i know you'd like to think your shit don't stank but lean a little bit closer see that roses really smell like poo-poo-hoo
so where'd the 'roses' in the garden go? what happened?
randomised
Aug 30, 20 3:34 pm
the winter prune!
randomised
Aug 31, 20 4:04 am
That’s a synecnym or metodouche obviously! I think...
randomised
Sep 1, 20 9:43 am
Not talking to myself, comments or users got pruned.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 30, 20 5:01 pm
synecdouche - (noun) Einstein Landscapers, often of Danish descent trying to pass as Germans, (verb) to troll intellectual spam trolls, also known as a performance in trolling.
justavisual
Aug 31, 20 7:38 am
Guys, we've been censored! I'm having flashbacks to stories from my parents formerly communist homeland...
...if you are not with them, you are against them ...you do not belong ....if you do not conform, you are eliminated ....& your family too, no job, no school ...."enemy of the people"
...everybody has to say only what "communist party" permits ...you cannot trust even your family, because they can report on you ...every apartment building has informer, spying on you ...you have personal file from starting school, for life, listing your "party devotion"
Can you imagine yourself in that chair? I'm glad we can all still express our opinions!
Remember this kind of shit is always around the corner. Better be careful which path you take....think hard.
b3tadine[sutures]
Aug 31, 20 8:24 am
Relax, Kyle, this is a Wendy's, not the fucking Trump CDC. Why is so fucking difficult.
b3tadine[sutures]
Aug 31, 20 8:47 am
""...everybody has to say only what "communist party" permits
...you cannot trust even your family, because they can report on you
...every apartment building has informer, spying on you
...you have personal file from starting school, for life, listing your "party devotion"""
You understand that this is happening right now, under the current administration. Right?
justavisual
Aug 31, 20 9:02 am
Yeah and its happening right here on this forum, so lets start there since its in the "black and white". You are so blinded by affiliation you don't even see common sense anymore. We were having a lively discussion, which clearly someone didn't agree with. I don't even support Trump and never have...but its nice that this is the direct conclusion you draw...each and every time bringing it back to that. Proving exactly what is wrong with the USA at this very moment. Its not about Trump, its about how you guys cannot have a conversation anymore without resorting to calling each other stupid, or racist or "nazi" I think it was ...
b3tadine[sutures]
Aug 31, 20 1:38 pm
Hey. What part of my comment did you not understand? Was it the fact that this is a Wendy's? Or was it the fact that this is not governmental agency, oppressing your speech rights? Where in those two statements did I state you are magakkklan? Are you a snowflake, and just the mention of Trump clamping down on speech has your panties twisted? What is it?
SneakyPete
Aug 31, 20 11:41 am
Whining in two separate places about a private company doing what they want. You guys suck at being "libertarians."
Non Sequitur
Aug 31, 20 11:55 am
I’m on vacation, did I miss a dumpster fire?
SneakyPete
Aug 31, 20 12:01 pm
I don't know. Seems there was a bunch of news comments nuked. I have noted this happening, but generally consider the news pages fair game for comment deletion, as they're the more legitimate, public-facing portion of this site.
for the record I am one of the two (2) thumbs up. thanks for the link, they kept the fun stuff, not the real crit stuff. I spam anything that gets irrelvantly political, my bad....normal people though are boring from what I can.
randomised
Aug 31, 20 4:15 pm
SneakyPete, you’re whining in two places about people whining ;-)
SneakyPete
Aug 31, 20 4:19 pm
I'm aware of my irony. Are you?
Dangermouse
Aug 31, 20 7:15 pm
This sucks. No one talks about landscape architecture. Then, someone wants to start up a discussion, and the conversation gets nuked. I for one think her thesis is wrong; the garden has one (1!!) remaining plant from the original installation and the landscape architects were trying to restore the vision/aesthetic of the original planting, not erase it. But of course we can't have nice things in 2020, what with civility and respect being the sine qua non of rational discourse. Thanks, trolls, for pissing on the roses
justavisual
Sep 1, 20 12:01 pm
If you wanna talk landscape I'll gladly do it with you!
awaiting_deletion
Sep 3, 20 7:52 am
Start a thread, that's what forums are for. You're posting anonymously, how hard can it be to start a conversation about something you want to discuss? Fear of what - Internet Rejection, Trolls...It's literally words on a screen, NOT REAL, up to you to accept it or not. Go ahead, make that step and start a landscape thread, one with PRECISE language ;)
awaiting_deletion
Aug 31, 20 8:03 pm
Preface:
Archinect's decision to remove all comments makes sense and the spam troll point is as follows (section 1). There is history as I understand it where posts like that attract incels living in their basement, apparently and archinect gets bombarded by more than just US.
I've written this in simple intellectual terms and not heavily loaded poetical statements to clarify.
There are other traditions, even in this country. There is a phrase I have been grappling with between disciplines in the humanities for sometime-- “the Black radical tradition.” This phrase falls apart when you bring it into architecture -- it deflates into nothing or it explodes the terms of the discipline. I, of course, prefer the latter, but I’ve been forcing myself to grapple with that deflation, that erasure, that void in the histories or practices, as well.
