pm
There are some nice Amish communities in northern Minnesota as well. ;)
Wood Guy
Dec 22, 22 1:06 pm
I got your PM and responded.
pandahut
Dec 21, 22 2:55 pm
My friend, Minneapolis is right there.
Above the line.
Most biker connected city, boundary waters, isle royale, ely, lake superior......do I need to go on?
Med home price is low.
Downtown development is going very strong.
Design community is actually pretty good.
The final frontier is the mid-west anyways.
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 3:32 pm
Minneapolis has #3 and #4. It doesn't have #1 and #2. For #1 everyone heads up to the North Shore. As expected the traffic leaving and coming back to Minneapolis on the weekends is atrocious.
I'd recommend Duluth, MN. I used to live and work there for 13 years. If you find the right firm you'll have all four of your items to a reasonable degree. I'd check out the following firms: LHB, DSGW, TKDA, Salmena Architects, and Wagner Zaun Architecture.
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 4:16 pm
Yeah, #1 is the sticking point for the twin cities. I've been there half a dozen times or so and just never felt anything close to what I'm looking for.
I'll have to look at Duluth...
Chad Miller
Dec 21, 22 4:51 pm
The housing in Minneapolis isn't in your price range either. That is unless you want to have a 45 min commute each way or live in a dump.
bowling_ball
Dec 21, 22 6:20 pm
My google-fu tells me that the median detached home price Minneapolis is about $325k.
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 22 10:20 am
I think that's the medium cost including the suburbs. Just like Denver the medium online numbers and the actual costs are quite a ways apart. Back in 2015 we had friends looking for a home in the city of Minneapolis. They couldn't find a house under $450k.
I hope I'm incorrect and the housing costs have gone down in the area.
pandahut
Dec 21, 22 4:47 pm
Understandable. Portland, ME is growing no doubt I have a few friends from there but it is a smaller place so not sure how the job market is out there. Bend, OR is also still affordable for now and a massive outdoor playground. Duluth is cool but cold as shit. It's for sure a balance we moved further west to be closer to nature but everyone has the same idea to bail on weekends to get to the mtns. Id rather get an opportunity to work remote 100% and live In Truckee or Mazama....
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 6:24 pm
I've been looking for fully remote, but it seems like most places are expecting you to be close or shifting away from the fully remote option.
proto
Dec 21, 22 9:49 pm
Bend isn't affordable anymore
monosierra
Dec 21, 22 5:14 pm
Providence maybe? #3 is a stretch but there is a notable design school and a small but vibrant design culture there. It's definitely affordable as far as COL goes. Nature takes a bit of time to get to by bike, but Massachusetts and Connecticut are also very close by if you're taking a day trip.
Detroit might be a possibility. I've read about pretty cool (if guerilla) design work going on there ... but downtown is fast booming with new development so not sure about affordability just yet.
Smaller physical size and limited market usually goes hand in hand though. People flock to big cities for the depth and breadth of their professional opportunities, most of which are pretty unique.
proto
Dec 21, 22 8:55 pm
stay where you are; work for yourself.
#grassisalwaysgreener
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 9:00 pm
I have considered this, but as discussed above I don't really have any real residential experience or projects to show prospective clients...also marketing/schmoozing is far from being my strong suit, so I'm also trying to be realistic about my strengths and what would be needed to drum up new business.
pandahut
Dec 21, 22 10:52 pm
I do like this topic though. I've long been looking for the "perfect" place but also have realized as I've moved it's sort of what's perfect for that period of my life.
OP, what cities have you been mulling over? Also, I do love Madison!
pcramey
Dec 21, 22 11:04 pm
Portland, ME
Richard Balkins
Dec 21, 22 11:19 pm
I'd say, many parts of Oregon and Washington. The prices drop off somewhat as you are further or outside of major cities. While Portland, Oregon downtown and similar downtown areas (Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia) in the Puget Sound area of Washington are the highest cost areas but it drops a little outside the downtowns, and then more as you go further from the metropolitan areas. Arguably, you get a nicer more naturally beautiful area to live but you may or will likely be further disconnected from some of the amenities of big city life & culture. I am not dissing the natural beauties of other places.
