Boss wants to incoporate her business and take me on as a partner. She wants to change the name of the business to also have my last name in it. I don't feel very comfortable with that idea because the design work that we do isn't exactly to my taste and I don't want my name being associated with them. (I do try very hard to push the design to be more modern...) I plan to work with her for a while but I want to eventually start my own company, which she is aware of. So.. should my name be in there or no? Would I be missing out big time for refusing to have my name in there? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!
Miles Jaffe
Apr 27, 21 12:06 am
.
midlander
Apr 27, 21 12:37 am
why partner with someone whose vision you don't share? why would she want you to partner knowing you don't like the work and hope to leave? this situation doesn't seem to make sense.
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 1:22 am
good points. She pays well, and will be even better as a partner. I try to be as diplomatic as possible when I disagree with certain design decisions so I don't think she gets the hint. I have expressed my desire to start my own firm but she just kind of brushes it off.
midlander
Apr 27, 21 10:08 am
in that case i think you need to have a much bigger discussion with her - probably a few meetings over the next month - to discuss what your role would be and what she expects from you as partner. be clear in stating the direction you'd like to take the work, and see how open she is to letting you operate with autonomy on your projects. it's possible she'll rescind the offer after an open discussion, but that's fine - much better than getting into an unsatisfactory partnership.
midlander
Apr 27, 21 10:09 am
what you describe is actually a very poor communication system which will cause problems in the future if you can't develop a more open approach to discussing disagreements.
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 2:31 pm
Totally agree. I have to have a more in-depth and open discussion with her. Thanks for the comments!
citizen
Apr 27, 21 1:06 am
Go with your gut here.
But I'm just curious: what/how much is she offering you? Presumably you'd be assuming half liability as part of this arrangement.
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 1:22 am
Yes, I should, thank you.
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 1:32 am
oops sorry I'm not used to this. She's offering quarter of the profit on top of the usual salary paid out as a bonus at the end of the year. Liability is certainly something
I need to consider so thanks for the heads up!
Bench
Apr 27, 21 7:49 am
Wouldn't you also need to provide some sort of buy-in to the firm if coming on as a non-founding partner? Seems like if you were planning to start your own firm down the line that would just add extra headache for extracting yourself...
thisisnotmyname
Apr 27, 21 9:25 am
It sounds like the OP is being offered what is called a "non-equity partnership". The OP will have their name on the door and participate at a high level, but the firm owner will continue to own 100% of the business. This arrangement would give the OP the ability to make a clean exit in the future. They would just have to make sure that their name comes off the business whenever they leave the firm.
x-jla
Apr 27, 21 7:46 pm
Taking risk without substantial reward is always a bad deal.
bowling_ball
Apr 27, 21 9:30 am
I'm always blown away at questions like these. If you have to ask something so basic, it tells me you have nowhere near enough experience to take this on, and you clearly shouldn't.
If you're being asked to put your name on the door, AND assume liability, then you need an ownership stake. This could be a great (or disastrous) deal but only you can say for sure, but it sounds like you don't know the actual details, nor even really what to assess here. Be careful.
natematt
Apr 27, 21 11:32 am
If you're name is on the door and you still have a boss...
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 2:37 pm
I certainly don't have a lot of experience, especially when it comes to dealing with the business side of things. I'll be doing a lot more of my own research to really understand what I'm getting into...
bowling_ball
Apr 27, 21 8:21 pm
Trust me when I say this, because I just became partner last year, but you should already know those details because you should have already been managing some portion of the firm. The exception would be if you're coming from an outside firm to buy in, but that's not the case here. And I'm not saying you should know every aspect, but it seems like you're going in very blind.
thisisnotmyname
Apr 27, 21 10:43 am
The design thing may not be wholly your boss's fault. Would the aesthetic tastes (and probably the budgets) of your firm's clientele permit you to change the firm's design work to what you want it to be? I would investigate that as part of your decision making process.
Everyday Architect
Apr 27, 21 11:03 am
I'm trying to understand this from the perspective of your employer ... what are they getting out of this arrangement? Is your name in the company name that important? Is your last name the same as a famous architect? Are you a well-known name in the community and with your potential clients?
