I was approached by a friend with a potential project on their condo. Basically they want to convert the roof of their garage (shared by two units) to a roof deck / patio. It sounds like the entire community would be involved in approving the design and eventually all of the garages would get roof decks. It’s a small complex, I think like 8 units, so four decks total. They would hire their own structural engineer (he/she would stamp), but I would draft plans for permit. They want to take it to permits to start. Not sure if they’re wanting to hire me (or any architect) for CA.
I’m interested, but I’ve been advised that condos are too much liability and I should stay away. A sole proprietor friend of mine who does residential told me I might not even be able to get e&o coverage for work on condos....My question is whether this rule really applies to a small project like this or if it’s mainly for new construction of condos? Would there be a 10 year warranty on the roof decks at the end of which I will very likely be sued? If each deck is done at a separate construction project (which seems to be their plan), does this change anything?
Thanks!
Everyday Architect
Jul 7, 21 1:50 pm
Sounds like you should talk to your insurance agent and a lawyer for specific recommendations, advice, and guidance.
proto
Jul 7, 21 1:58 pm
personally, i wouldn't take the project unless I was prime or i was limiting to SD -- let the stamper take the set to permit.
making it stand up is likely the most straight forward part...
re: if they want to pursue these one at a time: unless each arrangement of units is EXACTLY the same, this should be four individual projects [that reasonably have similarities, but are never quite the same]
joseffischer
Jul 7, 21 3:55 pm
ditto this comment, run from "we just need you to create permit drawings" clients if you're concerned on liability... or take it head on, be prime, hire your own team (including structural) and charge accordingly
SneakyPete
Jul 7, 21 3:01 pm
*glances through the national news headlines*
Oh, yeah, sure. Condos are great projects.
joseffischer
Jul 7, 21 3:54 pm
came to post that, thanks
Chad Miller
Jul 7, 21 3:55 pm
Depends on the state you live in. Here in Colorado condos have a HUGE liability risk to do laws that extend out liability for all involved in the project.
The firm I'm at will not do a condo project. Anywhere. Period.
mightyaa
Jul 7, 21 4:54 pm
The risk issue with multifamily is the quantity. So if you have a error or mistake, it tends to be replicated hundreds of time. A $100 dollar fix per instance is now a $10k. And if you are spending $10k, might as well get someone to do an overall assessment; and we'll find a lot more defects.
Quantity also plays into $$$. With single family... you just fix it because you aren't going to hire someone like me (forensic architect) to poke around and make a list of issues and defects. We're not cheap. Also, our clients are primarily attorneys... it is rare a single family homeowner starts with an attorney; HOA's do though as they try to get the builder to repair. (Sidenote: Very rich people start with attorneys, so high end residential imho is more risky than multifamily).
Should mention... it is also uncommon the design professionals get dragged in. Usually how that happens is the builder uses the 'we built what was drawn' and they are right, so the design team is pursued for that. The other way the design team is hauled in are when the CA overlooked some pretty egregious construction errors. And lastly; major change orders and redesigns blowing budgets/schedules.
Every firm should 'pencil down' after the bid set; continued design is probably the #1 way to expose yourself to massive risk. You know the price is fixed with the bid set and any changes after that WILL add cost. If it is you continuing to design versus DOCUMENTED owner changes, you might end up paying if those changes could not be 'reasonably inferred' from the contract set used by the builder. Your only CYA is documenting those changes were something the owner agreed to and knew would cause a change order and approved. Get it in writing and guys like me will defend the hell out of you. Without; "he said / she said" which will go poorly because the contract, your specs, industry standards, all require client's written approvals for changes.
I was approached by a friend with a potential project on their condo. Basically they want to convert the roof of their garage (shared by two units) to a roof deck / patio. It sounds like the entire community would be involved in approving the design and eventually all of the garages would get roof decks. It’s a small complex, I think like 8 units, so four decks total. They would hire their own structural engineer (he/she would stamp), but I would draft plans for permit. They want to take it to permits to start. Not sure if they’re wanting to hire me (or any architect) for CA.
I’m interested, but I’ve been advised that condos are too much liability and I should stay away. A sole proprietor friend of mine who does residential told me I might not even be able to get e&o coverage for work on condos....My question is whether this rule really applies to a small project like this or if it’s mainly for new construction of condos? Would there be a 10 year warranty on the roof decks at the end of which I will very likely be sued? If each deck is done at a separate construction project (which seems to be their plan), does this change anything?
Thanks!
Sounds like you should talk to your insurance agent and a lawyer for specific recommendations, advice, and guidance.
personally, i wouldn't take the project unless I was prime or i was limiting to SD -- let the stamper take the set to permit.
making it stand up is likely the most straight forward part...
re: if they want to pursue these one at a time: unless each arrangement of units is EXACTLY the same, this should be four individual projects [that reasonably have similarities, but are never quite the same]
ditto this comment, run from "we just need you to create permit drawings" clients if you're concerned on liability... or take it head on, be prime, hire your own team (including structural) and charge accordingly
*glances through the national news headlines*
Oh, yeah, sure. Condos are great projects.
came to post that, thanks
Depends on the state you live in. Here in Colorado condos have a HUGE liability risk to do laws that extend out liability for all involved in the project.
The firm I'm at will not do a condo project. Anywhere. Period.
The risk issue with multifamily is the quantity. So if you have a error or mistake, it tends to be replicated hundreds of time. A $100 dollar fix per instance is now a $10k. And if you are spending $10k, might as well get someone to do an overall assessment; and we'll find a lot more defects.
Quantity also plays into $$$. With single family... you just fix it because you aren't going to hire someone like me (forensic architect) to poke around and make a list of issues and defects. We're not cheap. Also, our clients are primarily attorneys... it is rare a single family homeowner starts with an attorney; HOA's do though as they try to get the builder to repair. (Sidenote: Very rich people start with attorneys, so high end residential imho is more risky than multifamily).
Should mention... it is also uncommon the design professionals get dragged in. Usually how that happens is the builder uses the 'we built what was drawn' and they are right, so the design team is pursued for that. The other way the design team is hauled in are when the CA overlooked some pretty egregious construction errors. And lastly; major change orders and redesigns blowing budgets/schedules.
Every firm should 'pencil down' after the bid set; continued design is probably the #1 way to expose yourself to massive risk. You know the price is fixed with the bid set and any changes after that WILL add cost. If it is you continuing to design versus DOCUMENTED owner changes, you might end up paying if those changes could not be 'reasonably inferred' from the contract set used by the builder. Your only CYA is documenting those changes were something the owner agreed to and knew would cause a change order and approved. Get it in writing and guys like me will defend the hell out of you. Without; "he said / she said" which will go poorly because the contract, your specs, industry standards, all require client's written approvals for changes.