Hello, my name is Sam. I’m currently enrolled at UW-Milwaukee as an undeclared student. I’m a sophomore, so Im nearly out of gen eds to take. One path I’m interested in is Architecture. I’m reaching out to ask you what you think about your career and the field as a whole? Do you think it’s still worth getting a degree in architecture? Or would you recommend a different path for someone my age? What are the pros and cons of the field? I just don’t want to waste 6 years of college on something that isn’t very full-filing or a waste. I acknowledge that no field is perfect but I’d love to hear your opinion if you have the time. I know this is a very loaded question that has been asked many times before. I’m just curious to see if thoughts have changed as of the recent pandemic days. Thanks.
SlammingMiruvor
Mar 27, 21 6:53 pm
How do you define worth? Financially, it's more than likely a losing proposition, especially if you have student loans to repay. It can be incredibly rewarding though, especially when buildings come out of the ground and renovations take shape.
The pay isn't bad, but it doesn't match the amount of education, and professional experience required to practice. You're looking at 6+ years of education for the professional degree, 3+ years of 'supervised' professional experience, and 6 exams to call yourself an architect. When you compare that to law and medicine, and look at the pay across all three, architecture seems like a losing proposition. Personally they all offer similar levels of self-sufficiency and specialization.
What kind of patience do you have? The first 3-5 years out of school, while worthwhile, were not nearly as enjoyable as it is now at 8+ years of experience. I don't want to say starting out is bitch-work, but you're certainly low on the totem pole. It's a field that is incredibly hard to be 'naturally talented' in, it's much more driven by quantity and type of experiences.
What other majors are you considering? One thing that drove me towards architecture was the fact I couldn't do it as a hobby. I was otherwise interested in photography.
Ultimately, I'm extremely happy I chose architecture, but a huge driver for that is I went to a school where I left with a Master's degree in 5 years, after a shit load of work. I've been lucky with the opportunities I've gotten, and have made the most of them too. I think ultimately, if you're serious about perusing architecture you need to spend the next 2 months lining up a summer internship at an architecture firm, and then do some serious work and soul searching over the summer. Don't think about the work you're doing, look at the Project Architect's, Project Manager's, and Principals lives and ask yourself if you want that life.
thisisnotmyname
Mar 28, 21 9:42 am
It would be great if the OP could spend time in more than one firm. Life in this profession varies a lot from firm to firm.
Luques
Mar 28, 21 5:20 pm
'line up a summer internship at an architecture firm" "more than one firm" .... it seems to me that this is more easily said than done, especially for someone with no arch background as they seem to require some basic skills eg. Revit.
SlammingMiruvor
Mar 28, 21 6:06 pm
Never said it would be easy. If you think too you can just fire off some resume with summer work experience and general credits you're gonna be wasting everyone's time. Learning how to push a mouse is easy. Take some courses on edemy, lynda, etc. and then include that shit in your resume. Really, not rocket science.
geezertect
Mar 27, 21 10:39 pm
Read: Architect? by Roger Lewis.
midlander
Mar 28, 21 11:15 am
Sam, if you love architecture it's a great thing to study. If you don't, then there are easier ways to find a safe career with medium income potential. You'll struggle to justify the effort involved unless you really care about the result.
I'm very happy in my job excepting ordinary frustrations like high pressure projects and office politics. At 15 years in I get paid well (comparable to a school administrator or university professor). But I don't think I would have kept up at it during the most challenging periods of school and early job changes if I wasn't always focused on the objective of designing buildings to get built.
So there's no universal answer to your question - it all depends on you: your talents, commitment, and curiosity. For the right people it's a good career, but for the wrong ones it's an unrewarding slog. Think what it is you like about architecture, and look up the biographies of architects you admire.
square.
Mar 29, 21 2:45 pm
it is not worth it if you take on more loan debt than your first year's salary.
otherwise, relative to other professional options, just like all careers, it has its ups and downs, but can lead to a solid middle class life. and as a bonus, you with some interesting and broad skills that can translate to other interests and hobbies.
