Recently graduated with M.Arch. Have about 5 years of professional experience at architectural firms. I want to choose between New York city vs Los Angeles to live and work at. Single person.
Let me hear some of your thoughts about the 2 cities?
natematt
Oct 30, 20 2:33 am
LA is cheaper and will be warmer for the next 5 months...
Jay1122
Oct 30, 20 9:28 am
LA over NY any day. Shouldn't you let the job offer lead you if you have such flexibility? These major cities are very competitive both market wise and culturally. I would even go for 2nd tier city if the firm/job is better. Just my 2 cents. Also consider if you have relatives on east or west side. It will help when you need them or even just get together during holidays.
David Cole, AIA
Oct 30, 20 1:41 pm
I've lived in both cities and love them both. Ultimately it will come down to what kind of lifestyle you want.
LA is only slightly cheaper than NYC these days, but in LA you'll have the added expense of owning a car, which will more than eat up any cost of living savings. Be sure to create a realistic budget for each city; you might be surprised which one comes out ahead.
LA has nicer beaches and better tacos, though, so it might be worth it.
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 7:12 pm
Is living in LA without a car a bad idea? If realistically you work close to home?
David Cole, AIA
Oct 30, 20 8:29 pm
I guess it depends on where you are, what's within easy walking / biking or transit distance, and what you want to do for fun. It's great if you can commute to/from work without a car, but also keep in mind things like the grocery store, hardware store, the doctor's office, places to eat and drink, etc. And a big part of LA's appeal is being able to get up into the mountains or out to the beach pretty easily. You'll usually need a car for that stuff.
atelier nobody
Oct 30, 20 8:46 pm
Our public transit is pathetic. There are a few places where you could live, work, and shop within a smaller area, but plan on an hour+ of multiple trains and busses (or an expensive Uber) if you want to see any of the city outside your little pocket of walkable urbanity.
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 8:57 pm
Yeah thats one of the biggest turn off about LA. Unless I'm making 6 figures, I don't think I can live that comfortable lifestyle. Most firms in NY are located in Manhattan, and living there is another whole story. There are def a lot of pros and cons in both cities.
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 8:57 pm
.
archi_dude
Oct 31, 20 10:16 am
"Work close to home in LA", HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Non Sequitur
Oct 31, 20 11:14 am
curious to see what the change in compensation is between a fresh (online) M.arch grad in toronto to one in NY or LA.
RobG
Sep 24, 22 1:07 pm
I lived without a car for almost 6 years in LA. It definitely depends on where you live/work/entertain yourself. Most people in LA are loathe to cross town unless we absolutely have to, as it is.The East side is near downtown and all the metro lines converge downtown so if you choose DTLA or the East Side you have access to a lot, but again that depends on where exactly you end up.
The West side is its own thing anyway. I don't think most people on the West side come downtown or to the Eastside unless they have to.I think that would be more of a challenge to live car free but there is a lot of dining and entertainment on the West side too, so it just depends on how much of a fit you are for your neighborhood.
x-jla
Oct 30, 20 2:26 pm
stay single whichever city you choose.
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 7:12 pm
noted
atelier nobody
Oct 30, 20 8:49 pm
Counterpoint - 2 incomes really help in higher cost-of-living cities, but DON'T have kids.
przemula
Sep 29, 22 1:23 pm
It's even cheaper to kill yourself. And if city won't be able to identify your body, they'll have to bury you for free
Non Sequitur
Oct 30, 20 2:29 pm
wait 5 days and see if it's still a place you want to move to.
archi_dude
Oct 31, 20 10:17 am
*which one is still standing
atelier nobody
Oct 30, 20 3:16 pm
I honestly wouldn't recommend either. I've lived most of my life in the LA area, but unless one is already connected with family, social circles, etc. it can be a harsh experience. If I were starting out fresh, I'd aim for "2nd tier" cities - Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, etc. Cost of living is lower, stress is lower, and you'll generally find just as much "culture" as you would in LA, San Francisco, Chicago (probably somewhat less than NYC, though). My one sojourn outside LA was in Minneapolis for about 5 years, and I loved it (winters can be a bit much for some people though). I've also spent significant time visiting Seattle, and would move there in a heartbeat if I had a good job offer (or, better yet, Vancouver, BC).
flatroof
Oct 30, 20 3:21 pm
Chicago is cheaper to live in than Seattle and Portland these days. Minneapolis seems to have the same rent prices as Chicago now. Philly is good if you want to live on the East Coast and still be 90 min to NYC.
whistler
Oct 30, 20 4:46 pm
Not Vancouver ..... don't go I hear it sucks!
atelier nobody
Oct 30, 20 6:36 pm
I'm totally ready to Californicate Vancouver at the first opportunity.
whistler
Oct 30, 20 6:42 pm
Wednesday???
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 7:13 pm
Vancouver is the closest thing to LA vibe Canada has
Non Sequitur
Oct 30, 20 8:02 pm
LA =\= Vancouver. Not even close.
whistler
Oct 30, 20 8:11 pm
Don't tell all those folks in Kitsilano, they think they're
living in Venice Beach!
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 8:18 pm
haha I actually visited vancouver couple months ago. I can tell why they think its venice.
atelier nobody
Oct 30, 20 8:51 pm
"Vancouver is the closest thing to LA vibe Canada has"
Gawd, I hope not - Vancouverites have my deepest sympathy if that's true.
ArchKid
Oct 30, 20 8:55 pm
nothing wrong with that. Vancouver has the warmest (mildest) average weather in all of Canada. Even that, compared to LA, its still pretty cold. It doesn't have the nightlife of LA either. But just in terms of mountains, beach, views. Thats how Im comparing it to LA
sparkyy
Oct 30, 20 3:20 pm
I agree w David. Depends on what lifestyle you're looking for. I'm in NYC and I moved here from the SF Bay Area. When I get older I may consider moving back, probably to the East Bay. I'm a single woman in early 30s... still prefer NYC.