In my usual manner I asked why, but no response. I don't expect many people to respond to me under my "performance" text the Dangermouse noticed. Was I really the cause of the deletion?
1 - Initiation of Performance (Trolling)
The blog post was clear in its intention and the first comments, and many that follow took objection to the post through what amounted to technical landscape-speak. This effectively negated the posts analogy, purposes, etc...deflating any counterargument, nullify it's qualification simply through the language and technical alone.
Paragraph one is a caricature of English people talking to Americans. Saying seemingly nice things why calling them idiots. Whether Justavisual or Dangermouse intentionally decided to critique the blog with absolute clear and factual technical landscape language to disagree with the blogs analysis on landscaping or whether the intent was to stop the entire argument from the start based on technicalities, they can defend themselves. In other words, the entire blog post, its intent can be discounted because of the technical was incorrect.
Paragraph two, but what if we use words people do not commonly use, will the argument deflate as quickly? Will using a different cultural perspective make the same point or even convey the point. I would suggest it does not. So the paradox, to express the failure or systemic issues in a system one must use that systems language, allowing those who are more "expert in the language" to create a method to discount any further thought on the subject. Eric Weinstein was referenced, see his opinion on academia for further clarification. To shut people out - make sure they cannot speak your language.
Not screenshotted, I then link RATM lead singer speaking with Chomsky...RATM most associated with George Orwell's quote "Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” Or, those who control the language of say Landscaping control the discussion. The trolling text references back to the English - talks about all the Gaelic sub-cultures of Britain and lands on the French being the only ones with any counter argument. If you're familiar with counter-arugments to society currently, you will know most of them come from the French. The rest of the trolling, assuming that's what you want to call it, is on same topic, but to answers a tweet - the entire discussion is still very "white" European, all I did was compare European cultures and to avoid writing more - just familiarize yourself with the speeches of Russel Means.
So whether Justavisual, Dangermouse, and all those who piled on were using their expert knowledge in Landscaping to contradict the blog's argument in what I call the English manner of lieing through their teeth or were just making factual statements - I leave that up to you to decide. My suggestion is speak in another language to really make a point or carry-on the French work of Foucalt, Derrica, and Deleuze...
- DTL.DWG (it's in the details)
Dangermouse
Sep 1, 20 8:57 am
All I'm going to say here is that I am reminded of Anita Berrizbeitia's first lecture at the GSD after being appointed chair of the LA department: Landscape Architecture is a discipline born from the sciences and reading precision is a valid method of critique.
Dangermouse
Sep 1, 20 8:58 am
I'm not reading 250 page National Parks Service reports on the rose garden because I'm a pedantic white supremacist Trump supporter but because I am curious, it interests me, and when my profession gets national news coverage I want to participate in the discussion, because we so rarely get any discussion at all.
Dangermouse
Sep 1, 20 9:03 am
Mitch is a fierce intellect and certainly not lazy, and I don't expect her to perform a full academic review for a blog post, but I am saddened and disappointed to be written off as a lazy racist Trump bot because I defended a small garden renovation by his stockholm syndromed wife.
awaiting_deletion
Sep 1, 20 9:05 am
at least you're thinking about the problem (paragraph 2 and 3). below I think you may have made an assumption, I might be wrong. perspectives are a funny thing. I also apologize for calling you a "dumbass", I'm sure you're not, it was fun while it lasted....but after you rid all the precise language would the blog post still be of interest or valid? (this is my whole Eric Weinstein reference, I see academia as insulated in-crowd who protects each other very well)
One final thought--thank god i post anonymously. I re-read Mitch's twitter thread and it freaks me out. I know Mark and Gina but I don't know Mitch. I don't think I was commenting outside of the boundaries of professional discourse. But, as a young academic, the thought that I could get cancelled because a Princeton professor calls me racist for the crime of being curious about a project and doing some reading before formulating my own conclusions...well I had trouble sleeping last night.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 9:43 am
I'm not sure where you were called a Trump bot.
randomised
Sep 1, 20 9:44 am
Stay strong Dangermouse!
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 9:53 am
Danger, Mitch was referred to as "lazy", a clown, and called Eminem? The last one, I'm going to need someone to explain that to me...
With the exception of Mitch, Chris, and myself, everyone else is anonymous, and those doing the race baiting, are also anonymous.
awaiting_deletion
Sep 1, 20 10:59 am
I've suggested this before, but perhaps for features and blogs (I think the blogger should regulate personally) do a little more like reddit or something (there's some term for a whole bunch of people getting together and crowding some thread, can't remember) a little more heavily regulated perhahs...also did I miss something Sunday morning?
awaiting_deletion
Sep 1, 20 11:00 am
also, Dangermouse, since you continue to engage that's very different, even if anonymous, we can remember your intentions versus what I thought was "lieing through their teeth"
randomised
Sep 1, 20 1:46 pm
Funny how anonymity is now again being used as some kind of argument of validity of who is saying something not what is being said, ergo cancel culture in a nutshell... if all is lost and you have nothing to add or say just use the anonymity-Godwin! +1 for b3ta!