Richard Balkins
Dec 21, 22 11:37 pm
Washington has some nice places to live and it's not all in Seattle. My personal experience prefers the coastal cascade regions west of the I-5 corridor. For cost, I'd probably stay outside the metropolitan regions for living. Close enough to work on projects in the big cities or reasonable commute as needed. In Washinton, there is Longview & Kelso halfway between Astoria and Portland/Vancouver area. Further to the coast, you have the Naselle, Ilwaco, Long Beach peninsula area, South Bend, up a little more north, and you have Aberdeen and further up and you got Port Townsend and Whidbey Island. All some nice places. Just to the east of the I-5 corridor, you have the main Cascades then you have the drier more dry plains / desert-like environment in the eastern Oregon and Washington region before you get into the mountainous forests of Idaho. Most architecture firms are going to want workers to be close enough to come to the office. The laws and rules governing an architect's responsibility of supervision and control over preparation of work requiring an architect's seal, kind of make it difficult to allow full remote work performed by non-licensed employees especially when the level of pandemic emergency has waned. If you are licensed, you are free to set up your office where you want to.
I'm in Madison, WI now and in terms of quality of life it's great, but professionally it is awful, so we are starting to look at moving. I thought I'd see what suggestions other folks might have...
My ideal city would have:
1. Natural beauty & easy access to the outdoors
2. Affordable housing (median house price under $500k)
3. Thriving, open design culture and firms with sustainable mindset
4. North of the 42nd parallel (draw a line from the bottom of OR to the bottom of western NY)
I went to school in Seattle and loved it, but the cost of living is insane.
Also considering Portland, ME, but worried about the smaller size and limited professional opportunities.
Thoughts?
Cheers!
You're going to have a hard time with this.
Take my location for example. It ass all of your requirements except for #3 and #4 (39th parallel). You're going to have to be willing to compromise a little bit when it comes to this list.
This is especially true for #3. When you have this #2 is pretty much out the window unless you're willing to have a long commute.
Might I ask what level of experience you have? This can either help for hurt where you can 'get a foot in the door" so to speak.
10+ years & NCARB
Licensed?
Yep
Great! I'd think that you'd be super marketable!
Not a lot of places left that meet both 1 and 2 (where you can get a job).
Grand Junction, CO meets both. The job part will depend on how good you are at what you do.
"Thriving, open design culture?" I think that's a stretch, Chad.
AA -
I never said that.
In fact I said GJ doesn't have #3. I did say it has #1 and #2. You may want to check the OP's list again. ;)
I think a good starting point would be to identify areas that meet #2 and #4. Then search for #1 and #3 within those areas.
#1 is pretty much the non-negotiable one.
You'll have to define what #1 means for you as it could be very different to others. Again, you're not going to find one area with all four criteria. You're going to have to compromise a bit.
Maybe the real problem is that architecture doesn't pay enough ;)
It could be. I have 18 ish years of experience and now just make six figures. I am very lucky that I was able to find firms that valued my skills though.
I've never lived or worked in a city that had a population over 250K (Duluth, MN and Grand Junction, CO). I think the key was being in a city that served a larger rural area. The projects were large enough to keep me busy and interested but too small for the large metro firms to come after.
I lived in Portland, ME for 12 years and most of my projects are still in that area, though I live 75 miles away. It's a great little city with everything you listed, though "affordability" is getting tight.
Within city limits the population is only 67K but the greater Portland area has about 250K people. Still small, but lots of higher-end residential work and lots of sustainable opportunities. Are you more interested in commercial or residential work? Every sustainably-oriented residential firm I know of is hiring, or would hire someone with skills. I turn down projects almost daily.
Most of my experience is in Higher Ed and commercial, but I'd be open to switching to residential if the right opportunity came along. I'm a little worried that that would mean salary would take a hit though. Like you said affordability in Portland, ME is tight.
Have you been to Portland or know anyone there? I'm less familiar with the higher ed and commercial market than with residential, though there are firms that do both--two firms I compete with for high-performance residential work just teamed up to complete the first Living Building Challenge school in Maine, and both have done other, "green" schools as well. I don't pay attention to employee pay but I bet this area is similar to pay in Boston, with lower cost of living. Not that I'm trying to sell you on Portland; it just seems like a good fit.
Have you considered Ithaca, NY? I know a few architects there and it has a growing reputation for sustainable design.
There are some great breweries in Ithaca.
No and No, which is why I'm trying to do my homework and get some more info.
I interviewed for a PhD position at Cornell back in the day and thought Ithaca was a cool spot. Worried about the size, similar feelings towards Burlington, VT. The one thing Ithaca has going for it is an architecture school.
If you want to PM me, I can suggest some firms to consider.
I think I PM'd you...it says that it sends you an email from my email address. Sorry, I'm a noob at this site.
There are better breweries in Burlington. Go there instead.
