Hi! I'm in my late 30s, licensed, and have two Ivy League degrees (BA, MArch I) and about 12 years of experience working in various firms large and small in NYC on everything from international master plans to brownstone renovations to corporate interiors to ground-up high rise residential towers. I have deliberately avoided working for starchitects because of the bad pay and work life balance.
I'm finally making six figures thanks to some aggressive job maneuvering, which feels like a major win, but I'm wondering when and how I can get to the level where I don't have to spend 50% of my time dragging insulation batt lines and tagging doors and dimensioning shaft penetrations--but rather keeping an eye on these tasks from afar.
In both my recent jobs at small to midsize firms, I was hired as a Senior Project Manager, and was under the impression from the Partners who hired me that I would be delegating most of these tasks to junior staff members. In reality, I have been operating as an army-of-one, running the projects, coordinating with the clients and consultants, but also doing all of the drafting, detailing and minutia. Unfortunately, CD set creation is still the bulk of the work and the fee in the industry as we know it. It's making me wonder if I should find a new career, as I find it completely joyless and rote. Clearly some mid/senior level people at the various offices I've worked at successfully graduated from CAD monkeying...
CAD monkeying during SD is more enjoyable, as it is more of a direct expression of the space and form in my mind's eye. CAD monkeying during CDs is about as fun as doing my taxes.
How do I make the leap to a future role that's more in line with my interests of management, staffing, business development, client relations, space planning, and design strategy; and less direct involvement in "box-ticking" production tasks, as David Graeber would say. A role where my main tools are email, the telephone and Bluebeam, and occasionally Sketchup? If I open CAD, it would be to solve a unique detail or layout challenge, rather than to crank out 20 bathroom elevations.
If I move to a larger firm, how do I explicitly assert during the interview process that I don't want to be doing any CAD monkeying and hold them to this? With 12 years of experience I don't think this is an unreasonable request. If that's not possible, I think for my next job I will try to work for an owner's rep...or other ideas?
flatroof
Jul 20, 22 8:20 am
This is the fate of 80%+ of all arch grads, really. No one stops drafting you just get PM duties added on with the same impossible deadlines as before since your principals don't know how to open Revit or print to PDF.
monosierra
Jul 20, 22 8:57 am
I'm curious about the staffing structure at the firm you're at now - How come you're still doing so much CAD work? Are the junior staff inadequately trained? Is the firm under-staffed with a top-heavy structure? Is the design process distinctly broken into a 'Design' team and a 'Production' team, with neither doing the work of the other? Are you beholden to the firm by virtue of them sponsoring your work permit? I've seen these characteristics at firms where relatively senior staff are still doing basic CAD work.
Taking the initiative to bring in new business could be one way to expand your scope. Say, you bring a new client to the firm by smart networking outside office hours. Then you take ownership of this new business. Much easier said than done as it requires a different skillset - salesmanship, presentation, a solid knowledge of the real estate business and economics - but I have seen some folks do it as they leveraged their management and business development skills to get out (mostly) of the production workflow. They did have to be vocal and assertive about the responsibilities they want - and then prove they can handle the extra risks and responsibilities. The company's leadership has to be receptive too, of course.
Now, there is a conundrum for experienced staff - the more experienced you are at something, the more likely the firm is to entrust you with handling these tasks. One way out could be levelling up - that is, you still focus on your forte in developing details and level up to become the firm's technical expert in residence. That way, you train others to do what you're good at without doing all the work yourself. Be the grizzled vet whom other staff, junior and senior, go to for technical advice.
An owner's rep, as you mentioned, is a great idea too. Given your technical experience and (I assume) project type experience, it seems like a logical progression.
axonapoplectic
Jul 20, 22 11:08 am
My experience is it’s the revit gap. CAD you could be junior and mess things up and it wasn’t that big of a deal. With revit there’s less margin for error and a lot can go wrong if you have someone who doesn’t know what they are doing. Very rare to find people over 45-50
axonapoplectic
Jul 20, 22 11:09 am
Rare to find people over 50 who know revit.
monosierra
Jul 20, 22 11:46 am
<EDIT>
monosierra
Jul 20, 22 11:49 am
Indeed. I personally find communication skills and personality to be the key differentiator between mid-level PMs and CAD pros. The former tend to be excellent at managing the often complicated relationships between project stakeholders, and communicating the key design issues between the firm principals and these other parties. They are also adept at managing teams. The really good ones are able to shepherd the design intent successfully to fruition through solid technical know-how, top communication skills, and the prized ability to manage people in and outside of the firm.
This is not to say the quieter folks cannot find success. A technical guru is a coveted asset. But there is a stagnant ground for mid level to senior folks who do not have the chops to manage a team/project and who mostly stick to CAD/BIM work. The competition for the PM spot is within the firm, so how one measures up to one's colleagues plays a huge role.
gibbost
Jul 20, 22 12:59 pm
Mono's comment above is spot-on for determining who grows out of drafter and into a true PM role. As a whole, most Architects do not possess the skills necessary to deftly manage the client and contractor. Those that do, get pulled out from behind the computer and thrust into meetings. Lots of meetings. So many meetings. The grass really does seem greener though. Sometimes a couple days of of heads-down drafting is sublime.
bowling_ball
Jul 22, 22 9:02 pm
We're currently hiring for a mid-level PM, even though we have somebody we're setting up for that - but that'll take another 2 you 3 years and we have work waiting now. It's not always a smooth process, especially for those coveted PMs who aren't just used car salesmen.
RValu100
Jul 20, 22 8:58 am
Same here, CAD monkey since 2010. Are you good with numbers? You could get into the analytics side of the architecture/construction industry and maybe get more freedom from drafting.
Jacq Arch
Jul 20, 22 9:10 am
Also in my late 30s licensed but I left the typical architecture practice approximately 5 years ago for the exact same reasons you mentioned and beginning to regret it. To answer your question I think there isn't anyway out of it in a typical architecture setting because due to your experience level it is more efficient for a practice to have you do the cad work instead of an intern or junior level. My suggestion is to also leave but I warn be careful what you wish for. If you're like me your architecture brain will always be stuck in "The Upside Down," but useful.
joseffischer
Jul 20, 22 10:04 am
A lot of parallels in our stories, but I'm on the other end of it, so I logged in specifically to respond. I haven't spent nearly as much time on archinect exactly because I've been so busy enjoying my new roles as a proper Sr PM.
Background: in construction from family roots, '06 grad, so only a couple years more experience than you, similar spread of touching a multitude of jobs/firms, market sectors, and sizes/scopes ground-up vs rehab, in Atlanta/southeast region.
Same trajectory from Intern:productive cad monkey:productive revit monkey: 'fixer' on projects that went south: and finally 'one-man army'. At my last firm I handled the projects for 1 1/2 of the 3 Sr principals and one VP. Firm was very top heavy, inverted pyramid, and I was also maybe 4th or 5th youngest there out of 28 production staff and 34 rain-makers/HR/marketing. I too sought raises and promotions with the idea that at some point they'd just be paying me too much to waste time on placing standard roof details on a sheet (as example).
So some honest opinion on what helped me finally make the switch:
I looked for a firm full of younger people. The regional principals are my age or less than a decade older. One of them I went to school with.
I looked for a firm that needed my expertise. I could easily fill my day answering questions and sketching out standard concepts/redlining and that would be valuable. I have other responsibilities as well, but the key here is that my time is better spent 5-fold helping juniors be productive than getting into revit myself. At the old firm, I was one of the more productive draftsman, but everyone at the watering hole generally knew how to put buildings together. They didn't need me for anything but "make permit sets, get paid".
I asked for even more money. Honestly, if you've just broken 6-figs in NYC, I think you're still on the wrong side of the "line" between production vs management.
Finally, and likely the most important, I've THROWN myself at social training. I was honest about my history as a one-man army and my lack of team experience with the firm and my desire to learn. I've been reading tons of books on the subject, both provided to me by the firm and sought out on my own. I'm also attending leadership seminars, specifically the idea of democratic leadership and consensus building, as my role is more of an experienced team player than a CEO or director of design type position. The idea is to learn how to spot obstacles for your team and provide your team the tools to grow to meet the demand/tasks provided. I have a lot to learn still. We took a caliper test (there are many types out there) that told me what I already knew, I struggle with empathy and my "lead by example" model can morph easily into creating unrealistic/inhuman expectations. "sure, Josef can do it, but he's a one-man army workaholic"... I'm focusing on being more human and allowing people time to breathe and voice their own opinions.
