I have been working in the architecture/design industry for a little over 7 years. During this time I have worked for several U.S. firms in different capacities. I would like to get some professional feedback and information on firm job titles and the roles & responsibilities associated with those titles. Since I am considered junior staff (unlicensed) I am trying to understand if their is a standard career development/structure that other firms have used to mentor for growth. For example, the succession of positions. (Intern, Project Coordinator, Project Architect, Project Manager).
SneakyPete
Sep 23, 20 7:31 pm
PM is not more important than PA, no matter how many people in the industry try and shovel that shit.
natematt
Sep 24, 20 11:59 am
PA's often do what people think the PMs are doing anyway.... I think a lot of firms generally acknowledge this in their operational hierarchy's, yet PMs still tend to make more....
Non Sequitur
Sep 23, 20 8:28 pm
working for 7 years yet still considered junior? There is something wrong here.
Everyday Architect
Sep 23, 20 8:28 pm
search the forum, there have been similar threads. Bottom line, there isn’t anything definitive. It depends on the firm.
The link from archinect above really explains it well.
Working for 7 years and still junior? Is it just mentally or responsibility wise? Being unlicensed does not mean you are junior. There are senior level people called "job captain" or "senior designer" that have extensive knowledge and responsibility but does not have license due to various reasons. That job captain title is a wild cat though, I have seen 2 yr experience called job captain, also seen 10+ yr called job captain. The thing is position name does not matter as much, it is what you do and the pay that tells. If you are micromanaged by a licensed professional with small tasks, then you are still junior. If you independently run your project or part of job then you are not really junior.
Also, getting pigeon holed is real. You may be doing same tasks and stuck in the middle tier forever. You can always get a sense whether the firm promotes internal workers or just use employees as tools and just have high turnover.
Chad Miller
Sep 24, 20 10:44 am
To be fair some firms consider all unlicensed architectural staff capable of becoming licensed 'junior'. In my experience this isn't common and it tends to occur in firms with older leadership.
tduds
Sep 24, 20 11:35 am
In my experience "Job Captain" is what you call a PA who isn't licensed. Same basic duties, minus the stamp.
natematt
Sep 24, 20 12:00 pm
^In some firms it's Technical Coordinator.... or even Project manager ;D
Aluminate
Sep 24, 20 11:00 am
No standard path exists. Looking back, some of the best firms to learn from were the ones where the Project Managers had 15 years of experience minimum and the "Project Architect" was always a principal or senior designer who oversaw the entire project and was the primary client-facing contact. But those firms were a little discouraging in the plodding advancement trajectory. On the other hand, the firm where I was a PM with 3 years of experience and everybody with a license was a Project Architect was nice for my ego and resume, and for getting over some fears in a sink-or-swim way, and it was fairly educational about procedural things, but not so much for technical. Job Captain is even worse than PM or PA in terms of any consistency from firm to firm. In some it's a senior person who is the behind-the-scenes in-house twin to the PM, while in other firms it's what fresh grads get promoted to after their first year in a firm, when all they're really captain of is the product library or plotter paper.
Chad Miller
Sep 24, 20 11:07 am
Yeah to me the entire 'job title' thing was always a bit odd. I worked in medium sized firms that didn't have titles unless you where a partner.
Now that I'm out west it's all about the job title.
Intern 1-3
Architect 1-3
Project Architect 1-3
Project Manager
Senior Project Manager
Job Captain - typically used for unlicensed people involved in CA and / or PA duties
Drafter 1-3
kizzy888
Sep 24, 20 11:29 am
Chad, would you say the Job Captain and Project Coordinator titles/roles are synonymous?
Bench
Sep 24, 20 12:19 pm
Chad we also follow the AIA set of titles as well, each level at 1-3, depending on seniority/responsibility/licensure. That's largely internal. Externally to clients we use the more generic Designer / Architect / etc. titles.
SneakyPete
Sep 24, 20 12:21 pm
Where'd ya move to CO from, Chad?
Chad Miller
Sep 24, 20 1:20 pm
MN. First west central then northern.
SneakyPete
Sep 24, 20 1:33 pm
That's BARELY moving West, man! ;)
natematt
Sep 24, 20 12:04 pm
There is a reason why everyone provides an in depth description with their advertisements for jobs....
While I don't think the titles mean much for this reason, it's worth watching out that you avoid places where the title really doesn't seem to align with the description, you wont be happy with that job haha
Jay1122
Sep 24, 20 12:26 pm
That reminds me, a ZGF job post looking for 5 yrs experience, the position title is intern 4. 5 yrs in the profession and still carry intern name is a big no no to me. And it allows 3 yrs exp if you have master degree. Seriously master is not worth 2 yrs of work experience. Both Barch and March students know nothing when they graduate. Some people are licensed already with 5 yrs experience.
thisisnotmyname
Sep 24, 20 1:31 pm
ZGF apparently wants to live the dream of highly experienced people doing the low-level jobs.