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 1:50 pm
Cancel culture is not real.
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 2:25 pm
It’s real, real legal, and also real dumb. But in America you can be dumb! Yay for liberty!
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 2:55 pm
Cancel culture is a branding of a phenomenon that has always happened. This is done in order to weaponize it. Just like every other buzzword that comes from the troll armies of the internet, when it's used the conversation that might have happened is dead on arrival.
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 2:57 pm
It hasn’t always existed to this degree or sensitivity, or gone as far back in time. How tf aren’t the Dem party canceled yet? They were the party of the kkk.
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 2:59 pm
Selective outrage is the weaponization..not outrage per se.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 3:03 pm
what the stupid Dutchman is not getting, is that no one is getting fired, for beating on racists. No one is getting fired for posting foul-mouthed comments, but you will get fired for being a racist. perhaps what you fear is your associations with racists, you should. this ain't the 1950s or 60s where you get to hate on Black people with impunity, now, you going to pay for your Red Klan Hat association, and for that I'm comforted.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 3:06 pm
X, do you need American history explained?
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 3:09 pm
But but but, every thing is/can be racist now, including capitalism, and the left controls what’s “racist”. What a powerful weapon. It’s like “your it infinity” when playing tag as a kid.
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 3:10 pm
Are black trump supporters racist too?
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 3:20 pm
^yep
Capitalism is racist now?
Always.
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 3:28 pm
You ain’t black if you don’t vote Democrat, even though Dems have run black cities into the ground for over 50 years. Sounds like...I dunno...institutionalized racism maybe?
randomised
Sep 1, 20 3:29 pm
b3ta, anonymity is not because racists are afraid of the consequences of their racism, it is because of stupid morons like you and how you respond to people for not agreeing with you for the full 100%...your shirt is so brown already, but all you do is add shit to the washer, Eisenman could write a thesis about your architecture...
justavisual
Sep 1, 20 3:37 pm
watching from across the pond like you randomised I think we just have a different perspective that cannot be translated to the people who are "in the midst" of it all. the glory of the US system in two parties was that its always been roughly 50/50 and the transition of power from one "side" to the other prevented extremes. But now that both sides have become extreme in their own ways the swings are much harder for the other 50% to handle each time...
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 3:42 pm
^perfect analysis
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 3:42 pm
jla, you're so focused on what you perceive to be other people's blind spots they have left you with massive blind spots of your own. You have no interest in empathy or introspection, only on being brutally, unapologetically right, with no interest in questioning whether you actually ARE.
justavisual
Sep 1, 20 3:46 pm
...and i want to emphasize I'm talking only about the political system, not the gap vs rich/poor or the historical racial issues...which are also happening independent of the "party affiliation" discussion... Race and class do not always indicate which party you support or why...or to what extreme you may show that support.
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 3:48 pm
jav, I find it difficult to trust your assurances considering you've clicked the thumbs up on so many posts that I find extremely problematic.
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 3:49 pm
To focus on the idea that Dems and Repubs are EQUALLY BAD enables and forgives the extreme moves the Repubs are making RIGHT NOW in order to score cheap populist points on a forum.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 4:06 pm
This so-called "extreme left" is not in power, will never attain that power, however Trump and his racists, make Wallace look like a fucking Saint. I'm voting for Biden, I wanted Warren, does anyone believe they are Marxists? Are they advocating for kids in cages, pushing the nihilism, and anarchists on the left? Really? Is that really happening? Fucking Trump and everyone voting for him are stoking racist trolls, creating gofundme for white nationalist murderers, and we're supposed to do what exactly? Take it? Fffffuck you. When this chapter is written, if tog maga still breathe in 30-40 years, you will be outed for the racist cuck fetishists you are.
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 6:48 pm
Would have voted Tulsi Gabbard, but then DNC forced Biden and Harris upon the population...and it’s them or you’re a racist, so I’ll just draw a veiny dick on the ballot and call it a day.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 9:15 pm
^^^this right here! It's genius!
Orhan Ayyüce
Sep 1, 20 2:22 pm
The real power of Mitch's blogpost surfaces if you read it in the light of former first lady symbolizing something by planting vegetables, I did. That way it brings Hamptons' wealth vs. against 99% and volumes of societal issues, history, and and and... In it, with what and which you identify is up to you. As simple as that.
I've found justvisual's first post very informative and beautifully competent but the blogpost is talking about and confronting something else. Why don't you discuss that?
justavisual
Sep 1, 20 3:08 pm
I'm just gonna stick my head back in here again. My main initial reaction was mostly on the one-sidedness of the original post and the manner in which some sentences were written. I tried to point out that there are technical aspects to the executed design which serve to solve longstanding problems and are not meant to be political but in this case are interpreted/presented as such. The design might have been overseen by the first lady, but was made by 2 different landscape offices in collaboration, and all decisions were carefully studied by a large board of experts, approved in the context of the historical report, and alternatives prepared after rounds upon rounds of revisions (which you're welcome to read in the public documents if you want to know all the "technical" stuff that goes into landscape). I agree that there are substantially more shrubs than before, but I can also understand the reasoning behind them and I don't take offense in the use of 'shrubbery' in design, because it is a long standing tradition with the power to create beautiful spaces. Landscape is meant to evoke emotion and show mans power over nature (or man over man as this interpretation goes) among other things like just being pretty to look at and functional to use. Only time will tell how successful this design really was. But in any case, it has more roses now than it did before (among other things like paving and shrubs).
