I have found myself in a bit of a conundrum lately. I am an emerging professional in the field of architecture, but for the past couple of years, I’ve really been questioning this career path I have chosen for myself. I love architecture, I love buildings, I love cities. I have wanted to be an architect since I was 10. However, I really, really hate the work I do every day as a professional architect. I’m not licensed yet, and I’m thinking about giving up on my dream to get licensed and switch into a different career.
I’m having a hard time figuring out if all architecture jobs are this grueling, or if it’s my specific role. I hate how much engineering is involved, and I will spend all day looking at trash chutes or detailing window sills, and I just don’t care about any of that. I’m just wondering, are there any creative-type architects out there who actually enjoy their jobs and think it’s worth it? I know that entry level positions are no dream job, but even when I look at the work anyone senior that me does it looks even worse. I’m really considering making a career move into UX/UI design, but I don’t want to leave architecture of there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Does anyone have any positive experiences as an architect? Or anyone who has a positive experience of leaving architecture for another profession? Anyone get licensed before leaving the profession and sees any pros/cons with that?
Thanks!
randomised
Apr 28, 21 2:51 pm
Don't care for trash chutes either but love me a good window sill though...
Maybe go into concept development or something if you just want to churn out ideas and have others worry about how it's done.
Or open your own shop and hire the ones that do those jobs for you.
architecture?
Apr 29, 21 8:28 pm
Can you explain a bit more what you mean by concept development? What does that entail and how would somebody just starting out find that type of opportunity?
I'm a student currently and I love the concept/design development aspect of my studio courses and internship experience but, as others are saying, some of the more technical stuff feels like it kind of takes over
I think it depends on the environment you work in as well. For me I am used to the rigorous and time consuming work that NEEDS to be done. What I am NEVER going to get used to is the shithead developer mentality a lot of these big corporate firms have. I've had experience in both tiny and large scale firms doing all sorts of projects form a designer position.
One thing I learned is that I can no longer deal with outdated policies, top down bashing over the head with unrealistic deadlines and just sheer ego that comes with putting up tall glass and metal collage boxes like Hudson yards.
fonzobarber
Jun 26, 23 10:46 am
i’m younger (20) so i would like to know how are you guys able to pay for such expensive art schools and for a risky degree
tduds
Apr 28, 21 3:10 pm
Here's how I see it: Every job has its share of bullshit.
I don't know what the popular mantra is these days but when I was coming up in the world we were saturated with the refrain of: "Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life." Now I'm in my mid-30s and I realize that's a damn lie. Every job has a lot of tasks that are absolutely essential to the success of the job that are also absolutely mind-numbing and/or completely frustrating. The way I see it, your best shot is to figure out what drives you enought that you can tolerate the bullshit.
For me, that's architecture. A good 75% of day to day architecture is slogging through difficult, frustrating, and unrewarding work to get the job done. But the other 25% is so personally fulfilling that I can push through knowing the end result is worth it.
Is architecture rewarding enough to you that you can justify all the bullshit? Only you can answer that. But what I can tell you is that if you move into a different career with the hope that it will feature less bullshit, you'll only be disappointed. You'll just find different bullshit there, so be prepared to deal with it and ask yourself "Do I enjoy this enough to do the bullshit?"
Good luck!
square.
Apr 29, 21 9:23 am
"do what you love" = bullshit needs to be said on every forum related to working in architecture.
Wood Guy
Apr 29, 21 9:44 am
Agree 100%. I'd put the "fun" parts at closer to 20%. If I can have fun at work for an hour or two each day, I can get through the drudgery. Long ago I was into reading self-help books that were all about "do what you love" and came across one that shocked me--the point was, "do what you can make the most money at in the least amount of time and don't expect your source of income to also be your source of fulfillment." It's a Boomer way of thinking, but despite that I think it's correct. That said, if you absolutely hate 95% of your job, then maybe you should look elsewhere.
midlander
Apr 29, 21 9:54 am
"do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" could be read literally to mean if you simply follow your passion you'll be unemployed. i know for someone like me whose passion is sitting outside drinking tea reading crap online that's probably true...
bowling_ball
Apr 29, 21 11:05 am
I grew up in a house where work was seen as work. There was none of this "dream job" talk because such a thing was so outside of the realm of possibility for my parents, they just figured work was work and not a path to happiness or anything but a paycheque. And I'm so glad about that - I see the huge disappointment in people when they realise they've been lied to. Or even worse, when somebody refuses to accept anything less than their perfect dream job, and so are constantly disappointed and questioning everything. The concept of enjoying one's work is younger than many of the posters here. For thousands of years, work was an exchange of labour for money, and that hasn't changed.
square.
Apr 29, 21 11:11 am
For thousands of years, work was an exchange of labour for money
not exactly; the wage laborer is a pretty modern thing, at least as a widespread condition. for example, medieval serfs rarely made money (and worked much less than we do now), and a lot of labor was compelled through various forms of slavery.
your point is still a good one, though i would hope as we progress as a society, and generate more wealth than ever, we can move beyond work as drudgery (for everyone), or at least alleviate it a bit.
tduds
Apr 29, 21 11:20 am
An hour or two *each* day?! We should all
be so lucky.
tduds
Apr 29, 21 11:20 am
Wood Guy your comment reminded me of a snarky tweet I made recently:
newguy
Apr 29, 21 1:39 pm
"For me, that's architecture. A good 75% of day to day architecture is slogging through difficult, frustrating, and unrewarding work to get the job done. But the other 25% is so personally fulfilling that I can push through knowing the end result is worth it"
I appreciate the earnestness of this viewpoint, and overall I'd say it's decent advice. But it's also a very drab and depressing rationalization of how to endure the drudgery of work. Let's be generous and assume 20%-25% fulfillment is correct. That's a staggeringly low percentage of ones entire working career. So we go into the office (pandemics not included) 1 day a week for our own benefit, and the other 4 days are only to benefit the bosses? And for how many years? Yeesh.
newguy
Apr 29, 21 2:09 pm
"I grew up in a house where work was seen as work. There was none of this "dream job" talk because such a thing was so outside of the realm of possibility for my parents, they just figured work was work and not a path to happiness or anything but a paycheque"
As did I, and it's why I think for some of us it's easier to soberly view work that is done in exchange for currency as a form of drudgery (not trying to be dramatic, just honest) that is necessarily done as means of keeping ones head above water. There are no illusions of finding spiritual fulfillment or meaning in work for people who grow up working class, it's just something you do to keep yourself fed, clothed, and have a warm bed to sleep in.
Sure, you can try to find ways to whistle while you work, but you'll still need to find avenues outside of your desk to motivate you to eventually buy your way out of wage slavery. Some days I like my job, some days I merely tolerate it, and other days I despise it to the point of not wanting to draw lines or answer any emails or sit in any more endless coordination meetings.
But if I had the financial security and means to not have to work in exchange for money, I probably wouldn't, and I think many people feel this way. Working class people own this feeling of contempt for drudgery (and their management/bosses), but its mostly the petite bourgeois middle class people who endlessly search for meaning from their labor by feverishly trying to climb slippery career ladders where they ultimately confuse rank and position with their sense of "purpose"
bowling_ball
Apr 29, 21 2:21 pm
Totally agree, newguy. I bought into the company to be my own boss, which comes with its own, different set of stresses. I could easily (mentally, not financially) retire if I had the means.
square.
Apr 29, 21 2:41 pm
really interesting perspective, though a little different for me. i grew up in a somewhat working class home, and have family members that were teachers (i realize this is a job that straddles working class/professional class), but they found a ton more fulfillment from their work than i do in architecture. so while i think there are jobs out there that are incredibly meaningful and fulfilling, the vast majority are like you describe.
JLC-1
Apr 28, 21 3:33 pm
if you don't care about how a building is built, what do you care about?
Quentin
Apr 28, 21 3:40 pm
It's not all glitz and glory; all parts of a building are important. Have you talked to your peers; are they having similar experiences or do you think it's your specific role? If it's specific to your firm, it never hurts to explore options at other firms. Although you'll never get away from working on details that you rather not do or that are just a draggggg. I hate door jamb/sill/head details and door schedules but it's part of the job.
flatroof
Apr 28, 21 4:22 pm
If you don't like what your bosses are doing, probably best to move on. It's true that the amount of grueling effort put into designing a building does not translate into good pay or decent hours even after years and years of experience and a license. I know a Thesis Prize winner from my school who left architecture for Data Science only three years in, another UI/UX design just after a year and change. This profession chews up and spits out even the most talented, let alone the mediocre like myself.
37years and beyond
Apr 28, 21 4:49 pm
This profession is hard on emerging professionals, and experienced ones alike. If you don't love it now it will be hard to love it later. That said you just may be in the wrong firm/situation.
Before leaving the field, I suggest you change firms and work somewhere that has a completely different portfolio, scale, delivery of services than the one you currently serve. After a couple of projects you will know the right path for you. Remember large commercial work often takes 4 -5 years to see designed and built, homes and smaller jobs a year or two.
heffany227
Apr 28, 21 5:16 pm
I currently work in commercial (multi family) which is horribly developer driven and very cheap and uninventive. I did get a few months working on a single family residential project which I enjoyed much more. I was also working with a different boss, but the whole thing just seemed a lot more relaxed and more collaborative with the client than what I was used to in commercial. I’ve also done some work with sustainability residential construction research which I loved (non design role, all research, marketing, and some web design). I’ve just found there’s not a huge market for that kind of work in my area. The market is very tough right now to find many entry level positions to try something different. And I’ve also heard horror stories of people working is residential and how the clients can just be brutal all the time, so it’s hard to judge if that will even be worth it.
RJ87
Apr 29, 21 9:47 am
Commercial work is financially driven. The game there is how to do subtle things that make the building look nicer without blowing the budget. There are some days where I look at the end product & it just is what it is. But then certain projects come around where you have the opportunity to do something nice. Certain projects keep the lights on, other projects are what we put on the website. All depends on the budget, that's how the world works.
whistler
Apr 28, 21 6:02 pm
Not everyone wants to deal with the profession of architecture but the design education can be excellent. I always loved the story of the head Nike shoe designer Tinker Hatfield, finally got to see a documentary about him last summer, great story and probably never regrets his education in architecture. Helps if you basically designed every iconic shoe they ever produced though.... I am sure Michael Jordan agrees!
randydeutsch
Apr 29, 21 9:08 am
I have been an architect for 35 years and used my career as an experiment to find ways to make the experience of sticking with the profession less fraught, and more enjoyable and rewarding. Everybody is different but while challenging at times I have enjoyed every day of being an architect and have dedicated my career to help others find ways to stay - and find their place - in the field. I do this mostly by speaking and teaching, but also writing. This Saturday my 6th book will be published, this one is on this very topic - and for this one enlisted 50 architects from around the globe to share their experiences, insights, advice and wisdom about what it takes to stick with a career n architecture. I mention this because I want you to find a way to stay and find meaning and purpose in the field (not to sell books. After May 1, 2021 you can find a lengthy free pdf excerpt from the book by searching: "Taylor and Francis (publisher) Adapt As An Architect Randy Deutsch"). Wishing you well.
Great Contribution to the Profession - worth having
square.
Apr 29, 21 9:21 am
this is the dilemma that i think all architect face in one way or another. i think alot of it stems from what the education promises, and what the profession delivers; increasingly, these two are moving further and further apart, with plenty of "blame" to go around. i absolutely loved the education, which opened my eyes to so many things, but especially to think critically in an very different way. like you though, i've had my struggles with the profession (5+ years in), and to echo your comments get more and more frustrated as we cram more and more technology/shit into buildings. there are many days where i find myself dreaming about leaving.
but to echo what many have said here, it's about landing somewhere that accommodates enough if the things you do enjoy to balance out the parts of the profession that absolutely suck, and in architecture this takes alot of time; i'm only just getting here. i would absolutely try to find another firm before you give up on the "investment."
either that, or you take the strategy that many artists do- find a job that is less demanding (retail, etc.) which allows you to pursue purely creative pursuits during your own time.
RJ87
Apr 29, 21 9:50 am
Academia & the vast majority of the profession are two very different things. Most kids in school think the profession is all museums, airports & high rises. No one talks about the projects the other 98% of firms work on.
square.
Apr 29, 21 10:36 am
i think they used to be much closer, but academia has been too slow to adapt, and the profession accepts any and all technological change/progress without question.
tduds
Apr 29, 21 11:23 am
Architecture school prepares you for work in an architecture firm in the way that a degree in literature would prepare you for work at a bookbinding shop.
bowling_ball
Apr 29, 21 12:08 pm
Love it
tduds
Apr 29, 21 1:04 pm
That said I loved academia. Arch school taught me to think like a designer. But I learned more about how to be a professional from working in kitchens & construction sites than I ever did in a design studio. Both are important, imo.
JLC-1
Apr 29, 21 2:00 pm
Architecture school prepares you for work in an architecture firm in the way that a degree in literature would prepare you for work at a bookbinding shop.
It was never my experience, but I didn't go to school in the US. Beyond the practical internships working in real life while in school, I had a couple of studios where you had to get to detail 1'-0" = 6" or so. Some people did it inversely, designed the whole project around the detail.
w. architect
Apr 29, 21 11:32 am
Free advice, quit! Do not do something you hate, no matter who, what or how much it pays.
bowling_ball
Apr 29, 21 12:09 pm
Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for. If I quit, are you going to step up to pay my bills? No? Then let's get back to reality. Although your intentions are good, you're not really helping.
Jay1122
Apr 29, 21 1:12 pm
If you do not like the technical part of architecture at all, that could be a problem since it is a big part of architecture. Personally, I do not like the repetitive design limiting public school boxes I do. But I also do not desire starchitect. I am at the early stage of career, I believe in the future. I like detailing window sills if the assembly is unique and fun. Have you had the opportunity to experience project management meetings, schedules, fees? That is another part of architecture. Your preference is definitely different. If you only want design, you could try to shift to a large firm doing design only position. It is very competitive that requires really amazing portfolio showing graphic prowess. Try and see if you can land one. If it did not work out, maybe then you can see what you can transition to. One guy on forum told me he transitioned to IT coding and making 100K salary. He regret not doing sooner. So, it is not end of the world.
heffany227
Apr 29, 21 1:22 pm
Yes, I think the biggest shock to me when entering the profession was the technical work. I don’t think I fully understood that my technical and engineering courses in college were what I was going to be doing every day all day so I never paid much attention. I literally always thought someone else just did it. I was definitely naive, and I wish I had read up on the non-starchitect profession more.
But yes the design architecture jobs are so competitive, assuming many people who went through architecture school were like me and didn’t really understand the full extent of the industry. I never even knew what a CD set was until 2 years ago when I started. I have always loved the graphics of architecture (board layouts, illustrative renderings, site analysis diagrams) and could literally do that all day. Moving into a more graphics/tech field sounds so appealing, but I do find it such a hard decision to make with so much time, money, and energy already invested into this. It’s hard to decide if giving it another year and getting my license is worth it, or just jumping ship before I lose my mind!
heffany227
Apr 29, 21 1:22 pm
Yes, I think the biggest shock to me when entering the profession was the technical work. I don’t think I fully understood that my technical and engineering courses in college were what I was going to be doing every day all day so I never paid much attention. I literally always thought someone else just did it. I was definitely naive, and I wish I had read up on the non-starchitect profession more.
But yes the design architecture jobs are so competitive, assuming many people who went through architecture school were like me and didn’t really understand the full extent of the industry. I never even knew what a CD set was until 2 years ago when I started. I have always loved the graphics of architecture (board layouts, illustrative renderings, site analysis diagrams) and could literally do that all day. Moving into a more graphics/tech field sounds so appealing, but I do find it such a hard decision to make with so much time, money, and energy already invested into this. It’s hard to decide if giving it another year and getting my license is worth it, or just jumping ship before I lose my mind!
Jay1122
Apr 29, 21 1:27 pm
Don't have the perfect answer for you. But it definitely sounds like you only like the design and graphic aspects. Large firm design position is definitely the way to go if you can land one. Don't be afraid to jump if it is not for you. But also be strategic about it. Not just quit and thinking you will suddenly have a bright future in UX/UI. I can't tell you much about the transition, I don't even know exactly what UX/UI do other than basic understanding of graphic user interface design for apps.
Chad Miller
Apr 29, 21 1:36 pm
Something for the OP to keep in mind that doing only design still requires a good knowledge of detailing and construction science.
It's also important to know that only doing design can create issues in job stability. When a recession hits the design staff is normally the first to go in most medium to large firms.
caseygrimley
May 1, 21 8:19 pm
"doing *good* design"...I work with some designers that don't know squat about detailing and construction science and a lot of their design gets cut out because it's simply not feasible (usually because of budget.)
( o Y o )
Apr 29, 21 1:37 pm
Jayy2211 giving advice? Priceless!
Chad Miller
Apr 29, 21 1:41 pm
No, you're thinking of Jay1122. . .
caramelhighrise
Apr 29, 21 2:31 pm
Are there any happy architects out there? I ask because I’m also dreading my job more and more every day. It’s not horrible - my firm offers pretty decent benefits and my work-life balance is great compared to many others considering the level of work I get to do, but as the years go on, seeing a project come to fruition is slowly making the hours of work coordinating things I don’t care about less and less worthwhile. I’m also hesitant to keep with my current career trajectory, as I will inevitably be forced into a PM role soon. I get that it’s all part of the job but it’s not the reason I’m passionate about architecture.
caramelhighrise
Apr 29, 21 3:10 pm
I like whining more. But in all seriousness I didn’t intend to come across that way. I’m just realizing more each day that many people I talk to, even within my own firm and network, dread coming to work for a range of reasons. The root of my question was me trying to figure out if maybe I’m just not at a firm that fits me. Every company will have their own downsides but without getting into specifics of why my current company may not be the best fit for me personally, I’m holding out hope that maybe there’s a better role for me elsewhere. I do love WHY I do what I do, just not the day to day.
