I think PJ was as much a product of his time as any WASP-y person would've been. It was a world of eugenics and imperialism, in a pre-civil rights nation that still segregated based on color, and discriminated based on ethnicity. Don't forget the American nazis held a 20,000 strong rally in 1939. I wouldn't want him to "cancelled" that's for sure.
newbie.Phronesis
Aug 17, 20 7:30 pm
….let's not. "Pearl Harbour comes and Johnson realizes that this whole fascist direction has been a giant disaster, and wrong, and he needs to reinvent himself. And this is when he goes to Harvard to become an architect, to stay out of the limelight for a few years and try and reinvent who he was.
I think he's, in some ways, very genuinely sorry for his foolish behaviour. But on the other hand opportunistic and cynical about it, which is sort of the two sides of the coin that Johnson always plays." Everyone has their shit, better to let it be known and learn from than buried; maybe just don't idolize him as much. (Le Corbusier had his own troubled past, and there's no way you'd be able remove him from architectural history)
drums please, Fab?
Aug 17, 20 9:31 pm
Most 'nectors obits will read:
('nect architect), who died in 2050ish, was a marxist/socialist in the 2010s and 2020s, helping BLM push their agenda in the United States.
citizen
Aug 17, 20 10:02 pm
Oooh... can mine also say: he was smart, kind, funny, and hung like a horse ?
rcz1001
Aug 18, 20 12:32 am
Drum, that assumes you the archinectors are mostly in their 50s and 60s. Not sure that's the case.
drums please, Fab?
Aug 18, 20 11:59 am
no rcarz, i'm assuming most all of us be wiped out by climate change in the 2050ish-es. you don't want to go down in history as a climate change denier!
rcz1001
Aug 18, 20 1:35 pm
I'm not a climate change denier as far as the idea of denying that the climate changes. However, this does not mean I agree with every "doom & gloom" prediction by some. I don't think even most of us would even be dead because of the changes in 30 years.
drums please, Fab?
Aug 18, 20 2:46 pm
that's it! either bow down to the almighty climate God or else ur cancelled!
rcz1001
Aug 18, 20 2:50 pm
I bow to thou who controls the climate of the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, and the universe but not to the much less hairy apes.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:53 pm
Ricky, you're so unqualified to talk about this it physically hurts.
rcz1001
Aug 18, 20 4:40 pm
There's no qualification for talking about anything and you're less than that.
I have taken environmental geography which covers issues of climatology but sorry humans can live in quite a temperature range especially with your climate controlled environments (heated, ventilated, and air conditioned abodes).
rcz1001
Aug 18, 20 4:55 pm
By 2050, we're only talking about average temperature changes of around 5 degrees increase where most people live. In general, people can live in temperatures as high as your body temperature. Most people live in climates where the average temperature most of the year is between 40 and 85. It's not the temperature that I would be concerned about. The weather systems might be more an issue but we can mitigate structural failure with better engineering. However, the climate condition isn't going to result in 80-90% of the people on Archinect, or even 30% of the people on Archinect end up dying. It's not going to happen. You are most likely going to die for other reasons than a mere increase in daily temperature by 5 degrees especially if it takes 30 years to increase by only that much. It didn't in the last 30 years. Hell, we deal with larger temperature swings between heatwaves.
As for food production, I do foresee impact but that can be addresses. However, there are other concerns that may do this human species in and it would be by human hands but it isn't the climate.... not for a bit more time than 2050. Maybe in 2150 or 2250 but not 2050.
rcz1001
Aug 18, 20 5:04 pm
FYI: I have read the IPCC reports. Yeah, those big fat climate reports. The point is to stop the "The sky is falling" nonsense, Mr. Chicken Little. There are concerns to be taken and actions do need to be taken but you (rhetorical) aren't helping by sounding like a panicking loon.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:13 pm
Congratulations, you went to class and learned fuck all.
drinks_at_avec
Aug 18, 20 1:12 am
Johnson had an African American boyfriend in the 30s. They were both committed fascists. Fascism before the war was not as black and white as we see it now. He rode with the Wehrmacht into Poland. He thought Mies was the apotheosis of what German, and world, architecture could and would become. My friend was his biographer and thought Johnson had "serious issues moral and otherwise." They did not get along, especially at the end. Johnson is sort of what many architecture deans aspire to be: Kingmakers, setters of architectural discourse and anointers of architectural destiny. Johnson was much more successful by letting his money do the talking.