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 3:14 pm
Yeah, but where they white roses? Thats racist!
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 3:19 pm
^this right here! It's genius.
justavisual
Sep 1, 20 3:39 pm
And unfortunately Orhan no one seems to want to have that discussion...
x-jla
Sep 1, 20 2:23 pm
wow. What tf did I miss?
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 2:54 pm
nothing. you missed nothing.
Non Sequitur
Sep 1, 20 6:29 pm
I think there was a slight disagreement on some recent Guy Fieri cooking show.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 1, 20 3:14 pm
Funny how anonymity is now again being used as some kind of argument of validity of who is saying something not what is being said, ergo cancel culture in a nutshell... if all is lost and you have nothing to add or say just use the anonymity-Godwin! +1 for b3ta!
Now, you seem to be suggesting, that the anonymous, racist comments are bad? Then we're in agreement then?
I stand by my comments. Non-racists, or even anti-racists, would have a problem with my characterization, it's not even fringe. The only people with a problem are racists. But you racist Trumpers won't do anything about it, you're racists, and racists are lazy, sloth like, non-mask wearing idiots.
randomised
Sep 1, 20 3:38 pm
What racist comments are you referring to?
randomised
Sep 1, 20 3:39 pm
You sound a lot like GW “if you’re not with us you’re against us” Bush...nice role models you have(!)
SneakyPete
Sep 1, 20 4:45 pm
You don't have the grounds to pretend to be the adult in the room, Richard Balkins of Astoria, Oregon.
randomised
Sep 2, 20 5:35 am
Poor!
randomised
Sep 2, 20 5:35 am
*Poof!
awaiting_deletion
Sep 1, 20 7:31 pm
this format works too you know.
Blog post here or News post here
Go discuss there - in the forum.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 11:07 am
I read that controversial blog. Missed the debate because I was off designing landscapes. My take...1) If you want to make anything into a matter of racism, and are limber enough to do some logical gymnastics, it’s pretty easy. 2) if the exact same garden was designed by a POC who's not part of the trump admin the blog wouldn’t have been written, or would have been positive. 3) Melania comes from the fashion and modeling world, so her sensibilities of style are different than someone who’s spent a life in politics or law. That was completely overlooked. To me it looks more hi-design arch mag material, not necessarily better or worse. If that’s racist, then every architecture mag is racist. I read a convincing article that pbj sandwich’s are racist once. Then I made a pbj sandwich because they are not racist, and they are delicious. Not a single human, unless they are academics will look at that space and interpret it as racism. They will think it’s either “nice” or “boring”. That’s the level of design interpretation that the average person has. Delicious or yucky. That’s it.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 11:11 am
It would have been funny to do a blind taste test of the garden with academics...half would be told it was designed by a trump, half will be told it was done by a POC Democratic. The results would be hilarious.
SneakyPete
Sep 2, 20 12:07 pm
Please define racism without using a dictionary.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 12:37 pm
A person or system that treats one differently based on immutable racial characteristics.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 12:37 pm
Notice “differently” not specifically “unfairly”....
SneakyPete
Sep 2, 20 12:57 pm
I'll stick to asking you to define the foundational phrases in the portions of your worldview I do not understand in one thread.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 7:03 pm
Gardens cannot be racist, but cutting down trees is lazy. Not sure why the redesign removed the trees. I don’t like that part of it. Other than that, pretty meh garden.
tduds
Sep 2, 20 1:37 pm
I also missed the whole brouhaha but I finally read the piece and, while I don't *entirely* agree, it is a good attempt at analyzing the philosophical / symbolic results (which, even if not intentional, are surely implicit).
Not sure what all the fuss was about.
SneakyPete
Sep 2, 20 2:12 pm
The fuss, as usual, is disguising the forest by discussing the trees individually.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 7:04 pm
Do you really think Melania has the architectural vocabulary and historical knowledge to engineer what the author reverse engineered? I don’t think so
tduds
Sep 2, 20 7:09 pm
I said *implicit*
tduds
Sep 2, 20 7:10 pm
"The White House is transported into these terms of private wealth and seclusion, shrubs from the Hamptons"
...because the current occupants of the white house are incapable of viewing their house as anything but.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 7:46 pm
Oh, ok. Yeah. I don’t disagree.
b3tadine[sutures]
Sep 3, 20 5:06 am
"The project is presented as a “renovation.” It is presented not in terms of a project brief, a program, or any goals related to a national agenda. (The last garden change tied explicitly to a national agenda, of course, being Michelle Obama’s vegetable garden.) "
It seems that people just glossed over this point, and that's my takeaway; the Garden of Michelle Obama, was rooted in a national agenda, this new one is reënactment(?) of a past, and imposing future.