The_Crow
Oct 30, 20 4:15 pm
Currently with the pandemic you're still paying the cost to live in NY without all of the world class things to do that make it worth it. Now that the cold weather is here, there really isn't anything to do...
sparkyy
Oct 30, 20 10:13 pm
I still do the things I enjoyed doing. I love the diversity here. There is something unique about this city which I have not felt anywhere else. I have a simple lifestyle. I work hard and enjoy training thai boxing. My gym is now open, w all the safety precautions in place. Staying safe, working hard, training hard :)
Koww
Oct 30, 20 10:39 pm
which state elected a body builder as governor?
archinine
Nov 1, 20 5:13 pm
Yep nyc is terrible. Definitely go somewhere else. Nothing to see here
randomised
Nov 2, 20 2:04 am
it’s funny always those discussions about LA vs NY, there’s literally an entire country in between that’s being ignored, kind of explains the state your country is in...that said, NY no doubt.
x-jla
Sep 23, 22 10:42 am
And the area in between is far more livable and less annoying
justavisual
Nov 2, 20 5:20 am
LA no doubt, but dont pretend you can do it without a car.
Jason Eltern
Sep 26, 22 12:31 pm
Graduated in NYC, Interned and started post-grad here, so I really have no idea what it would be like if I wasn't here. My opinion of NYC is:
- Not needing a car is super nice. I cannot imagine owning a car (paying insurance, maintanence) to be able to live fully. It is just such a hassle in my mind. But I get the freedom of owning it however.
- I can cycle anywhere, as long as I am going less than 13mi away, bicycle would be comparable or considerably faster commute.
- Just pleasant to walk to favourite restaurant, cycle to a nice park, subway to a musical.
- If you don't have rich parents, and want to actually save some of your earnings, I guess you just have to have roommates until marraige or live in dangerous neighbourhoods. But I do not get the fuss of 5 storey walk-ups, etc etc... unless you are like 50. Laundromat experience sucks, but you get used to it.
- the density of the city does wear me out sometimes though. I noticed this especially when I visited Seattle. Just needed a reminder that cities do not have to be so loud and crowded. As a person who hates night life, NYC sucks sometimes.
-homelessness, lack of street etiquettes are also very noticeable.
homme_du_jura
Sep 26, 22 1:27 pm
I keep encountering this fixation on these two cities so much on these forums and I'm asking myself why. I've visited New York and L.A. multiple times and experienced their various neighborhoods each time and the appeal diminishes pretty quickly. Neither of these cities possess the kind of cultural and commercial advantages they once had a few decades ago. You can enjoy a lot of the same amenities and retain more of your income for a more comfortable lifestyle in the so-called "second" and "third tier" cities mentioned above. This has become more evident during the last few years as NY&LA are beset by rising crime and endemic corruption, with neither likely to be adequately addressed for a long time to come.
square.
Sep 26, 22 5:44 pm
Neither of these cities possess the kind of cultural and commercial advantages they once had a few decades ago.
this is a wildly exaggerated statement that needs a lot of clarification. say what you will about living in nyc (yes it's hard, yes it's expensive as hell, and certainly not for everyone), but it's one of the capital cities of the world, and for a reason. just because you don't "find the various neighborhoods appealing" (whatever that means) doesn't make your claim accurate.
homme_du_jura
Sep 28, 22 11:58 am
I question this idea that since NYC is one of the "capital" cities of the world then it's really worth living there. With the onset of globalism, power has been dispersing from the large global cosmopolitan centers to smaller more regional capitals. LA and NYC have lost much of their commercial and cultural clout during the past few decades. The industries that shaped these cities' identities have rapidly been leaving for other more favorable environments (e.g. financial companies relocating to Charlotte, Miami and Dallas; Hollywood migrating to Georgia one blockbuster at a time; Tech establishing new hubs in Salt Lake City, Austin and Raleigh). What these older pedestrian-oriented cities offered was convenient physical proximity to job centers, but since the pandemic the large out-migration of residents to less dense suburbs and smaller cities revealed that many people would rather live elsewhere if given the chance. When work from home finally became viable, and all of a sudden the demand for more offices, a key component of downtowns, is going to inevitably shrink. The spike in crime in these "capital"' cities doesn't help things either. When I wrote that cities such as NY and LA seemed to lose their appeal, I meant that from various scales and locations, both in their commercial cores as well as in their neighborhoods, there seemed to be evidence of neglect and dysfunctional municipal services. Brooklyn and Queens might have their charm, but they are saddled with decaying built fabric and crumbling infrastructure that makes these places far from world class. Manhattan still retains an incredible built legacy that makes it stand out among all cities on the globe, but it increasingly becomes a city best enjoyed for visiting rather than for living.
square.
Sep 28, 22 4:23 pm
LA and NYC have lost much of their commercial and cultural clout during the past few decades
where is your evidence on this? tech has a huge presence that is growing in nyc, alongside traditional financial markets which are so obvious i can't believe i need to say it. sure things are shifting but some of the most important cultural institutions are still here (broadway, museums, etc etc etc etc..)
Manhattan still retains an incredible built legacy that makes it stand out among all cities on the globe
my point is proven, thanks.
