Just have a question about about safety precaution.
If you are both licensed architect and builder with training about safety on job site and You work as architect for your client with B101. You and other general contractor has contractual agreement A201 because this is how the client prefer
Under these two contract they stated that architect will have no control over safety precautions and contractor is responsible for safety precautions.
What happened if during the site visit you found scaffold board with no guardrails installed and you see workers walk by. You know that it’s not safe for sure for people to walk by.
Would you have to notify owner or general contractor? If you “know” for sure it’s not safe. Does it breach of contract when notify? Or licensed architect/ builder is protected.
What happened if accident happen and person die would you responsible as well because you know that is dangerous and take no safety precaution “cause”other person to die? Or it’s solitary on general contractor’s responsibility that you have A201 with?
All of those not a real story just a questions
Thank you
OldJason
Aug 17, 22 9:02 am
From my limited experience and studying for ARE, I think the "textbook" course of action is to bring up your concern with the GC or site safety superintendent, but not the course of corrective action (as in "hey man, you should install some guardrail there"). If not corrected when you visit the next time, you should bring up the concern with the owner as well?
Would love to hear how more eperienced architects would handle this.
OldJason
Aug 17, 22 9:04 am
Oh, and note that you brought up the concern in your field report (part of what you are supposed to do in textbook way).
Everyday Architect
Aug 17, 22 12:01 pm
AIA Best Practice "Site Safety: Managing Risks and Liability" contributed by Victor O. Schinnerer & Company Inc.
When you recognize a dangerous situation, report it in writing. Record the date, the perceived unsafe conditions, and the name and position of the person on site who was notified. This notice should also be sent to the client, indicating that the unsafe condition is a breach of the construction contract.
At times, more direct action may be reasonable. Courts routinely determine that reasonable action to prevent an injury does not create a constant responsibility for site safety. Yet, even without a contractual obligation, a design professional’s duty to protect public health and safety suggests that he or she take the following actions:
A condition should be reported to the person most capable of remedying the situation.
If the danger is more critical or recurring—or indicates that the contractor cannot meet contractual or legal requirements—it should be reported to the client, who retains the power to stop the work.
If the danger is imminent, prudence and professionalism require immediate action.
In summary, contract language, conduct during construction, and the design professional’s duty to protect the public can result in a professional liability exposure. All of these require that the design professional understand possible exposures and respond in a reasonable manner.
Marco Marco
Aug 17, 22 12:03 pm
how does the GC will notice in writing I think they send field report to owner right or does GC recieve it as well? Please advise
Everyday Architect
Aug 17, 22 1:28 pm
The advice you'll get here is worth the amount you're paying for it. If you're not sure how to submit field reports, you probably need to figure that out first. If this is for work, I'd say talk to someone in your office who knows better ASAP.
If this is a hypothetical or studying for the ARE scenario, keep researching and learning ... figure out why the responsibilities of each party are structured in this way and you'll likely understand the situation better.
Non Sequitur
Aug 17, 22 12:21 pm
Saw about 8,000 words' worth of replies from R.B. earlier this morning in this thread... nuked? The manifesto thread is over there.
Everyday Architect
Aug 17, 22 1:24 pm
I didn't see any of it, but that explains his silence in here. I figured he'd be all over this and it sounds like he was. Thanks mods for the cleanup.
proto
Aug 17, 22 3:14 pm
lol
Chad Miller
Aug 17, 22 1:37 pm
As others have said, if using AIA contracts and you find something unsafe during a site visit you are REQUIRED to tell the general contractor.
Everyday Architect
Aug 17, 22 2:23 pm
Not exactly. AIA contracts are pretty clear that the architect doesn't have any responsibility for jobsite safety (see below from A201)
However, courts may interpret an architect's actions and/or a general duty to the HSW of the public to imply some responsibility even if the contract is worded to exclude any such responsibility. The article I linked above covers this.
Chad Miller
Aug 19, 22 10:22 am
Correct. As an architect we don't have any responsibility for jobsite safety. We do have a responsibility to report any unsafe conditions we witness during jobsite visits though.
