Just got a job offer in California (Bay Area) at a rate of 75k a year with 3 years of experience, do you think this is below / average / market rate?
Should I negotiate?
rcz1001
Jun 3, 22 9:51 pm
Is this 3 years of experience post-licensure?
If so, it might be ok if that is your base salary and you have additional for housing and healthcare and other benefits in the benefits package portion if you are in the Bay Area. If you are in other areas where the cost of living is lower, $75K total package isn't bad.
If you are three years experience after graduating from college, $75K isn't particularly bad especially if you are not even licensed yet. It can be good. I wouldn't try to push for more if you are not even licensed yet... especially if the $75K is just the base salary and you have additional in the form of benefits that covers health care benefits and housing in addition to standard stuff employers are required to pay on top of wage/salaries. At least, not yet. This pay level is does seem like a fair amount because often I see similar pre-licensure positions with only 3 years requirements being in the $50-60K range. It would actually be a good sign for the profession is that is become the norm for positions that doesn't require a license to be in the position.
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 3, 22 10:55 pm
after college! There is no housing, but healthcare is included. The job market is currently short of workers and there is a high demand for houses.
rcz1001
Jun 4, 22 1:13 am
If you can find an affordable (reasonable for the area) without huge outrageous commute, I think it can be workable. So its hard to say. That would be great where I am although places are getting more expensive even where I am but I am not sure with SF Bay area because that's something that's going out of control from what have heard but don't know first hand. I am impress with the offer given for this profession for that little number of years as 3. Not to claim its bad, just limited and understandable.
zoomingcorgis
Jun 6, 22 4:35 am
Rcz1001, you don't know what you're talking about and you've clearly never worked in san francisco as an architect if you think 75k is a decent salary here. I have friends who don't have licenses with BArch's that make mid 80's before benefits in SF. To actually answer the question - realize that HUD considers bay area low income for an individual to be low 80's. Please don't take rcz1001's advice. It's not grounded in reality.
rcz1001
Jun 6, 22 5:50 am
P4tricia, you do know the difference between base salary and salary + housing benefits. Another thing, you talk about a person with a BArch degree with no license but fail to disclose how many years of experience. In Bay Area, you don't rent an apartment by yourself. You rent with roommates and that rent is split. It it costs $4.2K a month then you split that across 3 or 4 roommates. When you do that, its livable but you have less space per person but even a studio can house 4 people if they organize the space efficiently. However, guess what, the bay area is quite a big area from different context of what that means. Even when you do some search, you might have to commute but when you're about 1 hour outside the metropolitan area, the price and spatial conditions is different than living in downtown areas of Bay area city. There's apartments in SF that you can rent into for under $2K a month. Ever looked on Apartments.com and others. There are places. Yes, you have to shop around but you may have to commute to work to get but if you can commute or work even allows for some flexible hybrid arrangements between in-person and remote working, it isn't necessarily bad when you consider commuting (and using an economical fuel/efficient vehicle and maybe public transit) and commute when you need to. The fact that Nammo is even getting more than $60K with only 3 years of experience when the national and even average for the west coast or even the average for the whole of California is less than $60K salary in ARCHITECTURE. Now, if there is something I would negotiate for, I would negotiate terms for either partial or full coverage for housing. When I say partial, I'm talking half the cost as a benefit on top of the base salary. Full coverage would be great but say 50% coverage for housing based on SF Bay area average apartment prices a month. This would be what I would suggest as an option. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend an increase in base salary amount as a starting amount with only 3 years but over time, with 5 year and then at the 10 year mark may have increases, based on experience steps, in addition to annual inflation/minimum wage increase adjustments. Who you are talking about with mid-$80K could have been someone with a B.Arch, but not licensed yet has 10 years of experience. Not exactly an apple to apple comparison. Lets not assume all apartments are $4.2K to $5K a month. I wouldn't recommend going into some place with more than $2K a month without a spouse/roommate to split the cost. So, consider things for what they are. I'm just impressed with the base salary amount. Now, I think some firms can potentially make for some accommodation of housing or portion as a benefit even if it doesn't cover all, it can help. It is floating the idea to help in retaining work. I know and understand that apartments costs have dramatically risen but lets be friggin' honest. If all the apartments cost $4K to 5K a month per tenant or for a 1 person studio, they would have to mandate a minimum wage of $45 to $50 an hour. Seriously. Lets also remember that not everything you have to buy locally in the hyperinflated neighborhoods of the Bay area. I know people in the Bay area. It's not always as bad as some make it out to be. Lets be real. If you can't find a place for a lower amount then perhaps its circumstance but you probably could have found a less expensive place after a little bit and relocate yet still work in the Bay area. People do it all the time.
rcz1001
Jun 6, 22 6:14 am
In short, prices runs the gamut. If you think graduating and a few years of experience that you are going to be paid $125K a year so you can have the luxury apartments. No one gives a f--- about your apartment especially if you are an employee. It's the champaigne and $1000 bottle of wine lifestyle dream like the fancy rich f---s with a multi-million dollar yacht. You're not a top rate drug lord for crying out loud. There is a bit of culture pressure but guess what, don't be a dumb ass. You're in the wrong profession for that life style because most of those starchitects came from wealthy well-to do families with a trust fund that enabled them to do things that would take a lot longer and a lot of incredible luck just get to at the pinnacle of your career what most of them started at. We are still somewhat of a social-economic class caste system although not direct because the friction to moving up in the socio-economic class is difficult when you go above a certain level. It's easy to go down not up... like gravity. This is the top down pressure of our culture. You can make do and go further if you sacrifice some creature comfort and luxury for a little more plain life for an apartment.