SneakyPete
Apr 29, 21 3:32 pm
Don't let Balkins dunk on you. He has no grounds to call you out as being a whiner, and just because people suffer in silence doesn't mean they love their fucking jobs. Most people are scared of becoming homeless if they express anything other than adulation and false pleasure at work. It's bullshit and it needs to fucking stop. We love a good movie where someone says IM MAD AS HELL AND IM NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE while telling real life folks that they're just whiners. GTFOH with that two-faced bullshit.
SneakyPete
Apr 29, 21 3:35 pm
To address your actual point: "I’m also hesitant to keep with my current career trajectory, as I will inevitably be forced into a PM role soon."
This is real. This is bad. This is not a good way to run a firm (ARE YOU LISTENING ARCHITECTURE?)
Hire PMs that didn't spend 5-15 years learning to design if you want someone good at Excel, client ass-kissing, billing, and scheduling. They don't need a fucking Arch degree. THEY DO NOT NEED AN ARCHITECTURE DEGREE.
Architecture firms hire HR people and Accountants that don't have Arch degrees, but we insist that PMs need one. So. Fucking. Dumb.
caramelhighrise
Apr 29, 21 3:40 pm
Is anyone here a PM or know any PMs in arch firms that don’t have an arch background? I know plenty of people that seem to have the perfect skillset for it, but every PM I’ve ever known lives and breathes architecture so it’s difficult for me to picture.
tduds
Apr 29, 21 5:01 pm
Overall I'm very happy with my professional life.
SneakyPete
Apr 29, 21 5:40 pm
As am I. That doesn't mean (and I don't think you were suggesting this) there isn't room for improvement in the way the profession handles its humans.
midlander
Apr 29, 21 9:21 pm
i have a good career. always moments of grass is greener envy or the dissatisfaction after a project/job/initiative don't work out - but on the whole i'm satisfied. or to put it this way, it's far less distressing, uncomfortable, and profoundly rewarding than being a parent. the reality is that life itself is an unpleasant process that's nevertheless worthwhile if you follow your values.
la1n3yjxx6
Nov 10, 21 5:16 pm
Is anyone here a PM or know any PMs in arch firms that don’t have an arch background? I know plenty of people that seem to have the perfect skillset for it, but every PM I’ve ever known lives and breathes architecture so it’s difficult for me to picture.
midlander
Dec 6, 21 11:54 pm
i've worked with PM's who have civil engineering backgrounds. It would be hard to do the job without some professional knowledge of building design.
James Bragg
Apr 29, 21 3:33 pm
I hate how much engineering is involved, and I will spend all day looking at trash chutes or detailing window sills, and I just don’t care about any of that.
You don't expect being able to come up with an iconic building a year after you qualify, do you? Trash chutes and detailing is how most people start.
And, jokes aside, unless you are a star architect chances are even at a senior level your job may end up feeling quite mundane. Most jobs are.
It sounds like you were attracted to the field by the glitz and glamour of buildings designed by renowned architects but are disillusioned with the reality of day to day work.
Everyone goes to LA hoping to become the next George Clooney, but not everyone does...
Pablo Lopez Ampudia
Apr 29, 21 3:52 pm
My advice to you is to keep trying new firms until you figure out what you like. The best that comes out from this is the overall experience that you will receive from different ways firms operate and building typologies. Also the network of people that you will meet. At this point of your career you should be a sponge learning and leaning towards the older more experience professionals to guide you which is super hard in this competitive environment.
My biggest rule of thumb is that if I stop learning at a job and it becomes too repetitive I move on. I went from super design oriented firms to the corporate firms to the smaller firms. Every ship has its own capitan, with its own crew. I still have not find my path yet but I am in a way filtering what I like and what I don't like. I know that this will help me in the future when I have my own practice. So for now suck it up kid and keep on learning and enjoy the ride! Just remember the principals of today will be retiring our generation will take over to prepare the next.
Damn I wish someone has told me this 10 years ago!
Cheers.
Chad Miller
Apr 29, 21 3:58 pm
/\ This is really good advice.
spickney2000
Apr 29, 21 3:59 pm
Architecture is a difficult field, you study so long and all the work experience you need before the professional exam...it's hard work.
If the study (and the loans) don't kill you and you manage to get a decent job where you get to help run jobs from start to finish, actually learn about architecture then it's well worth it doing the professional exam, getting registered........because the 15% that is design is really worth it when you see the finished end product, the other 85% gets forgotten (it's tedius when it's happening).
I would suggest that you change firms, try somewhere smaller, a niche market where there is more design involved (there will be engineering as well, and if you learnt anything from where you work now this will help you). This time is all about getting as much experience about 'the working environment' as possible, it should help you make choices in the future.
heffany227
Apr 29, 21 4:15 pm
Does anyone have any experience with commercial work vs single family residential? From an outsiders perspective, single family seems to be more design orientated, obviously still has the technical aspects, but it seems to be a lot less of the focus, and detailing seems to be a bit more focused on specific design elements. Am I right to think this, or totally off base?
RJ87
Apr 29, 21 4:26 pm
There's a wide range of residential work, so it depends. But consider that most people can't afford to build a new home & most homes in the US look pretty mediocre. But higher end residential focuses a lot more on finishes & finish level details. Mostly because of the millwork involved.
tduds
Apr 29, 21 5:46 pm
I started my career in custom residential & moved to commercial developer
work about 6 years ago. There is still a lot of "technical" work in SFR, & like I said above it's still got it's fair share of BS. But you're not too far off in that there are some fundamental differences.. The major difference to me is motivation. Most commercial architecture is primarily motivated by finance, whether that's an improvments budget for an owner client or an ROI for a developer client. With residential (and to a lesser extent small commercial - restaurants and small shops), there's more of an emotional / experiential motivator. It doesn't always lead to *better* design but I find the conversations much more interesting, and the possibilities much wider. Of course exceptions exist on both sides (I've dealt with home renovation clients who are obsessed with the bottom line & little else, and developers who are very interested in driving good design) but as a general rule it's true enough
Personally I'd advise every young architect to (if they have the option) work in a small residential firm and a large commercial firm in the first decade of their career.
midlander
Apr 29, 21 9:27 pm
for the OP, i think the issue to consider is less what sector you're working in and more how much you respect the work. look for firms doing projects you admire and i think you'll find it much more engaging and worth pushing to get involved at higher level design work. if you're only doing drudgery work it's because no one trusts you to be comfortable leading on the design - which is understandable if you don't like the work the firm does.
midlander
Apr 29, 21 9:29 pm
i've worked commercial my entire career and love it btw - but i enjoy the challenges of getting an appealing design to fit within a developers constraints. obviously different architects have different goals.
Chad Miller
Apr 29, 21 4:47 pm
FYI - Front Page
newguy
Apr 29, 21 7:21 pm
SOO much ennui
RJ87
Apr 30, 21 10:19 am
A post ironically written by someone who's not
an architect.
Chad Miller
Apr 30, 21 10:27 am
Meh, semantics. They're doing the work of an architect and we all know what they meant.
RJ87
May 3, 21 2:41 pm
Agreed on the meh front, just thought the headline with a sad picture being on the front page was ironic.
Like I said in another thread, its just an involuntary twitch whenever I see people saying it. Wasn't meant to be malicious.
homeostatic
Apr 30, 21 7:44 am
Hi!
This is the first time I posted on this forum in probably 15 years. I was in your position many years ago in 2002, working 90-100 hour weeks at what was supposed to be my dream job at a very craft-oriented firm overseas in Australia (was my first choice of firms anyway). Because of the extreme workload, and difficulty of acclimating to a new and frankly very insular culture, I was enticed to depart architecture and focus on digital design.
The good news is that you can apply architectural thinking to a number of creative fields, especially the rigorous process and seeking of numerous perspectives to inform design iterations. The bad news is there's not a day that goes by now where I am not thinking of some excuse to get back into the field, even if it's just building my own live-work studio as a side project.
Nothing is as pure and as difficult in the creative design field as architecture. IMHO, if you're not fanatically dedicated and somewhat of a masochist, there's simply no way to truly succeed at it. That being said, I have watched my closest architect friends pursue many different paths over the years, some more intense than others — everything from becoming the most prolific and well known large project architect in the world; to creating a modest regional practice with a slow output of very detail-oriented, craft focused residences.
If you truly love it, think twice about the divorce.
randomised
Apr 30, 21 8:34 am
Your last posts were in October 2014 though...
homeostatic
Apr 30, 21 10:05 am
Ha, yes — you are right!
It seems I made a posting trying to source (gasp) linoleum floor that year. I should have specified, "the last time I commented upon another thread".
My previous (and long since deleted) account was from 1997 - 2006.
Cheers!
cbiii
Apr 30, 21 11:10 am
push through to get your license and then decide what you want to do. at least you could say you were a legit architect and not just someone who fizzled after architecture school. I think having license (current or past) would help establish some credibility/respect with future employers or clients if you venture into another field.
hate to break it you, this is my take almost 20 years in my career:
architecture school is mostly fun and exciting ... you're young, learning & experiencing inspiring new things ... and you probably do not have bills or anybody but yourself to worry about. you could equate it to the dating phase ... lots of laughing.
architecture profession is a job ... it requires offering a valuable service to clients/end-users who are committing a lot of money to a long-term investment, therefore it has to function and perform and stand the test of time... you know, those basic kinds of things that 'shelter' is supposed to do ... and you probably have bills or family to take care of. this is the marriage phase of architecture; there are rewarding moments, but they come with a lot of effort, struggle, compromise, and commitment ... lots of adulting.
Jay1122
Apr 30, 21 11:57 am
Or pursue a career in academic. Continue to enjoy what you enjoyed as a student. Research, writing, design ,theory, etc. It is all good except its a very very competitive field. A lot of design critics are backed with impressive design portfolio or their own practices. Professors with PhDs. I would love to be in a studio and explore architecture without boundary again with the technical skills gained from actual practices. Not just churn out code compliant boxes for clients.
Chad Miller
Apr 30, 21 12:08 pm
You can still explore architectural design and push the boundaries of design while still complying with building code. You just need to find the right firm to work for.
Jay1122
Apr 30, 21 12:32 pm
Chad, You are correct. But do keep in mind, A vast majority of actual projects have very limited design flexibility. A few sectors I can think of, Warehouses, most public civil projects, developer/low income housing, K-12, ordinary residential, most renovation projects. Only big sectors like Museum, higher Ed, rich corporate clients like google apple, have a much larger budget and flexibility. We all know where those project types end up. When someone takes the good project/firm, someone else has to take the bad one. Simply have everyone to go for the good one is not possible. The field is already competitive, only 50% students enter the field with available positions. Also, We have to discuss the level of creativity available in actual practice, it is a relative term. For some, having some offsetting boxes and glass curtainwalls = creative. For me, need something like the rolex learning center to be called creative and boundary pushing. Which is very unlikely to be done in actual practice. That design did not had budget in mind.
citizen
Apr 30, 21 1:14 pm
^ Excellent perspective from cbiii
George Valdes
May 1, 21 7:33 am
"push through to get your license and then decide what you want to do. at least you could say you were a legit architect and not just someone who fizzled after architecture school. I think having license (current or past) would help establish some credibility/respect with future employers or clients if you venture into another field."
George Valdes
May 1, 21 7:40 am
Trying to answer this on my phone... Anyway, this is pretty bad advice. I love hiring architects for non-architecture roles and not once has having a license stood out in any way. There is no credibility or respect that inherently comes from having a license. If you do not see yourself practicing architecture do not get your license. Also this perspective of "not just fizzled after architecture school" says more about the OPs view towards licensure as a status symbol than an actual tool.
tr1
May 1, 21 5:34 pm
"push through to get your license and then decide what you want to do....I think having license (current or past) would help establish some credibility/respect with future employers or clients if you venture into another field."
cbiii
May 3, 21 2:28 pm
I hardly view licensure as a sense of status or entitlement. I merely see it as having completed a first and significant measure of professional knowledge and discipline … and that would help boost (more than it would hurt) one’s resume for an employer or field that may value those particular things. I admired my sister for attempting a marathon and the time and effort to train for it, and would have admired her the same had she not been able to finish. But I admired here that much more when she crossed the finish line.
George Valdes
May 3, 21 3:49 pm
Licensure is a gatekeeping tool to constrain supply of regulated services. Most employers outside of practice do not understand what it means to be licensed.
citizen
May 3, 21 3:51 pm
One of the values (in most states) is being an architect, as opposed to a designer. That professional distinction is legitimate and worth something (to most). I do agree that it doesn't make sense for everyone in the OP's spot to "push through" and get licensed. A lot depends on how far in one is. But to say it has no value is just false. It may not matter to this or that employer; fine. But it's a big world out there.
George Valdes
May 3, 21 3:59 pm
My main point is that you shouldn't strive to get your license because of what other people think. It's a decision you should make if you seek to practice architecture. If you do strive to get your license knowing that you do not want to practice architecture do not expect other industries to intuit some intrinsic value in a certification. GCs have less hurdles and own more risk from their license and no one outside of GCs would understand the value of that. I've talked to a lot of frustrated folks who are licensed and will never exercise it professionally. The highest leverage you have with the license is starting your own practice or joining another firm that will pay you a 25%+ salary bump because of it.
citizen
May 3, 21 4:08 pm
^ Fair enough. I agree that it would be nuts to start and complete the registration process for someone going into banking or insurance or retail, etcetera.
square.
May 3, 21 4:14 pm
licensure is definitely much more of a tool to supply constraint than to confer value.
richardarchbold
Apr 30, 21 10:22 pm
I don’t know where you are working, or the stage of your career, but some observations from a NZ registered architect… I graduated in 1998 and was licensed here in 2002. I wanted to become an architect since the age of 12, and once achieving that goal I was honestly a little lost. After burning out I taught English in Japan and that break from the profession - particularly rediscovering what was left of me and who I was when I wasn’t so focussed on being an architect - was invaluable in giving me perspective and balance. Since that time I worked in London before returning to Aotearoa NZ and have worked on a range of projects, and now mostly focus on running a practice and involvement in major complex projects.
These are my biggest takeaways.
_ architecture school did not prepare us for practice. Our education - necessarily - focussed hugely on design, and basically taught us to be design directors. The reality is that there are few of those in major practices. There are myriad ways to be an architect, all of which are creative, and these only reveal themselves in practice and in time. _ I have always cherished other creative pursuits such as teaching, sketching, model-making, teaching, making music, podcasting (at 76 Small Rooms, like and subscribe!) to counter the inevitable drudgery of much of day-to-day practice. _ if this is your first job, then CHANGE JOBS. Every practice and every architect is different. I have a friend who left the profession after 7 years working at just one practice. It was a poor fit for her outlook and ideas, and I still lament that she could have found a better path by working with different people. She - and no doubt you - has a huge amount to offer the profession and her departure was a real loss. _ as much as this vocation is about the built environment, in my experience architecture is a people profession. I help run NZ’s largest architecture studio, and the skills I learned at architecture school are put into practice every day helping teams achieve things they didn’t know they could do. That’s not what I expected to be doing when I graduated, but it is deeply, deeply satisfying to assist people’s careers and the buildings they design in doing so. _ find a mentor, maybe outside your current practice, who you can discuss your situation with and can give you a different perspective. Your pain sounds like the difference between expectations and your current reality. Which are you prepared to adjust, and which is achievable? There is a place for your approach out there, if you can find it. _ what is your ‘why’? What do you want from your career? Your love of buildings and cities is desperately needed by both. Is your current job the place to exercise this? Maybe you’re an urban designer hiding inside an architecture degree? Maybe you’re not getting the creative fulfillment you seek (many of the above commenters, including myself, feel this way) so is there a clear pathway to getting that where you currently work or do you need to look elsewhere? _ you also talk about the work being grueling. What is the culture like where you work, are teams celebrated for their efficiency and getting to the deadline without endless all-nighters, or do the leaders emphasise going above and beyond as the way to succeed. If the latter, you are in an unhealthy workplace and should look for saner and safer cultures. _ Is someone responsible for your career development, do they have your back and are they advocating for your success? These are all things you are entitled to early in your career, and I know that nothing I’ve achieved has been done solely off my own back; it’s benefited from the support and advocacy of others the entire way.
Good luck, I really feel for you and have felt the same way many times in my own career. I have a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson pinned on my wall, and look at it every day: “There is something which you can do better than another. Listen to the inward voice and bravely obey that. Do the things at which you are great, not what you were never made for”. If the traditionally-defined ‘creative’ aspects of architecture - only the tiniest slice of the profession in my view - are what you are best at and want to do, then find the people in practice who will recognise that and help you develop excellence. HMU on twitter @rarchbarch if you want.
midlander
May 1, 21 7:55 am
excellent long answer, the suggestion to get outside of situations where you feel stuck is so important.
alexhales07
May 1, 21 4:19 am
Architecture is a fantastic career – and a terrible one. It can be fiercely competitive; the pay isn’t nearly as good as most people suppose; and in reality it involves a lot more mundane labor than exciting, creative projects. Read More at: https://www.indiacadworks.com/
George Valdes
May 1, 21 8:07 am
I know its early in your career but it's never early enough to have a vision for where you want to be in 5 years, professionally and financially.
Want to start your own practice? Work backwards from that. What do you need to know that you can learn on someone else's dime. Absorb more content. Listen to business podcasts while detailing.
Not interested in the technical work at all? Look at other roles that could benefit from your skills, like Business Development, Marketing, Ops... even when making that switch you want to have a clear vision of what you want to learn over a short period of time that will set you apart. This part is actually easy because there is such little innovation within these teams.
Don't adopt the mentality that you need to do what everyone else is doing, like "paying your dues". That is a trap. You are in control. If you wait around for someone else to define your career you'll find yourself still doing what you're doing today, 10 years from now with no sense of ownership.
If you no longer enjoy the industry itself, get out. You don't owe anyone anything to stay. It's your future.
That said the most important investment you can make in yourself is changing your perspective where everything looks like an obstacle to one where everything looks like an opportunity.
Check the career growth summit they're putting together at TealHQ. It's helpful to hear others stories and meet new people outside the bubble of architecture.
