I know this seems like a straightforward question, but it's causing
headaches at my workplace. Let me explain.
We have a Brick wall running down the center of our shop. The
Fire Suppression specialist informed us that if we remove this wall, we will
have a "Draft Curtain" code to abide by where we must have 2' down
from the ceiling and a 4' clear aisle below. We only fall into this category if
we take down the wall. So, we asked, "How much of the wall can we take
down before it's no longer considered a wall?"
Unfortunately, his answer was to reach out to an architect, so
here I am.
The wall isn't load bearing and the brick only goes from the
floor to the height of 12', the last 4' to reach the ceiling is sheet metal.
There are support beams from floor to ceiling every 25'.
Please let me know if there's anything more i can clear up, but
to sum it up, we want to know how much of a wall we can remove before it's not
considered a wall.
Chad Miller
Oct 31, 22 3:17 pm
I would suspect it will be determined by a combination of the IBC and the ANSI 117.1.
If you want more specifics you'll need to hire me. ;) My rate is $110 an hour.
chadbitson
Oct 31, 22 3:18 pm
Thank you for the response Chad. Unfortunately I'm not looking to hiring anyone online.
We have local sources if i deem that necessary, but I'm looking for more general opinions of this scenario so I can build a perspective on it.
Chad Miller
Oct 31, 22 3:23 pm
I was joking. You're asking us to do provide free services though.
With the information you've provided and my response you should be able to to hire a local architect to answer this question.
natematt
Oct 31, 22 4:29 pm
is that your personal rate, or your firm rate?
Chad Miller
Oct 31, 22 4:30 pm
I'll never tell . . . .
It's my billable hourly rate.
tduds
Oct 31, 22 5:46 pm
$110 is a steal!
Chad Miller
Oct 31, 22 5:58 pm
Ten hour minimum .
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 7:17 am
Thank you Chad, I wasn't asking for any service, just a conversation. I was under the misconception that that was the use of this forum. If this forum is instead for finding work than I apologize and will search elsewhere
Non Sequitur
Nov 1, 22 7:53 am
Chad, you in fact asked for a service. Chad pointed you in a direction that likely would have given you some answers but you just want a quick fix, at no cost to you. This forum is not for the DIY weekend warrior types, it’s a sketchy dive bar where we occasionally swap bad client or bad contractor stories amongst peers.
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 9:06 am
Understood, definitely not the platform I thought it was. Chad didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but thanks for the clarification.
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 10:39 am
If you already where aware of those codes and how the relate to your issue then it would've taken you less time to figure out a possible solution then it would to post here. Seriously.
proto
Oct 31, 22 4:04 pm
@ OP, that's unfortunately not the right question
call a local IRL architect , have that person visit your space & review your fire suppression contact's issue & get your answer that way
there are a ton of details that may affect the actual answer & they are best answered by someone who properly understands your space...a Q&A here is unlikely to get to the meat of it in any reasonable way without all the base fire protection info as a starting point
natematt
Oct 31, 22 4:37 pm
yeah this sounds like they don't understand the issue. It's not about the definition of a wall, it's about smoke, and the options for controlling it. Unlikely they will like any of their options for solving this. They will need to hire someone to look at it, or get the consultant to explain it better...
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 7:19 am
Thank you for the perspective, you both are probably correct that there's more beyond this simple question and i can agree there are many other important details. I'm learning quickly that it sounds like an easy question, but has many variables.
citizen
Oct 31, 22 5:40 pm
Bad Chad:I'm looking for free professional advice online... so I can "build perspective."
Good Chad:Here's the relevant code section. You should hire a professional.
Bad Chad:Unfortunately I'm not looking to hiring anyone online. I'm a skinflint hoping to exploit others' expertise for free.
Chad Miller
Oct 31, 22 5:57 pm
I'll be honest - I was confused for a second.
citizen
Oct 31, 22 6:33 pm
I'll take credit for making you think a little bit this afternoon :O]
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 7:21 am
I'm obviously in the wrong when led by the assumption you all were here to help. I use many forums and this is the first where someone has taking the time to mock the conversation when not willing to pay. "Citizen" I apologize for assuming you would every help someone without personal
benefit.
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 10:34 am
chadbitson – We did help you. I already provided you with the relevant codes that you'll have to investigate to get an idea of what to speak with your AHJ about. Several others pointed out that you’ll have to speak with the AHJ to determine what they want to do.
The issue is that you're asking us to provide detailed code research and coordination with your local AHJ without pay. Not only is this not a small task but it opens us to liability concerns.
In addition, you haven't given us enough information to provide you with anything close to definitive response.
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 12:20 pm
I never asked for detailed code research. not even close, i literally said "opinions of this scenario". This community is really something else....I can see plenty of proof that this is where the complainers come to complain. just by the perspectives you all share.
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 12:26 pm
The options for this scenario depends on factors that you haven't provided information on. It's quite clear from your posts that you don't really understand what your AHJ is asking of you. Hence why you won't get answers here.
As for what defines a wall the IBC and ANSI 117.1 will provide guidelines that can answer that. Since you're familiar with those codes it should be easy for you to figure this out. Then again you're going to need to discuss this with your AHJ and make sure they agree with you.