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 6, 22 12:25 pm
Alright guys! all I ask is 75k a good base salary and should I take the job... lol
Stasis
Jun 6, 22 1:24 pm
Do you have any offer to compare with? In my opinion, I think it is decent for an architect with 3 years exp. here in the SF Bay Area.. You shouldn't compare Architect's salary to any other industry (especially tech), as it is not realistic at all. Perhaps you should ask that company how often they do performance review. Some arch offices in SF are shady and never offer this unless you ask for it, whereas some office have annual performance review that result in salary increase. Having worked in this area and many offices, I know lot of Bay Area firms. If you can direct message me their name, then I can offer few insights.
rcz1001
Jun 6, 22 3:00 pm
Stasis, this is for a position that is pre-licensure (3 years experience after graduation... prior to licensure). I think given that, your point aboves stands even better for someone who isn't even licensed yet. I think given the details, it is actually pretty darn decent for this profession. You still need to look for apartments that are more in the affordable range. I'd try to find a place where you're monthly rent is at $2K or less. This way, you can afford it from that. If you're stuck with apartments that costs more than $2000 a month, maybe a little negotiation for a housing benefit to make up the difference so you have a fair amount to live from. Considering your actual take-home amount may be only $60,000 a year or ~$5000 a month. You will want to consider looking for a place you can get for $1K to $1.5K a month if possible. Some for less than that may be an option. There are options out there but if they can contribute to 50% of your monthly housing expense as a benefit, then you can possibly look for $1.5K to $2.5K range and still have a decent amount from your take-home to cover other living expenses and that the Bay area has certain expenses that are higher than national averages. There's a certain degree of quality of life issues that matters yet you also don't want to come off with sounding too demanding and also what you may offer. How close are you to licensure nammo? Stasis may have some good advice on this.
Stasis
Jun 6, 22 7:00 pm
If nammoadiaphat is getting paid on bi-weekly basis, $75,000 and 70% take home pay, then it is around $2,020. I found few studio APTs in Oakland below $1,400..
You would want to live near BART, AC Transit Line, or Ferry line. You sound like a young person, so i think you would like cities like Berkeley or Oakland, pretty hipster towns. Alameda is great as they have good bus line and ferry connection to SF (takes only 25 mins). I get car sick and BART is exploding with people, I always prefer the ferry ride. Transportation is significant cost, so you need to consider this too.
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 6, 22 8:54 pm
hey, it's actually in Menlo Park near Palo Alto, doing high end design residential
firm.. Cant rent here tbh, probably I will live in the east bay.
rcz1001
Jun 6, 22 9:10 pm
You don't have to live in the same town/city as where you work. You just have to be able to reliably get to work in a reasonable manner preferably with a economical means but that is something to consider. I would recommend being close enough to be able to commute within 1 hour but preferably within 30 minutes if possible. With commuting, you need to plan your day to include time to travel even under poor traffic conditions or at least plan your commute time to make it through key bottleneck areas before all the bozos are in those areas. There are peak times and less peak times for traffic. Peak time for traffic means slow congested traffic. We know that 7 to 9 AM... bad. 4 to 7pm bad traffic time. Your days may be long. If they allow some hybrid in-person/remote flexible schedule... great. You'll need to figure that out as you go. The two main points in time are universal for major cities as that is the time people are on the road, taking kids to school/daycare and arriving at work. This is how things are universally in every big city metropolitan area of the United States. Some can provide you more specific advices about SF Bay area. I agree with Stasis above. You're take-home per month being around $4000 (if its a 70% take-home) or around $2K per paycheck (with two checks a month or every other week). I believe you'll be able to do fine.
Stasis
Jun 6, 22 11:11 pm
Nammoadiaphat, driving from East Bay to South Bay (Palo Alto, San Jose, Menlo Park, etc) is horrible...and Palo Alto and Menlo Park are only for Zuckerberg and his buddies. Stinking 880 has always traffic that would take easily 2 hours each way.. I suggest Watsonville or towards the South of SouthBay.
Stasis
Jun 6, 22 11:15 pm
Sorry I meant Morgan Hill. Zillow shows some 2k/month in Palo Alto and San Jose. There are only few. Good luck
rcz1001
Jun 6, 22 11:24 pm
Also check out Apartments.com for the San Jose area which is to the east of Menlo Park. You can even set the filter to establish the max price point.
Lol, you can't expect any housing support in SF Bay Area.. I once rented a studio for 4.2k/month in Fidi in SF... How good is your healthcare and is there 401k match? How about flexible time or overtime policy? You have weigh in the entire benefits package. However, I'd say 75k for 3 years seems pretty good even for SF. I was making that amount after 7 years back in 2014..
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 4, 22 12:12 am
in the middle of inflation, everything is way expensive nowadays...
reallynotmyname
Jun 4, 22 9:13 am
If I recall correctly, the rule of thumb in financial planning is that your monthly housing expense ideally should be 25% of your monthly pay. That said, the people I know in NYC and SF are probably spending more like 40-50%. Price some apartments and see how things look. In some high cost cities, there's a tacit expectation that you will live with roommates or commute many miles and the salaries make no effort to keep up with nearby rents.