Wilma Buttfit
May 1, 21 9:08 am
If you stick with it long enough, frustration with technical details will be a small part of the job and frustration with plans reviewers with high school educations and poor reading and writing skills that can't read plans and don't know anything about design and construction delay a project for months based solely on their own ineptitude and there's nothing you can do about it but suffer through it and do the best you can to try to save face with your client that you with a masters education, a professional license, and many years of experience is no match for the checklist people with limited brain matter that insist something must be done a certain way with 0 understanding of what they are proposing and 0 authority to design anything. And frustration with contracts - every project where about 3/4 of the way through you have to revisit what the fuck you agreed to do anyways for clients who alternatively praise you and disrespect you sometimes on a cycle of multiple times a day and demand PERFECTION and for you to work 12 hour days for substitute teacher wages to make all their dreams come true and make them a place that they can impress their friends with and tell everyone "they designed it" and all the while feel the need to tell you there are no technical parts to designing a building because they do it in about 5 minutes on TV, so you must be taking advantage of them so they make threats that they are going to call their lawyers cause they don't understand why it can't be easier and you don't even build anything and you don't even have a truck or a hammer so ho hard can it be "building" as an architect all the while telling you those babysitter wages they are paying are such a drag on their finances because they have a LOT of expenses right now and need money to put towards light fixtures and quartz ya know.
But then there are those moments where you get to do design work on buildings for the Olympics or the new high school in your hometown or the new dorm at your mom's alma mater or the nicest clothing store in town or you find yourself a patient in a hospital you helped design... oh wait, that last one wasn't a good experience but you know.
bowling_ball
May 1, 21 9:20 am
This is my life.
Wilma Buttfit
May 1, 21 9:44 am
thanks bb, I feel heard
flatroof
May 1, 21 9:56 am
98% of architects never do your last paragraph and get stuck in the first, better to get paid elsewhere.
Wilma Buttfit
May 1, 21 10:07 am
That's right. If you are designing Carl's Jrs (the burger place), you might think twice
.
b3tadine[sutures]
May 3, 21 3:33 pm
I won't repeat what tintt wrote, because this is exactly how I feel. I do side projects, that is the thing that I find sustaining, and is the thing that is making me be a better architect. I'd do that full-time, but I don't want to chase work. I have a steady, and lovely client, and if I get work from that association, I'm very picky. I'm also working toward other things; devdesbuild, this will be the jump.
Chad Miller
May 3, 21 3:55 pm
Guess I'm in the 2% then. That can't be right.
caseygrimley
May 1, 21 8:30 pm
I wanted to be an architect since high school (graduated in 2000), but I settled with just being a drafter because I enjoyed the work, most of the time, without the added responsibility of dealing with clients and contractors. I've just recently decided to pursue my license and will be licensed by the end of the year. I can tell you that work experience and the "drudgery" will certainly help you out in the long run, and it does get easier, especially when you get to see the building put together.
I work with a couple designers that have little to no clue how a building gets detailed and put together, and it's frustrating to deal with their designs sometimes because they just don't work, and that causes changes and sometimes unhappy clients because they don't get the pretty picture sold to them in prelim design.
Meatball2000
May 3, 21 3:47 pm
it's like laundry to life.
i love living and love life, but only a functioning one. I hate doing laundry or vacuuming floor. you can pay someone to do that for you, or buy a Roomba, but at the end of the day you need to take care of them in a way so that you life can function.
I think part of this is how misleading education all over the world is, more or less.
Another thing someone told me a year ago when I going through similar thing (my trigger point is doing door schedule manually): It's, just, a, job..it's not your 100% life, nor your personality. If you enjoy doing concept and creative work, tons of architects i know do their side hustle, illustrator, furniture, competition, conceptual /theoretical work.
Thayer-D
May 4, 21 9:13 am
"I’m just wondering, are there any creative-type architects out there who actually enjoy their jobs and think it’s worth it? "
Go work for a builder. You get great experience and there are so many opportunities for creative thinking. Builders are dying for someone to make their work attractive as long as you keep that conceptual stuff to your self. No one will ever read it, but you'll get great satisfaction if you make your designs, efficient, economical, and elegant. Don't let the rat race get you down. Think outside the box and be open minded as to where opportunities can be found. Good luck!
h2osuperfly _
May 4, 21 4:57 pm
Switch to UX/UI and you'll soon be making 6 figures, but you'll also be working on trivial apps with a tiny scope of application just so you can sell it to somebody who will use it for exploitative marketing on the internet. Architects are the bitch of the rich. UX/UI perpetuates a culture of false needs. And you'll always be somebody's ____.
Chad Miller
May 4, 21 6:50 pm
OK Ryan.
archiwutm8
Nov 10, 21 6:24 pm
Somebody is an optimist.
cristianfernandez
May 19, 21 4:42 pm
I am an unlicensed architect. I never was interested on getting my license. I was like you a few years ago, I hated being an architect, until I started working for a General contractor and spending time on the field, my life changed, I make double the money an architect makes and my job is soooooo challenging and dynamic. Workings for a GC has changed it all! I have to remark that I work in construction since I was 11 years old, I was a helper, a mason, I poured concrete, did stucco, roofing, Always working on the field making money to pay the Architectural School until I got my degree and started working as a designer, the good thing was that I knew how to build stuff and I used to think in 30 different dimensions when I used to be a designer, I would say i was 1 of a kind, architects normally cant go beyond the screen and autocad, I used to go above and beyond because of my experience building stuff and my experience on the field. Today I am the one that review the drawings we get from the architects, I am the one that hunt for mistakes on the drawings and I enjoy correcting other architects, and I am talking about correcting huge mistakes that if nobody sees we as a GC can loose our a@@.
Chad Miller
May 19, 21 6:33 pm
Not to be a dick but you're not an unlicensed architect. You should know that.
randomised
May 20, 21 7:53 am
you're either unlicensed or an architect...not that it matters.
Non Sequitur
May 20, 21 8:10 am
as a non-stamp-collecting stamp-collector, let me tell you how ya'll should be collecting stamps.
geezertect
May 20, 21 8:43 am
Doesn't thinking in "30 diffferent dimensions" count for anything?
midlander
May 20, 21 9:31 am
if i drive in michigan with my illinois license am i an unlicensed driver? can you be considered a driver even if unlicensed?
Miles Jaffe
May 20, 21 9:51 am
Donald Rumsfeld was the unlicensed architect of the Iraq War.
square.
May 20, 21 2:45 pm
i can neither confirm nor deny that i am an unlicensed architect.
Chad Miller
May 20, 21 2:47 pm
You can tell us square. We won't judge.
RJ87
May 20, 21 4:56 pm
Semantics no longer. I pointed out the the author of this post called themselves an Architect without being one & received the worlds supply of downvotes. I see we have moved into the phase of this thread where we can point that out again, I shall rejoice.
lovato99
Oct 10, 22 9:42 pm
I recently graduated and decided not to go to graduate school for the time being. I grew up in a custom furniture shop, helped my dad with renovations, and always had a liking for architecture ever since I was 10.
Most people in this forum seem to think that we young, aspiring architects don't want to learn or have to deal with the technical stuff, however, I find the detailing and technical side of architecture to be the most exciting aspect of a design. My issue with the profession has been the corporate, cubicle lifestyle that comes with pursuing architecture. I am at the point now where I'd much rather be on-site doing the hard, back-breaking work instead of sitting in front of a computer every day. Then again this may just be the situation I am in now, but it's hard to tell if all firms or practices are this way or not.
Volunteer
Nov 10, 21 6:33 pm
OK, the OP is not an "unlicensed architect". What do you call the unlicensed worker-bees in your own architectural firms that hold degrees in architecture from reputable universities and spend their days designing buildings?
According to the purists on here you could not use the term 'architectural associate' or 'intern architect'. I think 'emerging professional'- as if the employee is some kind of grasshopper larvae in late-stage development is as far as they would go.
'Designer' sounds fine, but 'architectural designer' is a no-no.
"Architecture degree holder from Notre Dame University, 2007' would work, but that's a little wordy.
Wood Guy
Nov 11, 21 8:52 am
I call the unlicensed worker-bee in my firm the principal.
In practice I use the term "designer" or sometimes "residential designer" but I'm often confused with interior designers, graphic designers or others who also use the term "designer."
There's no reason I shouldn't be able to use the term "architectural designer" other than architects can't prove their value over unlicensed designers so they have to commandeer the word architect to make themselves feel important. I get it--if I had spent all of that time and money to earn a title that is not valued in the marketplace, I'd be jealous too.
RJ87
Nov 11, 21 9:55 am
Our office bills them out as Production Staff.
We've got 4 tiers of billables for design professionals:
1.Principal
2. Project Manager
3. Project Architect
4. Production Staff
Some people try to come up with a fancy title for themselves to feel better on their LinkedIn profile, but those are the four tiers it boils down to. Pretty simple.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 21 10:38 am
Volunteer - using the term architectural in the title of non licensed people was made legal a few years ago. Even AIA changed their stance on the words use.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 21 10:42 am
RJ87 - We have all of those but also have architect in-between PA and production staff. We also have Architectural Intern. All titles except for principal have 1, 2, or 3 behind the name. That's only for internal use though to denote experience so it's not part of our 'title'.
RJ87
Nov 11, 21 10:52 am
Yeah we're only about 17 people so there's not much use for the I, II, III experience notations but I know those are pretty popular in larger firms. What's the difference between an architect & a project architect to y'all? For us a PA is the same day to day as Production Staff, it's just that when you get licensed you move from hourly to salary & the pay takes a jump up.
My assumption is that you're going to say PA's run projects & are supervised by a PM.
Edit: I should also note that we have some billing rates for the design department folks too, but that's a different thing.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 21 10:55 am
We're only a ten person firm. The 1,2,3 is just for accounting purposes.
RJ87
Nov 11, 21 11:04 am
I gotcha, I enjoy this size of firm. Anywhere from 10-20 is a sweet spot for me I think.
But you can see why I don't put much stock into the whole "what do we call them" debate. We only have 1 title that actually uses the term Architect within the office. Now outside of the office, I just introduce myself as an architect because it's easier than explaining it otherwise (I bounce back & forth as a PM for smaller projects & a PA for larger ones). It's just cleaner than saying "I'm a _____ at an architectural firm".
I get why people look for a more elegant answer than saying they're production staff at an architectural firm, but it's still the answer.
Everyday Architect
Nov 11, 21 11:40 am
Chad, it depends on your jurisdiction whether using "architectural" or some derivation of "architect" in the title is legal or not. AIA can soften their stance all they want, but they don't make the laws. Your state of Colorado, does indeed have a softer stance than other jurisdictions on this, but it is limited to unlicensed people working under the supervision of an architect as they pursue licensure. Other jurisdictions are not so lenient.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 21 1:21 pm
EA - Correct. I wasn't referring to anyone not working under an architect. Thanks for bringing that up - I totally forgot to mention that part!
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 21 1:28 pm
RJ87 - You're correct about PA and PM roles. PA's run projects and the PM's oversee things. The PA's in our office also have the added responsibilities of scheduling, and QC'ing drawings.
Being in a smaller sized firm we all do a bit of everything though. It's common for PM and PA duties to overlap and change responsibilities.
Everyone in our firm has their strengths and we all complement each others abilities to try to work as a team.
atelier nobody
Nov 11, 21 2:02 pm
How the terms "PA" and "PM" are used varies wildly from firm to firm, at least in the firms I've worked for.
The definition of an Architect has changed. Now it's called, a puppet on a string. Why would anyone want to become an architect when the building technologies are 100 years behind in the past. Anything worth building will not be recognized by the owner since they are not
professionals.
Gloria Steinem: “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.”
archiwutm8
Nov 10, 21 6:35 pm
There two type of folks on this forum the wanker who will tell you to graft it out for the next 20 years and see where it gets you cause that's what they did.
The wanker who will tell you to jump ship cause they wanted to or want to.
As much as anyone of these wankers will tell you anything about the profession at the end of the day do you actually want to continue? If not then maybe it is time to jump ship, if in someway you want to continue maybe try a different studio which specialises in something completely different than where you are. I have friends who hated the traditional architecture firms who work on officer blocks or housing and have found employment in events and staging, firms that specialise in sustainability, cycling infrastructure in various European cities, public furniture and various other niches.
I hope you find what you want for your future.
Emergo
Dec 8, 21 3:46 am
I don't think the issue is so much about architecture, I do love architecture, and I do enjoy designing absolutely anything on a building, on any project, it's a great hobby as per #geezertect's point below. The issue is that architect can't be a job for those who also want to buy their home, raise kids, put money to the side, have a normal life. And actually one can't say I haven't tried, having worked for about twenty different practices, large and small, succesful and more humble, and in four different countries. I hear the board claiming that they aim to protect architecture, it means that they just put building before people, they don't protect architects, they dont even protect the title.
flatroof
Nov 11, 21 10:15 am
With the way inflation is headed and how stagnant Arch salaries remain as the fee is cut more and more, sticking it out seems less and less attractive whether you love architecture or not. Especially if it's a question of affording the explosive rise of the rent of the roof over your head.
square.
Nov 11, 21 3:07 pm
at least the value of all that debt will decrease too!
Emergo
Dec 6, 21 2:57 pm
I’m not sure what you hate more particularly about the job, but a few things that you are surely going to learn hating over the years are the shitty income that you make out of it, the very long hours, the high competition, an ever changing legislation, an ever increasing liability, a permanent insecurity, ungrateful clients, and if everything goes to plan maybe a lovely picture of your best work in a magazine for sole reward. I recommend anyone who is young enough to forget about this profession and choose a better way to live.
geezertect
Dec 7, 21 9:54 pm
It's a great hobby, but a shitty profession for all the reasons cited above.
The definition of an Architect has changed. Now it's called a puppet on a string. Why would anyone want to become an architect when the building technologies are 100 years behind in the past. Anything worth building will not be recognized by the owner since they are not professionals.
The owner is not going to pay extra for something they don't understand or know about. Therefore, becoming an architect today doesn't mean much, and it is an outdated profession with a dead end outcome. Also, it for sure doesn't pay much. So, what's the point, there's no real challenges, and rewards with it.
An Architect can only do what the owner tells them and that's all. In the end it should not be apart of the educational system since this profession is that bad, and most (no job stability) cannot even make a living at it. Computer Technology, & Healthcare, is the way of the future.
Non Sequitur
Dec 19, 21 6:11 pm
Your "experience" is certainly not main stream and it appears your account here only exists to repeat the same sad song... over and over. Perhaps it's not the profession, maybe it's just you've had bad luck or have a different expectation (or are just bad... who knows?).
RJ87
Dec 20, 21 2:18 pm
I actually laughed at that when I went back up and read his username.
If most Architects would only try to build a building with his own two hands he would fail. An Architect is there to design for the builders, and the owner is the one with all the creativity, and if he doesn't like what he's getting the architect is finished. These days, an Architect is only a paper pusher, with the hope of being creative.
Greg k
Dec 22, 21 12:32 pm
If most Architects would only try to build a building with his own two hands the would fail. An Architect is there to design for the builders, and the owner is the one with all the creativity, and if he doesn't like what he's getting the architect is finished. These days, an Architect is only a paper pusher, with the hope of being creative.
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 21 2:15 pm
Speak for yourself. I can do finished carpentry, concrete, lay brick, frame wood studs, and weld.
My clients hire me for my creativity and understanding of bundling science and construction. Clients may have ideas regarding what they want but I help them make those ideas a reality.
Also - I work for the client, not the contractor. Unless I'm doing design build- which I avoid except for a few trusted contractors.
Greg k
Dec 22, 21 12:37 pm
The definition of an Architect has changed. Now it's called, a puppet on a string. Why would anyone want to become an architect when the building technologies are 100 years behind in the past. Anything worth building will not be recognized by the owner since they are not professionals.
The owner is not going to pay extra for something they don't understand or know about. Therefore, becoming an architect today doesn't mean much, and it is an outdated profession with a dead end outcome. Also, it for sure doesn't pay much. So, what's the point, there's no real challenges, and rewards with it.
An Architect can only do what the owner tells them and that's all. In the end it should not be apart of the educational system since this profession is that bad, and most (no job stability) cannot even make a living at it. Computer Technology, & Healthcare, is the way of the future.
Chad Miller
Dec 22, 21 2:09 pm
My career and experience differs quite a bit from yours.
It could be because you're not an architect and have been treated poorly? Is that why you're so bitter?
Non Sequitur
Dec 22, 21 3:47 pm
Chad, this greg fellow only exists here to repeat the same sad song. Looks like they can't get over that perhaps it's not us, maybe it's him.
midlander
Dec 22, 21 5:02 pm
there are lots of shit jobs in healthcare fwiw. i'd rather be an architect than a home health aide or even a nurse.
Volunteer
Dec 23, 21 8:35 am
Many people here (not me) would point out that you can't hate being an architect because to their twisted, desiccated brains you are not one since you don't have a license.
That said, I would jump through the remaining hoops to get your license and do the annual qualifications for a few years in case you have a change of heart.
RJ87
Dec 23, 21 11:11 am
Edit: Never mind, it's not worth debating.
Hallie Crouch
Feb 25, 22 4:33 pm
@heffany227 I was exactly where you were 10 years ago. There is no longer one single way to practice in the profession. Finding an alternative path kept me in the field I love, but DOING what I love. Sharing my article that was just released this week on my story and alternative careers. If you are on the eclipse of a career, at an uncertain moment, or taking your first steps into the profession, see the tips and resources at the end ;) (Page 16-17). I'd be happy to talk on LinkedIn if you'd like to talk more. https://issuu.com/youngarchite...
whistler
Mar 2, 22 5:11 pm
Architecture is awesome .... having clients is the shitty part!
Stasis
Apr 11, 22 10:33 pm
I can do you one better.. having clients who's looking to sue you at the end of the project..
whistler
Apr 12, 22 3:11 pm
Haha, yes I have
had that too!
Non Sequitur
Apr 12, 22 3:32 pm
Our office has been sued and given new projects by the same client on the same day. For some, it's just business.