Peter Normand
Mar 31, 21 10:24 am
The Profession of Architect is a solid middle class profession, there are exceptions for those who are architect/developers and the few who become design firm executives but most people will be able to have a middle class lifestyle. The comparison to Law or medicine is a bit off, lawyers are not making a lot of money year to year, especially if they are not partners or recent graduates (6-12 years post graduate) Law school graduates make close to or even less than a typical recent graduate in architecture. Doctors have higher earnings but they also have a lot more debt, and it takes many years before they get past their education, residency and exams before they start to earn a living wage.
If you like designing buildings then architecture is what you should do.
Over and OUT
Peter N
RJ87
Mar 31, 21 11:18 am
The comparison to lawyers and doctors is tough because when they hit the real world they're licensed professionals. When recent architecture grads hit the profession they're interns, designers, or whatever the politically correct term for the day is. Becoming a licensed architect is, like you said, a great way to earn a middle class lifestyle.
Where I think lawyers & architects have commonality is in their business structure. The real money is in running a firm with repeat clients, at least in commercial architecture.
atelier nobody
Mar 31, 21 4:52 pm
"The comparison to lawyers and doctors is tough because when they hit the real world they're licensed professionals."
Only partially true. Law school grads can take the Bar exam immediately out of school, but most don't do so until at least a year or so working as law clerks.
Doctors absolutely do have to do a residency before being eligible for their Board exams and licensure (they are allowed to call themselves "Doctor" prior to licensure, unlike architects).
RJ87
Mar 31, 21 5:06 pm
I disagree on lawyers. Most entry jobs are accepted contingent on your passing of the bar exam, as almost everyone takes it just after law school. Not to date myself (in the opposite way), but I'm actively at the age where my peers (& sister) have just graduated from law school & passed the bar within the last few years. Most of my friends just stayed in their college town / crap apartment & studied until the bar exam was available. The bar is only available twice a year usually in February & July, almost immediately after Fall & Spring graduations.
All this isn't to say that they're of higher status, I firmly believe they're not. But it is to say they are less relaxed on the unlicensed professionals front.
Jaetten
Apr 1, 21 7:32 am
Entry level legal jobs with a 3yr degree are £45-50k in London (if you can land one with a big firm), To get that as an Architect in a big firm your looking at 7 years uni and 5-10 years experience.
A part 1 here will earn about £18k, minimum wage is now £17.5k.
Appears different in the US, but for such a huge outlay in cost, you have to be dedicated to becoming an architect.
atelier nobody
Apr 1, 21 1:05 pm
WOW, architecture is not lucrative in the US, but just above minimum wage?!?!? I made more than that as a drafter with no degree at my first job.
Chad Miller
Apr 1, 21 1:34 pm
Remember who this is coming from though.
archi_dude
Apr 1, 21 4:59 pm
The guys pushing brooms on my construction sites make 23$/hr. I would believe that beats master grads in arch.
Chad Miller
Apr 2, 21 9:58 am
Depends on where you are archi. Also how good you are at architecture.
Jaetten
Apr 2, 21 2:13 pm
Atelier, that was uk figures, not us, taken from the RIBA annual pay scale. Law figures taken from published salaries on job adverts and the law society.
archi_dude
Apr 1, 21 4:51 pm
I think what I wish I could tell my younger self is: Yes it is very important to enjoy what you do. However, part of that is making sure what you do is secure, has many opportunities and keeps you financially stable. Architecture simply does not do this compared with most other jobs. It is HIGHLY dependent on the business cycle and the sector you are in. You need a constant stream of new investment to keep a firm running, their is no maintenance work. This creates cycles of extreme uncertainty that pit employees against each other and into a mentality of accepting low wages and working conditions to remain employed. Due to an oversupply of interested people, opportunities are really only given to the top 10%, the other 90% become drafters and project administrators, is that really what you are going to school for? To be a Project manager or a drafter? If so that brings us to the last aspect. Income. You can make more money in almost anything. Teachers make more and they get summer breaks. And if you really are okay with being a project manager why not be a project manager for tech or bio tech or anything where there are bonuses and stock payouts. Because while many people say money doesnt matter. They are wrong. Money is not everything and chasing it will leave you hollow but making good money, enough to feel as though all your expenses are covered and you have extra to experience life with, that is huge in terms of reaching a secure and happy life. Also jobs are jobs. A job can be engaging if you are free to operate independently and have ownership over your work and success. However, a job with little pay, high critical and micro managing bosses is a jail sentence no matter how "creative" it is.