When they were young at the 3 year mark of their careers, my friends in SF rented bedrooms in large apartments with 4-5 roommates in the other bedrooms. Just about all of them eventually relocated to less expensive places in the US.
Stasis
Jun 5, 22 2:30 am
I have been living in SF Bay Area for past 20 years and that's about right. We kept moving farther away from the SF for more affordable and livable places. With COVID and my firms going full remote, it doesn't hurt at all. It seems really difficult to live in the city alone.. you would have to get housemates or get married.. When I got married 9 years ago, I was only making 52K (3yrs) and my wife 46K... It didn't seem all that bad at that time.. funny thing is even though we now make 3 times or more, we don't feel much richer.
sidewinder
Jun 7, 22 12:40 pm
Hey - jumping on this thread. I have 3 years of experience and looking for a job in Chicago. I know Chicago is way different in terms of cost of living than SF. AIA Comp Report has the range for 3-5 years from 55k to 65k. Though, I'm hearing people are asking for 60k-ish starting. Anyone in Chicago have advice for me?
przemula
Jun 11, 22 1:02 pm
I live in Chicago and have ~4 years experience, making little under 60k currently (around 59, I'm being paid hourly). Recently a firm reached out to me and I asked for 62k which they agreed for, but I turned it down though because they do different type of work than I'd like to work on. With that being said, I'm updating my porftolio currently and passing first ARE this summer, and I'll be asking for 65-70k, and you shouldn't ask for less than 65k either (recently spoke with my coworker and she has similar exp to mine and makes 50k. I feel like we're all underpaid, at least in small firms). A lot of people would be surprised how low the actual salaries are in this area
Stasis
Jun 7, 22 1:42 pm
Nammoadiaphat,
I realized that one of my messages were truncated and didn't get uploaded.. I can share few insights on the career paths here in SF Bay Area. As you may already know, two most predominant industries here are tech and biotech. There is a joke about someone walking into a bar in NYC soon learns that one works in finance, one works in retail, one works as an architect etc.... When you walk into a bar in SF, you'll find folks working in jobs like NYC, but they all have prefix 'tech' in front of them - tech architect (in house designers), tech project manager, tech lawyers, etc.. Of course, there are small niches in housing, civic, education, commercial but there are consistent clients from these two major industries. This means more stability and job opportunities for architects who work with these clients. When I was younger, I wanted to explore and find building types I wanted to work on, so I tried different firms that do different works. Skyscrapers seemed appealing but it's so darn hard to build one in SF (should read up on shadow ordinance in SF), or in the rest of the world.. Broad experience is good, but having deep experience in few project types matters more down the road. So, learning how to design spaces for tech and biotech can really enhance one's chance to grow their career exponentially. With 10+ years of experience, many architects here work for tech/biotech companies later on with much higher pay. I think there are opportunities out here where you can thrive if you look at the right place.
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 7, 22 2:52 pm
Thank you, I have 3 years in Residential single famliy house. I heard rumors that it is good to start as a small residential design firm. But it is not great career advancement in a long run? Do you have any recomendation on the type of tech firm in the bay that I can take a look?
Stasis
Jun 7, 22 4:53 pm
Hi small firms because they are small and tend not to have defined design and production team settings, there are opportunities to work on different things, from concept design to construction administration. If this is the case, then you get really good wholesome training. I believed that I started in a small 4 persons office.. However, 2008 recession hit and small offices couldn't find more works to keep me, so there is a risk with small firms too. I think single residential is a small niche in that it would make it difficult for one to move another building types. I think the opposite may be true too. I have no single residential experience, so it will be challenging for me to apply for a job in such places.
Stasis
Jun 7, 22 5:23 pm
Regarding your question, tech companies look for architects to design two major building types - Workspace and Data Centers. To throw few names, Gensler, Corgan, DGA, DES, Salas O'Brien, Burns & McDonnell, AECOM, Jacobs do these type of work here in the Bay Area. Last 4 firms I mentioned are EAC firms where they have In-house MEP engineers. Working at these firms can provide you great insights on the building systems and how to incorporate their elements into your design. This is very important skill/knowhow to have. As you gain more experience in these firms, there will be opportunities with tech. companies or construction companies to lead their tech office or data center projects.
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 7, 22 7:09 pm
I am also afraid of pigeonhole.. in these particular large firm where I can only do renderings.. so idk my plan to get used to the building process from schematic to construction admin then switch to larger firms.
Stasis
Jun 10, 22 12:43 am
I jumped around a lot. in the beginning it was because of the recession, then in later years, to learn all the other phases. In my experience, it was medium to large arch firms that pigeonhole people.
Those EAC firms may be nicer than typical arch firms.. They have lot more money coming in (their arch revenue probably makes up 10% of their total revenue), so they tend to pay more than typical arch firms. (I'd say 20% more). Since they are large and work in broad project types, there will be opportunities to work on
mission_critical
Jun 12, 22 3:09 pm
Currently editing this post
nabrU
Jun 7, 22 7:23 pm
Sorry OP but that's a fucking disgraceful offer that only reflects badly upon the employer.
NB: The same fools will be chucking $200k+ at some dick head running mouth about algorithms.
soartdeco
Jun 9, 22 7:29 pm
Hi! I'm also an architectural designer with 3 years of experience living in SF.
I would say that 75k is on the lower side, but some of my friends make that salary working in residential architecture. They seem to live comfortably enough, either here in the city with roommates, or in East Bay.