natematt
Aug 18, 20 1:44 am
"At its core it has atriums, as I'm sure you've experienced, which are a Johnson hallmark. [There's] a sense of hollowness in many of these buildings, that I think is endemic with him"
Remind me not to design an atrium again, as I do not wish for it to be seen as a representation of the emptiness of my soul....
drinks_at_avec
Aug 18, 20 1:47 am
Johnson designed this reviewing stand for Father Coughlin for a rally at Riverview Park in Chicago in 1936. Johnson equated aesthetics with a political viewpoint: Communism and lassez-faire capitalism created "leveling" or mediocre architecture. Fascism was the lone place where a genius could have their art and expression embraced and championed. Hence, his white, flag-topped, Italian futurist style podium for the racist demagogue Coughlin.
randomised
Aug 18, 20 8:45 am
why even cancel him, he’s more relevant than ever...so 2020 it hurts
monosierra
Aug 18, 20 9:34 am
History should be not "cancelled" - that is the work of weak societies. Bring them to light and be sure to educate posterity. I know in this age of dis-information, history can be appropriated for nefarious means and buttressed by factoids masquerading as the complete picture. But to erase things entirely is folly. The work's merits can be assessed with the author's provenance. The objective qualities can be assessed on their own merits but the whole value of the work should be taught with the context of their creation in mind. Guessing at the intent of the author and how that ultimately informed the creation and deployment of the work is the trickiest part of it all - but hopefully that's where academia can come in without the pressure of simply ignoring that the work has ever had any relevance.
For what it's worth, Johnson was more of a curator of architecture than a maker.
randomised
Aug 18, 20 10:15 am
history is always appropriated for nefarious means, by default...you’ll see when they will write the history books about 2020 ;)
monosierra
Aug 18, 20 10:26 am
True true and the victors write the books. The idea of a "complete picture" is a tough one to realize. Presentation of just facts would be ideal but some curating/editing will have to be performed and that is where bias creeps in. Does an author's moral failures negate the work's own validity? Can we learn about the work in a vacuum of context and provenance? Is it morally defective to leave out information about an author if it has no impact on the work's merits? What of the author's own composition - Johnson is gay and anti-semite. Should both be discussed with respect to his work?
JLC-1
Aug 18, 20 11:07 am
should we level Versailles as well? Buckingham? symbols of oppression as good as any.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 11:15 am
Why only cancel things that the Europeans created? That’s the part I really don’t get.
monosierra
Aug 18, 20 11:17 am
There's no end to canceling once folks step on that path. Its just a power grab - some people using their moral hammer to beat others to submission.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:53 pm
like has been done in this country for generations, only now it's bad because it's white male culture getting the lion's share
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 4:59 pm
There is nothing such “white male culture”.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:01 pm
There is a such thing as the CCP, and they are currently sending millions of Muslims to concentration camps. How those Nike’s fit?
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:11 pm
Oh man, I had to screenshot this.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:12 pm
You're just a grab bag of random news stories with no coherent narrative. Maybe it's why it's so difficult to care when speaking with you.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:23 pm
there is no such thing as white male culture. “White” is not a culture. You like to distill the world to fit your narrative and then scream for nuance when your foolish tunnel vision is challenged.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:25 pm
Do you listen to yourself? You project so much I'm surprised you haven't started a multiplex.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:34 pm
Like I said, you call it “random news stories
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:35 pm
But you are just not seeing the connection that many many other people are seeing. Cancel culture is part of a much bigger cultural trend. Argue all you want. Most people understand this now.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:40 pm
“No coherent narrative”. The narrative is very clear. The leftist mob and media overlords exempt the worst violator of human rights-China- and then lose their shit over mean things people said in 1990.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:45 pm
Only person giving China a pass worth talking about is in the White House, but nobody here was talking about China until the SS X-Lax hit an iceberg.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:46 pm
"Cancel Culture is real" says the guy who would have been cancelled from Archinect if it was true.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 11:04 am
cancel culture is just brats kicking and screaming because the world isn’t perfect and unicorns don’t exist. Humans are both good and bad. Some great artists had other flaws. Adults should be able to separate and compartmentalize. We should be able to say that MJ was a twisted pervert but also a great pop star. problem is, adults aren’t guiding the narrative in 2020. Those little brats who were on the floor of Target cursing out their defeated weak parents are...
muji-pen
Aug 18, 20 11:38 am
It's about holding people accountable so they don't use their social capital to perpetually do horrible things. Examples of this can be found in Kevin Spacey and R kelly. I agree that it goes too far (the fact that its referenced as a culture is insane). The fact that you cant draw links between Michael Jacksons' fame and his perversion is a testament to your ability to think critically. Yes, they are different things, but his fame ALLOWS him to act on his perversions. Your notion that being able to compartmentalize is what makes you an adult is so dumb. Adults should be able to understand things in relation to each other, as thats how the world works..