RJ87
Apr 1, 21 5:12 pm
In what world are teachers with comparable experience making more money than architects? I'd hardly call 110k architects out of 328 million people in the US an oversupply either.
archi_dude
Apr 1, 21 5:44 pm
Quick googling
archi_dude
Apr 1, 21 5:46 pm
"Average teacher pay in CA - 82k" "average architecture pay in CA, 64k" if there is not an oversupply why is it such a laughable salary?
RJ87
Apr 2, 21 9:51 am
Ah, I often forget about the upside down world of California. In Florida the average for a teacher is about 56K, where for architects its about 80k. While 80K isn't the most lavish salary in the world, its not a bad median, especially when compared to the rest of society. As for why the average is lower than other professional occupations I generally think architects tend to be horrible advocates for themselves & get too caught up in architecture as an art as opposed to architecture as a business.
Chad Miller
Apr 2, 21 9:57 am
And in Colorado the average teacher pay is $53,200 and an architects is $72,000.
RJ87
Apr 2, 21 9:59 am
Nationally its about 62k for teachers & 89k for architects.
Chad Miller
Apr 2, 21 10:01 am
Archi - sounds like you need to find a new firm.
Non Sequitur
Apr 2, 21 10:12 am
funny. teachers in my area go from mid 60s to 105k loonies... in about 8years of full time experience. You're lucky to break 70k as a licensed arch in a typical office unless you have 10+ years. Those numbers are fine. New grads are not worth big money just because arch school is demanding... nor are arch more important than teachers.
RJ87
Apr 2, 21 12:12 pm
The fact that new architecture grads are entirely unprepared for the real world is an issue in and of itself. But I suppose that's why they have mandated experience requirements before licensure, even if they're not very expansive either.
Side note, when I first read your post on the "money central" thread, I thought you were using loonies as an imaginary currency. Only after re-reading it weeks later did I realize you were Canadian.
atelier nobody
Apr 2, 21 1:14 pm
As an architect with teachers in the family in California, I can 'splain: Starting salaries for teachers and arch. grads in CA are comparable but architects pull ahead after 10-15 years or so. The reason the average for teachers is higher is because the majority of teachers are older and have been teaching a long time - it's actually going to be a big problem as the Boomer teachers retire, because, unlike architecture, teaching has not been pulling in the young and naïve at a sufficient rate to replace the retirees.
Hello, my name is Sam. I’m currently enrolled at UW-Milwaukee as an undeclared student. I’m a sophomore, so Im nearly out of gen eds to take. One path I’m interested in is Architecture. I’m reaching out to ask you what you think about your career and the field as a whole? Do you think it’s still worth getting a degree in architecture? Or would you recommend a different path for someone my age? What are the pros and cons of the field? I just don’t want to waste 6 years of college on something that isn’t very full-filing or a waste. I acknowledge that no field is perfect but I’d love to hear your opinion if you have the time. I know this is a very loaded question that has been asked many times before. I’m just curious to see if thoughts have changed as of the recent pandemic days. Thanks.
How do you define worth? Financially, it's more than likely a losing proposition, especially if you have student loans to repay. It can be incredibly rewarding though, especially when buildings come out of the ground and renovations take shape.
The pay isn't bad, but it doesn't match the amount of education, and professional experience required to practice. You're looking at 6+ years of education for the professional degree, 3+ years of 'supervised' professional experience, and 6 exams to call yourself an architect. When you compare that to law and medicine, and look at the pay across all three, architecture seems like a losing proposition. Personally they all offer similar levels of self-sufficiency and specialization.