Or, do they see the writing on the wall and are trying to get you to stick around instead of venturing out on your own and becoming their competitor, and this is the only thing they can offer you to entice you to stay?
Seems fishy to me to have your name on the door if you're not getting ownership stake, though I don't think you've addressed that question. You've indicated a quarter of the profit ... is that to imply a 25% ownership stake?
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 2:40 pm
Your guess is as good as mine when it comes to why she wants my name in the business name. It's most likely that she wants it to be difficult for me to move on as you've mentioned.
Everyday Architect
Apr 27, 21 4:33 pm
If you're unsure of the value you bring to the business, or the value your potential business partner sees in you ... that's probably something you should figure out sooner rather than later. Either way, you're obviously not aware of the whole picture which seems like a really fundamental part of becoming a partner in a business.
mightyaa
Apr 27, 21 1:58 pm
Let me see if I'm getting this right. You want to eventually start your own firm. You have been presented with an opportunity to become a partner in a established firm with a established client base. Additionally, the level of commitment includes renaming the firm to include you specifically which is not something you do lightly because its sort of permanent and legal thing; Many corporate papers require that if your name is on the door, you must be in the firm. So when names leave, you have to redo the corp. There are lots of expenses with that.
As a partner, I assume you will have a say in the direction of the work as well as more say in the design. Do you know how hard it is to build a firm from scratch and find those client types you really want? FYI, your best clients don't hire firms without a track record, so if you start a firm, it is highly unlikely you'll just start off doing the kinds of projects you want. Additionally, you don't get paid marketing/networking, so you better have a income stream while seeking out work in those markets you want to pursue. You have expenses, so you better have billable jobs to pay those invoices. Essentially what I'm saying is becoming a partner in a established firm with ANY regular client stream of work is a billion times easier than starting off from scratch. Once you have a voice, you can steer the ship and start bringing in the work you want to do WHILE getting a paycheck because you have those other clients.
I don't see a huge downside unless the firm is bleeding and just needs your money to pay off debts. Even then, might not be a bad deal. My Dad bought a FAIA high design firm in Chapter 11 bankruptcy essentially for their portfolio and brand recognition to expand into other markets. See above; it is a lot easier to build off something established than build from scratch.
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 2:45 pm
Thank you for your grounded perspective. I completely understand that it's a lofty goal and the most logical thing would be to just stay here for the rest of my life and make easy money. The thing is, the firm has a very specific niche that doesn't interest me much. Not to mention, don't we all aspire to start a firm of our own? :P
Wood Guy
Apr 27, 21 3:02 pm
fobmasta, I was in a somewhat similar position several years ago, poised to become partner at a design/build firm. I ended up leaving the firm to focus on what I now specialize in. It has not been an easy road; I often wonder how things might have gone if I had stayed. I would definitely be farther ahead financially and would have had a lot more free time than I've had since I went on my own 6 years ago. Is there any chance that your firm's specialty could change, or that your interest could be added? How much of your desire to hang out your shingle is ego-driven?
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 3:51 pm
99% ego driven. And with increasing family obligations, money and time are going to be very precious (kids in the future, aging parents in another country). Everything points to staying with my current company as the best decision and you know what, I'll probably be happy if I do (except for the occasional "what ifs"). Are you happy though? Are you happy that you've started your own firm and would you do it again?
Wood Guy
Apr 27, 21 4:13 pm
My differences with other senior management and our clients was a pretty deep philosophical divide--I do "green" design, while they do fancy coastal homes and some historical restoration work, without regard to the environment, and I couldn't see that ever changing. Plus my wife and I wanted to move to where we are now, which would be over an hour commute each way. But if we weren't moving, and I wasn't as committed to environmental responsibility and occupant health, if I could do it over again I likely would have stayed. I enjoy aspects of having my own business, including bragging rights, but it's hard to wear all of the hats, and some of the hats that don't fit me well are hard to hire for.
fobmasta
Apr 27, 21 5:00 pm
Way to go. It's awesome that you made the move because of something you truly believe in. Maybe that's what I need...
Everyday Architect
Apr 27, 21 4:51 pm
Recapping here:
Employer wants to take on OP as a partner, but OP doesn't really know why. Only reason is to add OP's name to the company but no reasoning as to why that is important to employer.