x-jla
Sep 3, 20 10:56 am
I never understood why conservatives got annoyed by Michael Obama’s vegetable garden. That was very juvenile and dumb- “I don’t want broccoli wahhh I want chicken nuggets!” Erasing her garden was a shitty passive aggressive move. I get that part. I just don’t understand why shrub gardens are a symbol of white supremacy, because they are not. The formal nature of the garden, with the manicured shrubs may be perceived as symbolic of authoritarianism. Someone once said that “a lawn is nature under totalitarianism”....forget who? Anyway, I think she is correct that it feels more dystopian than the former garden, I think she is wrong that this equates to white supremacy. The dystopian vision that the ruling class has is not rooted in race. Racial tension is simply a means to divide us while they pillage our liberties and resources. Why would a megalomaniac (most political elites Dems included too) only want to oppress 13% of the population? That’s soooo 1850 bro. They want to oppress all of us! That’s my main point that you’re all missing-Stop taking the racial division bait, and come together!
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 7:44 pm
Should have voted for Gary Johnson, this could have been the garden.
x-jla
Sep 2, 20 7:45 pm
* You should have voted for Gary Johnson, this could have been the garden
SneakyPete
Sep 2, 20 7:57 pm
What would Trump's nickname for Gary Johnson be, do you think?
Great tune, Outkast!
i know you'd like to think your shit don't stank
but lean a little bit closer
see that roses really smell like poo-poo-hoo
so where'd the 'roses' in the garden go? what happened?
the winter prune!
That’s a synecnym or metodouche obviously! I think...
Not talking to myself, comments or users got pruned.
synecdouche - (noun) Einstein Landscapers, often of Danish descent trying to pass as Germans, (verb) to troll intellectual spam trolls, also known as a performance in trolling.
Guys, we've been censored! I'm having flashbacks to stories from my parents formerly communist homeland...
...if you are not with them, you are against them
...you do not belong
....if you do not conform, you are eliminated
....& your family too, no job, no school
...."enemy of the people"
...everybody has to say only what "communist party" permits
...you cannot trust even your family, because they can report on you
...every apartment building has informer, spying on you
...you have personal file from starting school, for life, listing your "party devotion"
Can you imagine yourself in that chair?
I'm glad we can all still express our opinions!
Remember this kind of shit is always around the corner. Better be careful which path you take....think hard.
Relax, Kyle, this is a Wendy's, not the fucking Trump CDC. Why is so fucking difficult.
""...everybody has to say only what "communist party" permits
...you cannot trust even your family, because they can report on you
...every apartment building has informer, spying on you
...you have personal file from starting school, for life, listing your "party devotion"""
You understand that this is happening right now, under the current administration. Right?
Yeah and its happening right here on this forum, so lets start there since its in the "black and white". You are so blinded by affiliation you don't even see common sense anymore. We were having a lively discussion, which clearly someone didn't agree with. I don't even support Trump and never have...but its nice that this is the direct conclusion you draw...each and every time bringing it back to that. Proving exactly what is wrong with the USA at this very moment. Its not about Trump, its about how you guys cannot have a conversation anymore without resorting to calling each other stupid, or racist or "nazi" I think it was ...
Hey. What part of my comment did you not understand? Was it the fact that this is a Wendy's? Or was it the fact that this is not governmental agency, oppressing your speech rights? Where in those two statements did I state you are magakkklan? Are you a snowflake, and just the mention of Trump clamping down on speech has your panties twisted? What is it?
Whining in two separate places about a private company doing what they want. You guys suck at being "libertarians."
I’m on vacation, did I miss a dumpster fire?
I don't know. Seems there was a bunch of news comments nuked. I have noted this happening, but generally consider the news pages fair game for comment deletion, as they're the more legitimate, public-facing portion of this site.
We removed all the comments from Mitch's recent blog post. You can also read about it on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mitchmcewen/status/1300115772199575552
for the record I am one of the two (2) thumbs up. thanks for the link, they kept the fun stuff, not the real crit stuff. I spam anything that gets irrelvantly political, my bad....normal people though are boring from what I can.
SneakyPete, you’re whining in two places about people whining ;-)
I'm aware of my irony. Are you?
This sucks. No one talks about landscape architecture. Then, someone wants to start up a discussion, and the conversation gets nuked. I for one think her thesis is wrong; the garden has one (1!!) remaining plant from the original installation and the landscape architects were trying to restore the vision/aesthetic of the original planting, not erase it. But of course we can't have nice things in 2020, what with civility and respect being the sine qua non of rational discourse. Thanks, trolls, for pissing on the roses
If you wanna talk landscape I'll gladly do it with you!