What kind of patience do you have? The first 3-5 years out of school, while worthwhile, were not nearly as enjoyable as it is now at 8+ years of experience. I don't want to say starting out is bitch-work, but you're certainly low on the totem pole. It's a field that is incredibly hard to be 'naturally talented' in, it's much more driven by quantity and type of experiences.
What other majors are you considering? One thing that drove me towards architecture was the fact I couldn't do it as a hobby. I was otherwise interested in photography.
Ultimately, I'm extremely happy I chose architecture, but a huge driver for that is I went to a school where I left with a Master's degree in 5 years, after a shit load of work. I've been lucky with the opportunities I've gotten, and have made the most of them too. I think ultimately, if you're serious about perusing architecture you need to spend the next 2 months lining up a summer internship at an architecture firm, and then do some serious work and soul searching over the summer. Don't think about the work you're doing, look at the Project Architect's, Project Manager's, and Principals lives and ask yourself if you want that life.
It would be great if the OP could spend time in more than one firm. Life in this profession varies a lot from firm to firm.
'line up a summer internship at an architecture firm" "more than one firm" .... it seems to me that this is more easily said than done, especially for someone with no arch background as they seem to require some basic skills eg. Revit.
Never said it would be easy. If you think too you can just fire off some resume with summer work experience and general credits you're gonna be wasting everyone's time. Learning how to push a mouse is easy. Take some courses on edemy, lynda, etc. and then include that shit in your resume. Really, not rocket science.
Read: Architect? by Roger Lewis.
Sam, if you love architecture it's a great thing to study. If you don't, then there are easier ways to find a safe career with medium income potential. You'll struggle to justify the effort involved unless you really care about the result.
I'm very happy in my job excepting ordinary frustrations like high pressure projects and office politics. At 15 years in I get paid well (comparable to a school administrator or university professor). But I don't think I would have kept up at it during the most challenging periods of school and early job changes if I wasn't always focused on the objective of designing buildings to get built.
So there's no universal answer to your question - it all depends on you: your talents, commitment, and curiosity. For the right people it's a good career, but for the wrong ones it's an unrewarding slog. Think what it is you like about architecture, and look up the biographies of architects you admire.
it is not worth it if you take on more loan debt than your first year's salary.
otherwise, relative to other professional options, just like all careers, it has its ups and downs, but can lead to a solid middle class life. and as a bonus, you with some interesting and broad skills that can translate to other interests and hobbies.
The Profession of Architect is a solid middle class profession, there are exceptions for those who are architect/developers and the few who become design firm executives but most people will be able to have a middle class lifestyle. The comparison to Law or medicine is a bit off, lawyers are not making a lot of money year to year, especially if they are not partners or recent graduates (6-12 years post graduate) Law school graduates make close to or even less than a typical recent graduate in architecture. Doctors have higher earnings but they also have a lot more debt, and it takes many years before they get past their education, residency and exams before they start to earn a living wage.
If you like designing buildings then architecture is what you should do.
Over and OUT
Peter N
The comparison to lawyers and doctors is tough because when they hit the real world they're licensed professionals. When recent architecture grads hit the profession they're interns, designers, or whatever the politically correct term for the day is. Becoming a licensed architect is, like you said, a great way to earn a middle class lifestyle.
Where I think lawyers & architects have commonality is in their business structure. The real money is in running a firm with repeat clients, at least in commercial architecture.
"The comparison to lawyers and doctors is tough because when they hit the real world they're licensed professionals."
Only partially true. Law school grads can take the Bar exam immediately out of school, but most don't do so until at least a year or so working as law clerks.
Doctors absolutely do have to do a residency before being eligible for their Board exams and licensure (they are allowed to call themselves "Doctor" prior to licensure, unlike architects).
I disagree on lawyers. Most entry jobs are accepted contingent on your passing of the bar exam, as almost everyone takes it just after law school. Not to date myself (in the opposite way), but I'm actively at the age where my peers (& sister) have just graduated from law school & passed the bar within the last few years. Most of my friends just stayed in their college town / crap apartment & studied until the bar exam was available. The bar is only available twice a year usually in February & July, almost immediately after Fall & Spring graduations.