TL:DR It's been night and day since this move after years of struggling with exactly what you're describing. Build up your emotional intelligence and ask firm leadership to hire junior people so you can get a chance to learn how to lead. If they aren't serious about it, jump ship.
ivanmillya
Jul 21, 22 11:38 am
What books can you recommend from your social training? I'm working my way into a low-level management position at my (quite small) firm, and I'm currently in that one-man-army stage of my career, being fairly recently licensed.
joseffischer
Jul 21, 22 12:46 pm
Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence was really helpful for me, but is a thick read
I liked the story-telling of Patrick Lencioni's Getting Naked
I also read Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and influence people and Keith Ferrazzi's never eat alone, which felt more gimicky and/or bent towards relationship building and getting ahead. They were on the list from my mentor, and I feel like I got the point he was hoping they would make, but I also feel like my place is more sergeant in the trenches than general in the board room.
I'm currently rereading How to work with and lead people not like you, by Kelly McDonald.
OldJason
Jul 20, 22 10:13 am
Just 2 year of experience here... a question:
Is doing CAD work for 50% of your time still considered as CAD monkey to most people here? At my current firm, I kind of seeing myslf becoming the "one man army" once I get to more senior position, and I am looking forward to it. It does not sound that bad. I do not want to become a senior member in 10 - 15 years, and starting to lose my software/drafting edge. (A big caveat is that the office adhere very strict to 40 hr work week except principals.)
Jacq Arch
Jul 20, 22 10:23 am
It's relative. What are you spending the other 50% on?
OldJason
Jul 20, 22 10:41 am
coordinating with GC & consultants &RFIs, junior staff to prepare sets, pricipals and client for design, site visits & sample reviews,... are what I am thinking of.
flatroof
Jul 20, 22 10:45 am
That's a 40+ hour job right there plus the 40+ hour drafting job you have right now and likely not for double the salary.
Chad Miller
Jul 20, 22 11:48 am
Depends on the size of the projects and how well they were done flatroof. Right now I'm dong CA on two projects, doing conceptual design on one, and doing CD's on another. Each project is around 10,000sf. I'm also mentoring junior staff. For this workload I'm doing 40 hours a week. I still have time to post here too.
ivanmillya
Jul 21, 22 2:45 pm
^ This. I'm in a similar boat at the moment, and I gotta say that Revit makes CDs a lot easier than CAD ever was, as far as just pushing through basic drafted views (plans, sections, elevations). It would probably take me 55+ hours a week to do everything I do in CAD. Instead I do 40 hours like normal, and then use extra time to operate as ad-hoc BIM manager to catch everyone else up to speed as our firm transitions to Revit fully.
axonapoplectic
Jul 20, 22 11:00 am
same issue. BA and MArch from top programs. Work for a large firm earning very good money. Often get stuck with modest size simple projects where I am flying solo on all the drafting and revit model management in addition to doing all the PA and some PM duties. Bulk of my time is dealing with revit visibility issues and talking to the underlings of my counterparts at our consultants regarding their revit models. If I join larger projects they have me doing primarily consultant coordination and model management, and none of the sexy stuff (no detailing, no building of the model, no going to meetings where I can actually learn about novel building systems). I don’t even have time to redline drawings. All I’m doing is fielding coordination and visibility questions from junior staff because none of the older people know revit.
I don’t want to be spending my time dealing with day to day revit bullshit. I hate revit. It is terrible software. I didn’t have to deal with this garbage back when I was doing everything in CAD.
axonapoplectic
Jul 20, 22 11:10 am
Plus I’m far from a revit expert. I have junior staff showing me how to do things all the time.
Stasis
Jul 21, 22 6:26 pm
man... i feel sorry for you. Doing correct visibility setting in Revit is not very intuitive and people can mess up. My architects did not set the cut plane and visibility below the cut plane right for the roof plan, so the scuppers did not appear on the final plans.. They should have caught that during the QA/QC but unfortunately, that fell through the crack.. 16 months into construction, the GC found that and charged CO for those.. Even though I resented that this is something the GC could have caught on their end, it was our fault for not showing them on our plan.. Whoever's modeling in BIM really ought to pay close attention on what appear on the final printed set....
blackdogsketch
Jul 21, 22 11:05 am
This is a core issue in the profession. I have seen that there are people who are just very technically-oriented and happier in production than in roles with creative or administrative responsibility. However, I still find it difficult to believe that someone would go through the extreme rigor of a 5-year BArch or a 3-year MArch program, owing a couple hundred thousand dollars, and tolerate doing production or administrative work for a decade or two at half the salary of an insurance salesman. But, we are all different. And we are all motivated differently.
" CAD monkeying during CDs is about as fun as doing my taxes." Funny! And I completely agree. When I was younger, I was fascinated with green architecture and building practices, then a LEED developed into something akin to NYC building codes, and I lost interest. I didn't like the extreme level of bureaucracy and detail/minutia. I was also pretty technically-oriented at an earlier point in my career and could detail all sorts of water and thermal envelope conditions. But at a certain point, it all just became so rote and soul-less. I am a right-brain person and the right side of my brain was atrophying.
I pretty much muscled my way into design. When it was apparent to one or two Partners that "this dude can draw!", I was given more opportunity. Proposals are a great way to get your feet in the door because usually the timeframe for developing the proposal and any included design concepts is really short. So if one can develop "eye candy" in a short period of time, you become a real asset and pave the path for being a "designer". Also true for the PM side of things. The proposal will need to include proposed project schedules, budgets, and so forth.
It sounds like you would also be happy in a traditional Project Manager role. Personally I cannot see how those people function. The required level of management, patience and fortitude is so great, I would have a nervous breakdown. Plus, many of them are operating on simultaneous projects. Just WAYYY to stressful for me, and doesn't feed the right-brain whatsoever.
If you can demonstrate talent and deliverables (I really do hate that term) in the area that you see yourself being happy, you will likely be allowed to move toward that comfort zone. Work independently if needed and bring your work to the team to demonstrate that you have ambition and talent. If management wont allow that or can't see that you would be happier and more productive in a realm that you were happier in, than the firm is probably not someplace that you want to be much longer. Work up your chops, document your body of knowledge in your resume and portfolio and move on. You typically make the biggest salary jumps when you switch to a new work environment, and it's a lot easier to sell your "new self" to a new employer, doing what you're passionate about.
Good luck on your journey.
blackdogsketch
Jul 21, 22 11:08 am
I'll add that wherever you are, its useful to have clearly defined roles and boundaries. If you move to a PM role, there's absolutely no reason you should still be drafting. That's not what a PM does and it ineffective use of your time and energy in the firm. Make sure you get a job description and suss out whether a new firm honors boundaries before signing on.
Stasis
Jul 21, 22 6:20 pm
If they ask you to take BIM/CAD test, then it is a bad sign. :)
Stasis
Jul 21, 22 5:56 pm
Strange Cascades,
Hi I am a Sr. Project Manager at a large EAC firm, but I did started out an architect and became a PM at one point. In my 15 years of experience, arch firms tend to blur roles/responsibilities of a PM. As you shared, I sometimes took on production work - setting up Revit models, client presentation using renderings, CD sets, and CA work. It was tough and drained me really fast.
I left that job and became a Sr. PM at EAC firms where they clearly defined roles and responsibilities of a PM per their job description. I have been doing purely PM tasks - Business development, Client relations, project planning and execution, and risk management. No drafting, renderings, or any production work. They got me a small laptop and didn't even install AutoCAD or Revit, so I haven't really touched drawings for past 8 years or so. Salary range for Sr. PM in my area (SF) and your experience level may be around $130K-200K+.
