It seems like all of the (paid) architecture jobs I have had have been at miserable high-turnover workplaces with abusive bosses where most employees stay for less than a year (sometimes well under a year) before burning out or being fired. You're treated as disposable because you are. The firms may often also practice with sketchy ethics or have issues with things like harassment.
My experiences so far have been with small-midsize firms doing generic/corporate work and work with a little bit of creative or conceptual framing around it, but none of the starchitects people usually call out as having bad workplaces. The hours aren't necessarily even that bad, but every hour can sometimes feel twice as long as it should because of how unpleasant the workplace culture is.
I keep wanting to quit my current job which is in exactly that kind of a toxic/miserable situation, but I don't know if it's even possible to find something else that's better. I assume I keep getting jobs at firms which have those kinds of environments because they are easier and less competitive to get, but does there exist a tier of firms where those kinds of issues don't happen? If so, how do you get into it?
bowling_ball
Apr 9, 22 10:47 pm
Yes, they absolutely exist. With the exception of one manager, nobody at my firm has left for greener pastures since 2013 (holy smokes!). Your best bet is to reach out privately to current or former employees at firms you're interested in. LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, etc etc.
T C
Apr 18, 22 10:12 pm
where do you work?
Josh Mings
May 28, 22 8:50 pm
Damn, that’s not bad at all.
Kinsbergen
May 29, 22 3:44 pm
Of course you can reach out, but how do you formulate this question? 'Hey, is your office toxic?' 'Do PMs ever abuse you?'
Kinsbergen
May 29, 22 3:46 pm
In all seriousness though, what kind of cues can tell you if an office is indeed toxic? I personally doubt if any employee would badmouth their own firm and its management to a stranger. Is it possible to get any of these cues indirectly in the interview stage?
monosierra
May 30, 22 4:06 pm
High turnover could be a clue, though there's only so much one could infer from LinkedIn.
Even the worst places have their supporters though - those who eventually bought in because they did manage to climb up the ranks, or embraced the culture despite their initial reservations.
reallynotmyname
Apr 10, 22 2:57 pm
Reading company reviews on Glassdoor can be helpful as well. Just know that sometimes firms will have will their people post phony good reviews to offset authentic bad ones.
Glassdoor also can mix up firms with similar/same names. My office gets reviews posted to our Glassdoor profile that are really about some tech company in Europe with a similar name.
Kinsbergen
May 29, 22 3:49 pm
I can confirm the fact that firms have their staff post fake positive reviews to improve their public image on Glassdoor. Two firms I've worked at do it, and one of them was actually an extremely toxic place
.
przemula
May 30, 22 3:33 pm
Some people also are too lazy or afraid to write a review. There's semi-famous mid size architecture firm where I live (Chicago) and two of my friends worked there - absolute shit show, based on what they were saying. Yet they didn't mentioned anything on Glassdoor, even though I was asking them to do it
T C
Apr 18, 22 10:47 pm
I feel the same way as you. I wish someone had told me this before I started working but try to get to know as many of your peers and architects are you can. They can tell you about whether an office is good or bad. For example, Morphosis, Steven Holl, Rafael Vinoly and many other starchitects are known for hiring and firing. People rarely post about it because they need the recommendations for their next job or they need to keep their job. Also these offices after they lay you off sometimes offer a severance package where if you accept you can no longer sue them or really talk about it. SOM and many corporate offices are also hire and fire. I've also heard poor things about Standard Architects and MAD in Los Angeles.
However, I have heard good things about Bestor Architecture. Also I had a friend who works at Cover, they are intense but at least they are focused on their work and will accept you if you can show you are talented. Not based on networking like so many other offices.
All of this information is second hand, all of it from coworkers or classmates. I haven't written about any of the offices I've worked at because of the severance packages I mentioned above.
zonker
Jun 8, 22 2:20 pm
The key is to be recognized as "talented" and be the best - if you're no, then you get "laid off" (Fired)
T C
Aug 12, 22 11:50 pm
In an ideal world what you have written would be true but I have found many instances where it is not.
newbie.Phronesis
Aug 13, 22 12:50 am
Indispensability is always valued...except at shitty and/or failing companies.
T C
Aug 13, 22 8:26 am
What you haven't noted in your post is that there are many shitty/failing offices out there. Again, I want to agree with you but have just gone through enough to know that plenty times politics wins. It's exhausting, I'm exhausted.
T C
Apr 18, 22 11:00 pm
Sorry forgot to mention that one of my classmates from undergrad recommended DIGSAU.
Nam Henderson
May 28, 22 4:17 pm
Perhaps starting here or here? More broadly see also
artaahmeti
Jun 7, 22 3:40 pm
Hi! My name is Arta and I am a student in the Netherlands. As part of my MSc. Thesis, together with my team we are conducting #research on "Why don't employees leave destructive / abusive supervisors?".
Abusive supervision remains a significant problem in society, and we need your help in order to answer important questions about the sustained nature of this phenomenon. Since we got very few responses, we are in desperate need for more participants. That said, I would really appreaciate if you could help me anyhow in collecting more responses.