Everyday Architect
Aug 19, 22 4:31 pm
I agree, I think my concern was your original wording re: use of AIA contracts. I'm not sure any of the AIA contracts indicate the responsibility you noted (please provide details if I'm wrong). I think that's separate from the AIA and more related to HSW duty one takes as a licensed architect.
joseffischer
Aug 19, 22 9:37 am
Principal level advice I've received at multiple firms has been no, if it looks egregiously wrong and/or imminent to a layman/architect's perspective, sure thing, but otherwise, don't comment in writing. I've even heard comments like "we're not OSHA trained, don't go sticking your nose into it." to which I responded I was OSHA trained (previous job requirements) and I swear the VP's face turned a little white.
I get where they're coming from, it opens a can of worms if you're trained and start identifying problems in field reports because then if something went wrong and due diligence shows you took a picture where the infraction was in the background, the lawyers are going to start circling. This is generally why excluding the first site photo orienting the field report, all my photos are zoomed into the problem/component at hand that I'm directly flagging and I don't take photos of just "progress". Keeps the field reports lean as well.
I mean think of all the PPE violations you see. Verbal reminders to the super and/or safety guy is best.
Marco Marco
Sep 5, 22 3:53 am
joseffischer
The VP you mean Vice President?
So if you wrote the comments that deep trench was no shoring. Will there be a problem with VP? Would you take picture with field report or just comment?
There was a case where engineer visit the site and trench collapse on worker. Engineer was on the site when worker in the trench and don’t give warning.
joseffischer
Sep 5, 22 6:15 pm
I think that's a great example of what the vice president was getting at (whether I agree or not). I think it's great because that happens a lot and it can be a very dangerous situation and I've had senior leadership question the requirements around deep trenching specifically.
joseffischer
Sep 6, 22 10:59 am
hmm, my edits elaborating didn't save, TL:DR I often find that ownership at a variety of companies forget we're out their for a reason and that we have a professional responsibility beyond their perceived firm liabilities, and that sometimes their attempts to mitigate risk (don't look, don't comment, don't etc) create more risk. Though in your example, I would hope any legal action didn't find the engineer liable.
Donna Sink
Aug 19, 22 12:34 pm
Noting concern about what appears to be a potentially unsafe condition is fine. Recommending what is actually wrong or how to fix it is not.
Marco Marco
Sep 5, 22 3:52 am
joseffischer
The VP you mean Vice President?
So if you wrote the comments that deep trench was no shoring. Will there be a problem with VP? Would you take picture with field report or just comment?
There was a case where engineer visit the site and trench collapse on worker. Engineer was on the site when worker in the trench and don’t give warning.
Just have a question about about safety precaution.
If you are both licensed architect and builder with training about safety on job site and You work as architect for your client with B101. You and other general contractor has contractual agreement A201 because this is how the client prefer
Under these two contract they stated that architect will have no control over safety precautions and contractor is responsible for safety precautions.
What happened if during the site visit you found scaffold board with no guardrails installed and you see workers walk by. You know that it’s not safe for sure for people to walk by.
Would you have to notify owner or general contractor? If you “know” for sure it’s not safe. Does it breach of contract when notify? Or licensed architect/ builder is protected.
What happened if accident happen and person die would you responsible as well because you know that is dangerous and take no safety precaution “cause”other person to die? Or it’s solitary on general contractor’s responsibility that you have A201 with?
All of those not a real story just a questions
Thank you
From my limited experience and studying for ARE, I think the "textbook" course of action is to bring up your concern with the GC or site safety superintendent, but not the course of corrective action (as in "hey man, you should install some guardrail there"). If not corrected when you visit the next time, you should bring up the concern with the owner as well?
Would love to hear how more eperienced architects would handle this.
Oh, and note that you brought up the concern in your field report (part of what you are supposed to do in textbook way).
AIA Best Practice "Site Safety: Managing Risks and Liability" contributed by Victor O. Schinnerer & Company Inc.
https://www.aia.org/best-pract...