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 12:10 pm
I was born and lived on NY until I was in my mid 20’s. Walked home through the worst neighborhoods at 2am when crime was way higher than now. I would not feel safe in a crowded city with my kids now. Last time I visited it was nerve racking to be in the subways with an infant. Not only the crime, but the potential for terrorism, pandemics, natural disasters… I was there during 9-11. I could see the smoke stack from my house. After that, my opinion of dense urban environments as a place that I wanted to live changed. It’s a great place to grow up. It’s a great place to live when you are single. The dynamic changes when you have a family to worry about. I know that statistically it’s safe, but there is a claustrophobic nature to nyc that becomes overwhelming for some folks. I remember as a kid feeling overwhelmed by the noise and lights. And I was born there. It’s not for everyone.
square.
Sep 28, 22 12:28 pm
i'm sorry you live in so much fear- nyc is still a wonderful place to visit and live. i can hear the kids in the playground right now. it's a beautiful day.
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 12:32 pm
Wasn't x-jla posting that NYC isn't safe farther up thread? Something about crime being up 40%? Now he says he knows it's safe.
I'm not a fan of living in large metro areas. I don't have to misrepresent their level of safety to justify my personal preferences. I've been to many, many, huge metro areas in the US and Europe. I was uneasy because I don't like huge crowds. I never felt unsafe through.
square.
Sep 28, 22 2:52 pm
chad imagine people having different preference for how they live, without needing to project those preference onto others?
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 3:19 pm
I know, how weird would that be!?
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 3:33 pm
Chad, you have a very black and white thinking style. Crime is up 30-40%. That’s a fact. That doesn’t automatically make the city “dangerous” in comparison to higher crime cities like Detroit or St Louis. It’s becoming more dangerous for sure. That’s a factual trend based on data. Yes, as a parent I fear for the safety of my offspring. I’m pretty confident in my ability to knock out a crazy subway dweller…I can do much about a more virulent pandemic break out and a govt lockdown if I’m in a crowded city like nyc. I like being closer to the outdoors. That’s my preference, as I clearly stated in the personalized post. I’m not projecting that preference, you are projecting your preference for urbanized areas. As for the crime, that’s not a feeling, it’s a fact based on data as I clearly pointed out.
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 3:37 pm
Especially after the draconian and frivolous lockdowns and mandates in nyc, the failures after failures, lies, hypocrisy, the corruption, the riots…it’s clear to me that densely populated urban areas, especially those run by a certain party, are places where the shit can hit the fan pretty quickly. It’s something to consider strongly of you are considering opening a business that can be shutdown or destroyed, having a family, etc.
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 3:37 pm
The 30-40% number you keep stating isn't correct. Look at the NYC crime data you linked. It's the same data that I'm using.
You said that crime has gone up 30-40% from last year. The data you're providing says that crime has gone up 13 - 32% from July 2022 to August 2022 depending on the type of major crime.
Overall major crimes have gone up 9% from this time last year.
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 3:39 pm
But here is my exact quote from “above”, Chad. “ 30-40% is a lot, but it’s still no where near the levels of the 80’s and early 90’s.”
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 3:41 pm
I think the intelligentsia judge everything by the state of their enclaves, where dogs wear sweaters, and artisanal mayonnaise is sold for 40$ a jar.
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 3:43 pm
See my reply above. You're using a rise in major crime from July to August 2022. Your data is NOT for the major crime rates from this time last year. That's the point that you don't seem to understand.
No one is reporting anything lower than 30%. Even dnc state media-aka
cnn.
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 3:54 pm
“Overall index crime in New York City increased in July 2022, by 30.5% compared with July 2021 (11,619 v. 8,906). Six of the seven major index-crime categories saw increases, driven by a 40.6% increase in grand larceny (4,588 v. 3,262), a 37.2% increase in robbery (1,730 v. 1,261), and a 25.6% rise in burglary (1,325 v. 1,055).”. This is from the ny.gov site. It’s comparing July 2021-July 2022, but that’s not the big increase. The trend starts in 2019. If we compare the increase over the last 5 years
it’s way higher than 30%.
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 3:55 pm
Look at the NYC crime data page that you linked. It says something different.
I'm not looking at anything but the NYC reported data.
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 3:59 pm
like I said, there were about 500 murders in 2020. In 1990 it was like 2200. There is a rising trend, but it’s still not like it was in 1990. I lived there in 1990. Travel Warnings were issued to tourists. It was “dangerous” for an American city. Not Caracas dangerous, but relatively dangerous.
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 4:09 pm
Look at the NYC crime data from this time last year. I don't care about what happened in the 90's.
square.
Sep 28, 22 4:16 pm
xlax, your insecruties are showing. op showed up originally asking about living in la and nyc, and you've gone on a tirade about why YOU don't like nyc and think it's dangerous as someone who hasn't lived there for decades. meanwhile those of us who actually live here have genuine, credible advice to give (all of which has acknowledge that yes indeed there is crime, but it's largely worth it if it's something you want to do). surely if you were in their shoes and an actual sane person, you would listen to the first-person accounts and not those of some loony who left the city literal decades ago and clearly has an agenda and unaddressed neurosis.
for the record, i like spending time in rural areas/outdoors, and completely understand why people choose to live there.
again, i ask you to respond to the original question without bringing up your pet anxieties like "artisanal mayonnaise", which is really just a stand-in for your grievances against coastal liberals: what is the safest big city in the us?
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 6:01 pm
You sound butt hurt that people are noticing rising crime and the failures of liberal policies. How dare they! People are leaving nyc and la for good reasons. It’s overpriced and social decline is obviously expanding. Portland, Seattle, Chicago, SF, are all experiencing decline. Can you guess the common denominator?
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 6:03 pm
And like I said, “dangerous” for 1200.00 a month is acceptable. “Mildly dangerous” for 5000.00 a month is not. For the prices of NYC, I can have a nice place somewhere without people shitting on the sidewalk.
Chad Miller
Sep 28, 22 6:33 pm
Of the top 20 cities in the US with the most crime per capita, 13/20 cities are in republican run states. Notice a common denominator?