Start a thread, that's what forums are for. You're posting anonymously, how hard can it be to start a conversation about something you want to discuss? Fear of what - Internet Rejection, Trolls...It's literally words on a screen, NOT REAL, up to you to accept it or not. Go ahead, make that step and start a landscape thread, one with PRECISE language ;)
Preface:
Archinect's decision to remove all comments makes sense and the spam troll point is as follows (section 1). There is history as I understand it where posts like that attract incels living in their basement, apparently and archinect gets bombarded by more than just US.
I've written this in simple intellectual terms and not heavily loaded poetical statements to clarify.
In a recent post by Mitch, it was written-
There are other traditions, even in this country. There is a phrase I
have been grappling with between disciplines in the humanities for
sometime-- “the Black radical tradition.” This phrase falls apart when
you bring it into architecture -- it deflates into nothing or it
explodes the terms of the discipline. I, of course, prefer the latter,
but I’ve been forcing myself to grapple with that deflation, that
erasure, that void in the histories or practices, as well.
In my usual manner I asked why, but no response. I don't expect many people to respond to me under my "performance" text the Dangermouse noticed. Was I really the cause of the deletion?
1 - Initiation of Performance (Trolling)
The blog post was clear in its intention and the first comments, and many that follow took objection to the post through what amounted to technical landscape-speak. This effectively negated the posts analogy, purposes, etc...deflating any counterargument, nullify it's qualification simply through the language and technical alone.
section of screenshot Twitter post
Paragraph one is a caricature of English people talking to Americans. Saying seemingly nice things why calling them idiots. Whether Justavisual or Dangermouse intentionally decided to critique the blog with absolute clear and factual technical landscape language to disagree with the blogs analysis on landscaping or whether the intent was to stop the entire argument from the start based on technicalities, they can defend themselves. In other words, the entire blog post, its intent can be discounted because of the technical was incorrect.
Paragraph two, but what if we use words people do not commonly use, will the argument deflate as quickly? Will using a different cultural perspective make the same point or even convey the point. I would suggest it does not. So the paradox, to express the failure or systemic issues in a system one must use that systems language, allowing those who are more "expert in the language" to create a method to discount any further thought on the subject. Eric Weinstein was referenced, see his opinion on academia for further clarification. To shut people out - make sure they cannot speak your language.
Not screenshotted, I then link RATM lead singer speaking with Chomsky...RATM most associated with George Orwell's quote "Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” Or, those who control the language of say Landscaping control the discussion. The trolling text references back to the English - talks about all the Gaelic sub-cultures of Britain and lands on the French being the only ones with any counter argument. If you're familiar with counter-arugments to society currently, you will know most of them come from the French. The rest of the trolling, assuming that's what you want to call it, is on same topic, but to answers a tweet - the entire discussion is still very "white" European, all I did was compare European cultures and to avoid writing more - just familiarize yourself with the speeches of Russel Means.
So whether Justavisual, Dangermouse, and all those who piled on were using their expert knowledge in Landscaping to contradict the blog's argument in what I call the English manner of lieing through their teeth or were just making factual statements - I leave that up to you to decide. My suggestion is speak in another language to really make a point or carry-on the French work of Foucalt, Derrica, and Deleuze...
- DTL.DWG (it's in the details)
All I'm going to say here is that I am reminded of Anita Berrizbeitia's first lecture at the GSD after being appointed chair of the LA department: Landscape Architecture is a discipline born from the sciences and reading precision is a valid method of critique.
I'm not reading 250 page National Parks Service reports on the rose garden because I'm a pedantic white supremacist Trump supporter but because I am curious, it interests me, and when my profession gets national news coverage I want to participate in the discussion, because we so rarely get any discussion at all.
Mitch is a fierce intellect and certainly not lazy, and I don't expect her to perform a full academic review for a blog post, but I am saddened and disappointed to be written off as a lazy racist Trump bot because I defended a small garden renovation by his stockholm syndromed wife.
at least you're thinking about the problem (paragraph 2 and 3). below I think you may have made an assumption, I might be wrong. perspectives are a funny thing. I also apologize for calling you a "dumbass", I'm sure you're not, it was fun while it lasted....but after you rid all the precise language would the blog post still be of interest or valid? (this is my whole Eric Weinstein reference, I see academia as insulated in-crowd who protects each other very well)
If you want to read it, the history of the gardens are pretty interesting: https://www.ovsla.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020_0827-ER-Rose-Garden-Landscape-Report.pdf
One final thought--thank god i post anonymously. I re-read Mitch's twitter thread and it freaks me out. I know Mark and Gina but I don't know Mitch. I don't think I was commenting outside of the boundaries of professional discourse. But, as a young academic, the thought that I could get cancelled because a Princeton professor calls me racist for the crime of being curious about a project and doing some reading before formulating my own conclusions...well I had trouble sleeping last night.
I'm not sure where you were called a Trump bot.
Stay strong Dangermouse!
Danger, Mitch was referred to as "lazy", a clown, and called Eminem? The last one, I'm going to need someone to explain that to me...
With the exception of Mitch, Chris, and myself, everyone else is anonymous, and those doing the race baiting, are also anonymous.