I think it depends on the size of the firm that you're joining and the type of work that they do. I've only worked in corporate offices, but 75k was my starting salary out of grad school - since I've raised it into 6 figures by specializing in a super specific project type.
Stasis
Jun 10, 22 12:39 am
Good for you. i am curious to know what that specific project type is... if it isn't tech or biotech, then i think defense comes to mind...
soartdeco
Jun 10, 22 2:25 pm
Mostly lab planning for BSL2 & BSL3 labs. Hopefully I’ll get some BSL4 experience soon too.
Stasis
Jun 10, 22 7:00 pm
Yes, that is great. Experienced Lab Planners are always in demand, in spite of economic cycle. Keep it up and you may run into opportunities to work for large pharma companies where they pay you in whole different scale...
The_Crow
Jun 10, 22 9:05 am
I live and work in NYC, a different but still high-end cost-of-living market.
I would say that $85k would be more commensurate with the salaries I would expect in NYC, but that is of course determined by the size of the firm and the type of work you're doing.
Even seeing +$90k in some cases... The market is hot, get yours while you can.
Jay1122
Jun 13, 22 5:33 pm
3 years exp unlicensed for 85K-90K? No way, that is licensed architect salary. I think around 70K is more likely in NYC. Talking about average of course. There may be some unicorns.
zonker
Jun 12, 22 4:22 pm
currently the market is hot. this November and December? I would read about economic trends toward a possible recession at 75% - But is your are a talented "hotshoe" , then I wouldn't loose any sleep - its the average folks that need to step up their game now - $75- $90k in SF? do it if you can - you don't want to sell yourself short - just make sure you got the "skills that pay the bills" - too many people oversell themselves and end up falling on their swords
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 12, 22 5:10 pm
What kind of talent you are talking about? I came from pretty well known school, and been experience w planning and construction phase. Coordinated with consultants and planners etc.. I am pretty sharp with computers and 3d programs like many young designers out there. And of course I am only 3 years exp post grad. Im not sure what kind of other
special talent they are looking for.
Non Sequitur
Jun 12, 22 5:39 pm
Strange world where 75-80k/yr for unlicensed
Non Sequitur
Jun 12, 22 5:40 pm
Broken comment. Meant to say 75-80 for
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 12, 22 5:49 pm
It call Bay Area world... idk where you live but in 2022 that range is pretty standard
zonker
Jun 12, 22 6:40 pm
Nammoadiaphat
If you are as sharp as you claim, then go for the higher numbers, 80K+
Did you want to switch from architecture to Industrial design? - I did the opposite, studied Industrial design, then architecture
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 12, 22 7:26 pm
I am not sure if I want to tbh... right now I am just unsure what I really want to do in life. Maybe I am not that happy with my current job and always have second thoughts. I am at mid 20s, so I am pretty sure people my age are pretty sharp with computer? I dont consider that an advantage tbh. A lot of time I have no idea what the contractors are talking about, and I had to ask them silly questions ( still do ) ... but thats just learning
process
zonker
Jun 12, 22 8:04 pm
Life is long, don't let anyone kid you - just flow with it - and learn as you go
Stasis
Jun 13, 22 2:22 pm
I think Zonker sounds pretty seasoned and his advises are spot on about the recession. When a recession hits, firms will have to evaluate who's productive for their pay grade. They may scrutinize each individual on projects they work on and how they have been doing it. Reputation matters too. If PMs and PAs keep wanting to work with you because you have been meeting their expectations regularly, then it gives off a good signal to the upper management that you are a valuable asset. I was at 3 years mark when the last recession hit SF Bay Area. Multi-family firms basically died and other firms were living off of scraps of projects and tapping into public and international works. My first did the latter, but I always had to be on my toes. In order to survive, I was very proactive and continuously pushed myself to do more.. I beat deadlines at least a day earlier, so I could give my superiors more time to make changes and pick them on the same day before I leave for home. I finished my work early and went around the office and asked other PMs and PAs if they need any help. Yea, I was taking on more work, but I also made the other leads to depend on me, so they could not get rid of me easily. I too was good at any software that the office used, so I utilized that to fullest. This could be advantage if you can provide more value to the firm and people around you. I did lot of illustrative work and doing lot of menial works like updating ADA details per the updated codes, which some other folks in the office didn't want to do. Doing the works that others don't want to do can teach you perseverance. Throughout our career, we can't just cherry pick the works that we want to do, but have to deal with the works that we must do for the sake of the project. At that experience level, any work can provide you teaching moments, so I took those on in order to survive and thrive. Looking back, I think I grew the most during those tough times.
We are not at recession and it may not happen, so you can relax a little now. It's normal that you are not sure what you want to do now. I was in the same shoes. I wanted to be a designer but then also wanted to learn CDs and CAs, so I jumped to another firm. I learned CDs and CAs but wanted to manage the whole project, so I became a PM. Now, I am managing building projects from beginning to close out, but am still not very happy (Only upside is I make more than typical principals). My wife tells me to go back to design but no one will pay my salary if I go back.. Indeed life is long but also full of great journeys. You can flow with it and carve out your own paths. Perhaps get you license out of the way first..
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 14, 22 2:13 pm
I appreciate your encouraging response. I have a small team of 4-5 people actually. Being the youngest here, there are times when they assign me tasks like fixing printers, fixing computers, and updating our program library. As I lack experience in technical architecture and construction management, I am concentrating on other skillsets for my office. I guess as a smaller firm, I can definitely find an aspect to contribute much easier than bigger firms
zonker
Jun 14, 22 12:24 pm
Stasis nails it - oh, and one more thing. Don't fall for WFH. it's a trap. You want to get as much face time as possible. I don't have to be at the office, but I show up anyway. The firm's president and PMs I know a lot better and they appreciate I come in to work. WFH, is "out of sight, out of mind and soon out the door"
Chad Miller
Jun 14, 22 12:25 pm
/\ This.