"And like I said, “dangerous” for 1200.00 a month is acceptable. “Mildly dangerous” for 5000.00 a month is not. For the prices of NYC, I can have a nice place somewhere without people shitting on the sidewalk."
Farther up you where saying that NYC was safe. Now you're back to saying it's not not safe? You also said you were worried about terrorism and pandemics but later on lamented the responses to these situations as if NTY was over reaching.
You're contradicting yourself a lot here x-jla.
homme_du_jura
Sep 28, 22 7:06 pm
Well said, x-jla. I understand the romantic aspirations of those who want to move to such vaunted cultural capitals like NYC. I did the same earlier in my career when I worked in Chicago, where I enjoyed the perfect aesthetic lifestyle living in a cute brownstone, taking the El train, walking by landmark buildings on a daily basis by Louis Sullivan, Mies, and SOM while enjoying views of Lake Michigan from the office window. But after a year living there it was clear that it wasn't well suited to my goals of raising a family in comfort and safety, and that was during the "good" days when the mayor was competent and crime was at historic lows. What annoys me is that we have so many threads started by people who committed themselves to live the rough and tumble urban life in an overpriced cultural capital complain about their lives becoming difficult because they don't make enough to enjoy a lifestyle that is really only accessible to the richest.
x-jla
Sep 28, 22 7:16 pm
Chad, this is too hard for you. The nuance is too much. Stop trying to say what I wrote. We can all look and see. One can be concerned with potential future Pandemics that are more virulent, and the over reaching responses we saw to covid. I know it’s hard for you, but one can say that crime rates are rising, and it’s of concern, and simultaneously say that the city is fairly safe relative to other cities and it’s own past rates. We are allowed to do this. It’s called nuance. Nuance is not the same a contradiction.
square.
Sep 29, 22 9:24 am
Of the top 20 cities in the US with the most crime per capita, 13/20 cities are in republican run states. Notice a common denominator?
this should have ended the conversation.. xlax still can't answer the original question of what big city is safer.
What annoys me is that we have so many threads started by people who committed themselves to live the rough and tumble urban life in an overpriced cultural capital complain about their lives becoming difficult because they don't make enough to enjoy a lifestyle that is really only accessible to the richest.
also, what's with the obsession of other people choosing to live in the coastal cities? if you don't want to, great! but op does. you're contributing nothing by airing your personal grievances and obsessing with other people's lifestyles. comment on other threads if it annoys you, but it shouldn't come as any surprise that many architects choose to move to two of the largest cities in the country, where there is a ton of concentrated building, hence jobs.
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 11:00 am
I don’t care where the op chooses to move. He is asking for opinions. I gave one. None of the above is my answer. You are using 1 metric- safety. I am saying that rising crime is one of many factors to consider. Crime is a proxy for many problems that the city is experiencing. It is in a state if decline. You can choose to move to a very expensive and crowded city, with draconian tendencies, in a state of decline, or a less expensive less crowded city, that is doing well. It’s the op’s choice.
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 11:03 am
You would have to be a special kind of serf to open a business in a state that is willing to wanton shut you down for months, putting many hard working peoples dress
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 11:05 am
* dreams out of business. Same time leaving McDonald’s and all the corporate overlords alone. That’s a city that hates its citizens. That’s a city who’s priorities are clear. What kind of stupid person would invest their time and money into such a place?
Chad Miller
Sep 29, 22 11:05 am
That's not what you said.
You stated that crime in NYC had gone up 40% and that made the area unsafe. None of that is correct.
You then backpedaled and contradicted yourself when conflicting information disproved your original statement. You didn't post a personal opinion on the living in NYC until after all of the above.
You're now trying to blame the high crime ( or is it the relative safety? ) of NYC on liberal policies and assign malevolent motivation to the government for overreach.
You need to get professional help x-jla. You have some serious mental issues regarding your paranoia and delusions of grandeur.
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 11:18 am
Crime has gone up 30-40% per the articles and data that I linked. Are they lying? Can you pin point where I contradict myself?
Chad Miller
Sep 29, 22 12:10 pm
Look at the actual data in the report. The page you're looking at was for July. If you take the data from Sept 21 to Sept 22 the crime rate has gone down putting major crimes around a 12% rise. Also look at the contributing factors to the initial rise in crime rates. Simply look at ALL the data, not just the portions the support your opinions.
Also I like how you're ignoring that you've been contradicting yourself throughout your posts: "NYC isn't safe - just look at the rising crime rate, NYC is safe - it was way worse, NYC isn't safe because of the liberal policies." Make up your mind.
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 12:48 pm
It’s pretty low to make up fake quotes by me when what I actually wrote is all above.
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 12:58 pm
Jla-x “The temperature has been increasing over the last few years because of xyz”. Chad-“is it hot, or is it cold, make up mind you contradicting!” A rising crime rate is an indication that it may be it may soon become “dangerous”. No one said that it is currently “dangerous”- which is a subjective designation. It may seem dangerous to someone coming from Tokyo, but safe to someone coming from Caracas. Crime in nyc is not at the levels that it was in1990, but if the trajectory continues, it can exceed 1990 rates. The policies that contributed to this show no signs of changing. If they do, one can reassess. A reasonable person would take this into consideration when planning a long term decision to live there.
x-jla
Sep 29, 22 1:00 pm
Like I said, crime was a primary concern for people (especially people in less wealthy areas) in the 80’s and 90’s. Why wouldn’t it be? Those concerns are once again becoming a major issue for inhabitants. What is hard to understand?
homme_du_jura
Sep 30, 22 12:03 pm
Square,
homme_du_jura
Sep 30, 22 2:56 pm
Square,
The OP simply asked for advice on where they should move to, NYC or LA. My advice was "neither", and then questioned why young architects were still fixated on this common binary choice when it comes to making such an important move. It might not be the kind of advice that the OP wants to receive, but I've come across way too many fellow professionals who have fled both NYC and LA in recent years for precisely the reasons I described to be ignored on a discussion thread on this topic. It might seem curmudgeonly to mention these problems, but not to mention them would be irresponsible after all that has happened to these cities in recent years.
square.