Stasis
Apr 11, 22 10:52 pm
I was in Architecture about 12 years then became a Project Manager Now, I am currently working as a PM in EAC team where I manage 12-14 disciplines based on projects and up to 30 people in a team... Working as a PM/DM takes different skills sets and whole another set of problems (clients, budget, scope, your own people, profit margin), but you also get a good overview of a building project. Having architectural background and MEP coordination experience helped me to understand projects lot better than my peers. If you get into Project Management field, then you can go into different sectors and become a PM on the client sides too.. I can potentially get a job at tech, biotech, defense, transportation industries and run their capital projects. As someone else said, there is lot of money in tech and biotech. If you choose to work at an EAC firms like me, then you can also go back to architecture when you want.. I sometimes do code analysis and perform peer reviews for my fellow architects. Because of my billing rate, I don't use CAD/BIM anymore, but I can still kick anyone's butt and troubleshoot Revit issues for my colleagues :). I guess one downside may be that you don't have much of creative inputs and you are constantly in meetings with other folks. Upsides, I think, are better pay, work schedules, and more mobility/opportunity. I don't remember last time I worked overtime as a PM (though you have to watch everyone's manhours).
axonapoplectic
Oct 13, 22 9:23 am
What is an “EAC team?”
axonapoplectic
Oct 13, 22 9:24 am
Engineering architecture construction? Eastern Arizona college? Environmental analysis and communications? East African community?
jeromemorleylarsonsr.
Oct 13, 22 12:26 am
just wait until you open a door on something you designed and your heart skips a beat at how nice it is — all the pain of process washes away in an instant — then make the decision; but, of course, you will be hooked —after sixty-three years in my own practice, three thousand projects with one thousand actually built, it never gets old — and the learning process never ends — i can fly out of EWR in any direction and see patterns on the ground i created — not all wonderful, but everyone with some special story — and now, with my ancient wisdom, i am redesigning the entire planet; because i can (and as a gift to my grandchildren and their kids) — but i will still drop everything to remodel your kitchen!
cynnamon79
Mar 2, 23 8:22 am
Hi, just curious where the OP ended up in all of this. Did you change jobs? Change careers?
heffany227
Mar 2, 23 7:33 pm
Hi cynnamon, about a year after I wrote this post, I did end up changing jobs, started working at a different architecture firm in my city. I kept going on and off trying to study for other career paths (coding, UX design, web design), and I explored doing a coding bootcamp or possibly a masters in a different field. Went to therapy for a bit to help me process these emotions and all this confusion about a big potential life change, which I strongly recommend to anyone who is financially able to and in a similar situation. I really like my new job a lot more - it’s a bigger company which helps to take care of some of the issues I had at my old job, the people are a lot nicer and kinder, the type of work allows me to work with kinder clients. I’ve being working on my AREs. I will say I am finding myself at that one year itch, wondering once again if this career path is right for me or not. I would like to keep my options open as I move forward through life - I’m realizing as someone who changes my mind often I need to just expect I’ll want a job (or maybe even career) change every few years to experience something new and different. Overall things are much better for me now!
cristianfernandez
May 24, 23 11:27 am
...
marksoroko
Jun 13, 23 1:04 am
No the architectural profession is not worth it. NCARB, AIA, ARE, NAAB all mislead young people going into the profession. The architectural graduates are growing at an 8 percent yearly rate, while the construction industry grows at a 2 percent rate. Architects serve the upper end of the construction market, not the lower to middle end because graduates lack a background in real estate, construction, or engineering - critical ingredients for success to penetrate that market sector. Bottom lime. There are more architects in the USA than in China. There is a 30 percent oversupply of architects to jobs ...thus low wages, lousy benefits, no advancement, and no job security. If you are young go for a career change. You cannot support a family in this profession.Strongly suggest using your education to go into corporate facilities. eg US Milcon, Walmart Store Planning, Apple Retail Services etc.
Chad Miller
Jun 13, 23 11:21 am
Let me guess - you couldn't find a position as an architect.
On a side note - the advice you give is horrible. Working in corporate facility type jobs (not a career) are low paying, unstable, and have horrible long term prospects.
In addition - the growth rate for architectural graduates is 5% compared to the last six years where the growth rate was nearly zero. New graduates is not keeping up with the demand that is needed for new architects.
sameolddoctor
Jun 13, 23 1:33 pm
Chad, I think things are a bit harder for fresh grads these days than some of us who have been in the business 10-15 years...
With the stagnant salaries and high inflation, I do not think it is worthwhile for a young grad to go into a traditional architecture role. Sure, there are many job openings these days, but the pay-scale and rate of pay growth is really not commensurate with on-ground realities, at least in big cities.
Also, I do not think that corporate facility planning roles are dead-end, they do offer a much better life-work ratio and steady paycheck.
Chad Miller
Jun 13, 23 1:51 pm
I don't think salaries are stagnant for new grads - they are being paid more now than three years ago. As for pay rate and growth with 'on-ground realities in big cities' I assume you mean the amount of work required isn't commensurate with the pay. If that's the case then move to a new firm. You don't have to work in a big city where there are large amount of new grads trying to work in the same 2-3 huge firms.
Finally, your impression of corporate facility planning roles are not correct. I know of plenty of such jobs (not careers) that pay poorly, have bad hours, no work life balance, and have poor job security.
As I've said many times on this site it's all about the firm you work with (NOT FOR).
pandahut
Jun 13, 23 2:35 pm
FWIW I know plenty of people who work in corporate facility positions that are paid out the ass with 5-10 years experience. I don't have a foot in this argument however. I was recruited by a few tech companies that were looking for facility architects (Tesla, Rivian) that paid upwards of 120k-150k for 5-7 years experience but I was not willing to move to the middle of nowhere. Those positions are MUCH more volatile of course and when times get hard those people are the first to get cut.
Chad Miller
Jun 13, 23 2:45 pm
The corporate facility positions I was referring to where the store planners that marksoroko mentioned. Those type of positions don't pay well, ect. Being a facility architect - that's a different story and is not the same as a facility planner.
JLC-1
Jun 13, 23 4:32 pm
"There are more architects in the USA than in China"
Then guess who's doing most of the architecture in China.
Chad Miller
Jun 13, 23 4:37 pm
Scandinavians?
No, no, it's the French!
What about Icelanders?
I give up, who is it JCL-1? ;)
Non Sequitur
Jun 13, 23 7:11 pm
It’s never the French, or it’s always. J’oublie. Sacrament.
sameolddoctor
Jun 13, 23 9:10 pm
Chad, I think your info/outlook may be very regional, if I had to hazard a guess. I appreciate you being a cheer leader for this profession, but facts are facts.
For example, a recent grad in LA used to make around 35k in 2003, and they probably make around 50k now, in 2023 - so a growth of 40%. At the same time inflation has grown to around 56% in LA. Not to mention a much more saturated market (architects dont die off lol).
So, not sure if financially it is a prudent decision for a youngin to stay in architecture.
Chad Miller
Jun 14, 23 10:35 am
sameolddoctor - no one's pay has kept up with inflation since the mid 90's. This isn't limited to architecture. As for the saturated market - that's a regional thing. Overall the amount of fresh grands and architects has been going DOWN since 2008.
sameolddoctor
Jun 14, 23 5:27 pm
Wrong, the pay for tech has only gone up since the mid 90s, and fresh law grads get paid at least a 100% more than what they were paid 20 years ago. I really understand the passion for the profession, but to say it is a sustainable business in today's times is just not true. As i said before, people like myself with 15-20 years of experience have it slightly easier than fresh grads.
Chad Miller
Jun 14, 23 5:55 pm
You site tech and law as two of thousands of careers that make more than they where 20 years ago. The same applies for architecture. Here are some actual numbers according the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Look it up.
Fresh law grads make 5% more than they did in 1995 when adjusted for inflation.
Fresh tech grads make 15% more than they did in 1995 when adjusted for inflation.
The average fresh architectural grad makes 10% more than they did in 1995 when adjusted for inflation.
I'm not saying that architectects shouldn't be paid more. I'm saying that with the exception of rare few most people's pay hasn't kept up with inflation. It's not just architecture.
Wood Guy
Jun 26, 23 9:38 am
Chad, I just spend some time on the BLS website and I can't find the data you share--any chance you could point me in the right direction?
The statistics you share note "when adjusted for inflation" seems to contradict your stated viewpoint. I wonder how the comparison to inflation compares to the change in the consumer price index--i.e., the actual cost of living. I know that the apartment I rented near Boston in the mid-90s now goes for about three times what it did then, but I'm sure pay has not increased that much.
Chad Miller
Jun 26, 23 11:00 am
Simply search the site - that's how I found the pay over the years.
Stating that pay increases are adjusted for inflation doesn't contradict my viewpoint. Figures have to be adjusted for inflation - if not someone in 1995 would make $38k a year and someone in 2023 would make $75k a year showing a nearly 50% increase in wages without taking into account the purchasing power of said pay.
It's important to note that just because pay is going up that doesn't mean that it's keeping up with inflation. That's not what this was about though. Someold said that pay for entry level architects hasn't gone up since the mid 90's. Someold went on to say that every other profession has had their entry level pay go up . That's not true. To be fair almost no one's pay has kept up with inflation since the mid 90's.
joseffischer
Jun 26, 23 11:51 am
2003 - Birmingham AL, $35k, had options in Atlanta for roughly the same, generally not a strong candidate (more in construction) so I know better fresh grads at the firm I was at and friends at others who were at $38-42... I was definitely the low ball. My salary increased by leaps and bounds each year though, as I got more utilized in CA quickly and generally fell into my niche.
At our firm now, we can't get anyone in the door for less than $70k. Atlanta GA. No fresh grad is hitting $80 though, so tightish range. Let's say $5k difference across the band. However, the difference between Arch 1-3 is very minimal, so way less incentive and way more frustration to work through the lowest rungs of their career.
so 20 years, 2003-2023, roughly 100% increase. (anecdotal obviously)
joseffischer
Jun 26, 23 11:59 am
bls.gov CPI inflation calculator, 35k in May 2003 is now 58k in May of 2023... so stands to say fresh grads now are killing it compared to myself. I'll also add the mentality has definitely changed. I was willing to try everything and do anything assigned to me and totally interested in learning the ins/outs. I get that most grads won't necessarily become designers (Chad excluded) and therefore have to go through an architectural personality crisis if they're going to stay in the profession. That said I'm still amazed as the resident technical/code/CD/CA back-of-house guru in-office at how many eye rolls or outright refusals I get from younger staff when they get assigned to tasks/roles more in my wheelhouse. I've had quite a few hard conversations along the lines of "no, you didn't draw the short straw, if you had what it takes you'd still be designing. This isn't a death sentence to your design career, but you really need to view these next few months on project X as an opportunity to learn the nuts and bolts of architecture and hopefully that will influence your design and support where you want your career to be."
Larchinect
Jun 25, 23 11:13 pm
Interesting thread.
As an employer I can see the 'next generation' carrying the mentality of 'do what makes the most money and takes the least amount of time...dont try to get fulfillment from your job...'
The paradigm today is a job is just a job, A lot of people are punching clocks and wondering why they're still miserable. They dont ask questions, show no initiative, and generally do as little as possible to not get fired, which is quite a little these days.
Thing is--you're only cutting yourself short. You're still at your desk for 8 hours a day. Even if you're working from home and able to pretend to work for 4 hours and do only 4 hours of actual work, those 4 hours add up--you might as well spend them doing something meaningful. If you're drafting trash chutes, study it. Learn how to make an awesome one or even improve the design. If you're feeling pigeon holed, say something. Ask to be given another task that interests you. As an employer I would be fine with that. Theres always way more to be done than can be done, try to pitch in and take some pride in whatever you're doing. Humans need to work, to contribute something. I like to think we're all making the world a better place. If you're not, go work somewhere else.
square.
Jun 26, 23 12:31 pm
Ask to be given another task that interests you. As an employer I would be fine with that.
very generous of you, employer!
____
Jun 26, 23 1:59 pm
Please share some more wisdom from your enlightened perspective on the "spoiled" generation. Maybe throw in a few barbs about "welfare queens" while you are at it. You are on a roll.
Chad Miller
Jun 26, 23 2:15 pm
Larchinect wrote:
"Interesting thread."
It's also informative.
“As an employer I can see the 'next generation' carrying the mentality of 'do what makes the most money and takes the least amount of time...dont try to get fulfillment from your job...' “
I’m 45 years old. I’ve been in this profession for about 20 years. I have not encountered this with the ‘next generation’
Also, what type of firm do you run? How many team members do you have?
“The paradigm today is a job is just a job, A lot of people are punching clocks and wondering why they're still miserable. They don’t ask questions, show no initiative, and generally do as little as possible to not get fired, which is quite a little these days.”
Again, I’ve never encountered this. I have encountered that people are expecting to be paid fairly for the work they do and maintain work / life balance.
"Thing is--you're only cutting yourself short. You're still at your desk for 8 hours a day. Even if you're working from home and able to pretend to work for 4 hours and do only 4 hours of actual work, those 4 hours add up--you might as well spend them doing something meaningful."
That’s a lot to unpack in one run on sentence.
Are you trying to say since you’re going to be unhappy for eight hours you might as well be unhappy for 10 or 12? I ask because doing 'meaningful' work won't necessarily make someone happy.
“If you're drafting trash chutes, study it. Learn how to make an awesome one or even improve the design. If you're feeling pigeon holed, say something. Ask to be given another task that interests you. As an employer I would be fine with that. “
First off it’s not a task. It’s part of the design process. Second, would you be willing to actually give the team member a new part of the design process?
“Theres always way more to be done than can be done, try to pitch in and take some pride in whatever you're doing. Humans need to work, to contribute something. “
Taking pride in your work doesn’t mean you need to work more than 40 hours a week.
“I like to think we're all making the world a better place. If you're not, go work somewhere else.”
I agree. If your not happy at the firm you work with then you should move to a different one.
Larchstein
Jun 26, 23 8:56 pm
In the last 5 years I dont think ive ever asked any employee to work more than 40 hours.
Larchstein
Jun 26, 23 8:56 pm
Oops hit post by accident..wanted to add
Larchstein
Jun 26, 23 8:56 pm
Oops hit post by accident..wanted to add
Larchstein
Jun 26, 23 9:01 pm
Wanted to add…over the last two years I’ve watched employees regularly come in after 9, go home for an hour in the middle of the day and still leave at 4:45. As an employer, its tough. It took us nearly 6 months to hire our latest person and outmr productivity is the lowest its ever been while work keeps coming over the transom. Im not seeing much passion or drive.
archiwutm8
Jul 4, 23 5:24 am
Honestly, this whole comment screams that you don’t understand the “current generation”
archiwutm8
Jul 4, 23 5:24 am
Honestly, this whole comment screams that you don’t understand the “current generation”
Chad Miller
Jul 5, 23 12:15 pm
Larchstein wrote:
“Wanted to add…over the last two years I’ve watched employees regularly come in after 9, go home for an hour in the middle of the day and still leave at 4:45. As an employer, its tough. It took us nearly 6 months to hire our latest person and outmr productivity is the lowest its ever been while work keeps coming over the transom. Im not seeing much passion or drive.”
It might be your firm and its leadership style. I’m not encountering this with our interns.
May I ask what type of work your firm does? It could be that your new staff simply isn’t interested?
Larchinect
Jun 25, 23 11:16 pm
I also suspect a lot of junior designers are listening to their profs and going to work at corporate firms in popular places. Try going somewhere you're really needed and maybe can even take some more responsibility. The work may not be as glamorous, but I always personally thought it was more exciting to play a bigger, more direct role in making something, even small in a dusty corner of the earth than being a small cog in a big machine so detached from the end product. Put yourself out there, stick your neck out..do something different.
joseffischer
Jun 26, 23 2:05 pm
we've got some small consistent $2-5M const cost work that the firm was excited to take on to fill the gaps between large projects and give junior designers more ownership in the design. The idea was that select people would get the opportunity to go from start to finish and own the entire thing. The general take from arch1-3s is no one wants them, they're too small, bland, boring, "not design" and they all want to be on the $300M tower, but oh yeah, they don't want to do the bathrooms for the $300M tower either.
marksoroko
Jun 26, 23 9:11 pm
Architectural Schools, Design Magazines, AIA, and others make Design - GOD! There are even dumb slogans like "Design makes a difference." From the client's point of view design is a hygiene factor. More design does not make you a better person than having a flashy car or wearing stylish clothes. What counts in architecture is being able to create a real estate product which the market wants, needs and can afford. Looks are not that important. .AIA has a history of giving design awards to buildings that bankrupt clients (eg. IDS Center) or fail catastrophically (eg. Kemper Arena), buildings which are obsolete in less than a decade etc.
Architecture is not a religion or a messianic cult. Architectural Schools raise little narcissists who want to build their own mega work of art, or ego pyramid-have someone else pay for it-then find fame, immortality and fortune to support a hedonist life. Sorry guys...the world doesn't work that way. To succeed in architecture you need social contacts. These are hard to come by when you work at a desk all day long. Young students need to understand Architectural Offices are not set up like attorney offices where you are a assigned a client.The salesman who brings the job in gets both the money and the design commission. If you can't sell - you will fail. Forget CAD, Revit, Rhino and all the other techy gadgets. A/E offices need to realize there are serious long term health issues from working all day behind a computer. Deep Vein Thrombosis, Retina Degeneration, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, Crippling Arthritis, Varicose Leg Ulcers and others. Is your health worth sacrificing for sawdust? Offices will not pay good wages, provide steady employment, offer good benefits, or decent working conditions unless fundamental professional services and business strategy issues are resolved. Architects need a high volume-low dollar service with mass appeal. Instead they have a high dollar, low volume service with little overall market appeal. Supply does not create its own demand. I urge young architects to abandon the obsolete AIA Business Model and get into a growing industries.
bowling_ball
Jun 26, 23 11:04 pm
A little (or a lot) cynical, but you're not wrong either. 95% of us have no formal business training at all, and yeah, we went to school to learn to design, not how to get clients. It's to be expected and needs to change to keep up with our changing economy.
mission_critical
Jun 28, 23 12:39 am
I’m be interested to hear what you think a growing industry is. Personally, I left “architecture” after I got all my hours to become licensed. Got into real estate brokerage to learn lead generation and sales (aka how to get business). Real estate is very little in terms of out of pocket expenses and barrier to entry, but has a very high attrition rate due to no
clients = no food on the table.
mission_critical
Jun 28, 23 1:01 am
Continued. I’m now getting back into “architecture” but from the design/build angle. My first project will be a self-developed spec home to show my target clients (small scale developers) I know how to get a project done that looks good, has high margins and gets done on time. Once I sell this spec home I got another one lined up and then I’ll roll these into a sixplex. My services will be customizable spec homes and low rise multi family, doing mainly design, project management (herding subs) and construction administration. To eliminate low time value drafting I’ll be relying on premade plans to avoid reinventing the wheel and one-off detailing. I’ll be releasing my journey on YouTube. Currently still weeding my lots but construction should start mid July. I got into architecture to build stuff, not be glorified desk jockey. I’m fed up with architecture schools purposefully separating us from “mere builders” by focusing completely on design, when at the end of the day all they create are graphic designers that have no clue how a building actually gets put together. Once I’m situated my goal is to teach architects/designers how to build a house from start to finish - not sure how yet.