However, being a typical PM brings another set of headaches and pain. As someone mentioned above, you'd have to work through people to get things done, so yeah patience and fortitude. Even though their works aren't that great, you'd have to be positive and reinforce the good working and collaboration atmosphere. You'd have to push them little by little to do better. You are on the hook for any screw ups your design team do and have to defend company's image/reputation against outsiders. You live and die by each project.. It feels like a death if the client just moves on from you (even though you didn't cause it). You'd have to be good at writing proposals and interpreting the contract in order to avoid any ugly situations down the road. Some clients are nasty about scope, cost, and changes... Some are bullies who pushes you around to adhere to their needs then if things don't turn out the way they wanted, you'd be the first one to blame..
In larger EAC or PM firms nowadays, there are Design Managers and Project Managers. For larger projects, they have a PM overseeing the entire project team handling typical PM tasks I mentioned, but assign another manager, DM, to oversee the design related tasks - spearheading design drawings production, design coordination internal/external, BIM management (working with a BIM manager), etc. Also, construction companies hire a DM as a liaison between the Design team and the Construction team, so performing constructability reviews, interpreting CD sets, putting together submittal schedules, and overseeing coordination between AOR/EOR and different trades. If you still want to be a manager but also have hands in the design process, then I think a Design Manager could be a path for you.
I think there are many paths for PMs out there. You can be an owner's rep, or work as a PM for their companies. Here in the SF Bay Area, both tech and bio-tech companies are looking for PMs to run their capital expenditure projects. In this case, you become a client working with the design team to deliver building projects.
Strange Cascades
Jul 21, 22 7:35 pm
Thanks so much for all these great responses! I feel like I should respond individually to everyone, but a few things really hit close to home--like the spending 20 hours a week arguing about Revit Vis/graphics settings with the consultants BIM manager, then the switcheroo type things where you get told your job description would be one thing, and then it turns into a production grind. Also the situation where you are translating ideas for an older partner who can't use a computer to save his life. I will add, I'm very right brained (but also analytical) so being the seasoned technical detailing expert is definitely not the niche I'd want to pursue. Also, I'm fully American, so don't have any visa issues that can be used as leverage against me!
Should I actually pursue firms that only do SD and DD, firms that farm the CDs out to SLCE? That might reduce the amount of rote tedious tasks, but the downside might be lower pay and less job security? Or are design-only firms quite stable and successful these days in comparison to the pre 2008 era and worth another look? I think I have the portfolio, academic pedigree and aesthetic sensibilities to make a push for this...go the "Design Director" route, but most firms in NYC that I spoke to the past year were looking for technical/production staff. Or they gave me these murky job descriptions where it was unclear if it'd be a strictly PM role in the CD/CA phase, or more of a production grind situation? Again, that's where most of the manpower is needed it seems, right?
The most fulfilling job I had was actually at a hybrid/design multifamily development firm. It was super niche and their business model fell apart when market conditions changed--I haven't been able to find another firm remotely similar to what they did. But for a couple years it was both very creative and entrepreneurial at the same time. The focus was on design (good layouts, cool lighting and millwork), and then the actual construction, with minimal production and extremely lean drawing sets, since they were effectively their own GC and could figure things out quickly in the field.
My current office is both understaffed and top heavy, and it's only a 10 person firm. There's not really junior technical staff to delegate to, but they don't mind dumping low level tasks on me.
My old office had an extremely flat hierarchy where there were partners in their 60s and then there were a bunch of people with 3-10 years experience without much differentiation. Almost no one mid-career. As a result my boss couldn't quite understand that someone with 8-10 years of experience would actually have pretty different aspirations for what their day-to-day would look like compared to someone with 3 years. We were all young whippersnappers to him! There were also no interns or fresh grads to dump really boring stuff onto (though this was probably a good thing!) So production and management tasks/chain of command got murky
Here's the scenario that keeps repeating for me
-managing partner likes my fancy degrees, design centric portfolio, quirky and erudite demeanor, range of NYC project experience, thinks I'd be a great asset to the firm on high level management tasks on a wide variety of exciting project types, offers a pretty good salary to boot.
-I start off with few weeks of onboarding and light PM work, emails, coordination, odds n ends, sitting in on meetings.
-a senior PM with slightly more seniority than me asks me to jump in to put out some fires and detail 20 different parapet conditions for a CD set that should have gone out a month ago.
-i want to make a good first impression and appear like a team player, so naturally I agree. The managing partner doesn't object either. Objecting to this assignment seems like a good way to get fired during onboarding probation, right?
-I do a pretty decent job and the managing partner realizes i can run medium size projects without any drafting/BIM assistance.
-thats it! The die is cast, momentum picks up, I'm now effectively a CAD monkey bitch from here on out!
-every few months I check in with my managing partner and suggest that I should be delegating more of the CAD monkeying so I can focus on a wider range of higher level tasks. Not much changes since the status quo seems to be working for THEM. Im efficient enough that i can get everything done in 40 hours/wk, but its certainly not fun or intellectually stimulating. The mental exhaustion from these intensive repetitive production tasks and the hours spent wrangling with Revit visability and graphics settings make it increasingly difficult to build client relationships, manage process, and grow my management skills and the rut grows deeper. Since I've veered from my original mandate, my boss is less inclined to give me solid raises and bonuses since so much of my time is spent on invisible "non promotable" production tasks that in theory are below my pay grade.
- I get a new job and leave, rinse and repeat
To use a prison analogy, how do I shank the other senior PM in the first few weeks to avoid being his bitch, without breaking office decorum, so this doesn't keep happening and I can focus on the higher level tasks I was supposedly hired for? Or is the problem usually bigger than that?
terriblejell0
Jul 22, 22 12:24 pm
II agree with jose's comment above - definitely feels like you need to go for firms that have more junior folk, well-established specialized roles to take on the burden of CADing.
Stasis
Jul 22, 22 2:50 pm
'To use a prison analogy, how do I shank the other senior PM in the first few weeks to avoid being his bitch, without breaking office decorum, so this doesn't keep happening and I can focus on the higher level tasks I was supposedly hired for? Or is the problem usually bigger than that?'
This part is tough especially if that person is your direct supervisor. Even if he/she is not, they are more connected to the rest of the team than you are, so that puts you at disadvantage.. Unless that senior PM is horrible to others, design staffs tend to work with whom they are familiar with. As you are new, they put you through a proving ground. For PMs, upper management may throw you into either a new project with a new client and then try to see if you will swim or sink. They may pair you up with not-so-utilized staffs and see if you can make them work and produce..
Few things I can suggest are,
During an interview(s) with new firms, you'd have to discuss your roles and responsibilities clearly and ask what specific projects you will manage if you are to work there. Also, ask for the team structure and org chart to see where you will fit in. If you have another Sr. PM above you instead of a director level, then it's a bad sign, unless they want to groom you to become a Sr. PM by assisting in the PM Tasks, not production tasks or whatever he/she asks you to do. I know you've been trying to be helpful when you took on those production tasks, but sometimes you'd have to draw a line in the sand. You'd have to make it clear that you can't run a project until the appropriate resources are identified.
Once you start a new position or stay in the current one, you need more allies if you'd want to shank that Sr. PM. Develop good relationship with design staffs so they would want to work with you. Offer some mentorship to younger staffs or scratch other colleagues' back by advising them on the tasks that they are having difficulty with. As for PMs, the bottom line of success is how much profit you bring to the firm. Once you manage a project, you'd need to maximize profit margin by efficiently running the resources, upselling more services, or landing another project with the same client.. The last part is definitely the hardest.
You sound like you'd want to be more of a Design Director or even a Design Principal role where you focus on the earlier part of the project phases. I think it's a great path, but doing so in a firm only doing SD and DD seems risky to me as you also pointed out. If those firms do both private and public sector works, and you know that they have lot of works lined up, then it may work out for you. Design Directors at big AEC corps aren't that bad. My colleague works on broad project types in pretty much everything except housings. They may do mundane spatial planning to support engineers from time to time, but I've seen lot of cool designs for design competitions and for high profile clients. That person does master planning to early design phases, but doesn't touch technical side at all. with 20 years of experience, they can make more than $200k at large companies. It's also a cushy job without many risks as PMs(unless you piss off a client and lose a project). Only downside is that there aren't that many opportunities as they don't need that many design directors. You'd have to keep looking.