Sep 30, 22 3:30 pm
let them learn the lesson for themselves then- you've made your point with a cheeky (but vapid) answer. the fact is they are still interested, and are incredibly unlikely to change their mind based on anonymous trolls. so move on?
ArchKid
Oct 4, 22 2:02 am
Well its been 2 years since I made this post. I can confirm I made it to SoCal with a really good salary. I did learn my lesson, I should have moved here earlier. Welcome to my TedTalk.
natematt
Oct 4, 22 11:47 am
This seems like sort of a weird criticism considering all other things equal, NYC and LA are the largest job markets in the country. And at least in my observation this seems even more true for architecture. I grew up and went to school in the Midwest. When I graduated, there were more job opportunities coming out of LA or NYC each than probably the entire region. I like Chicago, but there were probably 10x as many job openings in LA.
Boston was pretty busy at the time though too... cost of rent was actually worse though, did a couple interviews there.
Chad Miller
Oct 4, 22 12:46 pm
I found the same. The cost of living was incredibly higher though. After doing some math I determined that I had more disposable income staying in the midwest.
Recently graduated with M.Arch. Have about 5 years of professional experience at architectural firms. I want to choose between New York city vs Los Angeles to live and work at. Single person.
Let me hear some of your thoughts about the 2 cities?
LA is cheaper and will be warmer for the next 5 months...
LA over NY any day. Shouldn't you let the job offer lead you if you have such flexibility? These major cities are very competitive both market wise and culturally. I would even go for 2nd tier city if the firm/job is better. Just my 2 cents. Also consider if you have relatives on east or west side. It will help when you need them or even just get together during holidays.
I've lived in both cities and love them both. Ultimately it will come down to what kind of lifestyle you want.
LA is only slightly cheaper than NYC these days, but in LA you'll have the added expense of owning a car, which will more than eat up any cost of living savings. Be sure to create a realistic budget for each city; you might be surprised which one comes out ahead.
LA has nicer beaches and better tacos, though, so it might be worth it.
Is living in LA without a car a bad idea? If realistically you work close to home?
I guess it depends on where you are, what's within easy walking / biking or transit distance, and what you want to do for fun. It's great if you can commute to/from work without a car, but also keep in mind things like the grocery store, hardware store, the doctor's office, places to eat and drink, etc. And a big part of LA's appeal is being able to get up into the mountains or out to the beach pretty easily. You'll usually need a car for that stuff.
Our public transit is pathetic. There are a few places where you could live, work, and shop within a smaller area, but plan on an hour+ of multiple trains and busses (or an expensive Uber) if you want to see any of the city outside your little pocket of walkable urbanity.
Yeah thats one of the biggest turn off about LA. Unless I'm making 6 figures, I don't think I can live that comfortable lifestyle. Most firms in NY are located in Manhattan, and living there is another whole story. There are def a lot of pros and cons in both cities.
.
"Work close to home in LA", HAHAHAHAHAHA!
curious to see what the change in compensation is between a fresh (online) M.arch grad in toronto to one in NY or LA.
I lived without a car for almost 6 years in LA. It definitely depends on where you live/work/entertain yourself. Most people in LA are loathe to cross town unless we absolutely have to, as it is.The East side is near downtown and all the metro lines converge downtown so if you choose DTLA or the East Side you have access to a lot, but again that depends on where exactly you end up. The West side is its own thing anyway. I don't think most people on the West side come downtown or to the Eastside unless they have to.I think that would be more of a challenge to live car free but there is a lot of dining and entertainment on the West side too, so it just depends on how much of a fit you are for your neighborhood.
stay single whichever city you choose.
noted
Counterpoint - 2 incomes really help in higher cost-of-living cities, but DON'T have kids.
It's even cheaper to kill yourself. And if city won't be able to identify your body, they'll have to bury you for free
wait 5 days and see if it's still a place you want to move to.
*which one is still standing
I honestly wouldn't recommend either. I've lived most of my life in the LA area, but unless one is already connected with family, social circles, etc. it can be a harsh experience. If I were starting out fresh, I'd aim for "2nd tier" cities - Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, etc. Cost of living is lower, stress is lower, and you'll generally find just as much "culture" as you would in LA, San Francisco, Chicago (probably somewhat less than NYC, though). My one sojourn outside LA was in Minneapolis for about 5 years, and I loved it (winters can be a bit much for some people though). I've also spent significant time visiting Seattle, and would move there in a heartbeat if I had a good job offer (or, better yet, Vancouver, BC).
Chicago is cheaper to live in than Seattle and Portland these days. Minneapolis seems to have the same rent prices as Chicago now. Philly is good if you want to live on the East Coast and still be 90 min to NYC.
Not Vancouver ..... don't go I hear it sucks!
I'm totally ready to Californicate Vancouver at the first opportunity.
Wednesday???
Vancouver is the closest thing to LA vibe Canada has
LA =\= Vancouver. Not even close.
Don't tell all those folks in Kitsilano, they think they're living in Venice Beach!
haha I actually visited vancouver couple months ago. I can tell why they think its venice.