Wood Guy
Jun 28, 23 8:47 am
Do you follow John Anderson? He does a lot of education around cost-effective, thoughtful, small development. Same with Ross Chapin.
Chad Miller
Jun 28, 23 10:39 am
In regards to your goal of how to teach architects how to build and house . . . are you not sure how to teach or not sure how to build a house? I belive you mean the former but wanted to make sure.
On a related note it sounds like you've experienced some horrible architectural schools with poor education and attitudes. That's unfortunate.
mission_critical
Jun 28, 23 11:00 pm
@wood guy No I haven’t heard of John Anderson. My initial google search points me towards an architect in Chico CA? Is this the same John Anderson? If not, I’d like to see his work.
mission_critical
Jun 28, 23 11:00 pm
@wood guy No I haven’t heard of John Anderson. My initial google search points me towards an architect in Chico CA? Is this the same John Anderson? If not, I’d like to see his work.
mission_critical
Jun 28, 23 11:57 pm
@chad miller Both. And yes, this stems from my graduate school education. I got my BS in Biology. Graduated in 2009, went to grad school for Landscape Arch, then double mastered with Arch with a certificate in Real Estate. My education was entirely focused on “the big picture.” While I did have classes that focused on detailing and structures, nothing prepared me for having someone come up to me after graduation and asking me to design a house with four walls and a roof (without it falling down, a mud sill is to wipe the mud off your boots right?). The guy I’m partnering with knows all of this but he graduated like 30 years ago when architects were supposed to know basic structural engineering. Education has gone to the dogs and is reinforcing project architects slowly transition into building code compliance consultants (at least commercial architects). I’m considering offering free yearly residential training studio once I get established over the next few years (like 6-8 people at a time) I suppose this will be limited to PNW architects since our rainscreen states and foundation
are different than else where.
joseffischer
Jun 29, 23 2:16 pm
... project architects slowly transition into building code compliance consultants... j'accuse! That hit home
mission_critical - it sounds like you got taken advantage of by the school(s) and spread yourself too thin. I'm sorry to hear this.
Nearly every good program I know of (including the one I attended) was a minimum of five years of intensive architectural related classes (including studio design) that provided grads with a technical understanding of how to design, detail, and build projects. Obviously this was a bare minimum of understanding and you still needed work experience to become better. Basically upon graduation you could be given a few sketches for a simple project (say a wood framed home) from your boss and create decent DD level drawings.
ill_will
Jun 30, 23 10:58 pm
Do the non-sexual equivalent cucking, but for architecture. "archicuckture"
archeyarch
Jul 10, 23 12:27 am
This discussion is never ending, and rightly so. It's hard to find anyone who truly likes the field. Lots of comments, but no solution.
Chad Miller
Jul 10, 23 10:35 am
I like the field about 60% of the time. The solution is simple: If you don't like the field you're in move to a different field.
Non Sequitur
Jul 10, 23 11:06 am
I truly like this field. I get to work on many different types of projects where I have to make creative decisions while solving an seemingly indefinite list of complicated problems. I get to point to many buildings in my city and proudly claim: "yeah bitch, I did that." The solution is find a work environment that suits your ambitions/needs and not simply cry foul when the world does not instantly bend to your needs.
Almosthip
Jul 10, 23 11:16 am
I love my job as well. Been as the same place of employment for almost 16 years. Its defiantly all the reasons that Non S says above. Plus I like my co-workers, we have all been together for a very long time. I work in a small city, and so many building here have ties to my firm, there is a pride in quality work that we do.
Hello all,
I have found myself in a bit of a conundrum lately. I am an emerging professional in the field of architecture, but for the past couple of years, I’ve really been questioning this career path I have chosen for myself. I love architecture, I love buildings, I love cities. I have wanted to be an architect since I was 10. However, I really, really hate the work I do every day as a professional architect. I’m not licensed yet, and I’m thinking about giving up on my dream to get licensed and switch into a different career.
I’m having a hard time figuring out if all architecture jobs are this grueling, or if it’s my specific role. I hate how much engineering is involved, and I will spend all day looking at trash chutes or detailing window sills, and I just don’t care about any of that. I’m just wondering, are there any creative-type architects out there who actually enjoy their jobs and think it’s worth it? I know that entry level positions are no dream job, but even when I look at the work anyone senior that me does it looks even worse. I’m really considering making a career move into UX/UI design, but I don’t want to leave architecture of there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Does anyone have any positive experiences as an architect? Or anyone who has a positive experience of leaving architecture for another profession? Anyone get licensed before leaving the profession and sees any pros/cons with that?
Thanks!
Don't care for trash chutes either but love me a good window sill though...
Maybe go into concept development or something if you just want to churn out ideas and have others worry about how it's done.
Or open your own shop and hire the ones that do those jobs for you.
Can you explain a bit more what you mean by concept development? What does that entail and how would somebody just starting out find that type of opportunity?
I'm a student currently and I love the concept/design development aspect of my studio courses and internship experience but, as others are saying, some of the more technical stuff feels like it kind of takes over
Have a look at: https://www.demannenvanschuim.nl/?lang=en or https://blauwhoed.nl/en it is about coming up with concepts for real estate projects for developers.
I think it depends on the environment you work in as well. For me I am used to the rigorous and time consuming work that NEEDS to be done. What I am NEVER going to get used to is the shithead developer mentality a lot of these big corporate firms have. I've had experience in both tiny and large scale firms doing all sorts of projects form a designer position. One thing I learned is that I can no longer deal with outdated policies, top down bashing over the head with unrealistic deadlines and just sheer ego that comes with putting up tall glass and metal collage boxes like Hudson yards.
i’m younger (20) so i would like to know how are you guys able to pay for such expensive art schools and for a risky degree
Here's how I see it: Every job has its share of bullshit.
I don't know what the popular mantra is these days but when I was coming up in the world we were saturated with the refrain of: "Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life." Now I'm in my mid-30s and I realize that's a damn lie. Every job has a lot of tasks that are absolutely essential to the success of the job that are also absolutely mind-numbing and/or completely frustrating. The way I see it, your best shot is to figure out what drives you enought that you can tolerate the bullshit.
For me, that's architecture. A good 75% of day to day architecture is slogging through difficult, frustrating, and unrewarding work to get the job done. But the other 25% is so personally fulfilling that I can push through knowing the end result is worth it.
Is architecture rewarding enough to you that you can justify all the bullshit? Only you can answer that. But what I can tell you is that if you move into a different career with the hope that it will feature less bullshit, you'll only be disappointed. You'll just find different bullshit there, so be prepared to deal with it and ask yourself "Do I enjoy this enough to do the bullshit?"
Good luck!
"do what you love" = bullshit needs to be said on every forum related to working in architecture.
Agree 100%. I'd put the "fun" parts at closer to 20%. If I can have fun at work for an hour or two each day, I can get through the drudgery. Long ago I was into reading self-help books that were all about "do what you love" and came across one that shocked me--the point was, "do what you can make the most money at in the least amount of time and don't expect your source of income to also be your source of fulfillment." It's a Boomer way of thinking, but despite that I think it's correct. That said, if you absolutely hate 95% of your job, then maybe you should look elsewhere.
"do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" could be read literally to mean if you simply follow your passion you'll be unemployed. i know for someone like me whose passion is sitting outside drinking tea reading crap online that's probably true...
I grew up in a house where work was seen as work. There was none of this "dream job" talk because such a thing was so outside of the realm of possibility for my parents, they just figured work was work and not a path to happiness or anything but a paycheque. And I'm so glad about that - I see the huge disappointment in people when they realise they've been lied to. Or even worse, when somebody refuses to accept anything less than their perfect dream job, and so are constantly disappointed and questioning everything. The concept of enjoying one's work is younger than many of the posters here. For thousands of years, work was an exchange of labour for money, and that hasn't changed.
For thousands of years, work was an exchange of labour for money
not exactly; the wage laborer is a pretty modern thing, at least as a widespread condition. for example, medieval serfs rarely made money (and worked much less than we do now), and a lot of labor was compelled through various forms of slavery.
your point is still a good one, though i would hope as we progress as a society, and generate more wealth than ever, we can move beyond work as drudgery (for everyone), or at least alleviate it a bit.
An hour or two *each* day?! We should all be so lucky.
Wood Guy your comment reminded me of a snarky tweet I made recently:
"For me, that's architecture. A good 75% of day to day architecture is slogging through difficult, frustrating, and unrewarding work to get the job done. But the other 25% is so personally fulfilling that I can push through knowing the end result is worth it"
I appreciate the earnestness of this viewpoint, and overall I'd say it's decent advice. But it's also a very drab and depressing rationalization of how to endure the drudgery of work. Let's be generous and assume 20%-25% fulfillment is correct. That's a staggeringly low percentage of ones entire working career. So we go into the office (pandemics not included) 1 day a week for our own benefit, and the other 4 days are only to benefit the bosses? And for how many years? Yeesh.
"I grew up in a house where work was seen as work. There was none of this "dream job" talk because such a thing was so outside of the realm of possibility for my parents, they just figured work was work and not a path to happiness or anything but a paycheque"
As did I, and it's why I think for some of us it's easier to soberly view work that is done in exchange for currency as a form of drudgery (not trying to be dramatic, just honest) that is necessarily done as means of keeping ones head above water. There are no illusions of finding spiritual fulfillment or meaning in work for people who grow up working class, it's just something you do to keep yourself fed, clothed, and have a warm bed to sleep in.
Sure, you can try to find ways to whistle while you work, but you'll still need to find avenues outside of your desk to motivate you to eventually buy your way out of wage slavery. Some days I like my job, some days I merely tolerate it, and other days I despise it to the point of not wanting to draw lines or answer any emails or sit in any more endless coordination meetings.
But if I had the financial security and means to not have to work in exchange for money, I probably wouldn't, and I think many people feel this way. Working class people own this feeling of contempt for drudgery (and their management/bosses), but its mostly the petite bourgeois middle class people who endlessly search for meaning from their labor by feverishly trying to climb slippery career ladders where they ultimately confuse rank and position with their sense of "purpose"
Totally agree, newguy. I bought into the company to be my own boss, which comes with its own, different set of stresses. I could easily (mentally, not financially) retire if I had the means.
really interesting perspective, though a little different for me. i grew up in a somewhat working class home, and have family members that were teachers (i realize this is a job that straddles working class/professional class), but they found a ton more fulfillment from their work than i do in architecture. so while i think there are jobs out there that are incredibly meaningful and fulfilling, the vast majority are like you describe.
if you don't care about how a building is built, what do you care about?
It's not all glitz and glory; all parts of a building are important. Have you talked to your peers; are they having similar experiences or do you think it's your specific role? If it's specific to your firm, it never hurts to explore options at other firms. Although you'll never get away from working on details that you rather not do or that are just a draggggg. I hate door jamb/sill/head details and door schedules but it's part of the job.
If you don't like what your bosses are doing, probably best to move on. It's true that the amount of grueling effort put into designing a building does not translate into good pay or decent hours even after years and years of experience and a license. I know a Thesis Prize winner from my school who left architecture for Data Science only three years in, another UI/UX design just after a year and change. This profession chews up and spits out even the most talented, let alone the mediocre like myself.
This profession is hard on emerging professionals, and experienced ones alike. If you don't love it now it will be hard to love it later. That said you just may be in the wrong firm/situation.
Before leaving the field, I suggest you change firms and work somewhere that has a completely different portfolio, scale, delivery of services than the one you currently serve. After a couple of projects you will know the right path for you. Remember large commercial work often takes 4 -5 years to see designed and built, homes and smaller jobs a year or two.
I currently work in commercial (multi family) which is horribly developer driven and very cheap and uninventive. I did get a few months working on a single family residential project which I enjoyed much more. I was also working with a different boss, but the whole thing just seemed a lot more relaxed and more collaborative with the client than what I was used to in commercial. I’ve also done some work with sustainability residential construction research which I loved (non design role, all research, marketing, and some web design). I’ve just found there’s not a huge market for that kind of work in my area. The market is very tough right now to find many entry level positions to try something different. And I’ve also heard horror stories of people working is residential and how the clients can just be brutal all the time, so it’s hard to judge if that will even be worth it.
Commercial work is financially driven. The game there is how to do subtle things that make the building look nicer without blowing the budget. There are some days where I look at the end product & it just is what it is. But then certain projects come around where you have the opportunity to do something nice. Certain projects keep the lights on, other projects are what we put on the website. All depends on the budget, that's how the world works.
Not everyone wants to deal with the profession of architecture but the design education can be excellent. I always loved the story of the head Nike shoe designer Tinker Hatfield, finally got to see a documentary about him last summer, great story and probably never regrets his education in architecture. Helps if you basically designed every iconic shoe they ever produced though.... I am sure Michael Jordan agrees!
I have been an architect for 35 years and used my career as an experiment to find ways to make the experience of sticking with the profession less fraught, and more enjoyable and rewarding. Everybody is different but while challenging at times I have enjoyed every day of being an architect and have dedicated my career to help others find ways to stay - and find their place - in the field. I do this mostly by speaking and teaching, but also writing. This Saturday my 6th book will be published, this one is on this very topic - and for this one enlisted 50 architects from around the globe to share their experiences, insights, advice and wisdom about what it takes to stick with a career n architecture. I mention this because I want you to find a way to stay and find meaning and purpose in the field (not to sell books. After May 1, 2021 you can find a lengthy free pdf excerpt from the book by searching: "Taylor and Francis (publisher) Adapt As An Architect Randy Deutsch"). Wishing you well.
Adapt As An Architect: A Mid-Career Companion https://www.amazon.com/Adapt-A... or https://www.ribabooks.com/Adap...
Great Contribution to the Profession - worth having
this is the dilemma that i think all architect face in one way or another. i think alot of it stems from what the education promises, and what the profession delivers; increasingly, these two are moving further and further apart, with plenty of "blame" to go around. i absolutely loved the education, which opened my eyes to so many things, but especially to think critically in an very different way. like you though, i've had my struggles with the profession (5+ years in), and to echo your comments get more and more frustrated as we cram more and more technology/shit into buildings. there are many days where i find myself dreaming about leaving.
but to echo what many have said here, it's about landing somewhere that accommodates enough if the things you do enjoy to balance out the parts of the profession that absolutely suck, and in architecture this takes alot of time; i'm only just getting here. i would absolutely try to find another firm before you give up on the "investment."
either that, or you take the strategy that many artists do- find a job that is less demanding (retail, etc.) which allows you to pursue purely creative pursuits during your own time.
Academia & the vast majority of the profession are two very different things. Most kids in school think the profession is all museums, airports & high rises. No one talks about the projects the other 98% of firms work on.
i think they used to be much closer, but academia has been too slow to adapt, and the profession accepts any and all technological change/progress without question.
Architecture school prepares you for work in an architecture firm in the way that a degree in literature would prepare you for work at a bookbinding shop.
Love it
That said I loved academia. Arch school taught me to think like a designer. But I learned more about how to be a professional from working in kitchens & construction sites than I ever did in a design studio. Both are important, imo.
Architecture school prepares you for work in an architecture firm in the way that a degree in literature would prepare you for work at a bookbinding shop.
It was never my experience, but I didn't go to school in the US. Beyond the practical internships working in real life while in school, I had a couple of studios where you had to get to detail 1'-0" = 6" or so. Some people did it inversely, designed the whole project around the detail.
Free advice, quit! Do not do something you hate, no matter who, what or how much it pays.
Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for. If I quit, are you going to step up to pay my bills? No? Then let's get back to reality. Although your intentions are good, you're not really helping.
If you do not like the technical part of architecture at all, that could be a problem since it is a big part of architecture. Personally, I do not like the repetitive design limiting public school boxes I do. But I also do not desire starchitect. I am at the early stage of career, I believe in the future. I like detailing window sills if the assembly is unique and fun. Have you had the opportunity to experience project management meetings, schedules, fees? That is another part of architecture. Your preference is definitely different. If you only want design, you could try to shift to a large firm doing design only position. It is very competitive that requires really amazing portfolio showing graphic prowess. Try and see if you can land one. If it did not work out, maybe then you can see what you can transition to. One guy on forum told me he transitioned to IT coding and making 100K salary. He regret not doing sooner. So, it is not end of the world.
Yes, I think the biggest shock to me when entering the profession was the technical work. I don’t think I fully understood that my technical and engineering courses in college were what I was going to be doing every day all day so I never paid much attention. I literally always thought someone else just did it. I was definitely naive, and I wish I had read up on the non-starchitect profession more.
But yes the design architecture jobs are so competitive, assuming many people who went through architecture school were like me and didn’t really understand the full extent of the industry. I never even knew what a CD set was until 2 years ago when I started. I have always loved the graphics of architecture (board layouts, illustrative renderings, site analysis diagrams) and could literally do that all day. Moving into a more graphics/tech field sounds so appealing, but I do find it such a hard decision to make with so much time, money, and energy already invested into this. It’s hard to decide if giving it another year and getting my license is worth it, or just jumping ship before I lose my mind!