I think you have a great background, so just need to keep searching for the right one.. There is no perfect job, but there are lot of opportunities out there. Good luck
Strange Cascades
Jul 25, 22 11:26 pm
Great tips, thanks! I think you make a good point that building allies quickly so that when the Senior PM tries to dump some bullshit tasks on you, you can brush him aside in favor of other, more important projects you have already built up momentum on with your new crew. The faster you get busy with high level things, the harder it will be for other people at your level to nefariously unload their unwanted crappy tasks on you.
I think maybe when I'm closer to the 15 year mark, I can explicitly assert during interviews that "I just want to make sure that this role won't involve day-to-day drafting and production tasks" and not get any pushback
Strange Cascades
Jul 25, 22 11:27 pm
PS, can you elaborate on these Design Director roles for large AEC firms? Other than AECOM, who are the major players? Are they mainly working on public works and institutional projects?
Stasis
Jul 26, 22 12:35 pm
AECOM could be a good one and there are Jacobs, WSP, Burns & McDonnell, HDR, Stantec, Flour, and Corgan.
Few good things about these firms is that they basically have offices every state and major cities in the nation, so that you can move and work practically anywhere. There are lot of international opportunities as well, as they take on lot of big infrastructure, healthcare, biotech, mission critical, and government buildings.
Stasis
Jul 26, 22 1:26 pm
Sorry my previous response got truncated.
AECOM could be a good one and there are Jacobs, WSP, Burns & McDonnell, HDR, Stantec, Flour, and Corgan. While it isn't an EAC, but Disney has their own multi-disciplinary design team to to run their capital programs.
There are several advantages with these firms:
They basically have offices every state and major cities in the nation, so that you can move and work practically anywhere. There are also international locations where they offer relocation programs. I've met lot of Irish and British folks in my office and I worked at London office when I visited there for my wife's conference. I could have gone to Greece if it wasn't for my family situation.
These firms delve into diverse project types, so they have eggs in many baskets. They take on lot of big infrastructure, healthcare, biotech, mission critical, and government buildings. Burns & Mc does lot of mission critical (data centers) and defense works; HDR does lot of healthcare and mission critical, Flour, Jacobs, WSP, and AECOM just do everything except housing. Since they can pull larger team from different locations, they can take on larger projects $200M and above. I worked on Biotech HQs, Tech HQs, Data Centers, Manufacturing, agricultural facilities. There are also airports, ports, water/waste water, power plants etc.
Along with the diverse project types, these firms can offer longevity and stable working conditions. I've seen three engineers retire at my office after working there for 30+ years. There was an architect who worked there for 40+ years and retired. These firms bring in revenues that no Arch firm can match. For instance, HDR, Jacobs, and Stantec ranked in top 10 Arch firms in the US and they appear to make not even half of what Gensler makes. However, their Arch revenue only makes up 7% or lesser out of the total revenue that these companies bring in as whole. They have deep pockets and have projects that can support them for many years. Infrastructure and Semi conductor markets are booming right now and that will make some of these firms recession resistant. I bet you can get 20% more at EAC corps than any arch firms and won't get daunted by architect's salary as they pay lot more to engineers and PMs.
As for Design Director/Principal roles at the company i worked for, they basically develop early design concepts, set the tone for aesthetics, materials, and just rough spatial planning. They sketch out their ideas and hand them off to junior to produce drawings and renderings. They present design and its progress to the client working with me as a PM (I don't need to touch design at all). They direct people to prepare early Schematic Design set and up to the BOD, but drop off as the project moves onto CD phase. They show up towards the construction for punch walks and arrange photographers to document the finished spaces. We tend to work for high profile projects and the clients want quality finishes and features, so design directors do get opportunities to do some cool things. As the roles are clearly defined in these firms, they do not take on anything other than leading the design efforts and managing junior architects under his/her team. There is a separate Project Architect handles all technical side of the project. Only downside, as I stated before, is that we only need one for each location or for multiple locations. We use these design directors to support projects all over the world and the fact that they don't do anything more than the early design works, we don't have high demand for this role. The one director I know worked for the company for past 20 years and I don't think that person will go anywhere. However, with your background and if you are comfortable presenting to the clients, you should definitely try.
shellarchitect
Jul 25, 22 2:16 pm
Pretty similar exp as the rest here, 13-15 years of exp depending on how you count. Was on my way to full time pm, as I quit a firm and then returned a couple months later, with the understanding that this was my path. Shortly afterwards the firm was bought by a much larger firm. Fortunately I’ve been placed as a senior architect with a number of younger staff to do my drafting for me. Essentially I set the direction for each building and review their work as it progresses. this would seem to be what you really want, and is an option at firms in the 50+ people range. All the fun of Architecture with out the bullshit.
CrazyHouseCat
Jul 28, 22 1:19 pm
So you guys actually desire to become PM? Those folks who "watches from the alter", babysit clients and not playing in the game? You prefer to work in Excel (or whatever other programs for bean counting) more than Revit (has its faults, but at least is not just a spread sheet)?
For your predicament #1: having to churn out 20 sheets of bathroom elevations: get better projects, or maneuver yourself to another sector in your firm or another firm with more interesting projects. When projects are interesting (not cookie cutter), firms can rarely afford 1 man army, nor put senior folks on boring problems such as bathrooms.
Predicament #2: 1 man army: take the time to train your replacements
Predicament #3: getting into better position (in another firm or current). This requires time, planning, and work. First you must realize it is your responsibility to design and execute your career plan, much like you would any other project. your career is not your boss's job, nor is it the responsibility of the profession to create the right opportunities for you. switching firms without planning is throwing a dart in the dark. Chance of landing accidentally into the right opportunity is very low.
Repeating theme in comments from the 12-15 years of frustration: "I've done all these CAD monkey work. Why am I not advancing?" Well, the next stage of the race requires other skillsets:
leadership, which starts from service. A good leader can lead from any level. By serving, enabling, and adding value to others, you'll be asked to lead
mentorship (you've got to stop one-man army-ing, even if it takes more time to teach other, you must invest in it),
negotiation skills (when was the last time you negotiated with your boss), make it a habit to negotiate, and tell them you are practicing negotiation
presentation (once you start to speak up in inhouse settings, gorilla present to your peers, you'll start to be asked to join client presentation and interviews)
there are lots of good books on developing these "soft skills"
Once you demonstrate the above qualities, you will rise smoothly. And your predicament would become: I'm growing out of architecture too fast! I don't want to stop drawing and solving details. I hate Excel
Chad Miller
Jul 28, 22 1:40 pm
Crazy wrote:
"So you guys actually desire to become PM? Those folks who "watches from the alter", babysit clients and not playing in the game? You prefer to work in Excel (or whatever other programs for bean counting) more than Revit (has its faults, but at least is not just a spread sheet)?"
Depends on the firm. I know many where PM's are the ones who do all the design and make all the design decisions on projects.
G4tor
Jul 28, 22 5:34 pm
Recommendations for g
ood books on "softskills" development? Asking for a friend....
CrazyHouseCat
Jul 28, 22 10:01 pm
book recommendations:
john c maxwell - 360 degree leader
Stephen M R Covey - speed of trust
Stephen covey - the 3rd alternative & 7 habits of effective people
tactical recommendation for getting into your desired position. Allow me to use cars as analogy. You are a Toyota right now, a buyer is looking for a Ferrari.
You know it’s going to be very hard for you to convince the buyer to buy a Toyota when they are looking for a Ferrari. Even if they accidentally acquired you the Toyota, you’ll quickly get sorted back into their Toyota fleet.
Your natural next idea is to first become a Ferrari to align with the buyer’s expectation. But it’s the chick-n-egg problem. You can’t become Ferrari without first having the experience. You conclude: I’m stuck being a Toyota. Another problem with this approach: When you are already a Ferrari, the buyer approaches you in scrutinizing mode and will set the tone to steer you to conform to every expectation, which is not the best for your future growth.