Chad Miller
Sep 24, 20 1:56 pm
The worst is when a firm isn't sure what they're looking for. I had an interview with a firm in Colorado Springs. It was advertised as a PA with 2+ years experience. We get though half the interview when the partners say that they really don't need another PA but instead are looking for an experienced PM. I thanked them for their time and told them I didn't have the experience to fill such a role. Wasted both of our time.
Jay1122
Sep 24, 20 2:06 pm
Chad, I am actually interested in the difference between PA and PM. I have not worked for those huge corporate with clear role cuts. I want to know what set them apart so much skill and task wise? I have heard PM is more schedule and fees stuff, PA is more the project design and construction. But I would expect a senior level able to tread in both area thought.
Chad Miller
Sep 24, 20 2:13 pm
There can be a lot of overlap between a PA and PM. Personally I think the only difference is that a PM is also responsible for the design / production schedule (determining and assigning staff hours), ensuring a profit is made on the project, dealing with billing, dealing with pay apps, and QC'ing drawings. Typically the PM is also the one who signs the drawings.
When acting as a PA I've done all of that except the billing side and pay apps. We have the architect who signed the drawings do the pay apps.
That's just my experience with firms in the 10-25 person range. Your results may vary. ;)
SneakyPete
Sep 24, 20 2:27 pm
The PM does everything the job needs that nobody told you about and will probably hate.
Chad Miller
Sep 24, 20 2:42 pm
That too . . .
natematt
Sep 24, 20 8:43 pm
Again, the PM is a really varied title. I know places that use it as a substitution for what people would more often think of as a Job Captain, with an equivalent experience.
Alternately, I know places where a PM is just a glorified paper pusher and client *** kisser.... but is not an architect, and most definitely does not stamp drawings.
Everyday Architect
Sep 24, 20 12:12 pm
There is also this from the AIA. These are the position descriptions they use for their compensation survey and report, though not all positions are represented in the report.
I imagine we can all agree that adding senior to your title is a good thing, especially if you're at a firm that differentiates and has some people at senior already.
From a resume perspective, I answer to principals/owners at my firm now, and sometimes get to have staff help me... so I'd tweak my titles when going for interviews to reflect whatever the firm in question uses
Jay1122
Sep 24, 20 3:22 pm
Ultra Senior Intern 7, hmm yeah. The forever intern that is actually the CEO. That will be my title structure for the organization. My firm motto: "Life is an endless journey of learning, we are all just interns at different levels."
natematt
Sep 24, 20 8:46 pm
It's funny. With architects that means a lot different things than with other fields.
In architecture you might get that sr after 20 years.... in other fields you might get it after 5 haha.
I have been working in the architecture/design industry for a little over 7 years. During this time I have worked for several U.S. firms in different capacities. I would like to get some professional feedback and information on firm job titles and the roles & responsibilities associated with those titles. Since I am considered junior staff (unlicensed) I am trying to understand if their is a standard career development/structure that other firms have used to mentor for growth. For example, the succession of positions. (Intern, Project Coordinator, Project Architect, Project Manager).
PM is not more important than PA, no matter how many people in the industry try and shovel that shit.
PA's often do what people think the PMs are doing anyway.... I think a lot of firms generally acknowledge this in their operational hierarchy's, yet PMs still tend to make more....
working for 7 years yet still considered junior? There is something wrong here.
search the forum, there have been similar threads. Bottom line, there isn’t anything definitive. It depends on the firm.
Check out this series on architecture job titles: https://archinect.com/features/tag/1467627/job-titles
The link from archinect above really explains it well.
Working for 7 years and still junior? Is it just mentally or responsibility wise? Being unlicensed does not mean you are junior. There are senior level people called "job captain" or "senior designer" that have extensive knowledge and responsibility but does not have license due to various reasons. That job captain title is a wild cat though, I have seen 2 yr experience called job captain, also seen 10+ yr called job captain. The thing is position name does not matter as much, it is what you do and the pay that tells. If you are micromanaged by a licensed professional with small tasks, then you are still junior. If you independently run your project or part of job then you are not really junior.
Also, getting pigeon holed is real. You may be doing same tasks and stuck in the middle tier forever. You can always get a sense whether the firm promotes internal workers or just use employees as tools and just have high turnover.