All this isn't to say that they're of higher status, I firmly believe they're not. But it is to say they are less relaxed on the unlicensed professionals front.
Entry level legal jobs with a 3yr degree are £45-50k in London (if you can land one with a big firm), To get that as an Architect in a big firm your looking at 7 years uni and 5-10 years experience.
A part 1 here will earn about £18k, minimum wage is now £17.5k.
Appears different in the US, but for such a huge outlay in cost, you have to be dedicated to becoming an architect.
WOW, architecture is not lucrative in the US, but just above minimum wage?!?!? I made more than that as a drafter with no degree at my first job.
Remember who this is coming from though.
The guys pushing brooms on my construction sites make 23$/hr. I would believe that beats master grads in arch.
Depends on where you are archi. Also how good you are at architecture.
Atelier, that was uk figures, not us, taken from the RIBA annual pay scale. Law figures taken from published salaries on job adverts and the law society.
I think what I wish I could tell my younger self is: Yes it is very important to enjoy what you do. However, part of that is making sure what you do is secure, has many opportunities and keeps you financially stable. Architecture simply does not do this compared with most other jobs. It is HIGHLY dependent on the business cycle and the sector you are in. You need a constant stream of new investment to keep a firm running, their is no maintenance work. This creates cycles of extreme uncertainty that pit employees against each other and into a mentality of accepting low wages and working conditions to remain employed. Due to an oversupply of interested people, opportunities are really only given to the top 10%, the other 90% become drafters and project administrators, is that really what you are going to school for? To be a Project manager or a drafter? If so that brings us to the last aspect. Income. You can make more money in almost anything. Teachers make more and they get summer breaks. And if you really are okay with being a project manager why not be a project manager for tech or bio tech or anything where there are bonuses and stock payouts. Because while many people say money doesnt matter. They are wrong. Money is not everything and chasing it will leave you hollow but making good money, enough to feel as though all your expenses are covered and you have extra to experience life with, that is huge in terms of reaching a secure and happy life. Also jobs are jobs. A job can be engaging if you are free to operate independently and have ownership over your work and success. However, a job with little pay, high critical and micro managing bosses is a jail sentence no matter how "creative" it is.
In what world are teachers with comparable experience making more money than architects? I'd hardly call 110k architects out of 328 million people in the US an oversupply either.
Quick googling
"Average teacher pay in CA - 82k" "average architecture pay in CA, 64k" if there is not an oversupply why is it such a laughable salary?
Ah, I often forget about the upside down world of California. In Florida the average for a teacher is about 56K, where for architects its about 80k. While 80K isn't the most lavish salary in the world, its not a bad median, especially when compared to the rest of society. As for why the average is lower than other professional occupations I generally think architects tend to be horrible advocates for themselves & get too caught up in architecture as an art as opposed to architecture as a business.
And in Colorado the average teacher pay is $53,200 and an architects is $72,000.
Nationally its about 62k for teachers & 89k for architects.
Archi - sounds like you need to find a new firm.
funny. teachers in my area go from mid 60s to 105k loonies... in about 8years of full time experience. You're lucky to break 70k as a licensed arch in a typical office unless you have 10+ years. Those numbers are fine. New grads are not worth big money just because arch school is demanding... nor are arch more important than teachers.
The fact that new architecture grads are entirely unprepared for the real world is an issue in and of itself. But I suppose that's why they have mandated experience requirements before licensure, even if they're not very expansive either. Side note, when I first read your post on the "money central" thread, I thought you were using loonies as an imaginary currency. Only after re-reading it weeks later did I realize you were Canadian.
As an architect with teachers in the family in California, I can 'splain: Starting salaries for teachers and arch. grads in CA are comparable but architects pull ahead after 10-15 years or so. The reason the average for teachers is higher is because the majority of teachers are older and have been teaching a long time - it's actually going to be a big problem as the Boomer teachers retire, because, unlike architecture, teaching has not been pulling in the young and naïve at a sufficient rate to replace the retirees.