The better option is to upsell yourself when you are becoming a Ferrari. You are not fully developed as a Ferrari, but you’ve earned racing strips (1 test away from licensing or some other indication of your trajectory), and because you transformed from a motorcycle into a Corolla in record time, it’s reasonable to believe in your imminent transformation from a Toyota to a Ferrari. You get the buyer to invest in the dream and possibilities (vs verifying capabilities). You have a better chance of being the Toyota on the Ferrari race track. And you set the tone of your transition in growth mode.
I’ve seen this “upselling while becoming” work successfully both accidentally and deliberately at all levels. People are worried that they over sell and damage their credibility. Often they wait too long. Nor should you fake it till you make it. Be honest about your true state of becoming and most leaders are excited to invest in growth and potential. Main takeaway being: don’t wait till you are fully developed to capitalize on your abilities.
joseffischer
Jul 29, 22 2:41 pm
A lot of survivor's bias baked into your advice, but I appreciated none the less.
CrazyHouseCat
Jul 29, 22 6:05 pm
Thank you @joseffischer! You are totally right. I’m super interested in hacks to beat our inherently unfair game.
For those not advancing to the next level.
CrazyHouseCat
Jul 29, 22 6:27 pm
for those not advancing to the next level. This is an even more interesting discussion.
The obvious progression within our profession goes some version of intern - junior level - mid level - senior x - associate…principal …..
The pressure to “survive” / pass on to the next level is not awesome. if you don’t grow, you are seen as unmotivated and at risk of being selected out.
There seems be a magical threshold. When folks cross over it, their memory of what it took to “be in the trenches” gets wiped. They turn into cool-aide drinking bureaucrats. Most of us don’t want to zombified like that.
Another threshold, once you cross it, you are more business person than architect.
So the question to those not advancing:
How to keep my job without advancing
How to stay happy without advancing
Many of you are not happy without advancing. But a few (including myself) have maneuvered into exactly where we want to be. My last job change was to avoid becoming principal (I know I won’t be happy, even if I get a “higher” position, so I ran away / down-shifted). It took me 4 years, 2 of which I was totally undervalued and uninspired, but now I’m near firm creating a position to allow me to do what I love and grow without risk of having to smooch clients or count beans. In the first 2 years I did fair share of draft monkeying, but had fun making even the toilet details beautify. Fact I’ve done them 100 times before, doesn’t mean there’s not something more I can elevate. That kept me happy being “stuck”.
Hi! I'm in my late 30s, licensed, and have two Ivy League degrees (BA, MArch I) and about 12 years of experience working in various firms large and small in NYC on everything from international master plans to brownstone renovations to corporate interiors to ground-up high rise residential towers. I have deliberately avoided working for starchitects because of the bad pay and work life balance.
I'm finally making six figures thanks to some aggressive job maneuvering, which feels like a major win, but I'm wondering when and how I can get to the level where I don't have to spend 50% of my time dragging insulation batt lines and tagging doors and dimensioning shaft penetrations--but rather keeping an eye on these tasks from afar.
In both my recent jobs at small to midsize firms, I was hired as a Senior Project Manager, and was under the impression from the Partners who hired me that I would be delegating most of these tasks to junior staff members. In reality, I have been operating as an army-of-one, running the projects, coordinating with the clients and consultants, but also doing all of the drafting, detailing and minutia. Unfortunately, CD set creation is still the bulk of the work and the fee in the industry as we know it. It's making me wonder if I should find a new career, as I find it completely joyless and rote. Clearly some mid/senior level people at the various offices I've worked at successfully graduated from CAD monkeying...
CAD monkeying during SD is more enjoyable, as it is more of a direct expression of the space and form in my mind's eye. CAD monkeying during CDs is about as fun as doing my taxes.
How do I make the leap to a future role that's more in line with my interests of management, staffing, business development, client relations, space planning, and design strategy; and less direct involvement in "box-ticking" production tasks, as David Graeber would say. A role where my main tools are email, the telephone and Bluebeam, and occasionally Sketchup? If I open CAD, it would be to solve a unique detail or layout challenge, rather than to crank out 20 bathroom elevations.
If I move to a larger firm, how do I explicitly assert during the interview process that I don't want to be doing any CAD monkeying and hold them to this? With 12 years of experience I don't think this is an unreasonable request. If that's not possible, I think for my next job I will try to work for an owner's rep...or other ideas?
This is the fate of 80%+ of all arch grads, really. No one stops drafting you just get PM duties added on with the same impossible deadlines as before since your principals don't know how to open Revit or print to PDF.
I'm curious about the staffing structure at the firm you're at now - How come you're still doing so much CAD work? Are the junior staff inadequately trained? Is the firm under-staffed with a top-heavy structure? Is the design process distinctly broken into a 'Design' team and a 'Production' team, with neither doing the work of the other? Are you beholden to the firm by virtue of them sponsoring your work permit? I've seen these characteristics at firms where relatively senior staff are still doing basic CAD work.
Taking the initiative to bring in new business could be one way to expand your scope. Say, you bring a new client to the firm by smart networking outside office hours. Then you take ownership of this new business. Much easier said than done as it requires a different skillset - salesmanship, presentation, a solid knowledge of the real estate business and economics - but I have seen some folks do it as they leveraged their management and business development skills to get out (mostly) of the production workflow. They did have to be vocal and assertive about the responsibilities they want - and then prove they can handle the extra risks and responsibilities. The company's leadership has to be receptive too, of course.
Now, there is a conundrum for experienced staff - the more experienced you are at something, the more likely the firm is to entrust you with handling these tasks. One way out could be levelling up - that is, you still focus on your forte in developing details and level up to become the firm's technical expert in residence. That way, you train others to do what you're good at without doing all the work yourself. Be the grizzled vet whom other staff, junior and senior, go to for technical advice.
An owner's rep, as you mentioned, is a great idea too. Given your technical experience and (I assume) project type experience, it seems like a logical progression.
My experience is it’s the revit gap. CAD you could be junior and mess things up and it wasn’t that big of a deal. With revit there’s less margin for error and a lot can go wrong if you have someone who doesn’t know what they are doing. Very rare to find people over 45-50
Rare to find people over 50 who know revit.
<EDIT>
Indeed. I personally find communication skills and personality to be the key differentiator between mid-level PMs and CAD pros. The former tend to be excellent at managing the often complicated relationships between project stakeholders, and communicating the key design issues between the firm principals and these other parties. They are also adept at managing teams. The really good ones are able to shepherd the design intent successfully to fruition through solid technical know-how, top communication skills, and the prized ability to manage people in and outside of the firm.
This is not to say the quieter folks cannot find success. A technical guru is a coveted asset. But there is a stagnant ground for mid level to senior folks who do not have the chops to manage a team/project and who mostly stick to CAD/BIM work. The competition for the PM spot is within the firm, so how one measures up to one's colleagues plays a huge role.
Mono's comment above is spot-on for determining who grows out of drafter and into a true PM role. As a whole, most Architects do not possess the skills necessary to deftly manage the client and contractor. Those that do, get pulled out from behind the computer and thrust into meetings. Lots of meetings. So many meetings. The grass really does seem greener though. Sometimes a couple days of of heads-down drafting is sublime.
We're currently hiring for a mid-level PM, even though we have somebody we're setting up for that - but that'll take another 2 you 3 years and we have work waiting now. It's not always a smooth process, especially for those coveted PMs who aren't just used car salesmen.
Same here, CAD monkey since 2010. Are you good with numbers? You could get into the analytics side of the architecture/construction industry and maybe get more freedom from drafting.
Also in my late 30s licensed but I left the typical architecture practice approximately 5 years ago for the exact same reasons you mentioned and beginning to regret it. To answer your question I think there isn't anyway out of it in a typical architecture setting because due to your experience level it is more efficient for a practice to have you do the cad work instead of an intern or junior level. My suggestion is to also leave but I warn be careful what you wish for. If you're like me your architecture brain will always be stuck in "The Upside Down," but useful.
A lot of parallels in our stories, but I'm on the other end of it, so I logged in specifically to respond. I haven't spent nearly as much time on archinect exactly because I've been so busy enjoying my new roles as a proper Sr PM.
Background: in construction from family roots, '06 grad, so only a couple years more experience than you, similar spread of touching a multitude of jobs/firms, market sectors, and sizes/scopes ground-up vs rehab, in Atlanta/southeast region.