I don't drink beer, coffee or like seafood, but a lot of the places I like are know for those things ;)
No beer, coffee or seafood?! Better not move to Maine, then. ;-)
There are some nice Amish communities in northern Minnesota as well. ;)
I got your PM and responded.
My friend, Minneapolis is right there.
Above the line.
Most biker connected city, boundary waters, isle royale, ely, lake superior......do I need to go on?
Med home price is low.
Downtown development is going very strong.
Design community is actually pretty good.
The final frontier is the mid-west anyways.
Minneapolis has #3 and #4. It doesn't have #1 and #2. For #1 everyone heads up to the North Shore. As expected the traffic leaving and coming back to Minneapolis on the weekends is atrocious.
I'd recommend Duluth, MN. I used to live and work there for 13 years. If you find the right firm you'll have all four of your items to a reasonable degree. I'd check out the following firms: LHB, DSGW, TKDA, Salmena Architects, and Wagner Zaun Architecture.
Yeah, #1 is the sticking point for the twin cities. I've been there half a dozen times or so and just never felt anything close to what I'm looking for.
I'll have to look at Duluth...
The housing in Minneapolis isn't in your price range either. That is unless you want to have a 45 min commute each way or live in a dump.
My google-fu tells me that the median detached home price Minneapolis is about $325k.
I think that's the medium cost including the suburbs. Just like Denver the medium online numbers and the actual costs are quite a ways apart. Back in 2015 we had friends looking for a home in the city of Minneapolis. They couldn't find a house under $450k.
I hope I'm incorrect and the housing costs have gone down in the area.
Understandable. Portland, ME is growing no doubt I have a few friends from there but it is a smaller place so not sure how the job market is out there. Bend, OR is also still affordable for now and a massive outdoor playground. Duluth is cool but cold as shit. It's for sure a balance we moved further west to be closer to nature but everyone has the same idea to bail on weekends to get to the mtns. Id rather get an opportunity to work remote 100% and live In Truckee or Mazama....
I've been looking for fully remote, but it seems like most places are expecting you to be close or shifting away from the fully remote option.
Bend isn't affordable anymore
Providence maybe? #3 is a stretch but there is a notable design school and a small but vibrant design culture there. It's definitely affordable as far as COL goes. Nature takes a bit of time to get to by bike, but Massachusetts and Connecticut are also very close by if you're taking a day trip.
Detroit might be a possibility. I've read about pretty cool (if guerilla) design work going on there ... but downtown is fast booming with new development so not sure about affordability just yet.
Smaller physical size and limited market usually goes hand in hand though. People flock to big cities for the depth and breadth of their professional opportunities, most of which are pretty unique.
stay where you are; work for yourself.
#grassisalwaysgreener
I have considered this, but as discussed above I don't really have any real residential experience or projects to show prospective clients...also marketing/schmoozing is far from being my strong suit, so I'm also trying to be realistic about my strengths and what would be needed to drum up new business.
I do like this topic though. I've long been looking for the "perfect" place but also have realized as I've moved it's sort of what's perfect for that period of my life.
OP, what cities have you been mulling over? Also, I do love Madison!
Portland, ME
I'd say, many parts of Oregon and Washington. The prices drop off somewhat as you are further or outside of major cities. While Portland, Oregon downtown and similar downtown areas (Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia) in the Puget Sound area of Washington are the highest cost areas but it drops a little outside the downtowns, and then more as you go further from the metropolitan areas. Arguably, you get a nicer more naturally beautiful area to live but you may or will likely be further disconnected from some of the amenities of big city life & culture. I am not dissing the natural beauties of other places.
Washington has some nice places to live and it's not all in Seattle. My personal experience prefers the coastal cascade regions west of the I-5 corridor. For cost, I'd probably stay outside the metropolitan regions for living. Close enough to work on projects in the big cities or reasonable commute as needed. In Washinton, there is Longview & Kelso halfway between Astoria and Portland/Vancouver area. Further to the coast, you have the Naselle, Ilwaco, Long Beach peninsula area, South Bend, up a little more north, and you have Aberdeen and further up and you got Port Townsend and Whidbey Island. All some nice places. Just to the east of the I-5 corridor, you have the main Cascades then you have the drier more dry plains / desert-like environment in the eastern Oregon and Washington region before you get into the mountainous forests of Idaho. Most architecture firms are going to want workers to be close enough to come to the office. The laws and rules governing an architect's responsibility of supervision and control over preparation of work requiring an architect's seal, kind of make it difficult to allow full remote work performed by non-licensed employees especially when the level of pandemic emergency has waned. If you are licensed, you are free to set up your office where you want to.