"Vancouver is the closest thing to LA vibe Canada has"
Gawd, I hope not - Vancouverites have my deepest sympathy if that's true.
nothing wrong with that. Vancouver has the warmest (mildest) average weather in all of Canada. Even that, compared to LA, its still pretty cold. It doesn't have the nightlife of LA either. But just in terms of mountains, beach, views. Thats how Im comparing it to LA
I agree w David. Depends on what lifestyle you're looking for. I'm in NYC and I moved here from the SF Bay Area. When I get older I may consider moving back, probably to the East Bay. I'm a single woman in early 30s... still prefer NYC.
Currently with the pandemic you're still paying the cost to live in NY without all of the world class things to do that make it worth it. Now that the cold weather is here, there really isn't anything to do...
I still do the things I enjoyed doing. I love the diversity here. There is something unique about this city which I have not felt anywhere else. I have a simple lifestyle. I work hard and enjoy training thai boxing. My gym is now open, w all the safety precautions in place. Staying safe, working hard, training hard :)
which state elected a body builder as governor?
Yep nyc is terrible. Definitely go somewhere else. Nothing to see here
it’s funny always those discussions about LA vs NY, there’s literally an entire country in between that’s being ignored, kind of explains the state your country is in...that said, NY no doubt.
And the area in between is far more livable and less annoying
LA no doubt, but dont pretend you can do it without a car.
Graduated in NYC, Interned and started post-grad here, so I really have no idea what it would be like if I wasn't here. My opinion of NYC is:
- Not needing a car is super nice. I cannot imagine owning a car (paying insurance, maintanence) to be able to live fully. It is just such a hassle in my mind. But I get the freedom of owning it however.
- I can cycle anywhere, as long as I am going less than 13mi away, bicycle would be comparable or considerably faster commute.
- Just pleasant to walk to favourite restaurant, cycle to a nice park, subway to a musical.
- If you don't have rich parents, and want to actually save some of your earnings, I guess you just have to have roommates until marraige or live in dangerous neighbourhoods. But I do not get the fuss of 5 storey walk-ups, etc etc... unless you are like 50. Laundromat experience sucks, but you get used to it.
- the density of the city does wear me out sometimes though. I noticed this especially when I visited Seattle. Just needed a reminder that cities do not have to be so loud and crowded. As a person who hates night life, NYC sucks sometimes.
-homelessness, lack of street etiquettes are also very noticeable.
I keep encountering this fixation on these two cities so much on these forums and I'm asking myself why. I've visited New York and L.A. multiple times and experienced their various neighborhoods each time and the appeal diminishes pretty quickly. Neither of these cities possess the kind of cultural and commercial advantages they once had a few decades ago. You can enjoy a lot of the same amenities and retain more of your income for a more comfortable lifestyle in the so-called "second" and "third tier" cities mentioned above. This has become more evident during the last few years as NY&LA are beset by rising crime and endemic corruption, with neither likely to be adequately addressed for a long time to come.
Neither of these cities possess the kind of cultural and commercial advantages they once had a few decades ago.
this is a wildly exaggerated statement that needs a lot of clarification. say what you will about living in nyc (yes it's hard, yes it's expensive as hell, and certainly not for everyone), but it's one of the capital cities of the world, and for a reason. just because you don't "find the various neighborhoods appealing" (whatever that means) doesn't make your claim accurate.
I question this idea that since NYC is one of the "capital" cities of the world then it's really worth living there. With the onset of globalism, power has been dispersing from the large global cosmopolitan centers to smaller more regional capitals. LA and NYC have lost much of their commercial and cultural clout during the past few decades. The industries that shaped these cities' identities have rapidly been leaving for other more favorable environments (e.g. financial companies relocating to Charlotte, Miami and Dallas; Hollywood migrating to Georgia one blockbuster at a time; Tech establishing new hubs in Salt Lake City, Austin and Raleigh). What these older pedestrian-oriented cities offered was convenient physical proximity to job centers, but since the pandemic the large out-migration of residents to less dense suburbs and smaller cities revealed that many people would rather live elsewhere if given the chance. When work from home finally became viable, and all of a sudden the demand for more offices, a key component of downtowns, is going to inevitably shrink. The spike in crime in these "capital"' cities doesn't help things either. When I wrote that cities such as NY and LA seemed to lose their appeal, I meant that from various scales and locations, both in their commercial cores as well as in their neighborhoods, there seemed to be evidence of neglect and dysfunctional municipal services. Brooklyn and Queens might have their charm, but they are saddled with decaying built fabric and crumbling infrastructure that makes these places far from world class. Manhattan still retains an incredible built legacy that makes it stand out among all cities on the globe, but it increasingly becomes a city best enjoyed for visiting rather than for living.
LA and NYC have lost much of their commercial and cultural clout during the past few decades
where is your evidence on this? tech has a huge presence that is growing in nyc, alongside traditional financial markets which are so obvious i can't believe i need to say it. sure things are shifting but some of the most important cultural institutions are still here (broadway, museums, etc etc etc etc..)
Manhattan still retains an incredible built legacy that makes it stand out among all cities on the globe
my point is proven, thanks.
I was born and lived on NY until I was in my mid 20’s. Walked home through the worst neighborhoods at 2am when crime was way higher than now. I would not feel safe in a crowded city with my kids now. Last time I visited it was nerve racking to be in the subways with an infant. Not only the crime, but the potential for terrorism, pandemics, natural disasters… I was there during 9-11. I could see the smoke stack from my house. After that, my opinion of dense urban environments as a place that I wanted to live changed. It’s a great place to grow up. It’s a great place to live when you are single. The dynamic changes when you have a family to worry about. I know that statistically it’s safe, but there is a claustrophobic nature to nyc that becomes overwhelming for some folks. I remember as a kid feeling overwhelmed by the noise and lights. And I was born there. It’s not for everyone.
i'm sorry you live in so much fear- nyc is still a wonderful place to visit and live. i can hear the kids in the playground right now. it's a beautiful day.