Yes, I think the biggest shock to me when entering the profession was the technical work. I don’t think I fully understood that my technical and engineering courses in college were what I was going to be doing every day all day so I never paid much attention. I literally always thought someone else just did it. I was definitely naive, and I wish I had read up on the non-starchitect profession more.
But yes the design architecture jobs are so competitive, assuming many people who went through architecture school were like me and didn’t really understand the full extent of the industry. I never even knew what a CD set was until 2 years ago when I started. I have always loved the graphics of architecture (board layouts, illustrative renderings, site analysis diagrams) and could literally do that all day. Moving into a more graphics/tech field sounds so appealing, but I do find it such a hard decision to make with so much time, money, and energy already invested into this. It’s hard to decide if giving it another year and getting my license is worth it, or just jumping ship before I lose my mind!
Don't have the perfect answer for you. But it definitely sounds like you only like the design and graphic aspects. Large firm design position is definitely the way to go if you can land one. Don't be afraid to jump if it is not for you. But also be strategic about it. Not just quit and thinking you will suddenly have a bright future in UX/UI. I can't tell you much about the transition, I don't even know exactly what UX/UI do other than basic understanding of graphic user interface design for apps.
Something for the OP to keep in mind that doing only design still requires a good knowledge of detailing and construction science.
It's also important to know that only doing design can create issues in job stability. When a recession hits the design staff is normally the first to go in most medium to large firms.
"doing *good* design"...I work with some designers that don't know squat about detailing and construction science and a lot of their design gets cut out because it's simply not feasible (usually because of budget.)
Jayy2211 giving advice? Priceless!
No, you're thinking of Jay1122. . .
Are there any happy architects out there? I ask because I’m also dreading my job more and more every day. It’s not horrible - my firm offers pretty decent benefits and my work-life balance is great compared to many others considering the level of work I get to do, but as the years go on, seeing a project come to fruition is slowly making the hours of work coordinating things I don’t care about less and less worthwhile. I’m also hesitant to keep with my current career trajectory, as I will inevitably be forced into a PM role soon. I get that it’s all part of the job but it’s not the reason I’m passionate about architecture.
I like whining more. But in all seriousness I didn’t intend to come across that way. I’m just realizing more each day that many people I talk to, even within my own firm and network, dread coming to work for a range of reasons. The root of my question was me trying to figure out if maybe I’m just not at a firm that fits me. Every company will have their own downsides but without getting into specifics of why my current company may not be the best fit for me personally, I’m holding out hope that maybe there’s a better role for me elsewhere. I do love WHY I do what I do, just not the day to day.
Don't let Balkins dunk on you. He has no grounds to call you out as being a whiner, and just because people suffer in silence doesn't mean they love their fucking jobs. Most people are scared of becoming homeless if they express anything other than adulation and false pleasure at work. It's bullshit and it needs to fucking stop. We love a good movie where someone says IM MAD AS HELL AND IM NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE while telling real life folks that they're just whiners. GTFOH with that two-faced bullshit.
To address your actual point: "I’m also hesitant to keep with my current career trajectory, as I will inevitably be forced into a PM role soon."
This is real. This is bad. This is not a good way to run a firm (ARE YOU LISTENING ARCHITECTURE?) Hire PMs that didn't spend 5-15 years learning to design if you want someone good at Excel, client ass-kissing, billing, and scheduling. They don't need a fucking Arch degree. THEY DO NOT NEED AN ARCHITECTURE DEGREE.
Architecture firms hire HR people and Accountants that don't have Arch degrees, but we insist that PMs need one. So. Fucking. Dumb.
Is anyone here a PM or know any PMs in arch firms that don’t have an arch background? I know plenty of people that seem to have the perfect skillset for it, but every PM I’ve ever known lives and breathes architecture so it’s difficult for me to picture.
Overall I'm very happy with my professional life.
As am I. That doesn't mean (and I don't think you were suggesting this) there isn't room for improvement in the way the profession handles its humans.
i have a good career. always moments of grass is greener envy or the dissatisfaction after a project/job/initiative don't work out - but on the whole i'm satisfied. or to put it this way, it's far less distressing, uncomfortable, and profoundly rewarding than being a parent. the reality is that life itself is an unpleasant process that's nevertheless worthwhile if you follow your values.
Is anyone here a PM or know any PMs in arch firms that don’t have an arch background? I know plenty of people that seem to have the perfect skillset for it, but every PM I’ve ever known lives and breathes architecture so it’s difficult for me to picture.
i've worked with PM's who have civil engineering backgrounds. It would be hard to do the job without some professional knowledge of building design.
I hate how much engineering is involved, and I will spend all day
looking at trash chutes or detailing window sills, and I just don’t care
about any of that.
You don't expect being able to come up with an iconic building a year after you qualify, do you? Trash chutes and detailing is how most people start.
And, jokes aside, unless you are a star architect chances are even at a senior level your job may end up feeling quite mundane. Most jobs are.
It sounds like you were attracted to the field by the glitz and glamour of buildings designed by renowned architects but are disillusioned with the reality of day to day work.
Everyone goes to LA hoping to become the next George Clooney, but not everyone does...
My advice to you is to keep trying new firms until you figure out what you like. The best that comes out from this is the overall experience that you will receive from different ways firms operate and building typologies. Also the network of people that you will meet. At this point of your career you should be a sponge learning and leaning towards the older more experience professionals to guide you which is super hard in this competitive environment.
My biggest rule of thumb is that if I stop learning at a job and it becomes too repetitive I move on. I went from super design oriented firms to the corporate firms to the smaller firms. Every ship has its own capitan, with its own crew. I still have not find my path yet but I am in a way filtering what I like and what I don't like. I know that this will help me in the future when I have my own practice. So for now suck it up kid and keep on learning and enjoy the ride! Just remember the principals of today will be retiring our generation will take over to prepare the next.
Damn I wish someone has told me this 10 years ago!
Cheers.
/\ This is really good advice.
Architecture is a difficult field, you study so long and all the work experience you need before the professional exam...it's hard work.
If the study (and the loans) don't kill you and you manage to get a decent job where you get to help run jobs from start to finish, actually learn about architecture then it's well worth it doing the professional exam, getting registered........because the 15% that is design is really worth it when you see the finished end product, the other 85% gets forgotten (it's tedius when it's happening).
I would suggest that you change firms, try somewhere smaller, a niche market where there is more design involved (there will be engineering as well, and if you learnt anything from where you work now this will help you). This time is all about getting as much experience about 'the working environment' as possible, it should help you make choices in the future.
Does anyone have any experience with commercial work vs single family residential? From an outsiders perspective, single family seems to be more design orientated, obviously still has the technical aspects, but it seems to be a lot less of the focus, and detailing seems to be a bit more focused on specific design elements. Am I right to think this, or totally off base?
There's a wide range of residential work, so it depends. But consider that most people can't afford to build a new home & most homes in the US look pretty mediocre. But higher end residential focuses a lot more on finishes & finish level details. Mostly because of the millwork involved.
I started my career in custom residential & moved to commercial developer work about 6 years ago. There is still a lot of "technical" work in SFR, & like I said above it's still got it's fair share of BS. But you're not too far off in that there are some fundamental differences.. The major difference to me is motivation. Most commercial architecture is primarily motivated by finance, whether that's an improvments budget for an owner client or an ROI for a developer client. With residential (and to a lesser extent small commercial - restaurants and small shops), there's more of an emotional / experiential motivator. It doesn't always lead to *better* design but I find the conversations much more interesting, and the possibilities much wider. Of course exceptions exist on both sides (I've dealt with home renovation clients who are obsessed with the bottom line & little else, and developers who are very interested in driving good design) but as a general rule it's true enough
Personally I'd advise every young architect to (if they have the option) work in a small residential firm and a large commercial firm in the first decade of their career.
for the OP, i think the issue to consider is less what sector you're working in and more how much you respect the work. look for firms doing projects you admire and i think you'll find it much more engaging and worth pushing to get involved at higher level design work. if you're only doing drudgery work it's because no one trusts you to be comfortable leading on the design - which is understandable if you don't like the work the firm does.
i've worked commercial my entire career and love it btw - but i enjoy the challenges of getting an appealing design to fit within a developers constraints. obviously different architects have different goals.
FYI - Front Page
SOO much ennui
A post ironically written by someone who's not an architect.
Meh, semantics. They're doing the work of an architect and we all know what they meant.
Agreed on the meh front, just thought the headline with a sad picture being on the front page was ironic. Like I said in another thread, its just an involuntary twitch whenever I see people saying it. Wasn't meant to be malicious.
Hi!
This is the first time I posted on this forum in probably 15 years. I was in your position many years ago in 2002, working 90-100 hour weeks at what was supposed to be my dream job at a very craft-oriented firm overseas in Australia (was my first choice of firms anyway). Because of the extreme workload, and difficulty of acclimating to a new and frankly very insular culture, I was enticed to depart architecture and focus on digital design.
The good news is that you can apply architectural thinking to a number of creative fields, especially the rigorous process and seeking of numerous perspectives to inform design iterations. The bad news is there's not a day that goes by now where I am not thinking of some excuse to get back into the field, even if it's just building my own live-work studio as a side project.
Nothing is as pure and as difficult in the creative design field as architecture. IMHO, if you're not fanatically dedicated and somewhat of a masochist, there's simply no way to truly succeed at it. That being said, I have watched my closest architect friends pursue many different paths over the years, some more intense than others — everything from becoming the most prolific and well known large project architect in the world; to creating a modest regional practice with a slow output of very detail-oriented, craft focused residences.
If you truly love it, think twice about the divorce.
Your last posts were in October 2014 though...
Ha, yes — you are right! It seems I made a posting trying to source (gasp) linoleum floor that year. I should have specified, "the last time I commented upon another thread".
My previous (and long since deleted) account was from 1997 - 2006.
Cheers!
push through to get your license and then decide what you want to do. at least you could say you were a legit architect and not just someone who fizzled after architecture school. I think having license (current or past) would help establish some credibility/respect with future employers or clients if you venture into another field.
hate to break it you, this is my take almost 20 years in my career:
architecture school is mostly fun and exciting ... you're young, learning & experiencing inspiring new things ... and you probably do not have bills or anybody but yourself to worry about. you could equate it to the dating phase ... lots of laughing.
architecture profession is a job ... it requires offering a valuable service to clients/end-users who are committing a lot of money to a long-term investment, therefore it has to function and perform and stand the test of time... you know, those basic kinds of things that 'shelter' is supposed to do ... and you probably have bills or family to take care of. this is the marriage phase of architecture; there are rewarding moments, but they come with a lot of effort, struggle, compromise, and commitment ... lots of adulting.
Or pursue a career in academic. Continue to enjoy what you enjoyed as a student. Research, writing, design ,theory, etc. It is all good except its a very very competitive field. A lot of design critics are backed with impressive design portfolio or their own practices. Professors with PhDs. I would love to be in a studio and explore architecture without boundary again with the technical skills gained from actual practices. Not just churn out code compliant boxes for clients.
You can still explore architectural design and push the boundaries of design while still complying with building code. You just need to find the right firm to work for.
Chad, You are correct. But do keep in mind, A vast majority of actual projects have very limited design flexibility. A few sectors I can think of, Warehouses, most public civil projects, developer/low income housing, K-12, ordinary residential, most renovation projects. Only big sectors like Museum, higher Ed, rich corporate clients like google apple, have a much larger budget and flexibility. We all know where those project types end up. When someone takes the good project/firm, someone else has to take the bad one. Simply have everyone to go for the good one is not possible. The field is already competitive, only 50% students enter the field with available positions. Also, We have to discuss the level of creativity available in actual practice, it is a relative term. For some, having some offsetting boxes and glass curtainwalls = creative. For me, need something like the rolex learning center to be called creative and boundary pushing. Which is very unlikely to be done in actual practice. That design did not had budget in mind.
^ Excellent perspective from cbiii
"push through to get your license and then decide what you want to do. at least you could say you were a legit architect and not just someone who fizzled after architecture school. I think having license (current or past) would help establish some credibility/respect with future employers or clients if you venture into another field."
Trying to answer this on my phone... Anyway, this is pretty bad advice. I love hiring architects for non-architecture roles and not once has having a license stood out in any way. There is no credibility or respect that inherently comes from having a license. If you do not see yourself practicing architecture do not get your license. Also this perspective of "not just fizzled after architecture school" says more about the OPs view towards licensure as a status symbol than an actual tool.
"push through to get your license and then decide what you want to do....I think having license (current or past) would help establish some credibility/respect with future employers or clients if you venture into another field."
I hardly view licensure as a sense of status or entitlement. I merely see it as having completed a first and significant measure of professional knowledge and discipline … and that would help boost (more than it would hurt) one’s resume for an employer or field that may value those particular things. I admired my sister for attempting a marathon and the time and effort to train for it, and would have admired her the same had she not been able to finish. But I admired here that much more when she crossed the finish line.
Licensure is a gatekeeping tool to constrain supply of regulated services. Most employers outside of practice do not understand what it means to be licensed.
One of the values (in most states) is being an architect, as opposed to a designer. That professional distinction is legitimate and worth something (to most). I do agree that it doesn't make sense for everyone in the OP's spot to "push through" and get licensed. A lot depends on how far in one is. But to say it has no value is just false. It may not matter to this or that employer; fine. But it's a big world out there.
My main point is that you shouldn't strive to get your license because of what other people think. It's a decision you should make if you seek to practice architecture. If you do strive to get your license knowing that you do not want to practice architecture do not expect other industries to intuit some intrinsic value in a certification. GCs have less hurdles and own more risk from their license and no one outside of GCs would understand the value of that. I've talked to a lot of frustrated folks who are licensed and will never exercise it professionally. The highest leverage you have with the license is starting your own practice or joining another firm that will pay you a 25%+ salary bump because of it.
^ Fair enough. I agree that it would be nuts to start and complete the registration process for someone going into banking or insurance or retail, etcetera.
licensure is definitely much more of a tool to supply constraint than to confer value.
I don’t know where you are working, or the stage of your career, but some observations from a NZ registered architect… I graduated in 1998 and was licensed here in 2002. I wanted to become an architect since the age of 12, and once achieving that goal I was honestly a little lost. After burning out I taught English in Japan and that break from the profession - particularly rediscovering what was left of me and who I was when I wasn’t so focussed on being an architect - was invaluable in giving me perspective and balance. Since that time I worked in London before returning to Aotearoa NZ and have worked on a range of projects, and now mostly focus on running a practice and involvement in major complex projects.
These are my biggest takeaways.
_ architecture school did not prepare us for practice. Our education - necessarily - focussed hugely on design, and basically taught us to be design directors. The reality is that there are few of those in major practices. There are myriad ways to be an architect, all of which are creative, and these only reveal themselves in practice and in time.
_ I have always cherished other creative pursuits such as teaching, sketching, model-making, teaching, making music, podcasting (at 76 Small Rooms, like and subscribe!) to counter the inevitable drudgery of much of day-to-day practice.
_ if this is your first job, then CHANGE JOBS. Every practice and every architect is different. I have a friend who left the profession after 7 years working at just one practice. It was a poor fit for her outlook and ideas, and I still lament that she could have found a better path by working with different people. She - and no doubt you - has a huge amount to offer the profession and her departure was a real loss.
_ as much as this vocation is about the built environment, in my experience architecture is a people profession. I help run NZ’s largest architecture studio, and the skills I learned at architecture school are put into practice every day helping teams achieve things they didn’t know they could do. That’s not what I expected to be doing when I graduated, but it is deeply, deeply satisfying to assist people’s careers and the buildings they design in doing so.
_ find a mentor, maybe outside your current practice, who you can discuss your situation with and can give you a different perspective. Your pain sounds like the difference between expectations and your current reality. Which are you prepared to adjust, and which is achievable? There is a place for your approach out there, if you can find it.
_ what is your ‘why’? What do you want from your career? Your love of buildings and cities is desperately needed by both. Is your current job the place to exercise this? Maybe you’re an urban designer hiding inside an architecture degree? Maybe you’re not getting the creative fulfillment you seek (many of the above commenters, including myself, feel this way) so is there a clear pathway to getting that where you currently work or do you need to look elsewhere?
_ you also talk about the work being grueling. What is the culture like where you work, are teams celebrated for their efficiency and getting to the deadline without endless all-nighters, or do the leaders emphasise going above and beyond as the way to succeed. If the latter, you are in an unhealthy workplace and should look for saner and safer cultures.
_ Is someone responsible for your career development, do they have your back and are they advocating for your success? These are all things you are entitled to early in your career, and I know that nothing I’ve achieved has been done solely off my own back; it’s benefited from the support and advocacy of others the entire way.
Good luck, I really feel for you and have felt the same way many times in my own career. I have a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson pinned on my wall, and look at it every day: “There is something which you can do better than another. Listen to the inward voice and bravely obey that. Do the things at which you are great, not what you were never made for”. If the traditionally-defined ‘creative’ aspects of architecture - only the tiniest slice of the profession in my view - are what you are best at and want to do, then find the people in practice who will recognise that and help you develop excellence. HMU on twitter @rarchbarch if you want.
excellent long answer, the suggestion to get outside of situations where you feel stuck is so important.
Architecture is a fantastic career – and a terrible one. It can be fiercely competitive; the pay isn’t nearly as good as most people suppose; and in reality it involves a lot more mundane labor than exciting, creative projects. Read More at: https://www.indiacadworks.com/
I know its early in your career but it's never early enough to have a vision for where you want to be in 5 years, professionally and financially.
Want to start your own practice? Work backwards from that. What do you need to know that you can learn on someone else's dime. Absorb more content. Listen to business podcasts while detailing.
Not interested in the technical work at all? Look at other roles that could benefit from your skills, like Business Development, Marketing, Ops... even when making that switch you want to have a clear vision of what you want to learn over a short period of time that will set you apart. This part is actually easy because there is such little innovation within these teams.