You lean so much by being exposed to the conversations of others. Hell, after 18 years experience I still learn things this way in our open office.
Nammoadiaphat
Jun 14, 22 2:05 pm
Fortunately, my current workplace creates the opportunity for its associates to independently visit construction sites frequently, have design meetings with clients in the office, and conduct construction meetings (on-site), so I am unable to find a way to make it work without being present physically myself. Nature architecture is not suitable for wfh, as I understand. I wfh in my previous firm and all I did was just drafting.
rcz1001
Jun 14, 22 7:34 pm
Architecture isn't something you exclusively work from home. As a building designer, that is also true. Some things can be done from home if you have a good place at home to work from. However, there is stuff that if you are working with a team, it's necessary or better to have some in-person interaction. Additionally, there is time you are at project sites as well.
Hi,
Just got a job offer in California (Bay Area) at a rate of 75k a year with 3 years of experience, do you think this is below / average / market rate?
Should I negotiate?
Is this 3 years of experience post-licensure?
If so, it might be ok if that is your base salary and you have additional for housing and healthcare and other benefits in the benefits package portion if you are in the Bay Area. If you are in other areas where the cost of living is lower, $75K total package isn't bad.
If you are three years experience after graduating from college, $75K isn't particularly bad especially if you are not even licensed yet. It can be good. I wouldn't try to push for more if you are not even licensed yet... especially if the $75K is just the base salary and you have additional in the form of benefits that covers health care benefits and housing in addition to standard stuff employers are required to pay on top of wage/salaries. At least, not yet. This pay level is does seem like a fair amount because often I see similar pre-licensure positions with only 3 years requirements being in the $50-60K range. It would actually be a good sign for the profession is that is become the norm for positions that doesn't require a license to be in the position.
after college! There is no housing, but healthcare is included. The job market is currently short of workers and there is a high demand for houses.
If you can find an affordable (reasonable for the area) without huge outrageous commute, I think it can be workable. So its hard to say. That would be great where I am although places are getting more expensive even where I am but I am not sure with SF Bay area because that's something that's going out of control from what have heard but don't know first hand. I am impress with the offer given for this profession for that little number of years as 3. Not to claim its bad, just limited and understandable.
Rcz1001, you don't know what you're talking about and you've clearly never worked in san francisco as an architect if you think 75k is a decent salary here. I have friends who don't have licenses with BArch's that make mid 80's before benefits in SF. To actually answer the question - realize that HUD considers bay area low income for an individual to be low 80's. Please don't take rcz1001's advice. It's not grounded in reality.
P4tricia, you do know the difference between base salary and salary + housing benefits. Another thing, you talk about a person with a BArch degree with no license but fail to disclose how many years of experience. In Bay Area, you don't rent an apartment by yourself. You rent with roommates and that rent is split. It it costs $4.2K a month then you split that across 3 or 4 roommates. When you do that, its livable but you have less space per person but even a studio can house 4 people if they organize the space efficiently. However, guess what, the bay area is quite a big area from different context of what that means. Even when you do some search, you might have to commute but when you're about 1 hour outside the metropolitan area, the price and spatial conditions is different than living in downtown areas of Bay area city. There's apartments in SF that you can rent into for under $2K a month. Ever looked on Apartments.com and others. There are places. Yes, you have to shop around but you may have to commute to work to get but if you can commute or work even allows for some flexible hybrid arrangements between in-person and remote working, it isn't necessarily bad when you consider commuting (and using an economical fuel/efficient vehicle and maybe public transit) and commute when you need to. The fact that Nammo is even getting more than $60K with only 3 years of experience when the national and even average for the west coast or even the average for the whole of California is less than $60K salary in ARCHITECTURE. Now, if there is something I would negotiate for, I would negotiate terms for either partial or full coverage for housing. When I say partial, I'm talking half the cost as a benefit on top of the base salary. Full coverage would be great but say 50% coverage for housing based on SF Bay area average apartment prices a month. This would be what I would suggest as an option. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend an increase in base salary amount as a starting amount with only 3 years but over time, with 5 year and then at the 10 year mark may have increases, based on experience steps, in addition to annual inflation/minimum wage increase adjustments. Who you are talking about with mid-$80K could have been someone with a B.Arch, but not licensed yet has 10 years of experience. Not exactly an apple to apple comparison. Lets not assume all apartments are $4.2K to $5K a month. I wouldn't recommend going into some place with more than $2K a month without a spouse/roommate to split the cost. So, consider things for what they are. I'm just impressed with the base salary amount. Now, I think some firms can potentially make for some accommodation of housing or portion as a benefit even if it doesn't cover all, it can help. It is floating the idea to help in retaining work. I know and understand that apartments costs have dramatically risen but lets be friggin' honest. If all the apartments cost $4K to 5K a month per tenant or for a 1 person studio, they would have to mandate a minimum wage of $45 to $50 an hour. Seriously. Lets also remember that not everything you have to buy locally in the hyperinflated neighborhoods of the Bay area. I know people in the Bay area. It's not always as bad as some make it out to be. Lets be real. If you can't find a place for a lower amount then perhaps its circumstance but you probably could have found a less expensive place after a little bit and relocate yet still work in the Bay area. People do it all the time.