Again, you're going to need to hire a local architect to help you with this. I'd suggest you go away and find one. Let us know if they are willing to provide you with 'options for this scenario' for free.
Non Sequitur
Oct 31, 22 6:38 pm
I hear that you can just spray-paint special fire-retardant paint on brick walls. So maybe just get a bunch of cans and try that out.
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 7:22 am
Great, I'll grab that from your house after I visit tonight. -Thanks
Non Sequitur
Nov 1, 22 7:51 am
No problem. I’m a little short on colour selection tho. You can pick between stripper pink, sea-foam green, or developer beige.
chadbitson
Nov 1, 22 9:07 am
I'll take whatever color is in the top drawer, that way i can grab everything at once
Non Sequitur
Nov 1, 22 9:09 am
Stripper Pink it is!
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 10:40 am
It's more of a bubble gum pink, FYI.
Volunteer
Nov 1, 22 10:37 am
Ask your local building inspector. They will quote chapter and verse and tell you if there are any grandfather clauses available. And it's free and without the snark.
deltar
Nov 1, 22 11:04 am
Depends on the jurisdiction. In my office we have to do fire plan review its going to cost a building permit fee plus an hour minimum of our time.
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 11:23 am
We are the same. Our AHJ requires an architect to sign off on the assembly / design. Like we've been saying there simply isn't enough information provided to give a simple quick answer. Like it or not the OP isn't going to get a 'make the wall x inches tall and you'll be fine.
Almosthip
Nov 1, 22 12:32 pm
Chadbitson what is your profession? Do you make a habit of giving away your products or services for free to everyone random stranger on the internet when they ask for it?
Or do you prefer to have monetary gain for your efforts and / or knowledge?
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 12:39 pm
He's a manufacturing engineering technician so I doubt he gives anything he dose away for free.
natematt
Nov 1, 22 2:07 pm
I feel like archinect has a bad habit of being really harsh on laypeople asking questions. The issue is that they never understand the complexity of the question, but then get jumped on with snark for it. The fact that they’d ask this question the way they did shows 1) a misunderstanding of the issue 2) a misunderstanding that it is a simple question to answer. That can be responded to nicely. Even if the ultimate conclusion is almost always that you need to hire someone to look at this.
It's not that hard to be polite about, but I think the architects here are conditioned to be defensive because we have clients and contractors asking the same sort of things sometimes.
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 3:48 pm
This is true. That's why I googled the OP's username and discovered his profession. He should understand the complexity of the issue.
I'm happy to answer questions like these from our clients and contractors. They are understandable, decent people .
citizen
Nov 1, 22 4:15 pm
Well put, Nate. I hereby retract my knives, which didn't serve much purpose here. There's no sin in just asking a question. Sometimes I pounce without thinking first.
Chad Miller
Nov 1, 22 4:33 pm
I retract nothing. The OP knew what he was asking and has experience with engineering.
Brud-G
Nov 1, 22 3:51 pm
25%. You can remove 25% of the area of the wall
atelier nobody
Nov 1, 22 6:43 pm
OP, it sounds like you've already heard from a specialist who knows much more of the particulars of your situation than anyone here.
For anyone here to give you a second opinion would require knowing a LOT more about the building and performing a detailed Code analysis, which would, as others have said, be a professional service. At least in my State, it would be illegal for me to perfom this service without a written contract.
I know this seems like a straightforward question, but it's causing headaches at my workplace. Let me explain.
We have a Brick wall running down the center of our shop. The Fire Suppression specialist informed us that if we remove this wall, we will have a "Draft Curtain" code to abide by where we must have 2' down from the ceiling and a 4' clear aisle below. We only fall into this category if we take down the wall. So, we asked, "How much of the wall can we take down before it's no longer considered a wall?"
Unfortunately, his answer was to reach out to an architect, so here I am.
The wall isn't load bearing and the brick only goes from the floor to the height of 12', the last 4' to reach the ceiling is sheet metal. There are support beams from floor to ceiling every 25'.
Please let me know if there's anything more i can clear up, but to sum it up, we want to know how much of a wall we can remove before it's not considered a wall.
I would suspect it will be determined by a combination of the IBC and the ANSI 117.1.
If you want more specifics you'll need to hire me. ;) My rate is $110 an hour.
Thank you for the response Chad.
Unfortunately I'm not looking to hiring anyone online.
We have local sources if i deem that necessary, but I'm looking for more general opinions of this scenario so I can build a perspective on it.
I was joking. You're asking us to do provide free services though.
With the information you've provided and my response you should be able to to hire a local architect to answer this question.
is that your personal rate, or your firm rate?
I'll never tell . . . .
It's my billable hourly rate.
$110 is a steal!
Ten hour minimum .
Thank you Chad, I wasn't asking for any service, just a conversation. I was under the misconception that that was the use of this forum. If this forum is instead for finding work than I apologize and will search elsewhere
Chad, you in fact asked for a service. Chad pointed you in a direction that likely would have given you some answers but you just want a quick fix, at no cost to you. This forum is not for the DIY weekend warrior types, it’s a sketchy dive bar where we occasionally swap bad client or bad contractor stories amongst peers.