Don't adopt the mentality that you need to do what everyone else is doing, like "paying your dues". That is a trap. You are in control. If you wait around for someone else to define your career you'll find yourself still doing what you're doing today, 10 years from now with no sense of ownership.
If you no longer enjoy the industry itself, get out. You don't owe anyone anything to stay. It's your future.
That said the most important investment you can make in yourself is changing your perspective where everything looks like an obstacle to one where everything looks like an opportunity.
Check the career growth summit they're putting together at TealHQ. It's helpful to hear others stories and meet new people outside the bubble of architecture.
If you stick with it long enough, frustration with technical details will be a small part of the job and frustration with plans reviewers with high school educations and poor reading and writing skills that can't read plans and don't know anything about design and construction delay a project for months based solely on their own ineptitude and there's nothing you can do about it but suffer through it and do the best you can to try to save face with your client that you with a masters education, a professional license, and many years of experience is no match for the checklist people with limited brain matter that insist something must be done a certain way with 0 understanding of what they are proposing and 0 authority to design anything. And frustration with contracts - every project where about 3/4 of the way through you have to revisit what the fuck you agreed to do anyways for clients who alternatively praise you and disrespect you sometimes on a cycle of multiple times a day and demand PERFECTION and for you to work 12 hour days for substitute teacher wages to make all their dreams come true and make them a place that they can impress their friends with and tell everyone "they designed it" and all the while feel the need to tell you there are no technical parts to designing a building because they do it in about 5 minutes on TV, so you must be taking advantage of them so they make threats that they are going to call their lawyers cause they don't understand why it can't be easier and you don't even build anything and you don't even have a truck or a hammer so ho hard can it be "building" as an architect all the while telling you those babysitter wages they are paying are such a drag on their finances because they have a LOT of expenses right now and need money to put towards light fixtures and quartz ya know.
But then there are those moments where you get to do design work on buildings for the Olympics or the new high school in your hometown or the new dorm at your mom's alma mater or the nicest clothing store in town or you find yourself a patient in a hospital you helped design... oh wait, that last one wasn't a good experience but you know.
This is my life.
thanks bb, I feel heard
98% of architects never do your last paragraph and get stuck in the first, better to get paid elsewhere.
That's right. If you are designing Carl's Jrs (the burger place), you might think twice .
I won't repeat what tintt wrote, because this is exactly how I feel. I do side projects, that is the thing that I find sustaining, and is the thing that is making me be a better architect. I'd do that full-time, but I don't want to chase work. I have a steady, and lovely client, and if I get work from that association, I'm very picky. I'm also working toward other things; devdesbuild, this will be the jump.
Guess I'm in the 2% then. That can't be right.
I wanted to be an architect since high school (graduated in 2000), but I settled with just being a drafter because I enjoyed the work, most of the time, without the added responsibility of dealing with clients and contractors.
I've just recently decided to pursue my license and will be licensed by the end of the year. I can tell you that work experience and the "drudgery" will certainly help you out in the long run, and it does get easier, especially when you get to see the building put together.
I work with a couple designers that have little to no clue how a building gets detailed and put together, and it's frustrating to deal with their designs sometimes because they just don't work, and that causes changes and sometimes unhappy clients because they don't get the pretty picture sold to them in prelim design.
it's like laundry to life.
i love living and love life, but only a functioning one. I hate doing laundry or vacuuming floor. you can pay someone to do that for you, or buy a Roomba, but at the end of the day you need to take care of them in a way so that you life can function.
I think part of this is how misleading education all over the world is, more or less.
Another thing someone told me a year ago when I going through similar thing (my trigger point is doing door schedule manually): It's, just, a, job..it's not your 100% life, nor your personality. If you enjoy doing concept and creative work, tons of architects i know do their side hustle, illustrator, furniture, competition, conceptual /theoretical work.
"I’m just wondering, are there any creative-type architects out there who actually enjoy their jobs and think it’s worth it? "
Go work for a builder. You get great experience and there are so many opportunities for creative thinking. Builders are dying for someone to make their work attractive as long as you keep that conceptual stuff to your self. No one will ever read it, but you'll get great satisfaction if you make your designs, efficient, economical, and elegant. Don't let the rat race get you down. Think outside the box and be open minded as to where opportunities can be found. Good luck!
Switch to UX/UI and you'll soon be making 6 figures, but you'll also be working on trivial apps with a tiny scope of application just so you can sell it to somebody who will use it for exploitative marketing on the internet. Architects are the bitch of the rich. UX/UI perpetuates a culture of false needs. And you'll always be somebody's ____.
OK Ryan.
Somebody is an optimist.
I am an unlicensed architect. I never was interested on getting my license. I was like you a few years ago, I hated being an architect, until I started working for a General contractor and spending time on the field, my life changed, I make double the money an architect makes and my job is soooooo challenging and dynamic. Workings for a GC has changed it all! I have to remark that I work in construction since I was 11 years old, I was a helper, a mason, I poured concrete, did stucco, roofing, Always working on the field making money to pay the Architectural School until I got my degree and started working as a designer, the good thing was that I knew how to build stuff and I used to think in 30 different dimensions when I used to be a designer, I would say i was 1 of a kind, architects normally cant go beyond the screen and autocad, I used to go above and beyond because of my experience building stuff and my experience on the field. Today I am the one that review the drawings we get from the architects, I am the one that hunt for mistakes on the drawings and I enjoy correcting other architects, and I am talking about correcting huge mistakes that if nobody sees we as a GC can loose our a@@.
Not to be a dick but you're not an unlicensed architect. You should know that.
you're either unlicensed or an architect...not that it matters.
as a non-stamp-collecting stamp-collector, let me tell you how ya'll should be collecting stamps.
Doesn't thinking in "30 diffferent dimensions" count for anything?
if i drive in michigan with my illinois license am i an unlicensed driver? can you be considered a driver even if unlicensed?
Donald Rumsfeld was the unlicensed architect of the Iraq War.
i can neither confirm nor deny that i am an unlicensed architect.
You can tell us square. We won't judge.
Semantics no longer. I pointed out the the author of this post called themselves an Architect without being one & received the worlds supply of downvotes. I see we have moved into the phase of this thread where we can point that out again, I shall rejoice.
I recently graduated and decided not to go to graduate school for the time being. I grew up in a custom furniture shop, helped my dad with renovations, and always had a liking for architecture ever since I was 10. Most people in this forum seem to think that we young, aspiring architects don't want to learn or have to deal with the technical stuff, however, I find the detailing and technical side of architecture to be the most exciting aspect of a design. My issue with the profession has been the corporate, cubicle lifestyle that comes with pursuing architecture. I am at the point now where I'd much rather be on-site doing the hard, back-breaking work instead of sitting in front of a computer every day. Then again this may just be the situation I am in now, but it's hard to tell if all firms or practices are this way or not.
OK, the OP is not an "unlicensed architect". What do you call the unlicensed worker-bees in your own architectural firms that hold degrees in architecture from reputable universities and spend their days designing buildings?
Intern Architect, Designer, Architectural Associate?
According to the purists on here you could not use the term 'architectural associate' or 'intern architect'. I think 'emerging professional'- as if the employee is some kind of grasshopper larvae in late-stage development is as far as they would go.
'Designer' sounds fine, but 'architectural designer' is a no-no.
"Architecture degree holder from Notre Dame University, 2007' would work, but that's a little wordy.
I call the unlicensed worker-bee in my firm the principal.
In practice I use the term "designer" or sometimes "residential designer" but I'm often confused with interior designers, graphic designers or others who also use the term "designer."
There's no reason I shouldn't be able to use the term "architectural designer" other than architects can't prove their value over unlicensed designers so they have to commandeer the word architect to make themselves feel important. I get it--if I had spent all of that time and money to earn a title that is not valued in the marketplace, I'd be jealous too.
Our office bills them out as Production Staff.
We've got 4 tiers of billables for design professionals:
1.Principal
2. Project Manager
3. Project Architect
4. Production Staff
Some people try to come up with a fancy title for themselves to feel better on their LinkedIn profile, but those are the four tiers it boils down to. Pretty simple.
Volunteer - using the term architectural in the title of non licensed people was made legal a few years ago. Even AIA changed their stance on the words use.
RJ87 - We have all of those but also have architect in-between PA and production staff. We also have Architectural Intern. All titles except for principal have 1, 2, or 3 behind the name. That's only for internal use though to denote experience so it's not part of our 'title'.
Yeah we're only about 17 people so there's not much use for the I, II, III experience notations but I know those are pretty popular in larger firms. What's the difference between an architect & a project architect to y'all? For us a PA is the same day to day as Production Staff, it's just that when you get licensed you move from hourly to salary & the pay takes a jump up.
My assumption is that you're going to say PA's run projects & are supervised by a PM.
Edit: I should also note that we have some billing rates for the design department folks too, but that's a different thing.
We're only a ten person firm. The 1,2,3 is just for accounting purposes.
I gotcha, I enjoy this size of firm. Anywhere from 10-20 is a sweet spot for me I think.
But you can see why I don't put much stock into the whole "what do we call them" debate. We only have 1 title that actually uses the term Architect within the office. Now outside of the office, I just introduce myself as an architect because it's easier than explaining it otherwise (I bounce back & forth as a PM for smaller projects & a PA for larger ones). It's just cleaner than saying "I'm a _____ at an architectural firm".
I get why people look for a more elegant answer than saying they're production staff at an architectural firm, but it's still the answer.
Chad, it depends on your jurisdiction whether using "architectural" or some derivation of "architect" in the title is legal or not. AIA can soften their stance all they want, but they don't make the laws. Your state of Colorado, does indeed have a softer stance than other jurisdictions on this, but it is limited to unlicensed people working under the supervision of an architect as they pursue licensure. Other jurisdictions are not so lenient.
EA - Correct. I wasn't referring to anyone not working under an architect. Thanks for bringing that up - I totally forgot to mention that part!
RJ87 - You're correct about PA and PM roles. PA's run projects and the PM's oversee things. The PA's in our office also have the added responsibilities of scheduling, and QC'ing drawings.
Being in a smaller sized firm we all do a bit of everything though. It's common for PM and PA duties to overlap and change responsibilities.
Everyone in our firm has their strengths and we all complement each others abilities to try to work as a team.
How the terms "PA" and "PM" are used varies wildly from firm to firm, at least in the firms I've worked for.
The definition of an Architect has changed. Now it's called, a puppet on a string. Why would anyone want to become an architect when the building technologies are 100 years behind in the past. Anything worth building will not be recognized by the owner since they are not professionals. Gloria Steinem: “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.”
There two type of folks on this forum the wanker who will tell you to graft it out for the next 20 years and see where it gets you cause that's what they did.
The wanker who will tell you to jump ship cause they wanted to or want to.
As much as anyone of these wankers will tell you anything about the profession at the end of the day do you actually want to continue? If not then maybe it is time to jump ship, if in someway you want to continue maybe try a different studio which specialises in something completely different than where you are. I have friends who hated the traditional architecture firms who work on officer blocks or housing and have found employment in events and staging, firms that specialise in sustainability, cycling infrastructure in various European cities, public furniture and various other niches.
I hope you find what you want for your future.
I don't think the issue is so much about architecture, I do love architecture, and I do enjoy designing absolutely anything on a building, on any project, it's a great hobby as per #geezertect's point below. The issue is that architect can't be a job for those who also want to buy their home, raise kids, put money to the side, have a normal life. And actually one can't say I haven't tried, having worked for about twenty different practices, large and small, succesful and more humble, and in four different countries. I hear the board claiming that they aim to protect architecture, it means that they just put building before people, they don't protect architects, they dont even protect the title.
With the way inflation is headed and how stagnant Arch salaries remain as the fee is cut more and more, sticking it out seems less and less attractive whether you love architecture or not. Especially if it's a question of affording the explosive rise of the rent of the roof over your head.
at least the value of all that debt will decrease too!
I’m not sure what you hate more particularly about the job, but a few things that you are surely going to learn hating over the years are the shitty income that you make out of it, the very long hours, the high competition, an ever changing legislation, an ever increasing liability, a permanent insecurity, ungrateful clients, and if everything goes to plan maybe a lovely picture of your best work in a magazine for sole reward. I recommend anyone who is young enough to forget about this profession and choose a better way to live.
It's a great hobby, but a shitty profession for all the reasons cited above.
The definition of an Architect has changed. Now it's called a puppet on a string. Why would anyone want to become an architect when the building technologies are 100 years behind in the past. Anything worth building will not be recognized by the owner since they are not professionals.
The owner is not going to pay extra for something they don't understand or know about. Therefore, becoming an architect today doesn't mean much, and it is an outdated profession with a dead end outcome. Also, it for sure doesn't pay much. So, what's the point, there's no real challenges, and rewards with it.
An Architect can only do what the owner tells them and that's all. In the end it should not be apart of the educational system since this profession is that bad, and most (no job stability) cannot even make a living at it. Computer Technology, & Healthcare, is the way of the future.
Your "experience" is certainly not main stream and it appears your account here only exists to repeat the same sad song... over and over. Perhaps it's not the profession, maybe it's just you've had bad luck or have a different expectation (or are just bad... who knows?).
I actually laughed at that when I went back up and read his username.
Gloria Steinem: “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.”
If most Architects would only try to build a building with his own two hands he would fail. An Architect is there to design for the builders, and the owner is the one with all the creativity, and if he doesn't like what he's getting the architect is finished. These days, an Architect is only a paper pusher, with the hope of being creative.
If most Architects would only try to build a building with his own two
hands the would fail. An Architect is there to design for the builders,
and the owner is the one with all the creativity, and if he doesn't like
what he's getting the architect is finished. These days, an Architect
is only a paper pusher, with the hope of being creative.
Speak for yourself. I can do finished carpentry, concrete, lay brick, frame wood studs, and weld.
My clients hire me for my creativity and understanding of bundling science and construction. Clients may have ideas regarding what they want but I help them make those ideas a reality.
Also - I work for the client, not the contractor. Unless I'm doing design build- which I avoid except for a few trusted contractors.
The definition of an Architect has changed. Now it's called, a puppet on
a string. Why would anyone want to become an architect when the
building technologies are 100 years behind in the past. Anything worth
building will not be recognized by the owner since they are not
professionals.
The owner is not going to pay extra for
something they don't understand or know about. Therefore, becoming an
architect today doesn't mean much, and it is an outdated profession with
a dead end outcome. Also, it for sure doesn't pay much. So, what's
the point, there's no real challenges, and rewards with it.
An
Architect can only do what the owner tells them and that's all. In the
end it should not be apart of the educational system since this
profession is that bad, and most (no job stability) cannot even make a
living at it. Computer Technology, & Healthcare, is the way of the
future.
My career and experience differs quite a bit from yours.
It could be because you're not an architect and have been treated poorly? Is that why you're so bitter?
Chad, this greg fellow only exists here to repeat the same sad song. Looks like they can't get over that perhaps it's not us, maybe it's him.
there are lots of shit jobs in healthcare fwiw. i'd rather be an architect than a home health aide or even a nurse.
Many people here (not me) would point out that you can't hate being an architect because to their twisted, desiccated brains you are not one since you don't have a license.
That said, I would jump through the remaining hoops to get your license and do the annual qualifications for a few years in case you have a change of heart.
Edit: Never mind, it's not worth debating.
@heffany227 I was exactly where you were 10 years ago. There is no longer one single way to practice in the profession. Finding an alternative path kept me in the field I love, but DOING what I love. Sharing my article that was just released this week on my story and alternative careers. If you are on the eclipse of a career, at an uncertain moment, or taking your first steps into the profession, see the tips and resources at the end ;) (Page 16-17). I'd be happy to talk on LinkedIn if you'd like to talk more. https://issuu.com/youngarchite...
Architecture is awesome .... having clients is the shitty part!
I can do you one better.. having clients who's looking to sue you at the end of the project..
Haha, yes I have had that too!
Our office has been sued and given new projects by the same client on the same day. For some, it's just business.
I was in Architecture about 12 years then became a Project Manager Now, I am currently working as a PM in EAC team where I manage 12-14 disciplines based on projects and up to 30 people in a team... Working as a PM/DM takes different skills sets and whole another set of problems (clients, budget, scope, your own people, profit margin), but you also get a good overview of a building project. Having architectural background and MEP coordination experience helped me to understand projects lot better than my peers. If you get into Project Management field, then you can go into different sectors and become a PM on the client sides too.. I can potentially get a job at tech, biotech, defense, transportation industries and run their capital projects. As someone else said, there is lot of money in tech and biotech. If you choose to work at an EAC firms like me, then you can also go back to architecture when you want.. I sometimes do code analysis and perform peer reviews for my fellow architects. Because of my billing rate, I don't use CAD/BIM anymore, but I can still kick anyone's butt and troubleshoot Revit issues for my colleagues :). I guess one downside may be that you don't have much of creative inputs and you are constantly in meetings with other folks. Upsides, I think, are better pay, work schedules, and more mobility/opportunity. I don't remember last time I worked overtime as a PM (though you have to watch everyone's manhours).
What is an “EAC team?”
Engineering architecture construction? Eastern Arizona college? Environmental analysis and communications? East African community?
just wait until you open a door on something you designed and your heart skips a beat at how nice it is — all the pain of process washes away in an instant — then make the decision; but, of course, you will be hooked —after sixty-three years in my own practice, three thousand projects with one thousand actually built, it never gets old — and the learning process never ends — i can fly out of EWR in any direction and see patterns on the ground i created — not all wonderful, but everyone with some special story — and now, with my ancient wisdom, i am redesigning the entire planet; because i can (and as a gift to my grandchildren and their kids) — but i will still drop everything to remodel your kitchen!
Hi, just curious where the OP ended up in all of this. Did you change jobs? Change careers?