I've suggested this before, but perhaps for features and blogs (I think the blogger should regulate personally) do a little more like reddit or something (there's some term for a whole bunch of people getting together and crowding some thread, can't remember) a little more heavily regulated perhahs...also did I miss something Sunday morning?
also, Dangermouse, since you continue to engage that's very different, even if anonymous, we can remember your intentions versus what I thought was "lieing through their teeth"
Funny how anonymity is now again being used as some kind of argument of validity of who is saying something not what is being said, ergo cancel culture in a nutshell... if all is lost and you have nothing to add or say just use the anonymity-Godwin! +1 for b3ta!
Cancel culture is not real.
It’s real, real legal, and also real dumb. But in America you can be dumb! Yay for liberty!
Cancel culture is a branding of a phenomenon that has always happened. This is done in order to weaponize it. Just like every other buzzword that comes from the troll armies of the internet, when it's used the conversation that might have happened is dead on arrival.
It hasn’t always existed to this degree or sensitivity, or gone as far back in time. How tf aren’t the Dem party canceled yet? They were the party of the kkk.
Selective outrage is the weaponization..not outrage per se.
what the stupid Dutchman is not getting, is that no one is getting fired, for beating on racists. No one is getting fired for posting foul-mouthed comments, but you will get fired for being a racist. perhaps what you fear is your associations with racists, you should. this ain't the 1950s or 60s where you get to hate on Black people with impunity, now, you going to pay for your Red Klan Hat association, and for that I'm comforted.
X, do you need American history explained?
But but but, every thing is/can be racist now, including capitalism, and the left controls what’s “racist”. What a powerful weapon. It’s like “your it infinity” when playing tag as a kid.
Are black trump supporters racist too?
^yep
Capitalism is racist now?
Always.
You ain’t black if you don’t vote Democrat, even though Dems have run black cities into the ground for over 50 years. Sounds like...I dunno...institutionalized racism maybe?
b3ta, anonymity is not because racists are afraid of the consequences of their racism, it is because of stupid morons like you and how you respond to people for not agreeing with you for the full 100%...your shirt is so brown already, but all you do is add shit to the washer, Eisenman could write a thesis about your architecture...
watching from across the pond like you randomised I think we just have a different perspective that cannot be translated to the people who are "in the midst" of it all. the glory of the US system in two parties was that its always been roughly 50/50 and the transition of power from one "side" to the other prevented extremes. But now that both sides have become extreme in their own ways the swings are much harder for the other 50% to handle each time...
^perfect analysis
jla, you're so focused on what you perceive to be other people's blind spots they have left you with massive blind spots of your own. You have no interest in empathy or introspection, only on being brutally, unapologetically right, with no interest in questioning whether you actually ARE.
...and i want to emphasize I'm talking only about the political system, not the gap vs rich/poor or the historical racial issues...which are also happening independent of the "party affiliation" discussion... Race and class do not always indicate which party you support or why...or to what extreme you may show that support.
jav, I find it difficult to trust your assurances considering you've clicked the thumbs up on so many posts that I find extremely problematic.
To focus on the idea that Dems and Repubs are EQUALLY BAD enables and forgives the extreme moves the Repubs are making RIGHT NOW in order to score cheap populist points on a forum.
This so-called "extreme left" is not in power, will never attain that power, however Trump and his racists, make Wallace look like a fucking Saint. I'm voting for Biden, I wanted Warren, does anyone believe they are Marxists? Are they advocating for kids in cages, pushing the nihilism, and anarchists on the left? Really? Is that really happening? Fucking Trump and everyone voting for him are stoking racist trolls, creating gofundme for white nationalist murderers, and we're supposed to do what exactly? Take it? Fffffuck you. When this chapter is written, if tog maga still breathe in 30-40 years, you will be outed for the racist cuck fetishists you are.
Would have voted Tulsi Gabbard, but then DNC forced Biden and Harris upon the population...and it’s them or you’re a racist, so I’ll just draw a veiny dick on the ballot and call it a day.
^^^this right here! It's genius!
The real power of Mitch's blogpost surfaces if you read it in the light of former first lady symbolizing something by planting vegetables, I did. That way it brings Hamptons' wealth vs. against 99% and volumes of societal issues, history, and and and... In it, with what and which you identify is up to you. As simple as that.
I've found justvisual's first post very informative and beautifully competent but the blogpost is talking about and confronting something else. Why don't you discuss that?
I'm just gonna stick my head back in here again. My main initial reaction was mostly on the one-sidedness of the original post and the manner in which some sentences were written. I tried to point out that there are technical aspects to the executed design which serve to solve longstanding problems and are not meant to be political but in this case are interpreted/presented as such. The design might have been overseen by the first lady, but was made by 2 different landscape offices in collaboration, and all decisions were carefully studied by a large board of experts, approved in the context of the historical report, and alternatives prepared after rounds upon rounds of revisions (which you're welcome to read in the public documents if you want to know all the "technical" stuff that goes into landscape). I agree that there are substantially more shrubs than before, but I can also understand the reasoning behind them and I don't take offense in the use of 'shrubbery' in design, because it is a long standing tradition with the power to create beautiful spaces. Landscape is meant to evoke emotion and show mans power over nature (or man over man as this interpretation goes) among other things like just being pretty to look at and functional to use. Only time will tell how successful this design really was. But in any case, it has more roses now than it did before (among other things like paving and shrubs).