Understood, definitely not the platform I thought it was. Chad didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but thanks for the clarification.
If you already where aware of those codes and how the relate to your issue then it would've taken you less time to figure out a possible solution then it would to post here. Seriously.
@ OP, that's unfortunately not the right question
call a local IRL architect , have that person visit your space & review your fire suppression contact's issue & get your answer that way
there are a ton of details that may affect the actual answer & they are best answered by someone who properly understands your space...a Q&A here is unlikely to get to the meat of it in any reasonable way without all the base fire protection info as a starting point
yeah this sounds like they don't understand the issue. It's not about the definition of a wall, it's about smoke, and the options for controlling it. Unlikely they will like any of their options for solving this. They will need to hire someone to look at it, or get the consultant to explain it better...
Thank you for the perspective, you both are probably correct that there's more beyond this simple question and i can agree there are many other important details. I'm learning quickly that it sounds like an easy question, but has many variables.
Bad Chad: I'm looking for free professional advice online... so I can "build perspective."
Good Chad: Here's the relevant code section. You should hire a professional.
Bad Chad: Unfortunately I'm not looking to hiring anyone online. I'm a skinflint hoping to exploit others' expertise for free.
I'll be honest - I was confused for a second.
I'll take credit for making you think a little bit this afternoon :O]
I'm obviously in the wrong when led by the assumption you all were here to help. I use many forums and this is the first where someone has taking the time to mock the conversation when not willing to pay. "Citizen" I apologize for assuming you would every help someone without personal benefit.
chadbitson – We did help you. I already provided you with the relevant codes that you'll have to investigate to get an idea of what to speak with your AHJ about. Several others pointed out that you’ll have to speak with the AHJ to determine what they want to do.
The issue is that you're asking us to provide detailed code research and coordination with your local AHJ without pay. Not only is this not a small task but it opens us to liability concerns.
In addition, you haven't given us enough information to provide you with anything close to definitive response.
I never asked for detailed code research. not even close, i literally said "opinions of this scenario". This community is really something else....I can see plenty of proof that this is where the complainers come to complain. just by the perspectives you all share.
The options for this scenario depends on factors that you haven't provided information on. It's quite clear from your posts that you don't really understand what your AHJ is asking of you. Hence why you won't get answers here.
As for what defines a wall the IBC and ANSI 117.1 will provide guidelines that can answer that. Since you're familiar with those codes it should be easy for you to figure this out. Then again you're going to need to discuss this with your AHJ and make sure they agree with you.
Again, you're going to need to hire a local architect to help you with this. I'd suggest you go away and find one. Let us know if they are willing to provide you with 'options for this scenario' for free.
I hear that you can just spray-paint special fire-retardant paint on brick walls. So maybe just get a bunch of cans and try that out.
Great, I'll grab that from your house after I visit tonight. -Thanks
No problem. I’m a little short on colour selection tho. You can pick between stripper pink, sea-foam green, or developer beige.
I'll take whatever color is in the top drawer, that way i can grab everything at once
Stripper Pink it is!
It's more of a bubble gum pink, FYI.
Ask your local building inspector. They will quote chapter and verse and tell you if there are any grandfather clauses available. And it's free and without the snark.
Depends on the jurisdiction. In my office we have to do fire plan review its going to cost a building permit fee plus an hour minimum of our time.
We are the same. Our AHJ requires an architect to sign off on the assembly / design. Like we've been saying there simply isn't enough information provided to give a simple quick answer. Like it or not the OP isn't going to get a 'make the wall x inches tall and you'll be fine.
Chadbitson what is your profession? Do you make a habit of giving away your products or services for free to everyone random stranger on the internet when they ask for it?
Or do you prefer to have monetary gain for your efforts and / or knowledge?
He's a manufacturing engineering technician so I doubt he gives anything he dose away for free.
I feel like archinect has a bad habit of being really harsh on laypeople asking questions. The issue is that they never understand the complexity of the question, but then get jumped on with snark for it. The fact that they’d ask this question the way they did shows 1) a misunderstanding of the issue 2) a misunderstanding that it is a simple question to answer. That can be responded to nicely. Even if the ultimate conclusion is almost always that you need to hire someone to look at this.
It's not that hard to be polite about, but I think the architects here are conditioned to be defensive because we have clients and contractors asking the same sort of things sometimes.
This is true. That's why I googled the OP's username and discovered his profession. He should understand the complexity of the issue.
I'm happy to answer questions like these from our clients and contractors. They are understandable, decent people .
Well put, Nate. I hereby retract my knives, which didn't serve much purpose here. There's no sin in just asking a question. Sometimes I pounce without thinking first.
I retract nothing. The OP knew what he was asking and has experience with engineering.
25%. You can remove 25% of the area of the wall
OP, it sounds like you've already heard from a specialist who knows much more of the particulars of your situation than anyone here.
For anyone here to give you a second opinion would require knowing a LOT more about the building and performing a detailed Code analysis, which would, as others have said, be a professional service. At least in my State, it would be illegal for me to perfom this service without a written contract.
Well then...