Same trajectory from Intern:productive cad monkey:productive revit monkey: 'fixer' on projects that went south: and finally 'one-man army'. At my last firm I handled the projects for 1 1/2 of the 3 Sr principals and one VP. Firm was very top heavy, inverted pyramid, and I was also maybe 4th or 5th youngest there out of 28 production staff and 34 rain-makers/HR/marketing. I too sought raises and promotions with the idea that at some point they'd just be paying me too much to waste time on placing standard roof details on a sheet (as example).
So some honest opinion on what helped me finally make the switch:
I looked for a firm full of younger people. The regional principals are my age or less than a decade older. One of them I went to school with.
I looked for a firm that needed my expertise. I could easily fill my day answering questions and sketching out standard concepts/redlining and that would be valuable. I have other responsibilities as well, but the key here is that my time is better spent 5-fold helping juniors be productive than getting into revit myself. At the old firm, I was one of the more productive draftsman, but everyone at the watering hole generally knew how to put buildings together. They didn't need me for anything but "make permit sets, get paid".
I asked for even more money. Honestly, if you've just broken 6-figs in NYC, I think you're still on the wrong side of the "line" between production vs management.
Finally, and likely the most important, I've THROWN myself at social training. I was honest about my history as a one-man army and my lack of team experience with the firm and my desire to learn. I've been reading tons of books on the subject, both provided to me by the firm and sought out on my own. I'm also attending leadership seminars, specifically the idea of democratic leadership and consensus building, as my role is more of an experienced team player than a CEO or director of design type position. The idea is to learn how to spot obstacles for your team and provide your team the tools to grow to meet the demand/tasks provided. I have a lot to learn still. We took a caliper test (there are many types out there) that told me what I already knew, I struggle with empathy and my "lead by example" model can morph easily into creating unrealistic/inhuman expectations. "sure, Josef can do it, but he's a one-man army workaholic"... I'm focusing on being more human and allowing people time to breathe and voice their own opinions.
TL:DR It's been night and day since this move after years of struggling with exactly what you're describing. Build up your emotional intelligence and ask firm leadership to hire junior people so you can get a chance to learn how to lead. If they aren't serious about it, jump ship.
What books can you recommend from your social training? I'm working my way into a low-level management position at my (quite small) firm, and I'm currently in that one-man-army stage of my career, being fairly recently licensed.
Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence was really helpful for me, but is a thick read
I liked the story-telling of Patrick Lencioni's Getting Naked
I also read Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and influence people and Keith Ferrazzi's never eat alone, which felt more gimicky and/or bent towards relationship building and getting ahead. They were on the list from my mentor, and I feel like I got the point he was hoping they would make, but I also feel like my place is more sergeant in the trenches than general in the board room.
I'm currently rereading How to work with and lead people not like you, by Kelly McDonald.
Just 2 year of experience here... a question:
Is doing CAD work for 50% of your time still considered as CAD monkey to most people here? At my current firm, I kind of seeing myslf becoming the "one man army" once I get to more senior position, and I am looking forward to it. It does not sound that bad. I do not want to become a senior member in 10 - 15 years, and starting to lose my software/drafting edge. (A big caveat is that the office adhere very strict to 40 hr work week except principals.)
It's relative. What are you spending the other 50% on?
coordinating with GC & consultants &RFIs, junior staff to prepare sets, pricipals and client for design, site visits & sample reviews,... are what I am thinking of.
That's a 40+ hour job right there plus the 40+ hour drafting job you have right now and likely not for double the salary.
Depends on the size of the projects and how well they were done flatroof. Right now I'm dong CA on two projects, doing conceptual design on one, and doing CD's on another. Each project is around 10,000sf. I'm also mentoring junior staff. For this workload I'm doing 40 hours a week. I still have time to post here too.
^ This. I'm in a similar boat at the moment, and I gotta say that Revit makes CDs a lot easier than CAD ever was, as far as just pushing through basic drafted views (plans, sections, elevations). It would probably take me 55+ hours a week to do everything I do in CAD. Instead I do 40 hours like normal, and then use extra time to operate as ad-hoc BIM manager to catch everyone else up to speed as our firm transitions to Revit fully.
same issue. BA and MArch from top programs. Work for a large firm earning very good money. Often get stuck with modest size simple projects where I am flying solo on all the drafting and revit model management in addition to doing all the PA and some PM duties. Bulk of my time is dealing with revit visibility issues and talking to the underlings of my counterparts at our consultants regarding their revit models. If I join larger projects they have me doing primarily consultant coordination and model management, and none of the sexy stuff (no detailing, no building of the model, no going to meetings where I can actually learn about novel building systems). I don’t even have time to redline drawings. All I’m doing is fielding coordination and visibility questions from junior staff because none of the older people know revit.
I don’t want to be spending my time dealing with day to day revit bullshit. I hate revit. It is terrible software. I didn’t have to deal with this garbage back when I was doing everything in CAD.
Plus I’m far from a revit expert. I have junior staff showing me how to do things all the time.
man... i feel sorry for you. Doing correct visibility setting in Revit is not very intuitive and people can mess up. My architects did not set the cut plane and visibility below the cut plane right for the roof plan, so the scuppers did not appear on the final plans.. They should have caught that during the QA/QC but unfortunately, that fell through the crack.. 16 months into construction, the GC found that and charged CO for those.. Even though I resented that this is something the GC could have caught on their end, it was our fault for not showing them on our plan.. Whoever's modeling in BIM really ought to pay close attention on what appear on the final printed set....
This is a core issue in the profession. I have seen that there are people who are just very technically-oriented and happier in production than in roles with creative or administrative responsibility. However, I still find it difficult to believe that someone would go through the extreme rigor of a 5-year BArch or a 3-year MArch program, owing a couple hundred thousand dollars, and tolerate doing production or administrative work for a decade or two at half the salary of an insurance salesman. But, we are all different. And we are all motivated differently.
" CAD monkeying during CDs is about as fun as doing my taxes." Funny! And I completely agree. When I was younger, I was fascinated with green architecture and building practices, then a LEED developed into something akin to NYC building codes, and I lost interest. I didn't like the extreme level of bureaucracy and detail/minutia. I was also pretty technically-oriented at an earlier point in my career and could detail all sorts of water and thermal envelope conditions. But at a certain point, it all just became so rote and soul-less. I am a right-brain person and the right side of my brain was atrophying.
I pretty much muscled my way into design. When it was apparent to one or two Partners that "this dude can draw!", I was given more opportunity. Proposals are a great way to get your feet in the door because usually the timeframe for developing the proposal and any included design concepts is really short. So if one can develop "eye candy" in a short period of time, you become a real asset and pave the path for being a "designer". Also true for the PM side of things. The proposal will need to include proposed project schedules, budgets, and so forth.
It sounds like you would also be happy in a traditional Project Manager role. Personally I cannot see how those people function. The required level of management, patience and fortitude is so great, I would have a nervous breakdown. Plus, many of them are operating on simultaneous projects. Just WAYYY to stressful for me, and doesn't feed the right-brain whatsoever.
If you can demonstrate talent and deliverables (I really do hate that term) in the area that you see yourself being happy, you will likely be allowed to move toward that comfort zone. Work independently if needed and bring your work to the team to demonstrate that you have ambition and talent. If management wont allow that or can't see that you would be happier and more productive in a realm that you were happier in, than the firm is probably not someplace that you want to be much longer. Work up your chops, document your body of knowledge in your resume and portfolio and move on. You typically make the biggest salary jumps when you switch to a new work environment, and it's a lot easier to sell your "new self" to a new employer, doing what you're passionate about.
Good luck on your journey.
I'll add that wherever you are, its useful to have clearly defined roles and boundaries. If you move to a PM role, there's absolutely no reason you should still be drafting. That's not what a PM does and it ineffective use of your time and energy in the firm. Make sure you get a job description and suss out whether a new firm honors boundaries before signing on.
If they ask you to take BIM/CAD test, then it is a bad sign. :)
Strange Cascades,
Hi I am a Sr. Project Manager at a large EAC firm, but I did started out an architect and became a PM at one point. In my 15 years of experience, arch firms tend to blur roles/responsibilities of a PM. As you shared, I sometimes took on production work - setting up Revit models, client presentation using renderings, CD sets, and CA work. It was tough and drained me really fast.