Yeah, but where they white roses? Thats racist!
^this right here! It's genius.
And unfortunately Orhan no one seems to want to have that discussion...
wow. What tf did I miss?
nothing. you missed nothing.
I think there was a slight disagreement on some recent Guy Fieri cooking show.
Funny how anonymity is now again being used as some kind of argument of validity of who is saying something not what is being said, ergo cancel culture in a nutshell... if all is lost and you have nothing to add or say just use the anonymity-Godwin! +1 for b3ta!
Now, you seem to be suggesting, that the anonymous, racist comments are bad? Then we're in agreement then?
I stand by my comments. Non-racists, or even anti-racists, would have a problem with my characterization, it's not even fringe. The only people with a problem are racists. But you racist Trumpers won't do anything about it, you're racists, and racists are lazy, sloth like, non-mask wearing idiots.
What racist comments are you referring to?
You sound a lot like GW “if you’re not with us you’re against us” Bush...nice role models you have(!)
You don't have the grounds to pretend to be the adult in the room, Richard Balkins of Astoria, Oregon.
Poor!
*Poof!
this format works too you know.
Blog post here or News post here
Go discuss there - in the forum.
I read that controversial blog. Missed the debate because I was off designing landscapes. My take...1) If you want to make anything into a matter of racism, and are limber enough to do some logical gymnastics, it’s pretty easy. 2) if the exact same garden was designed by a POC who's not part of the trump admin the blog wouldn’t have been written, or would have been positive. 3) Melania comes from the fashion and modeling world, so her sensibilities of style are different than someone who’s spent a life in politics or law. That was completely overlooked. To me it looks more hi-design arch mag material, not necessarily better or worse. If that’s racist, then every architecture mag is racist. I read a convincing article that pbj sandwich’s are racist once. Then I made a pbj sandwich because they are not racist, and they are delicious. Not a single human, unless they are academics will look at that space and interpret it as racism. They will think it’s either “nice” or “boring”. That’s the level of design interpretation that the average person has. Delicious or yucky. That’s it.
It would have been funny to do a blind taste test of the garden with academics...half would be told it was designed by a trump, half will be told it was done by a POC Democratic. The results would be hilarious.
Please define racism without using a dictionary.
A person or system that treats one differently based on immutable racial characteristics.
Notice “differently” not specifically “unfairly”....
I'll stick to asking you to define the foundational phrases in the portions of your worldview I do not understand in one thread.
Gardens cannot be racist, but cutting down trees is lazy. Not sure why the redesign removed the trees. I don’t like that part of it. Other than that, pretty meh garden.
I also missed the whole brouhaha but I finally read the piece and, while I don't *entirely* agree, it is a good attempt at analyzing the philosophical / symbolic results (which, even if not intentional, are surely implicit).
Not sure what all the fuss was about.
The fuss, as usual, is disguising the forest by discussing the trees individually.
Do you really think Melania has the architectural vocabulary and historical knowledge to engineer what the author reverse engineered? I don’t think so
I said *implicit*
"The White House is transported into these terms of private wealth and seclusion, shrubs from the Hamptons" ...because the current occupants of the white house are incapable of viewing their house as anything but.
Oh, ok. Yeah. I don’t disagree.
"The project is presented as a “renovation.” It is presented not in terms of a project brief, a program, or any goals related to a national agenda. (The last garden change tied explicitly to a national agenda, of course, being Michelle Obama’s vegetable garden.) "
It seems that people just glossed over this point, and that's my takeaway; the Garden of Michelle Obama, was rooted in a national agenda, this new one is reënactment(?) of a past, and imposing future.
I never understood why conservatives got annoyed by Michael Obama’s vegetable garden. That was very juvenile and dumb- “I don’t want broccoli wahhh I want chicken nuggets!” Erasing her garden was a shitty passive aggressive move. I get that part. I just don’t understand why shrub gardens are a symbol of white supremacy, because they are not. The formal nature of the garden, with the manicured shrubs may be perceived as symbolic of authoritarianism. Someone once said that “a lawn is nature under totalitarianism”....forget who? Anyway, I think she is correct that it feels more dystopian than the former garden, I think she is wrong that this equates to white supremacy. The dystopian vision that the ruling class has is not rooted in race. Racial tension is simply a means to divide us while they pillage our liberties and resources. Why would a megalomaniac (most political elites Dems included too) only want to oppress 13% of the population? That’s soooo 1850 bro. They want to oppress all of us! That’s my main point that you’re all missing-Stop taking the racial division bait, and come together!
Should have voted for Gary Johnson, this could have been the garden.
* You should have voted for Gary Johnson, this could have been the garden
What would Trump's nickname for Gary Johnson be, do you think?
Hairy Johnson?
Wavy-Gravy
Dopey Johnson