OP doesn't share the vision of the firm, doesn't like the specific niche the firm occupies, and doesn't approve of the design direction of the firm.
OP doesn't know if they will have ownership stake in firm or not.
OP doesn't know if they need to buy into firm or not.
OP doesn't have much experience (checks out looking at comment history: accepted to M.Arch program at UBC in 2013 puts them on track for graduation in 2016 if you assume a 3-year degree).
OP doesn't understand the business side of the firm.
OP doesn't know why the employer wants to make them partner.
OP doesn't have any loyalty to the firm and has told the employer they want to go out on their own someday which is 99% due to OP's ego and being able to say they created their own firm.
Conclusions:
OP is getting taken advantage of and doesn't realize it.
OP is trolling us.
Non Sequitur
Apr 27, 21 5:06 pm
Wait UBC you say?... is this potentially a Canukistan office? If so... the plot thickens.
Alternative conclusion, the firm owner is looking to off-load work/responsibilities for a small salary increase with the end goal of selling the firm when they retire:
"Hey, since you're making X$ millions while working remotely from your yacht, surely you've saved most of that right? Well, how about you give it all back to me + more and you can take the whole office and I get the fuck out of dodge?"
Everyday Architect
Apr 27, 21 6:01 pm
According to the post history it seems like this train wreck is on your side of the border. Nothing posted between 2013 and today so maybe the OP isn't completely incompetent if they were able to make it through grad school and the ExAC without asking for homework help or study materials here.
whistler
Apr 27, 21 8:34 pm
Maybe time to look up the term "shotgun clause"! Tough to sell a sole proprietorship, therefore sell half or more of the firm to others and make some bank. Planning in small firms for secession is a challenge and only a few limited moves one can make when trying to sell your corporate assets...at best it's successful firm with lots of repeat corporate / government clients. At worst it's old computers and office furniture. Somewhere in between is the value of the principle's network ( the "Blackbox", what they refer to as "good will" )
fobmasta
Apr 28, 21 12:42 am
Hey Everyday Architect, will you leave my personal info alone? It's none of your business.
Thank you.
Non Sequitur
Apr 28, 21 12:45 am
It's not personal when you make it public info bud. Besides, nothing can really be established just from your grad school questions.
x-jla
Apr 27, 21 7:57 pm
Make a deal that suits your needs and hers. Rather than a typical partnership, maybe open your own firm and form a joint venture with hers, where you can informally work together or apart as needed. ABC / XYZ collaborative or whatever. Work that comes through her will be split 40-60 or something...and vica versa. Let her know that you enjoy working with her but want to expand/focus on a different type of work. I actually did just that a few years ago with a larger design/build company, and it’s been working great. I have resources that they benefit from and they have resources that I benefit from. Each company is 100% independent, but we often collaborate and refer work back and forth. Clients like this too. Just be creative.
x-jla
Apr 27, 21 7:58 pm
Also, gives you a safety cushion while you learn to get work.
fobmasta
Apr 28, 21 12:46 am
That's actually a really smart way to go about it. Hadn't thought of that. What is something you can offer to the company? I'm assuming it's not just man-power but some type of expertise?
Anyway I'll look into it, thanks!
Wood Guy
Apr 28, 21 9:25 am
That is a good idea. Maybe she wants to focus on sales and conceptual design and you could manage employees who do DD/CD/CA work, while also producing the kinds of projects you want to do. You can each specialize in your area of interest and you manage the workforce.
Boss wants to incoporate her business and take me on as a partner. She wants to change the name of the business to also have my last name in it. I don't feel very comfortable with that idea because the design work that we do isn't exactly to my taste and I don't want my name being associated with them. (I do try very hard to push the design to be more modern...) I plan to work with her for a while but I want to eventually start my own company, which she is aware of. So.. should my name be in there or no? Would I be missing out big time for refusing to have my name in there? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!
.
why partner with someone whose vision you don't share? why would she want you to partner knowing you don't like the work and hope to leave? this situation doesn't seem to make sense.
good points. She pays well, and will be even better as a partner. I try to be as diplomatic as possible when I disagree with certain design decisions so I don't think she gets the hint. I have expressed my desire to start my own firm but she just kind of brushes it off.
in that case i think you need to have a much bigger discussion with her - probably a few meetings over the next month - to discuss what your role would be and what she expects from you as partner. be clear in stating the direction you'd like to take the work, and see how open she is to letting you operate with autonomy on your projects. it's possible she'll rescind the offer after an open discussion, but that's fine - much better than getting into an unsatisfactory partnership.
what you describe is actually a very poor communication system which will cause problems in the future if you can't develop a more open approach to discussing disagreements.