In short, prices runs the gamut. If you think graduating and a few years of experience that you are going to be paid $125K a year so you can have the luxury apartments. No one gives a f--- about your apartment especially if you are an employee. It's the champaigne and $1000 bottle of wine lifestyle dream like the fancy rich f---s with a multi-million dollar yacht. You're not a top rate drug lord for crying out loud. There is a bit of culture pressure but guess what, don't be a dumb ass. You're in the wrong profession for that life style because most of those starchitects came from wealthy well-to do families with a trust fund that enabled them to do things that would take a lot longer and a lot of incredible luck just get to at the pinnacle of your career what most of them started at. We are still somewhat of a social-economic class caste system although not direct because the friction to moving up in the socio-economic class is difficult when you go above a certain level. It's easy to go down not up... like gravity. This is the top down pressure of our culture. You can make do and go further if you sacrifice some creature comfort and luxury for a little more plain life for an apartment.
Alright guys! all I ask is 75k a good base salary and should I take the job... lol
Do you have any offer to compare with? In my opinion, I think it is decent for an architect with 3 years exp. here in the SF Bay Area.. You shouldn't compare Architect's salary to any other industry (especially tech), as it is not realistic at all. Perhaps you should ask that company how often they do performance review. Some arch offices in SF are shady and never offer this unless you ask for it, whereas some office have annual performance review that result in salary increase. Having worked in this area and many offices, I know lot of Bay Area firms. If you can direct message me their name, then I can offer few insights.
Stasis, this is for a position that is pre-licensure (3 years experience after graduation... prior to licensure). I think given that, your point aboves stands even better for someone who isn't even licensed yet. I think given the details, it is actually pretty darn decent for this profession. You still need to look for apartments that are more in the affordable range. I'd try to find a place where you're monthly rent is at $2K or less. This way, you can afford it from that. If you're stuck with apartments that costs more than $2000 a month, maybe a little negotiation for a housing benefit to make up the difference so you have a fair amount to live from. Considering your actual take-home amount may be only $60,000 a year or ~$5000 a month. You will want to consider looking for a place you can get for $1K to $1.5K a month if possible. Some for less than that may be an option. There are options out there but if they can contribute to 50% of your monthly housing expense as a benefit, then you can possibly look for $1.5K to $2.5K range and still have a decent amount from your take-home to cover other living expenses and that the Bay area has certain expenses that are higher than national averages. There's a certain degree of quality of life issues that matters yet you also don't want to come off with sounding too demanding and also what you may offer. How close are you to licensure nammo? Stasis may have some good advice on this.
If nammoadiaphat is getting paid on bi-weekly basis, $75,000 and 70% take home pay, then it is around $2,020. I found few studio APTs in Oakland below $1,400.. You would want to live near BART, AC Transit Line, or Ferry line. You sound like a young person, so i think you would like cities like Berkeley or Oakland, pretty hipster towns. Alameda is great as they have good bus line and ferry connection to SF (takes only 25 mins). I get car sick and BART is exploding with people, I always prefer the ferry ride. Transportation is significant cost, so you need to consider this too.
hey, it's actually in Menlo Park near Palo Alto, doing high end design residential
firm.. Cant rent here tbh, probably I will live in the east bay.
You don't have to live in the same town/city as where you work. You just have to be able to reliably get to work in a reasonable manner preferably with a economical means but that is something to consider. I would recommend being close enough to be able to commute within 1 hour but preferably within 30 minutes if possible. With commuting, you need to plan your day to include time to travel even under poor traffic conditions or at least plan your commute time to make it through key bottleneck areas before all the bozos are in those areas. There are peak times and less peak times for traffic. Peak time for traffic means slow congested traffic. We know that 7 to 9 AM... bad. 4 to 7pm bad traffic time. Your days may be long. If they allow some hybrid in-person/remote flexible schedule... great. You'll need to figure that out as you go. The two main points in time are universal for major cities as that is the time people are on the road, taking kids to school/daycare and arriving at work. This is how things are universally in every big city metropolitan area of the United States. Some can provide you more specific advices about SF Bay area. I agree with Stasis above. You're take-home per month being around $4000 (if its a 70% take-home) or around $2K per paycheck (with two checks a month or every other week). I believe you'll be able to do fine.
Nammoadiaphat, driving from East Bay to South Bay (Palo Alto, San Jose, Menlo Park, etc) is horrible...and Palo Alto and Menlo Park are only for Zuckerberg and his buddies. Stinking 880 has always traffic that would take easily 2 hours each way.. I suggest Watsonville or towards the South of SouthBay.
Sorry I meant Morgan Hill. Zillow shows some 2k/month in Palo Alto and San Jose. There are only few. Good luck
Also check out Apartments.com for the San Jose area which is to the east of Menlo Park. You can even set the filter to establish the max price point.
i found something about it https://daycare-en.com/what-is-the-average-daycare-director-salary
Lol, you can't expect any housing support in SF Bay Area.. I once rented a studio for 4.2k/month in Fidi in SF... How good is your healthcare and is there 401k match? How about flexible time or overtime policy? You have weigh in the entire benefits package. However, I'd say 75k for 3 years seems pretty good even for SF. I was making that amount after 7 years back in 2014..
in the middle of inflation, everything is way expensive nowadays...