Criteria to participate: If you have ever been a victim of destructive / abusive supervision according to the definition provided, please take some time to fill in the survey below:
have a few questions about clearing that paper jam but that's a pretty good resource there!
soartdeco
Jun 9, 22 10:17 pm
do you work in an office? You should try working from home. It has made things so much better for me.
zonker
Jun 10, 22 12:54 pm
I prefer the office - when we did WFH in 2020, my PA/PM's become belligerent on Slack - too much confusion, ghosting, missed messages - I'm at another firm where we are in the office and there is respect and no confusion - the problem with WTF/WFH is that the day never ends, you're always on call.
SneakyPete
Jun 10, 22 1:09 pm
You need to end the day. Walk away. Turn off your messaging. Dont check your email. The world won't end because your colleagues had to wait until the morning.
zonker
Jun 10, 22 1:20 pm
at that particular firm, if you did that, your PA/PM, the firms principal and HR would call you up on Zoom the following morning to question as to why you didn't respond to the e-mail at 11:25pm - they didn't mess around, clients where getting impatient, because in 2020, banks where pulling out of projects, many being sold for millions below market. A lot of angry people in 2020.
Not responding had consequences
SneakyPete
Jun 10, 22 1:28 pm
I understand. I hope you took that into consideration when you had the ability to reconsider your place of employment.
zonker
Jun 10, 22 2:03 pm
After that, I would GlassDoor firms I was applying to - Careful to choose firms where there were at least hybrid office/WFH situations - I would ask questions in interviews. If it was remote only, then I moved on to the next.
Outsideofspace
Aug 13, 22 1:45 pm
I've been meaning to follow up with this thread more, but I have to respond to these comments. I wish working from home could be an opportunity for me. My firm has provided very limited opportunities to do so, and my employer got angry when I wanted to work remotely for a few days after there was a COVID case *in the office.* I wish I could afford to quit right now.
3tk
Jun 14, 22 5:44 pm
They exist, often do not need to hire b/c a) they have high retention and b) can hire through references (and are often protective of their culture)
How to find them: word-of-mouth is likely your best bet - identify who's happy and where they work / where people in your experience bracket stay for longer periods of time. In interviews ask questions that give you insight into culture: turnover rates, how much people socialize (inside and outside office), work hours, compensation rates / fairness; interview past employees (the more casually you can do this, the better).
How to set yourself up as an attractive candidate. Be a team player, and get a good reputation as a someone people want to work with (clients/consultants can be great resources if you keep good relationships with them). Get good at tasks that are critical for the success of projects and firms - asking firm owners and other senior staff what they want in employees in non-work settings is a good habit to be in (at events like AIA or other professional group settings where mentoring may happen).
bowling_ball
Jun 16, 22 11:16 pm
This is the single best piece of advice I've ever encountered on this site. It's all true. Listen to this.
arhiarhi design group
Jun 18, 22 2:27 pm
Depends on the head. Listen to the CEO talk to the pizza delivery guy and how he handles it. Then u will see how he is with everyone.
It seems like all of the (paid) architecture jobs I have had have been at miserable high-turnover workplaces with abusive bosses where most employees stay for less than a year (sometimes well under a year) before burning out or being fired. You're treated as disposable because you are. The firms may often also practice with sketchy ethics or have issues with things like harassment.
My experiences so far have been with small-midsize firms doing generic/corporate work and work with a little bit of creative or conceptual framing around it, but none of the starchitects people usually call out as having bad workplaces. The hours aren't necessarily even that bad, but every hour can sometimes feel twice as long as it should because of how unpleasant the workplace culture is.
I keep wanting to quit my current job which is in exactly that kind of a toxic/miserable situation, but I don't know if it's even possible to find something else that's better. I assume I keep getting jobs at firms which have those kinds of environments because they are easier and less competitive to get, but does there exist a tier of firms where those kinds of issues don't happen? If so, how do you get into it?
Yes, they absolutely exist. With the exception of one manager, nobody at my firm has left for greener pastures since 2013 (holy smokes!). Your best bet is to reach out privately to current or former employees at firms you're interested in. LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, etc etc.
where do you work?
Damn, that’s not bad at all.
Of course you can reach out, but how do you formulate this question? 'Hey, is your office toxic?' 'Do PMs ever abuse you?'
In all seriousness though, what kind of cues can tell you if an office is indeed toxic? I personally doubt if any employee would badmouth their own firm and its management to a stranger. Is it possible to get any of these cues indirectly in the interview stage?
High turnover could be a clue, though there's only so much one could infer from LinkedIn.
Even the worst places have their supporters though - those who eventually bought in because they did manage to climb up the ranks, or embraced the culture despite their initial reservations.
Reading company reviews on Glassdoor can be helpful as well. Just know that sometimes firms will have will their people post phony good reviews to offset authentic bad ones.