Totally agree. I have to have a more in-depth and open discussion with her. Thanks for the comments!
Go with your gut here.
But I'm just curious: what/how much is she offering you? Presumably you'd be assuming half liability as part of this arrangement.
Yes, I should, thank you.
oops sorry I'm not used to this. She's offering quarter of the profit on top of the usual salary paid out as a bonus at the end of the year. Liability is certainly something I need to consider so thanks for the heads up!
Wouldn't you also need to provide some sort of buy-in to the firm if coming on as a non-founding partner? Seems like if you were planning to start your own firm down the line that would just add extra headache for extracting yourself...
It sounds like the OP is being offered what is called a "non-equity partnership". The OP will have their name on the door and participate at a high level, but the firm owner will continue to own 100% of the business. This arrangement would give the OP the ability to make a clean exit in the future. They would just have to make sure that their name comes off the business whenever they leave the firm.
Taking risk without substantial reward is always a bad deal.
I'm always blown away at questions like these. If you have to ask something so basic, it tells me you have nowhere near enough experience to take this on, and you clearly shouldn't.
If you're being asked to put your name on the door, AND assume liability, then you need an ownership stake. This could be a great (or disastrous) deal but only you can say for sure, but it sounds like you don't know the actual details, nor even really what to assess here. Be careful.
If you're name is on the door and you still have a boss...
I certainly don't have a lot of experience, especially when it comes to dealing with the business side of things. I'll be doing a lot more of my own research to really understand what I'm getting into...
Trust me when I say this, because I just became partner last year, but you should already know those details because you should have already been managing some portion of the firm. The exception would be if you're coming from an outside firm to buy in, but that's not the case here. And I'm not saying you should know every aspect, but it seems like you're going in very blind.
The design thing may not be wholly your boss's fault. Would the aesthetic tastes (and probably the budgets) of your firm's clientele permit you to change the firm's design work to what you want it to be? I would investigate that as part of your decision making process.
I'm trying to understand this from the perspective of your employer ... what are they getting out of this arrangement? Is your name in the company name that important? Is your last name the same as a famous architect? Are you a well-known name in the community and with your potential clients?
Or, do they see the writing on the wall and are trying to get you to stick around instead of venturing out on your own and becoming their competitor, and this is the only thing they can offer you to entice you to stay?
Seems fishy to me to have your name on the door if you're not getting ownership stake, though I don't think you've addressed that question. You've indicated a quarter of the profit ... is that to imply a 25% ownership stake?
Your guess is as good as mine when it comes to why she wants my name in the business name. It's most likely that she wants it to be difficult for me to move on as you've mentioned.
If you're unsure of the value you bring to the business, or the value your potential business partner sees in you ... that's probably something you should figure out sooner rather than later. Either way, you're obviously not aware of the whole picture which seems like a really fundamental part of becoming a partner in a business.
Let me see if I'm getting this right. You want to eventually start your own firm. You have been presented with an opportunity to become a partner in a established firm with a established client base. Additionally, the level of commitment includes renaming the firm to include you specifically which is not something you do lightly because its sort of permanent and legal thing; Many corporate papers require that if your name is on the door, you must be in the firm. So when names leave, you have to redo the corp. There are lots of expenses with that.
As a partner, I assume you will have a say in the direction of the work as well as more say in the design. Do you know how hard it is to build a firm from scratch and find those client types you really want? FYI, your best clients don't hire firms without a track record, so if you start a firm, it is highly unlikely you'll just start off doing the kinds of projects you want. Additionally, you don't get paid marketing/networking, so you better have a income stream while seeking out work in those markets you want to pursue. You have expenses, so you better have billable jobs to pay those invoices. Essentially what I'm saying is becoming a partner in a established firm with ANY regular client stream of work is a billion times easier than starting off from scratch. Once you have a voice, you can steer the ship and start bringing in the work you want to do WHILE getting a paycheck because you have those other clients.