If I recall correctly, the rule of thumb in financial planning is that your monthly housing expense ideally should be 25% of your monthly pay. That said, the people I know in NYC and SF are probably spending more like 40-50%. Price some apartments and see how things look. In some high cost cities, there's a tacit expectation that you will live with roommates or commute many miles and the salaries make no effort to keep up with nearby rents.
When they were young at the 3 year mark of their careers, my friends in SF rented bedrooms in large apartments with 4-5 roommates in the other bedrooms. Just about all of them eventually relocated to less expensive places in the US.
I have been living in SF Bay Area for past 20 years and that's about right. We kept moving farther away from the SF for more affordable and livable places. With COVID and my firms going full remote, it doesn't hurt at all. It seems really difficult to live in the city alone.. you would have to get housemates or get married.. When I got married 9 years ago, I was only making 52K (3yrs) and my wife 46K... It didn't seem all that bad at that time.. funny thing is even though we now make 3 times or more, we don't feel much richer.
Hey - jumping on this thread. I have 3 years of experience and looking for a job in Chicago. I know Chicago is way different in terms of cost of living than SF. AIA Comp Report has the range for 3-5 years from 55k to 65k. Though, I'm hearing people are asking for 60k-ish starting. Anyone in Chicago have advice for me?
I live in Chicago and have ~4 years experience, making little under 60k currently (around 59, I'm being paid hourly). Recently a firm reached out to me and I asked for 62k which they agreed for, but I turned it down though because they do different type of work than I'd like to work on. With that being said, I'm updating my porftolio currently and passing first ARE this summer, and I'll be asking for 65-70k, and you shouldn't ask for less than 65k either (recently spoke with my coworker and she has similar exp to mine and makes 50k. I feel like we're all underpaid, at least in small firms). A lot of people would be surprised how low the actual salaries are in this area
Nammoadiaphat,
I realized that one of my messages were truncated and didn't get uploaded.. I can share few insights on the career paths here in SF Bay Area. As you may already know, two most predominant industries here are tech and biotech. There is a joke about someone walking into a bar in NYC soon learns that one works in finance, one works in retail, one works as an architect etc.... When you walk into a bar in SF, you'll find folks working in jobs like NYC, but they all have prefix 'tech' in front of them - tech architect (in house designers), tech project manager, tech lawyers, etc.. Of course, there are small niches in housing, civic, education, commercial but there are consistent clients from these two major industries. This means more stability and job opportunities for architects who work with these clients. When I was younger, I wanted to explore and find building types I wanted to work on, so I tried different firms that do different works. Skyscrapers seemed appealing but it's so darn hard to build one in SF (should read up on shadow ordinance in SF), or in the rest of the world.. Broad experience is good, but having deep experience in few project types matters more down the road. So, learning how to design spaces for tech and biotech can really enhance one's chance to grow their career exponentially. With 10+ years of experience, many architects here work for tech/biotech companies later on with much higher pay. I think there are opportunities out here where you can thrive if you look at the right place.
Thank you, I have 3 years in Residential single famliy house. I heard rumors that it is good to start as a small residential design firm. But it is not great career advancement in a long run? Do you have any recomendation on the type of tech firm in the bay that I can take a look?
Hi small firms because they are small and tend not to have defined design and production team settings, there are opportunities to work on different things, from concept design to construction administration. If this is the case, then you get really good wholesome training. I believed that I started in a small 4 persons office.. However, 2008 recession hit and small offices couldn't find more works to keep me, so there is a risk with small firms too. I think single residential is a small niche in that it would make it difficult for one to move another building types. I think the opposite may be true too. I have no single residential experience, so it will be challenging for me to apply for a job in such places.
Regarding your question, tech companies look for architects to design two major building types - Workspace and Data Centers. To throw few names, Gensler, Corgan, DGA, DES, Salas O'Brien, Burns & McDonnell, AECOM, Jacobs do these type of work here in the Bay Area. Last 4 firms I mentioned are EAC firms where they have In-house MEP engineers. Working at these firms can provide you great insights on the building systems and how to incorporate their elements into your design. This is very important skill/knowhow to have. As you gain more experience in these firms, there will be opportunities with tech. companies or construction companies to lead their tech office or data center projects.
I am also afraid of pigeonhole.. in these particular large firm where I can only do renderings.. so idk my plan to get used to the building process from schematic to construction admin then switch to larger firms.
I jumped around a lot. in the beginning it was because of the recession, then in later years, to learn all the other phases. In my experience, it was medium to large arch firms that pigeonhole people. Those EAC firms may be nicer than typical arch firms.. They have lot more money coming in (their arch revenue probably makes up 10% of their total revenue), so they tend to pay more than typical arch firms. (I'd say 20% more). Since they are large and work in broad project types, there will be opportunities to work on
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Sorry OP but that's a fucking disgraceful offer that only reflects badly upon the employer.
NB: The same fools will be chucking $200k+ at some dick head running mouth about algorithms.
Hi! I'm also an architectural designer with 3 years of experience living in SF.
I would say that 75k is on the lower side, but some of my friends make that salary working in residential architecture. They seem to live comfortably enough, either here in the city with roommates, or in East Bay.
I think it depends on the size of the firm that you're joining and the type of work that they do. I've only worked in corporate offices, but 75k was my starting salary out of grad school - since I've raised it into 6 figures by specializing in a super specific project type.
Good for you. i am curious to know what that specific project type is... if it isn't tech or biotech, then i think defense comes to mind...