Glassdoor also can mix up firms with similar/same names. My office gets reviews posted to our Glassdoor profile that are really about some tech company in Europe with a similar name.
I can confirm the fact that firms have their staff post fake positive reviews to improve their public image on Glassdoor. Two firms I've worked at do it, and one of them was actually an extremely toxic place
.
Some people also are too lazy or afraid to write a review. There's semi-famous mid size architecture firm where I live (Chicago) and two of my friends worked there - absolute shit show, based on what they were saying. Yet they didn't mentioned anything on Glassdoor, even though I was asking them to do it
I feel the same way as you. I wish someone had told me this before I started working but try to get to know as many of your peers and architects are you can. They can tell you about whether an office is good or bad. For example, Morphosis, Steven Holl, Rafael Vinoly and many other starchitects are known for hiring and firing. People rarely post about it because they need the recommendations for their next job or they need to keep their job. Also these offices after they lay you off sometimes offer a severance package where if you accept you can no longer sue them or really talk about it. SOM and many corporate offices are also hire and fire. I've also heard poor things about Standard Architects and MAD in Los Angeles.
However, I have heard good things about Bestor Architecture. Also I had a friend who works at Cover, they are intense but at least they are focused on their work and will accept you if you can show you are talented. Not based on networking like so many other offices.
All of this information is second hand, all of it from coworkers or classmates. I haven't written about any of the offices I've worked at because of the severance packages I mentioned above.
The key is to be recognized as "talented" and be the best - if you're no, then you get "laid off" (Fired)
In an ideal world what you have written would be true but I have found many instances where it is not.
Indispensability is always valued...except at shitty and/or failing companies.
What you haven't noted in your post is that there are many shitty/failing offices out there. Again, I want to agree with you but have just gone through enough to know that plenty times politics wins. It's exhausting, I'm exhausted.
Sorry forgot to mention that one of my classmates from undergrad recommended DIGSAU.
Perhaps starting here or here? More broadly see also
Hi! My name is Arta and I am a student in the Netherlands.
As part of my MSc. Thesis, together with my team we are conducting #research on "Why don't employees leave destructive / abusive supervisors?".
Abusive supervision remains a significant problem in society, and we need your help in order to answer important questions about the sustained nature of this phenomenon. Since we got very few responses, we are in desperate need for more participants. That said, I would really appreaciate if you could help me anyhow in collecting more responses.
Criteria to participate: If you have ever been a victim of destructive / abusive supervision according to the definition provided, please take some time to fill in the survey below:
https://lnkd.in/eBcp4Szw
Thank you in advance!
take a look at this pamphlet that helps understand what is and isn’t fair in the workplace! http://welcometothegrind.space/
have a few questions about clearing that paper jam but that's a pretty good resource there!
do you work in an office? You should try working from home. It has made things so much better for me.
I prefer the office - when we did WFH in 2020, my PA/PM's become belligerent on Slack - too much confusion, ghosting, missed messages - I'm at another firm where we are in the office and there is respect and no confusion - the problem with WTF/WFH is that the day never ends, you're always on call.
You need to end the day. Walk away. Turn off your messaging. Dont check your email. The world won't end because your colleagues had to wait until the morning.
at that particular firm, if you did that, your PA/PM, the firms principal and HR would call you up on Zoom the following morning to question as to why you didn't respond to the e-mail at 11:25pm - they didn't mess around, clients where getting impatient, because in 2020, banks where pulling out of projects, many being sold for millions below market. A lot of angry people in 2020.
Not responding had consequences
I understand. I hope you took that into consideration when you had the ability to reconsider your place of employment.
After that, I would GlassDoor firms I was applying to - Careful to choose firms where there were at least hybrid office/WFH situations - I would ask questions in interviews. If it was remote only, then I moved on to the next.
I've been meaning to follow up with this thread more, but I have to respond to these comments. I wish working from home could be an opportunity for me. My firm has provided very limited opportunities to do so, and my employer got angry when I wanted to work remotely for a few days after there was a COVID case *in the office.* I wish I could afford to quit right now.
They exist, often do not need to hire b/c a) they have high retention and b) can hire through references (and are often protective of their culture)
How to find them: word-of-mouth is likely your best bet - identify who's happy and where they work / where people in your experience bracket stay for longer periods of time. In interviews ask questions that give you insight into culture: turnover rates, how much people socialize (inside and outside office), work hours, compensation rates / fairness; interview past employees (the more casually you can do this, the better).
How to set yourself up as an attractive candidate. Be a team player, and get a good reputation as a someone people want to work with (clients/consultants can be great resources if you keep good relationships with them). Get good at tasks that are critical for the success of projects and firms - asking firm owners and other senior staff what they want in employees in non-work settings is a good habit to be in (at events like AIA or other professional group settings where mentoring may happen).
This is the single best piece of advice I've ever encountered on this site. It's all true. Listen to this.
Depends on the head. Listen to the CEO talk to the pizza delivery guy and how he handles it. Then u will see how he is with everyone.