Wasn't x-jla posting that NYC isn't safe farther up thread? Something about crime being up 40%? Now he says he knows it's safe.
I'm not a fan of living in large metro areas. I don't have to misrepresent their level of safety to justify my personal preferences. I've been to many, many, huge metro areas in the US and Europe. I was uneasy because I don't like huge crowds. I never felt unsafe through.
chad imagine people having different preference for how they live, without needing to project those preference onto others?
I know, how weird would that be!?
Chad, you have a very black and white thinking style. Crime is up 30-40%. That’s a fact. That doesn’t automatically make the city “dangerous” in comparison to higher crime cities like Detroit or St Louis. It’s becoming more dangerous for sure. That’s a factual trend based on data. Yes, as a parent I fear for the safety of my offspring. I’m pretty confident in my ability to knock out a crazy subway dweller…I can do much about a more virulent pandemic break out and a govt lockdown if I’m in a crowded city like nyc. I like being closer to the outdoors. That’s my preference, as I clearly stated in the personalized post. I’m not projecting that preference, you are projecting your preference for urbanized areas. As for the crime, that’s not a feeling, it’s a fact based on data as I clearly pointed out.
Especially after the draconian and frivolous lockdowns and mandates in nyc, the failures after failures, lies, hypocrisy, the corruption, the riots…it’s clear to me that densely populated urban areas, especially those run by a certain party, are places where the shit can hit the fan pretty quickly. It’s something to consider strongly of you are considering opening a business that can be shutdown or destroyed, having a family, etc.
The 30-40% number you keep stating isn't correct. Look at the NYC crime data you linked. It's the same data that I'm using.
You said that crime has gone up 30-40% from last year. The data you're providing says that crime has gone up 13 - 32% from July 2022 to August 2022 depending on the type of major crime.
Overall major crimes have gone up 9% from this time last year.
But here is my exact quote from “above”, Chad. “ 30-40% is a lot, but it’s still no where near the levels of the 80’s and early 90’s.”
I think the intelligentsia judge everything by the state of their enclaves, where dogs wear sweaters, and artisanal mayonnaise is sold for 40$ a jar.
See my reply above. You're using a rise in major crime from July to August 2022. Your data is NOT for the major crime rates from this time last year. That's the point that you don't seem to understand.
You are wrong.
https://nypost.com/2022/07/18/major-crime-skyrockets-37-in-nyc-nypd-data-shows/amp/
https://abc7ny.com/amp/new-york-city-crime-statistics-subway/11618737/
No one is reporting anything lower than 30%. Even dnc state media-aka
cnn.
“Overall index crime in New York City increased in July 2022, by 30.5% compared with July 2021 (11,619 v. 8,906). Six of the seven major index-crime categories saw increases, driven by a 40.6% increase in grand larceny (4,588 v. 3,262), a 37.2% increase in robbery (1,730 v. 1,261), and a 25.6% rise in burglary (1,325 v. 1,055).”. This is from the ny.gov site. It’s comparing July 2021-July 2022, but that’s not the big increase. The trend starts in 2019. If we compare the increase over the last 5 years
it’s way higher than 30%.
Look at the NYC crime data page that you linked. It says something different.
I'm not looking at anything but the NYC reported data.
like I said, there were about 500 murders in 2020. In 1990 it was like 2200. There is a rising trend, but it’s still not like it was in 1990. I lived there in 1990. Travel Warnings were issued to tourists. It was “dangerous” for an American city. Not Caracas dangerous, but relatively dangerous.
Look at the NYC crime data from this time last year. I don't care about what happened in the 90's.
xlax, your insecruties are showing. op showed up originally asking about living in la and nyc, and you've gone on a tirade about why YOU don't like nyc and think it's dangerous as someone who hasn't lived there for decades. meanwhile those of us who actually live here have genuine, credible advice to give (all of which has acknowledge that yes indeed there is crime, but it's largely worth it if it's something you want to do). surely if you were in their shoes and an actual sane person, you would listen to the first-person accounts and not those of some loony who left the city literal decades ago and clearly has an agenda and unaddressed neurosis.
for the record, i like spending time in rural areas/outdoors, and completely understand why people choose to live there.
again, i ask you to respond to the original question without bringing up your pet anxieties like "artisanal mayonnaise", which is really just a stand-in for your grievances against coastal liberals: what is the safest big city in the us?
You sound butt hurt that people are noticing rising crime and the failures of liberal policies. How dare they! People are leaving nyc and la for good reasons. It’s overpriced and social decline is obviously expanding. Portland, Seattle, Chicago, SF, are all experiencing decline. Can you guess the common denominator?
And like I said, “dangerous” for 1200.00 a month is acceptable. “Mildly dangerous” for 5000.00 a month is not. For the prices of NYC, I can have a nice place somewhere without people shitting on the sidewalk.
Of the top 20 cities in the US with the most crime per capita, 13/20 cities are in republican run states. Notice a common denominator?
https://worldpopulationreview....
x-jla wrote:
"And like I said, “dangerous” for 1200.00 a month is acceptable. “Mildly dangerous” for 5000.00 a month is not. For the prices of NYC, I can have a nice place somewhere without people shitting on the sidewalk."
Farther up you where saying that NYC was safe. Now you're back to saying it's not not safe? You also said you were worried about terrorism and pandemics but later on lamented the responses to these situations as if NTY was over reaching.
You're contradicting yourself a lot here x-jla.