When you recognize a dangerous situation, report it in writing. Record the date, the perceived unsafe conditions, and the name and position of the person on site who was notified. This notice should also be sent to the client, indicating that the unsafe condition is a breach of the construction contract.
At times, more direct action may be reasonable. Courts routinely determine that reasonable action to prevent an injury does not create a constant responsibility for site safety. Yet, even without a contractual obligation, a design professional’s duty to protect public health and safety suggests that he or she take the following actions:
In summary, contract language, conduct during construction, and the design professional’s duty to protect the public can result in a professional liability exposure. All of these require that the design professional understand possible exposures and respond in a reasonable manner.
how does the GC will notice in writing I think they send field report to owner right or does GC recieve it as well? Please advise
The advice you'll get here is worth the amount you're paying for it. If you're not sure how to submit field reports, you probably need to figure that out first. If this is for work, I'd say talk to someone in your office who knows better ASAP.
If this is a hypothetical or studying for the ARE scenario, keep researching and learning ... figure out why the responsibilities of each party are structured in this way and you'll likely understand the situation better.
Saw about 8,000 words' worth of replies from R.B. earlier this morning in this thread... nuked? The manifesto thread is over there.
I didn't see any of it, but that explains his silence in here. I figured he'd be all over this and it sounds like he was. Thanks mods for the cleanup.
lol
As others have said, if using AIA contracts and you find something unsafe during a site visit you are REQUIRED to tell the general contractor.
Not exactly. AIA contracts are pretty clear that the architect doesn't have any responsibility for jobsite safety (see below from A201)
However, courts may interpret an architect's actions and/or a general duty to the HSW of the public to imply some responsibility even if the contract is worded to exclude any such responsibility. The article I linked above covers this.
Correct. As an architect we don't have any responsibility for jobsite safety. We do have a responsibility to report any unsafe conditions we witness during jobsite visits though.
I agree, I think my concern was your original wording re: use of AIA contracts. I'm not sure any of the AIA contracts indicate the responsibility you noted (please provide details if I'm wrong). I think that's separate from the AIA and more related to HSW duty one takes as a licensed architect.
Principal level advice I've received at multiple firms has been no, if it looks egregiously wrong and/or imminent to a layman/architect's perspective, sure thing, but otherwise, don't comment in writing. I've even heard comments like "we're not OSHA trained, don't go sticking your nose into it." to which I responded I was OSHA trained (previous job requirements) and I swear the VP's face turned a little white.
I get where they're coming from, it opens a can of worms if you're trained and start identifying problems in field reports because then if something went wrong and due diligence shows you took a picture where the infraction was in the background, the lawyers are going to start circling. This is generally why excluding the first site photo orienting the field report, all my photos are zoomed into the problem/component at hand that I'm directly flagging and I don't take photos of just "progress". Keeps the field reports lean as well.
I mean think of all the PPE violations you see. Verbal reminders to the super and/or safety guy is best.
joseffischer
The VP you mean Vice President?
So if you wrote the comments that deep trench was no shoring. Will there be a problem with VP? Would you take picture with field report or just comment?
There was a case where engineer visit the site and trench collapse on worker. Engineer was on the site when worker in the trench and don’t give warning.
I think that's a great example of what the vice president was getting at (whether I agree or not). I think it's great because that happens a lot and it can be a very dangerous situation and I've had senior leadership question the requirements around deep trenching specifically.
hmm, my edits elaborating didn't save, TL:DR I often find that ownership at a variety of companies forget we're out their for a reason and that we have a professional responsibility beyond their perceived firm liabilities, and that sometimes their attempts to mitigate risk (don't look, don't comment, don't etc) create more risk. Though in your example, I would hope any legal action didn't find the engineer liable.
Noting concern about what appears to be a potentially unsafe condition is fine. Recommending what is actually wrong or how to fix it is not.
joseffischer
The VP you mean Vice President?
So if you wrote the comments that deep trench was no shoring. Will there be a problem with VP? Would you take picture with field report or just comment?
There was a case where engineer visit the site and trench collapse on worker. Engineer was on the site when worker in the trench and don’t give warning.