I left that job and became a Sr. PM at EAC firms where they clearly defined roles and responsibilities of a PM per their job description. I have been doing purely PM tasks - Business development, Client relations, project planning and execution, and risk management. No drafting, renderings, or any production work. They got me a small laptop and didn't even install AutoCAD or Revit, so I haven't really touched drawings for past 8 years or so. Salary range for Sr. PM in my area (SF) and your experience level may be around $130K-200K+.
However, being a typical PM brings another set of headaches and pain. As someone mentioned above, you'd have to work through people to get things done, so yeah patience and fortitude. Even though their works aren't that great, you'd have to be positive and reinforce the good working and collaboration atmosphere. You'd have to push them little by little to do better. You are on the hook for any screw ups your design team do and have to defend company's image/reputation against outsiders. You live and die by each project.. It feels like a death if the client just moves on from you (even though you didn't cause it). You'd have to be good at writing proposals and interpreting the contract in order to avoid any ugly situations down the road. Some clients are nasty about scope, cost, and changes... Some are bullies who pushes you around to adhere to their needs then if things don't turn out the way they wanted, you'd be the first one to blame..
In larger EAC or PM firms nowadays, there are Design Managers and Project Managers. For larger projects, they have a PM overseeing the entire project team handling typical PM tasks I mentioned, but assign another manager, DM, to oversee the design related tasks - spearheading design drawings production, design coordination internal/external, BIM management (working with a BIM manager), etc. Also, construction companies hire a DM as a liaison between the Design team and the Construction team, so performing constructability reviews, interpreting CD sets, putting together submittal schedules, and overseeing coordination between AOR/EOR and different trades. If you still want to be a manager but also have hands in the design process, then I think a Design Manager could be a path for you.
I think there are many paths for PMs out there. You can be an owner's rep, or work as a PM for their companies. Here in the SF Bay Area, both tech and bio-tech companies are looking for PMs to run their capital expenditure projects. In this case, you become a client working with the design team to deliver building projects.
Thanks so much for all these great responses! I feel like I should respond individually to everyone, but a few things really hit close to home--like the spending 20 hours a week arguing about Revit Vis/graphics settings with the consultants BIM manager, then the switcheroo type things where you get told your job description would be one thing, and then it turns into a production grind. Also the situation where you are translating ideas for an older partner who can't use a computer to save his life. I will add, I'm very right brained (but also analytical) so being the seasoned technical detailing expert is definitely not the niche I'd want to pursue. Also, I'm fully American, so don't have any visa issues that can be used as leverage against me!
Should I actually pursue firms that only do SD and DD, firms that farm the CDs out to SLCE? That might reduce the amount of rote tedious tasks, but the downside might be lower pay and less job security? Or are design-only firms quite stable and successful these days in comparison to the pre 2008 era and worth another look? I think I have the portfolio, academic pedigree and aesthetic sensibilities to make a push for this...go the "Design Director" route, but most firms in NYC that I spoke to the past year were looking for technical/production staff. Or they gave me these murky job descriptions where it was unclear if it'd be a strictly PM role in the CD/CA phase, or more of a production grind situation? Again, that's where most of the manpower is needed it seems, right?
The most fulfilling job I had was actually at a hybrid/design multifamily development firm. It was super niche and their business model fell apart when market conditions changed--I haven't been able to find another firm remotely similar to what they did. But for a couple years it was both very creative and entrepreneurial at the same time. The focus was on design (good layouts, cool lighting and millwork), and then the actual construction, with minimal production and extremely lean drawing sets, since they were effectively their own GC and could figure things out quickly in the field.
My current office is both understaffed and top heavy, and it's only a 10 person firm. There's not really junior technical staff to delegate to, but they don't mind dumping low level tasks on me.
My old office had an extremely flat hierarchy where there were partners in their 60s and then there were a bunch of people with 3-10 years experience without much differentiation. Almost no one mid-career. As a result my boss couldn't quite understand that someone with 8-10 years of experience would actually have pretty different aspirations for what their day-to-day would look like compared to someone with 3 years. We were all young whippersnappers to him! There were also no interns or fresh grads to dump really boring stuff onto (though this was probably a good thing!) So production and management tasks/chain of command got murky
Here's the scenario that keeps repeating for me
-managing partner likes my fancy degrees, design centric portfolio, quirky and erudite demeanor, range of NYC project experience, thinks I'd be a great asset to the firm on high level management tasks on a wide variety of exciting project types, offers a pretty good salary to boot.
-I start off with few weeks of onboarding and light PM work, emails, coordination, odds n ends, sitting in on meetings.
-a senior PM with slightly more seniority than me asks me to jump in to put out some fires and detail 20 different parapet conditions for a CD set that should have gone out a month ago.
-i want to make a good first impression and appear like a team player, so naturally I agree. The managing partner doesn't object either. Objecting to this assignment seems like a good way to get fired during onboarding probation, right?
-I do a pretty decent job and the managing partner realizes i can run medium size projects without any drafting/BIM assistance.
-thats it! The die is cast, momentum picks up, I'm now effectively a CAD monkey bitch from here on out!
-every few months I check in with my managing partner and suggest that I should be delegating more of the CAD monkeying so I can focus on a wider range of higher level tasks. Not much changes since the status quo seems to be working for THEM. Im efficient enough that i can get everything done in 40 hours/wk, but its certainly not fun or intellectually stimulating. The mental exhaustion from these intensive repetitive production tasks and the hours spent wrangling with Revit visability and graphics settings make it increasingly difficult to build client relationships, manage process, and grow my management skills and the rut grows deeper. Since I've veered from my original mandate, my boss is less inclined to give me solid raises and bonuses since so much of my time is spent on invisible "non promotable" production tasks that in theory are below my pay grade.
- I get a new job and leave, rinse and repeat
To use a prison analogy, how do I shank the other senior PM in the first few weeks to avoid being his bitch, without breaking office decorum, so this doesn't keep happening and I can focus on the higher level tasks I was supposedly hired for? Or is the problem usually bigger than that?
II agree with jose's comment above - definitely feels like you need to go for firms that have more junior folk, well-established specialized roles to take on the burden of CADing.
'To use a prison analogy, how do I shank the other senior PM in the first few weeks to avoid being his bitch, without breaking office decorum, so this doesn't keep happening and I can focus on the higher level tasks I was supposedly hired for? Or is the problem usually bigger than that?'
This part is tough especially if that person is your direct supervisor. Even if he/she is not, they are more connected to the rest of the team than you are, so that puts you at disadvantage.. Unless that senior PM is horrible to others, design staffs tend to work with whom they are familiar with. As you are new, they put you through a proving ground. For PMs, upper management may throw you into either a new project with a new client and then try to see if you will swim or sink. They may pair you up with not-so-utilized staffs and see if you can make them work and produce..
Few things I can suggest are,
During an interview(s) with new firms, you'd have to discuss your roles and responsibilities clearly and ask what specific projects you will manage if you are to work there. Also, ask for the team structure and org chart to see where you will fit in. If you have another Sr. PM above you instead of a director level, then it's a bad sign, unless they want to groom you to become a Sr. PM by assisting in the PM Tasks, not production tasks or whatever he/she asks you to do. I know you've been trying to be helpful when you took on those production tasks, but sometimes you'd have to draw a line in the sand. You'd have to make it clear that you can't run a project until the appropriate resources are identified.
Once you start a new position or stay in the current one, you need more allies if you'd want to shank that Sr. PM. Develop good relationship with design staffs so they would want to work with you. Offer some mentorship to younger staffs or scratch other colleagues' back by advising them on the tasks that they are having difficulty with. As for PMs, the bottom line of success is how much profit you bring to the firm. Once you manage a project, you'd need to maximize profit margin by efficiently running the resources, upselling more services, or landing another project with the same client.. The last part is definitely the hardest.