Well said, x-jla. I understand the romantic aspirations of those who want to move to such vaunted cultural capitals like NYC. I did the same earlier in my career when I worked in Chicago, where I enjoyed the perfect aesthetic lifestyle living in a cute brownstone, taking the El train, walking by landmark buildings on a daily basis by Louis Sullivan, Mies, and SOM while enjoying views of Lake Michigan from the office window. But after a year living there it was clear that it wasn't well suited to my goals of raising a family in comfort and safety, and that was during the "good" days when the mayor was competent and crime was at historic lows. What annoys me is that we have so many threads started by people who committed themselves to live the rough and tumble urban life in an overpriced cultural capital complain about their lives becoming difficult because they don't make enough to enjoy a lifestyle that is really only accessible to the richest.
Chad, this is too hard for you. The nuance is too much. Stop trying to say what I wrote. We can all look and see. One can be concerned with potential future Pandemics that are more virulent, and the over reaching responses we saw to covid. I know it’s hard for you, but one can say that crime rates are rising, and it’s of concern, and simultaneously say that the city is fairly safe relative to other cities and it’s own past rates. We are allowed to do this. It’s called nuance. Nuance is not the same a contradiction.
Of the top 20 cities in the US with the most crime per capita, 13/20 cities are in republican run states. Notice a common denominator?
this should have ended the conversation.. xlax still can't answer the original question of what big city is safer.
What annoys me is that we have so many threads started by people who committed themselves to live the rough and tumble urban life in an overpriced cultural capital complain about their lives becoming difficult because they don't make enough to enjoy a lifestyle that is really only accessible to the richest.
also, what's with the obsession of other people choosing to live in the coastal cities? if you don't want to, great! but op does. you're contributing nothing by airing your personal grievances and obsessing with other people's lifestyles. comment on other threads if it annoys you, but it shouldn't come as any surprise that many architects choose to move to two of the largest cities in the country, where there is a ton of concentrated building, hence jobs.
I don’t care where the op chooses to move. He is asking for opinions. I gave one. None of the above is my answer. You are using 1 metric- safety. I am saying that rising crime is one of many factors to consider. Crime is a proxy for many problems that the city is experiencing. It is in a state if decline. You can choose to move to a very expensive and crowded city, with draconian tendencies, in a state of decline, or a less expensive less crowded city, that is doing well. It’s the op’s choice.
You would have to be a special kind of serf to open a business in a state that is willing to wanton shut you down for months, putting many hard working peoples dress
* dreams out of business. Same time leaving McDonald’s and all the corporate overlords alone. That’s a city that hates its citizens. That’s a city who’s priorities are clear. What kind of stupid person would invest their time and money into such a place?
That's not what you said.
You stated that crime in NYC had gone up 40% and that made the area unsafe. None of that is correct.
You then backpedaled and contradicted yourself when conflicting information disproved your original statement. You didn't post a personal opinion on the living in NYC until after all of the above.
You're now trying to blame the high crime ( or is it the relative safety? ) of NYC on liberal policies and assign malevolent motivation to the government for overreach.
You need to get professional help x-jla. You have some serious mental issues regarding your paranoia and delusions of grandeur.
Crime has gone up 30-40% per the articles and data that I linked. Are they lying? Can you pin point where I contradict myself?
Look at the actual data in the report. The page you're looking at was for July. If you take the data from Sept 21 to Sept 22 the crime rate has gone down putting major crimes around a 12% rise. Also look at the contributing factors to the initial rise in crime rates. Simply look at ALL the data, not just the portions the support your opinions.
Also I like how you're ignoring that you've been contradicting yourself throughout your posts: "NYC isn't safe - just look at the rising crime rate, NYC is safe - it was way worse, NYC isn't safe because of the liberal policies." Make up your mind.
It’s pretty low to make up fake quotes by me when what I actually wrote is all above.
Jla-x “The temperature has been increasing over the last few years because of xyz”. Chad-“is it hot, or is it cold, make up mind you contradicting!” A rising crime rate is an indication that it may be it may soon become “dangerous”. No one said that it is currently “dangerous”- which is a subjective designation. It may seem dangerous to someone coming from Tokyo, but safe to someone coming from Caracas. Crime in nyc is not at the levels that it was in1990, but if the trajectory continues, it can exceed 1990 rates. The policies that contributed to this show no signs of changing. If they do, one can reassess. A reasonable person would take this into consideration when planning a long term decision to live there.
Like I said, crime was a primary concern for people (especially people in less wealthy areas) in the 80’s and 90’s. Why wouldn’t it be? Those concerns are once again becoming a major issue for inhabitants. What is hard to understand?
Square,
Square,
The OP simply asked for advice on where they should move to, NYC or LA. My advice was "neither", and then questioned why young architects were still fixated on this common binary choice when it comes to making such an important move. It might not be the kind of advice that the OP wants to receive, but I've come across way too many fellow professionals who have fled both NYC and LA in recent years for precisely the reasons I described to be ignored on a discussion thread on this topic. It might seem curmudgeonly to mention these problems, but not to mention them would be irresponsible after all that has happened to these cities in recent years.
let them learn the lesson for themselves then- you've made your point with a cheeky (but vapid) answer. the fact is they are still interested, and are incredibly unlikely to change their mind based on anonymous trolls. so move on?
Well its been 2 years since I made this post. I can confirm I made it to SoCal with a really good salary. I did learn my lesson, I should have moved here earlier. Welcome to my TedTalk.
This seems like sort of a weird criticism considering all other things equal, NYC and LA are the largest job markets in the country. And at least in my observation this seems even more true for architecture. I grew up and went to school in the Midwest. When I graduated, there were more job opportunities coming out of LA or NYC each than probably the entire region. I like Chicago, but there were probably 10x as many job openings in LA.
Boston was pretty busy at the time though too... cost of rent was actually worse though, did a couple interviews there.
I found the same. The cost of living was incredibly higher though. After doing some math I determined that I had more disposable income staying in the midwest.