I don't see a huge downside unless the firm is bleeding and just needs your money to pay off debts. Even then, might not be a bad deal. My Dad bought a FAIA high design firm in Chapter 11 bankruptcy essentially for their portfolio and brand recognition to expand into other markets. See above; it is a lot easier to build off something established than build from scratch.
Thank you for your grounded perspective. I completely understand that it's a lofty goal and the most logical thing would be to just stay here for the rest of my life and make easy money. The thing is, the firm has a very specific niche that doesn't interest me much. Not to mention, don't we all aspire to start a firm of our own? :P
fobmasta, I was in a somewhat similar position several years ago, poised to become partner at a design/build firm. I ended up leaving the firm to focus on what I now specialize in. It has not been an easy road; I often wonder how things might have gone if I had stayed. I would definitely be farther ahead financially and would have had a lot more free time than I've had since I went on my own 6 years ago. Is there any chance that your firm's specialty could change, or that your interest could be added? How much of your desire to hang out your shingle is ego-driven?
99% ego driven. And with increasing family obligations, money and time are going to be very precious (kids in the future, aging parents in another country). Everything points to staying with my current company as the best decision and you know what, I'll probably be happy if I do (except for the occasional "what ifs"). Are you happy though? Are you happy that you've started your own firm and would you do it again?
My differences with other senior management and our clients was a pretty deep philosophical divide--I do "green" design, while they do fancy coastal homes and some historical restoration work, without regard to the environment, and I couldn't see that ever changing. Plus my wife and I wanted to move to where we are now, which would be over an hour commute each way. But if we weren't moving, and I wasn't as committed to environmental responsibility and occupant health, if I could do it over again I likely would have stayed. I enjoy aspects of having my own business, including bragging rights, but it's hard to wear all of the hats, and some of the hats that don't fit me well are hard to hire for.
Way to go. It's awesome that you made the move because of something you truly believe in. Maybe that's what I need...
Recapping here:
Conclusions:
Wait UBC you say?... is this potentially a Canukistan office? If so... the plot thickens.
Alternative conclusion, the firm owner is looking to off-load work/responsibilities for a small salary increase with the end goal of selling the firm when they retire:
"Hey, since you're making X$ millions while working remotely from your yacht, surely you've saved most of that right? Well, how about you give it all back to me + more and you can take the whole office and I get the fuck out of dodge?"
According to the post history it seems like this train wreck is on your side of the border. Nothing posted between 2013 and today so maybe the OP isn't completely incompetent if they were able to make it through grad school and the ExAC without asking for homework help or study materials here.
Maybe time to look up the term "shotgun clause"! Tough to sell a sole proprietorship, therefore sell half or more of the firm to others and make some bank. Planning in small firms for secession is a challenge and only a few limited moves one can make when trying to sell your corporate assets...at best it's successful firm with lots of repeat corporate / government clients. At worst it's old computers and office furniture. Somewhere in between is the value of the principle's network ( the "Blackbox", what they refer to as "good will" )
Hey Everyday Architect, will you leave my personal info alone? It's none of your business. Thank you.
It's not personal when you make it public info bud. Besides, nothing can really be established just from your grad school questions.
Make a deal that suits your needs and hers. Rather than a typical partnership, maybe open your own firm and form a joint venture with hers, where you can informally work together or apart as needed. ABC / XYZ collaborative or whatever. Work that comes through her will be split 40-60 or something...and vica versa. Let her know that you enjoy working with her but want to expand/focus on a different type of work. I actually did just that a few years ago with a larger design/build company, and it’s been working great. I have resources that they benefit from and they have resources that I benefit from. Each company is 100% independent, but we often collaborate and refer work back and forth. Clients like this too. Just be creative.
Also, gives you a safety cushion while you learn to get work.
That's actually a really smart way to go about it. Hadn't thought of that. What is something you can offer to the company? I'm assuming it's not just man-power but some type of expertise? Anyway I'll look into it, thanks!
That is a good idea. Maybe she wants to focus on sales and conceptual design and you could manage employees who do DD/CD/CA work, while also producing the kinds of projects you want to do. You can each specialize in your area of interest and you manage the workforce.
Use an alias