Mostly lab planning for BSL2 & BSL3 labs. Hopefully I’ll get some BSL4 experience soon too.
Yes, that is great. Experienced Lab Planners are always in demand, in spite of economic cycle. Keep it up and you may run into opportunities to work for large pharma companies where they pay you in whole different scale...
I live and work in NYC, a different but still high-end cost-of-living market.
I would say that $85k would be more commensurate with the salaries I would expect in NYC, but that is of course determined by the size of the firm and the type of work you're doing.
Even seeing +$90k in some cases... The market is hot, get yours while you can.
3 years exp unlicensed for 85K-90K? No way, that is licensed architect salary. I think around 70K is more likely in NYC. Talking about average of course. There may be some unicorns.
currently the market is hot. this November and December? I would read about economic trends toward a possible recession at 75% - But is your are a talented "hotshoe" , then I wouldn't loose any sleep - its the average folks that need to step up their game now - $75- $90k in SF? do it if you can - you don't want to sell yourself short - just make sure you got the "skills that pay the bills" - too many people oversell themselves and end up falling on their swords
What kind of talent you are talking about? I came from pretty well known school, and been experience w planning and construction phase. Coordinated with consultants and planners etc.. I am pretty sharp with computers and 3d programs like many young designers out there. And of course I am only 3 years exp post grad. Im not sure what kind of other
special talent they are looking for.
Strange world where 75-80k/yr for unlicensed
Broken comment. Meant to say 75-80 for
It call Bay Area world... idk where you live but in 2022 that range is pretty standard
Nammoadiaphat
If you are as sharp as you claim, then go for the higher numbers, 80K+
Did you want to switch from architecture to Industrial design? - I did the opposite, studied Industrial design, then architecture
I am not sure if I want to tbh... right now I am just unsure what I really want to do in life. Maybe I am not that happy with my current job and always have second thoughts. I am at mid 20s, so I am pretty sure people my age are pretty sharp with computer? I dont consider that an advantage tbh. A lot of time I have no idea what the contractors are talking about, and I had to ask them silly questions ( still do ) ... but thats just learning
process
Life is long, don't let anyone kid you - just flow with it - and learn as you go
I think Zonker sounds pretty seasoned and his advises are spot on about the recession. When a recession hits, firms will have to evaluate who's productive for their pay grade. They may scrutinize each individual on projects they work on and how they have been doing it. Reputation matters too. If PMs and PAs keep wanting to work with you because you have been meeting their expectations regularly, then it gives off a good signal to the upper management that you are a valuable asset. I was at 3 years mark when the last recession hit SF Bay Area. Multi-family firms basically died and other firms were living off of scraps of projects and tapping into public and international works. My first did the latter, but I always had to be on my toes. In order to survive, I was very proactive and continuously pushed myself to do more.. I beat deadlines at least a day earlier, so I could give my superiors more time to make changes and pick them on the same day before I leave for home. I finished my work early and went around the office and asked other PMs and PAs if they need any help. Yea, I was taking on more work, but I also made the other leads to depend on me, so they could not get rid of me easily. I too was good at any software that the office used, so I utilized that to fullest. This could be advantage if you can provide more value to the firm and people around you. I did lot of illustrative work and doing lot of menial works like updating ADA details per the updated codes, which some other folks in the office didn't want to do. Doing the works that others don't want to do can teach you perseverance. Throughout our career, we can't just cherry pick the works that we want to do, but have to deal with the works that we must do for the sake of the project. At that experience level, any work can provide you teaching moments, so I took those on in order to survive and thrive. Looking back, I think I grew the most during those tough times.
We are not at recession and it may not happen, so you can relax a little now. It's normal that you are not sure what you want to do now. I was in the same shoes. I wanted to be a designer but then also wanted to learn CDs and CAs, so I jumped to another firm. I learned CDs and CAs but wanted to manage the whole project, so I became a PM. Now, I am managing building projects from beginning to close out, but am still not very happy (Only upside is I make more than typical principals). My wife tells me to go back to design but no one will pay my salary if I go back.. Indeed life is long but also full of great journeys. You can flow with it and carve out your own paths. Perhaps get you license out of the way first..
I appreciate your encouraging response. I have a small team of 4-5 people actually. Being the youngest here, there are times when they assign me tasks like fixing printers, fixing computers, and updating our program library. As I lack experience in technical architecture and construction management, I am concentrating on other skillsets for my office. I guess as a smaller firm, I can definitely find an aspect to contribute much easier than bigger firms
Stasis nails it - oh, and one more thing. Don't fall for WFH. it's a trap. You want to get as much face time as possible. I don't have to be at the office, but I show up anyway. The firm's president and PMs I know a lot better and they appreciate I come in to work. WFH, is "out of sight, out of mind and soon out the door"
/\ This.
You lean so much by being exposed to the conversations of others. Hell, after 18 years experience I still learn things this way in our open office.
Fortunately, my current workplace creates the opportunity for its associates to independently visit construction sites frequently, have design meetings with clients in the office, and conduct construction meetings (on-site), so I am unable to find a way to make it work without being present physically myself. Nature architecture is not suitable for wfh, as I understand. I wfh in my previous firm and all I did was just drafting.
Architecture isn't something you exclusively work from home. As a building designer, that is also true. Some things can be done from home if you have a good place at home to work from. However, there is stuff that if you are working with a team, it's necessary or better to have some in-person interaction. Additionally, there is time you are at project sites as well.