Hi cynnamon, about a year after I wrote this post, I did end up changing jobs, started working at a different architecture firm in my city. I kept going on and off trying to study for other career paths (coding, UX design, web design), and I explored doing a coding bootcamp or possibly a masters in a different field. Went to therapy for a bit to help me process these emotions and all this confusion about a big potential life change, which I strongly recommend to anyone who is financially able to and in a similar situation. I really like my new job a lot more - it’s a bigger company which helps to take care of some of the issues I had at my old job, the people are a lot nicer and kinder, the type of work allows me to work with kinder clients. I’ve being working on my AREs. I will say I am finding myself at that one year itch, wondering once again if this career path is right for me or not. I would like to keep my options open as I move forward through life - I’m realizing as someone who changes my mind often I need to just expect I’ll want a job (or maybe even career) change every few years to experience something new and different. Overall things are much better for me now!
...
No the architectural profession is not worth it. NCARB, AIA, ARE, NAAB all mislead young people going into the profession. The architectural graduates are growing at an 8 percent yearly rate, while the construction industry grows at a 2 percent rate. Architects serve the upper end of the construction market, not the lower to middle end because graduates lack a background in real estate, construction, or engineering - critical ingredients for success to penetrate that market sector. Bottom lime. There are more architects in the USA than in China. There is a 30 percent oversupply of architects to jobs ...thus low wages, lousy benefits, no advancement, and no job security. If you are young go for a career change. You cannot support a family in this profession.Strongly suggest using your education to go into corporate facilities. eg US Milcon, Walmart Store Planning, Apple Retail Services etc.
Let me guess - you couldn't find a position as an architect.
On a side note - the advice you give is horrible. Working in corporate facility type jobs (not a career) are low paying, unstable, and have horrible long term prospects.
In addition - the growth rate for architectural graduates is 5% compared to the last six years where the growth rate was nearly zero. New graduates is not keeping up with the demand that is needed for new architects.
Chad, I think things are a bit harder for fresh grads these days than some of us who have been in the business 10-15 years...
With the stagnant salaries and high inflation, I do not think it is worthwhile for a young grad to go into a traditional architecture role. Sure, there are many job openings these days, but the pay-scale and rate of pay growth is really not commensurate with on-ground realities, at least in big cities.
Also, I do not think that corporate facility planning roles are dead-end, they do offer a much better life-work ratio and steady paycheck.
I don't think salaries are stagnant for new grads - they are being paid more now than three years ago. As for pay rate and growth with 'on-ground realities in big cities' I assume you mean the amount of work required isn't commensurate with the pay. If that's the case then move to a new firm. You don't have to work in a big city where there are large amount of new grads trying to work in the same 2-3 huge firms.
Finally, your impression of corporate facility planning roles are not correct. I know of plenty of such jobs (not careers) that pay poorly, have bad hours, no work life balance, and have poor job security.
As I've said many times on this site it's all about the firm you work with (NOT FOR).
FWIW I know plenty of people who work in corporate facility positions that are paid out the ass with 5-10 years experience. I don't have a foot in this argument however. I was recruited by a few tech companies that were looking for facility architects (Tesla, Rivian) that paid upwards of 120k-150k for 5-7 years experience but I was not willing to move to the middle of nowhere. Those positions are MUCH more volatile of course and when times get hard those people are the first to get cut.
The corporate facility positions I was referring to where the store planners that marksoroko mentioned. Those type of positions don't pay well, ect. Being a facility architect - that's a different story and is not the same as a facility planner.
"There are more architects in the USA than in China" Then guess who's doing most of the architecture in China.
Scandinavians?
No, no, it's the French!
What about Icelanders?
I give up, who is it JCL-1? ;)
It’s never the French, or it’s always. J’oublie. Sacrament.
Chad, I think your info/outlook may be very regional, if I had to hazard a guess. I appreciate you being a cheer leader for this profession, but facts are facts.
For example, a recent grad in LA used to make around 35k in 2003, and they probably make around 50k now, in 2023 - so a growth of 40%. At the same time inflation has grown to around 56% in LA. Not to mention a much more saturated market (architects dont die off lol).
So, not sure if financially it is a prudent decision for a youngin to stay in architecture.
sameolddoctor - no one's pay has kept up with inflation since the mid 90's. This isn't limited to architecture. As for the saturated market - that's a regional thing. Overall the amount of fresh grands and architects has been going DOWN since 2008.
Wrong, the pay for tech has only gone up since the mid 90s, and fresh law grads get paid at least a 100% more than what they were paid 20 years ago. I really understand the passion for the profession, but to say it is a sustainable business in today's times is just not true. As i said before, people like myself with 15-20 years of experience have it slightly easier than fresh grads.
You site tech and law as two of thousands of careers that make more than they where 20 years ago. The same applies for architecture. Here are some actual numbers according the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Look it up.
Fresh law grads make 5% more than they did in 1995 when adjusted for inflation.
Fresh tech grads make 15% more than they did in 1995 when adjusted for inflation.
The average fresh architectural grad makes 10% more than they did in 1995 when adjusted for inflation.
I'm not saying that architectects shouldn't be paid more. I'm saying that with the exception of rare few most people's pay hasn't kept up with inflation. It's not just architecture.
Chad, I just spend some time on the BLS website and I can't find the data you share--any chance you could point me in the right direction?
The statistics you share note "when adjusted for inflation" seems to contradict your stated viewpoint. I wonder how the comparison to inflation compares to the change in the consumer price index--i.e., the actual cost of living. I know that the apartment I rented near Boston in the mid-90s now goes for about three times what it did then, but I'm sure pay has not increased that much.
Simply search the site - that's how I found the pay over the years.
Stating that pay increases are adjusted for inflation doesn't contradict my viewpoint. Figures have to be adjusted for inflation - if not someone in 1995 would make $38k a year and someone in 2023 would make $75k a year showing a nearly 50% increase in wages without taking into account the purchasing power of said pay.
It's important to note that just because pay is going up that doesn't mean that it's keeping up with inflation. That's not what this was about though. Someold said that pay for entry level architects hasn't gone up since the mid 90's. Someold went on to say that every other profession has had their entry level pay go up . That's not true. To be fair almost no one's pay has kept up with inflation since the mid 90's.
2003 - Birmingham AL, $35k, had options in Atlanta for roughly the same, generally not a strong candidate (more in construction) so I know better fresh grads at the firm I was at and friends at others who were at $38-42... I was definitely the low ball. My salary increased by leaps and bounds each year though, as I got more utilized in CA quickly and generally fell into my niche.
At our firm now, we can't get anyone in the door for less than $70k. Atlanta GA. No fresh grad is hitting $80 though, so tightish range. Let's say $5k difference across the band. However, the difference between Arch 1-3 is very minimal, so way less incentive and way more frustration to work through the lowest rungs of their career.
so 20 years, 2003-2023, roughly 100% increase. (anecdotal obviously)
bls.gov CPI inflation calculator, 35k in May 2003 is now 58k in May of 2023... so stands to say fresh grads now are killing it compared to myself. I'll also add the mentality has definitely changed. I was willing to try everything and do anything assigned to me and totally interested in learning the ins/outs. I get that most grads won't necessarily become designers (Chad excluded) and therefore have to go through an architectural personality crisis if they're going to stay in the profession. That said I'm still amazed as the resident technical/code/CD/CA back-of-house guru in-office at how many eye rolls or outright refusals I get from younger staff when they get assigned to tasks/roles more in my wheelhouse. I've had quite a few hard conversations along the lines of "no, you didn't draw the short straw, if you had what it takes you'd still be designing. This isn't a death sentence to your design career, but you really need to view these next few months on project X as an opportunity to learn the nuts and bolts of architecture and hopefully that will influence your design and support where you want your career to be."
Interesting thread.
As an employer I can see the 'next generation' carrying the mentality of 'do what makes the most money and takes the least amount of time...dont try to get fulfillment from your job...'
The paradigm today is a job is just a job, A lot of people are punching clocks and wondering why they're still miserable. They dont ask questions, show no initiative, and generally do as little as possible to not get fired, which is quite a little these days.
Thing is--you're only cutting yourself short. You're still at your desk for 8 hours a day. Even if you're working from home and able to pretend to work for 4 hours and do only 4 hours of actual work, those 4 hours add up--you might as well spend them doing something meaningful. If you're drafting trash chutes, study it. Learn how to make an awesome one or even improve the design. If you're feeling pigeon holed, say something. Ask to be given another task that interests you. As an employer I would be fine with that. Theres always way more to be done than can be done, try to pitch in and take some pride in whatever you're doing. Humans need to work, to contribute something. I like to think we're all making the world a better place. If you're not, go work somewhere else.
Ask to be given another task that interests you. As an employer I would be fine with that.
very generous of you, employer!
Please share some more wisdom from your enlightened perspective on the "spoiled" generation. Maybe throw in a few barbs about "welfare queens" while you are at it. You are on a roll.
Larchinect wrote:
"Interesting thread."
It's also informative.
“As an employer I can see the 'next generation' carrying the mentality of 'do what makes the most money and takes the least amount of time...dont try to get fulfillment from your job...' “
I’m 45 years old. I’ve been in this profession for about 20 years. I have not encountered this with the ‘next generation’
Also, what type of firm do you run? How many team members do you have?
“The paradigm today is a job is just a job, A lot of people are punching clocks and wondering why they're still miserable. They don’t ask questions, show no initiative, and generally do as little as possible to not get fired, which is quite a little these days.”
Again, I’ve never encountered this. I have encountered that people are expecting to be paid fairly for the work they do and maintain work / life balance.
"Thing is--you're only cutting yourself short. You're still at your desk for 8 hours a day. Even if you're working from home and able to pretend to work for 4 hours and do only 4 hours of actual work, those 4 hours add up--you might as well spend them doing something meaningful."
That’s a lot to unpack in one run on sentence. Are you trying to say since you’re going to be unhappy for eight hours you might as well be unhappy for 10 or 12? I ask because doing 'meaningful' work won't necessarily make someone happy.
“If you're drafting trash chutes, study it. Learn how to make an awesome one or even improve the design. If you're feeling pigeon holed, say something. Ask to be given another task that interests you. As an employer I would be fine with that. “
First off it’s not a task. It’s part of the design process. Second, would you be willing to actually give the team member a new part of the design process?
“Theres always way more to be done than can be done, try to pitch in and take some pride in whatever you're doing. Humans need to work, to contribute something. “
Taking pride in your work doesn’t mean you need to work more than 40 hours a week.
“I like to think we're all making the world a better place. If you're not, go work somewhere else.”
I agree. If your not happy at the firm you work with then you should move to a different one.
In the last 5 years I dont think ive ever asked any employee to work more than 40 hours.
Oops hit post by accident..wanted to add
Oops hit post by accident..wanted to add
Wanted to add…over the last two years I’ve watched employees regularly come in after 9, go home for an hour in the middle of the day and still leave at 4:45. As an employer, its tough. It took us nearly 6 months to hire our latest person and outmr productivity is the lowest its ever been while work keeps coming over the transom. Im not seeing much passion or drive.
Honestly, this whole comment screams that you don’t understand the “current generation”
Honestly, this whole comment screams that you don’t understand the “current generation”
Larchstein wrote:
“Wanted to add…over the last two years I’ve watched employees regularly come in after 9, go home for an hour in the middle of the day and still leave at 4:45. As an employer, its tough. It took us nearly 6 months to hire our latest person and outmr productivity is the lowest its ever been while work keeps coming over the transom. Im not seeing much passion or drive.”
It might be your firm and its leadership style. I’m not encountering this with our interns. May I ask what type of work your firm does? It could be that your new staff simply isn’t interested?
I also suspect a lot of junior designers are listening to their profs and going to work at corporate firms in popular places. Try going somewhere you're really needed and maybe can even take some more responsibility. The work may not be as glamorous, but I always personally thought it was more exciting to play a bigger, more direct role in making something, even small in a dusty corner of the earth than being a small cog in a big machine so detached from the end product. Put yourself out there, stick your neck out..do something different.
we've got some small consistent $2-5M const cost work that the firm was excited to take on to fill the gaps between large projects and give junior designers more ownership in the design. The idea was that select people would get the opportunity to go from start to finish and own the entire thing. The general take from arch1-3s is no one wants them, they're too small, bland, boring, "not design" and they all want to be on the $300M tower, but oh yeah, they don't want to do the bathrooms for the $300M tower either.
Architectural Schools, Design Magazines, AIA, and others make Design - GOD! There are even dumb slogans like "Design makes a difference." From the client's point of view design is a hygiene factor. More design does not make you a better person than having a flashy car or wearing stylish clothes. What counts in architecture is being able to create a real estate product which the market wants, needs and can afford. Looks are not that important. .AIA has a history of giving design awards to buildings that bankrupt clients (eg. IDS Center) or fail catastrophically (eg. Kemper Arena), buildings which are obsolete in less than a decade etc.
Architecture is not a religion or a messianic cult. Architectural Schools raise little narcissists who want to build their own mega work of art, or ego pyramid-have someone else pay for it-then find fame, immortality and fortune to support a hedonist life. Sorry guys...the world doesn't work that way. To succeed in architecture you need social contacts. These are hard to come by when you work at a desk all day long. Young students need to understand Architectural Offices are not set up like attorney offices where you are a assigned a client.The salesman who brings the job in gets both the money and the design commission. If you can't sell - you will fail. Forget CAD, Revit, Rhino and all the other techy gadgets. A/E offices need to realize there are serious long term health issues from working all day behind a computer. Deep Vein Thrombosis, Retina Degeneration, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, Crippling Arthritis, Varicose Leg Ulcers and others. Is your health worth sacrificing for sawdust? Offices will not pay good wages, provide steady employment, offer good benefits, or decent working conditions unless fundamental professional services and business strategy issues are resolved. Architects need a high volume-low dollar service with mass appeal. Instead they have a high dollar, low volume service with little overall market appeal. Supply does not create its own demand. I urge young architects to abandon the obsolete AIA Business Model and get into a growing industries.
A little (or a lot) cynical, but you're not wrong either. 95% of us have no formal business training at all, and yeah, we went to school to learn to design, not how to get clients. It's to be expected and needs to change to keep up with our changing economy.
I’m be interested to hear what you think a growing industry is. Personally, I left “architecture” after I got all my hours to become licensed. Got into real estate brokerage to learn lead generation and sales (aka how to get business). Real estate is very little in terms of out of pocket expenses and barrier to entry, but has a very high attrition rate due to no
clients = no food on the table.
Continued. I’m now getting back into “architecture” but from the design/build angle. My first project will be a self-developed spec home to show my target clients (small scale developers) I know how to get a project done that looks good, has high margins and gets done on time. Once I sell this spec home I got another one lined up and then I’ll roll these into a sixplex. My services will be customizable spec homes and low rise multi family, doing mainly design, project management (herding subs) and construction administration. To eliminate low time value drafting I’ll be relying on premade plans to avoid reinventing the wheel and one-off detailing. I’ll be releasing my journey on YouTube. Currently still weeding my lots but construction should start mid July. I got into architecture to build stuff, not be glorified desk jockey. I’m fed up with architecture schools purposefully separating us from “mere builders” by focusing completely on design, when at the end of the day all they create are graphic designers that have no clue how a building actually gets put together. Once I’m situated my goal is to teach architects/designers how to build a house from start to finish - not sure how yet.
Do you follow John Anderson? He does a lot of education around cost-effective, thoughtful, small development. Same with Ross Chapin.
In regards to your goal of how to teach architects how to build and house . . . are you not sure how to teach or not sure how to build a house? I belive you mean the former but wanted to make sure.
On a related note it sounds like you've experienced some horrible architectural schools with poor education and attitudes. That's unfortunate.
@wood guy No I haven’t heard of John Anderson. My initial google search points me towards an architect in Chico CA? Is this the same John Anderson? If not, I’d like to see his work.
@wood guy No I haven’t heard of John Anderson. My initial google search points me towards an architect in Chico CA? Is this the same John Anderson? If not, I’d like to see his work.
@chad miller Both. And yes, this stems from my graduate school education. I got my BS in Biology. Graduated in 2009, went to grad school for Landscape Arch, then double mastered with Arch with a certificate in Real Estate. My education was entirely focused on “the big picture.” While I did have classes that focused on detailing and structures, nothing prepared me for having someone come up to me after graduation and asking me to design a house with four walls and a roof (without it falling down, a mud sill is to wipe the mud off your boots right?). The guy I’m partnering with knows all of this but he graduated like 30 years ago when architects were supposed to know basic structural engineering. Education has gone to the dogs and is reinforcing project architects slowly transition into building code compliance consultants (at least commercial architects). I’m considering offering free yearly residential training studio once I get established over the next few years (like 6-8 people at a time) I suppose this will be limited to PNW architects since our rainscreen states and foundation
are different than else where.
... project architects slowly transition into building code compliance consultants... j'accuse! That hit home
@mission critical, this is John, a small-scale developer and designer in the SE US:
https://www.cnu.org/publicsquare/author/r-john-anderson,
https://www.rjohnthebad.com/,
https://www.facebook.com/rjohn.anderson.
mission_critical - it sounds like you got taken advantage of by the school(s) and spread yourself too thin. I'm sorry to hear this.
Nearly every good program I know of (including the one I attended) was a minimum of five years of intensive architectural related classes (including studio design) that provided grads with a technical understanding of how to design, detail, and build projects. Obviously this was a bare minimum of understanding and you still needed work experience to become better. Basically upon graduation you could be given a few sketches for a simple project (say a wood framed home) from your boss and create decent DD level drawings.
Do the non-sexual equivalent cucking, but for architecture. "archicuckture"
This discussion is never ending, and rightly so. It's hard to find anyone who truly likes the field. Lots of comments, but no solution.
I like the field about 60% of the time. The solution is simple: If you don't like the field you're in move to a different field.
I truly like this field. I get to work on many different types of projects where I have to make creative decisions while solving an seemingly indefinite list of complicated problems. I get to point to many buildings in my city and proudly claim: "yeah bitch, I did that." The solution is find a work environment that suits your ambitions/needs and not simply cry foul when the world does not instantly bend to your needs.
I love my job as well. Been as the same place of employment for almost 16 years. Its defiantly all the reasons that Non S says above. Plus I like my co-workers, we have all been together for a very long time. I work in a small city, and so many building here have ties to my firm, there is a pride in quality work that we do.