You sound like you'd want to be more of a Design Director or even a Design Principal role where you focus on the earlier part of the project phases. I think it's a great path, but doing so in a firm only doing SD and DD seems risky to me as you also pointed out. If those firms do both private and public sector works, and you know that they have lot of works lined up, then it may work out for you. Design Directors at big AEC corps aren't that bad. My colleague works on broad project types in pretty much everything except housings. They may do mundane spatial planning to support engineers from time to time, but I've seen lot of cool designs for design competitions and for high profile clients. That person does master planning to early design phases, but doesn't touch technical side at all. with 20 years of experience, they can make more than $200k at large companies. It's also a cushy job without many risks as PMs(unless you piss off a client and lose a project). Only downside is that there aren't that many opportunities as they don't need that many design directors. You'd have to keep looking.
I think you have a great background, so just need to keep searching for the right one.. There is no perfect job, but there are lot of opportunities out there. Good luck
Great tips, thanks! I think you make a good point that building allies quickly so that when the Senior PM tries to dump some bullshit tasks on you, you can brush him aside in favor of other, more important projects you have already built up momentum on with your new crew. The faster you get busy with high level things, the harder it will be for other people at your level to nefariously unload their unwanted crappy tasks on you. I think maybe when I'm closer to the 15 year mark, I can explicitly assert during interviews that "I just want to make sure that this role won't involve day-to-day drafting and production tasks" and not get any pushback
PS, can you elaborate on these Design Director roles for large AEC firms? Other than AECOM, who are the major players? Are they mainly working on public works and institutional projects?
AECOM could be a good one and there are Jacobs, WSP, Burns & McDonnell, HDR, Stantec, Flour, and Corgan. Few good things about these firms is that they basically have offices every state and major cities in the nation, so that you can move and work practically anywhere. There are lot of international opportunities as well, as they take on lot of big infrastructure, healthcare, biotech, mission critical, and government buildings.
Sorry my previous response got truncated.
AECOM could be a good one and there are Jacobs, WSP, Burns & McDonnell, HDR, Stantec, Flour, and Corgan. While it isn't an EAC, but Disney has their own multi-disciplinary design team to to run their capital programs.
There are several advantages with these firms:
They basically have offices every state and major cities in the nation, so that you can move and work practically anywhere. There are also international locations where they offer relocation programs. I've met lot of Irish and British folks in my office and I worked at London office when I visited there for my wife's conference. I could have gone to Greece if it wasn't for my family situation.
These firms delve into diverse project types, so they have eggs in many baskets. They take on lot of big infrastructure, healthcare, biotech, mission critical, and government buildings. Burns & Mc does lot of mission critical (data centers) and defense works; HDR does lot of healthcare and mission critical, Flour, Jacobs, WSP, and AECOM just do everything except housing. Since they can pull larger team from different locations, they can take on larger projects $200M and above. I worked on Biotech HQs, Tech HQs, Data Centers, Manufacturing, agricultural facilities. There are also airports, ports, water/waste water, power plants etc.
Along with the diverse project types, these firms can offer longevity and stable working conditions. I've seen three engineers retire at my office after working there for 30+ years. There was an architect who worked there for 40+ years and retired. These firms bring in revenues that no Arch firm can match. For instance, HDR, Jacobs, and Stantec ranked in top 10 Arch firms in the US and they appear to make not even half of what Gensler makes. However, their Arch revenue only makes up 7% or lesser out of the total revenue that these companies bring in as whole. They have deep pockets and have projects that can support them for many years. Infrastructure and Semi conductor markets are booming right now and that will make some of these firms recession resistant. I bet you can get 20% more at EAC corps than any arch firms and won't get daunted by architect's salary as they pay lot more to engineers and PMs.
As for Design Director/Principal roles at the company i worked for, they basically develop early design concepts, set the tone for aesthetics, materials, and just rough spatial planning. They sketch out their ideas and hand them off to junior to produce drawings and renderings. They present design and its progress to the client working with me as a PM (I don't need to touch design at all). They direct people to prepare early Schematic Design set and up to the BOD, but drop off as the project moves onto CD phase. They show up towards the construction for punch walks and arrange photographers to document the finished spaces. We tend to work for high profile projects and the clients want quality finishes and features, so design directors do get opportunities to do some cool things. As the roles are clearly defined in these firms, they do not take on anything other than leading the design efforts and managing junior architects under his/her team. There is a separate Project Architect handles all technical side of the project. Only downside, as I stated before, is that we only need one for each location or for multiple locations. We use these design directors to support projects all over the world and the fact that they don't do anything more than the early design works, we don't have high demand for this role. The one director I know worked for the company for past 20 years and I don't think that person will go anywhere. However, with your background and if you are comfortable presenting to the clients, you should definitely try.
Pretty similar exp as the rest here, 13-15 years of exp depending on how you count. Was on my way to full time pm, as I quit a firm and then returned a couple months later, with the understanding that this was my path.
Shortly afterwards the firm was bought by a much larger firm. Fortunately I’ve been placed as a senior architect with a number of younger staff to do my drafting for me. Essentially I set the direction for each building and review their work as it progresses. this would seem to be what you really want, and is an option at firms in the 50+ people range.
All the fun of Architecture with out the bullshit.
So you guys actually desire to become PM? Those folks who "watches from the alter", babysit clients and not playing in the game? You prefer to work in Excel (or whatever other programs for bean counting) more than Revit (has its faults, but at least is not just a spread sheet)?
For your predicament #1: having to churn out 20 sheets of bathroom elevations: get better projects, or maneuver yourself to another sector in your firm or another firm with more interesting projects. When projects are interesting (not cookie cutter), firms can rarely afford 1 man army, nor put senior folks on boring problems such as bathrooms.
Predicament #2: 1 man army: take the time to train your replacements
Predicament #3: getting into better position (in another firm or current). This requires time, planning, and work. First you must realize it is your responsibility to design and execute your career plan, much like you would any other project. your career is not your boss's job, nor is it the responsibility of the profession to create the right opportunities for you. switching firms without planning is throwing a dart in the dark. Chance of landing accidentally into the right opportunity is very low.
Repeating theme in comments from the 12-15 years of frustration: "I've done all these CAD monkey work. Why am I not advancing?" Well, the next stage of the race requires other skillsets:
Once you demonstrate the above qualities, you will rise smoothly. And your predicament would become: I'm growing out of architecture too fast! I don't want to stop drawing and solving details. I hate Excel
Crazy wrote:
"So you guys actually desire to become PM? Those folks who "watches from the alter", babysit clients and not playing in the game? You prefer to work in Excel (or whatever other programs for bean counting) more than Revit (has its faults, but at least is not just a spread sheet)?"
Depends on the firm. I know many where PM's are the ones who do all the design and make all the design decisions on projects.
Recommendations for g ood books on "softskills" development? Asking for a friend....
book recommendations:
tactical recommendation for getting into your desired position. Allow me to use cars as analogy. You are a Toyota right now, a buyer is looking for a Ferrari.
I’ve seen this “upselling while becoming” work successfully both accidentally and deliberately at all levels. People are worried that they over sell and damage their credibility. Often they wait too long. Nor should you fake it till you make it. Be honest about your true state of becoming and most leaders are excited to invest in growth and potential. Main takeaway being: don’t wait till you are fully developed to capitalize on your abilities.
A lot of survivor's bias baked into your advice, but I appreciated none the less.
Thank you @joseffischer! You are totally right. I’m super interested in hacks to beat our inherently unfair game.
For those not advancing to the next level.
for those not advancing to the next level. This is an even more interesting discussion.
The obvious progression within our profession goes some version of intern - junior level - mid level - senior x - associate…principal …..
So the question to those not advancing:
Many of you are not happy without advancing. But a few (including myself) have maneuvered into exactly where we want to be. My last job change was to avoid becoming principal (I know I won’t be happy, even if I get a “higher” position, so I ran away / down-shifted).
It took me 4 years, 2 of which I was totally undervalued and uninspired, but now I’m near firm creating a position to allow me to do what I love and grow without risk of having to smooch clients or count beans.
In the first 2 years I did fair share of draft monkeying, but had fun making even the toilet details beautify. Fact I’ve done them 100 times before, doesn’t mean there’s not something more I can elevate. That kept me happy being “stuck”.