To be fair some firms consider all unlicensed architectural staff capable of becoming licensed 'junior'. In my experience this isn't common and it tends to occur in firms with older leadership.
In my experience "Job Captain" is what you call a PA who isn't licensed. Same basic duties, minus the stamp.
^In some firms it's Technical Coordinator.... or even Project manager ;D
No standard path exists. Looking back, some of the best firms to learn from were the ones where the Project Managers had 15 years of experience minimum and the "Project Architect" was always a principal or senior designer who oversaw the entire project and was the primary client-facing contact. But those firms were a little discouraging in the plodding advancement trajectory. On the other hand, the firm where I was a PM with 3 years of experience and everybody with a license was a Project Architect was nice for my ego and resume, and for getting over some fears in a sink-or-swim way, and it was fairly educational about procedural things, but not so much for technical. Job Captain is even worse than PM or PA in terms of any consistency from firm to firm. In some it's a senior person who is the behind-the-scenes in-house twin to the PM, while in other firms it's what fresh grads get promoted to after their first year in a firm, when all they're really captain of is the product library or plotter paper.
Yeah to me the entire 'job title' thing was always a bit odd. I worked in medium sized firms that didn't have titles unless you where a partner.
Now that I'm out west it's all about the job title.
Intern 1-3
Architect 1-3
Project Architect 1-3
Project Manager
Senior Project Manager
Job Captain - typically used for unlicensed people involved in CA and / or PA duties
Drafter 1-3
Chad, would you say the Job Captain and Project Coordinator titles/roles are synonymous?
Chad we also follow the AIA set of titles as well, each level at 1-3, depending on seniority/responsibility/licensure. That's largely internal. Externally to clients we use the more generic Designer / Architect / etc. titles.
Where'd ya move to CO from, Chad?
MN. First west central then northern.
That's BARELY moving West, man! ;)
There is a reason why everyone provides an in depth description with their advertisements for jobs....
While I don't think the titles mean much for this reason, it's worth watching out that you avoid places where the title really doesn't seem to align with the description, you wont be happy with that job haha
That reminds me, a ZGF job post looking for 5 yrs experience, the position title is intern 4. 5 yrs in the profession and still carry intern name is a big no no to me. And it allows 3 yrs exp if you have master degree. Seriously master is not worth 2 yrs of work experience. Both Barch and March students know nothing when they graduate. Some people are licensed already with 5 yrs experience.
ZGF apparently wants to live the dream of highly experienced people doing the low-level jobs.
The worst is when a firm isn't sure what they're looking for. I had an interview with a firm in Colorado Springs. It was advertised as a PA with 2+ years experience. We get though half the interview when the partners say that they really don't need another PA but instead are looking for an experienced PM. I thanked them for their time and told them I didn't have the experience to fill such a role. Wasted both of our time.
Chad, I am actually interested in the difference between PA and PM. I have not worked for those huge corporate with clear role cuts. I want to know what set them apart so much skill and task wise? I have heard PM is more schedule and fees stuff, PA is more the project design and construction. But I would expect a senior level able to tread in both area thought.
There can be a lot of overlap between a PA and PM. Personally I think the only difference is that a PM is also responsible for the design / production schedule (determining and assigning staff hours), ensuring a profit is made on the project, dealing with billing, dealing with pay apps, and QC'ing drawings. Typically the PM is also the one who signs the drawings.
When acting as a PA I've done all of that except the billing side and pay apps. We have the architect who signed the drawings do the pay apps.
That's just my experience with firms in the 10-25 person range. Your results may vary. ;)
The PM does everything the job needs that nobody told you about and will probably hate.
That too . . .
Again, the PM is a really varied title. I know places that use it as a substitution for what people would more often think of as a Job Captain, with an equivalent experience.
Alternately, I know places where a PM is just a glorified paper pusher and client *** kisser.... but is not an architect, and most definitely does not stamp drawings.
There is also this from the AIA. These are the position descriptions they use for their compensation survey and report, though not all positions are represented in the report.
https://www.aia.org/best-pract...
I imagine we can all agree that adding senior to your title is a good thing, especially if you're at a firm that differentiates and has some people at senior already.
From a resume perspective, I answer to principals/owners at my firm now, and sometimes get to have staff help me... so I'd tweak my titles when going for interviews to reflect whatever the firm in question uses
Ultra Senior Intern 7, hmm yeah. The forever intern that is actually the CEO. That will be my title structure for the organization. My firm motto: "Life is an endless journey of learning, we are all just interns at different levels."
It's funny. With architects that means a lot different things than with other fields.
In architecture you might get that sr after 20 years.... in other fields you might get it after 5 haha.