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 12:09 pm
I agree that his fame allowed him power to abuse. That’s true. I disagree that it’s not a “culture”. It is absolutely a culture at this time. Many people, myself included, called attention to this several years ago. It was ridiculed and said to be confined to academia. The sjw culture is one of groups of lonely people who otherwise live lives without purpose (don’t mean that as an insult, it’s actually a big problem that warrants a whole different discussion) virtue signaling for peer attention and acceptance in the religious orthodoxy of social justice politics. It’s 100% a religion and it’s moral code of conduct is as rigid as any established religion. Canceling blasphemy in the name of their “doctrine” of unattainable fairness and perfection.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 12:14 pm
If we found out tomorrow that Einstein was a serial killer cannibal, E would still = MC2. That’s what I mean by compartmentalize. Understand that historical figures are not hero’s, or role models, but people who are capable of the entire range of human greatness and wickedness.
muji-pen
Aug 18, 20 12:21 pm
Yeah, I can agree completely that it's out of control. No one can cancel someone out of history, that's ridiculous. I think when it comes to living people, it makes sense not to have a predator (for example) as a public figure. But when it comes to dead people, it's mostly about writing a responsible history.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 12:23 pm
One more important point, then I’ll exit...elevating and putting attention to the persona of the artist above that of the artwork itself feeds into the culture of fame and celebrity.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:50 pm
I only see one spoiled brat kicking the figurative floor and wailing.
Having grown up in a 1000sf house with 10 other people, and working my ass off to buy a nice house, I’d love these lazy entitled bottom dwellers to step foot on my property. Id spank them like their fat mothers should have.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 4:51 pm
“Give up your house … give Black people back their homes,” an activist who appears to be Tatii demanded into a bullhorn as the mob stopped outside a home. Another demanded a homeowner, “Open your wallet!”
Another activist from Everyday March, identified on one video as TK, shouted at residents to, “Give us our s— back,” before demanding reparations. He then demanded the man “move out” of his home.”
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 4:52 pm
This is what happens when we allow kids to get away with unchecked entitlement, coddling, safe space, cancel things that make me sad, bs....it’s all connected. Don’t blame me for your inability to connect the dots.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 5:10 pm
So you're all for removing institutional, historical, and long term entitlement from folks? You heard jla, white people. Give it up.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:27 pm
You are a moron. I’m not wasting my time with you.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 5:31 pm
Nothing can be “removed” by skinny 20yo socialists who can’t even change a tire (whom are like 90% white) Better cut down on the soy of you are preparing for a “takeover”. Lol. These dorks are hilarious.
You deny the left perpetrates violence. You deny cancel culture. You deny the dangers of Marxism. You Deny the nefarious forces behind BLM. You have quite a few blind spots. The difference between you and I is that I am not beholden to any political persuasion, and I can call out tyranny and bad behavior regardless of who perpetrates it. I am an independent. You are a cog.
SneakyPete
Aug 19, 20 1:30 pm
"I am not beholden to any political persuasion"
Best joke you have ever made.
Then you assume, once again, many things about me based on what you want to be true. You're not talking to me, you're talking to a straw dummy with a name tag that probably reads "sneekypeet" .
x-jla
Aug 19, 20 1:52 pm
I’m a political atheist. I’m in a room of rock worshipers, so no need to poke at sun worshipers in this particular space.
x-jla
Aug 19, 20 1:53 pm
My only “belief“ is that I’m not willing to live under authoritarianism, in any form.
x-jla
Aug 19, 20 1:59 pm
Cancel culture in and of itself is just free speech meets boycotting which is fine and dandy...but this is connected to a much larger cultural shift that seeks authoritarian control and power. If you don’t see that, that’s your issue, but providing excuses and justifications perpetrates the real violent under tones that are beginning to surface across the country. On this thread, you made numerous statements that feed into the tribalism. This is not a joke. Things can get very ugly very quickly as we’ve been seeing unfold since March.
SneakyPete
Aug 19, 20 2:19 pm
Attack me all you like, but you're still projecting to an embarrassing degree. Calling others "tribal" and "blind" indicates an enormous lack of self awareness. You have no grounds to be so certain or smug, yet it's all you've got in your quiver.
square.
Aug 19, 20 2:23 pm
you're a political atheist, yet you spend 99% of your words condemning "leftists" and parroting rightest, trump talking points. ok.
x-jla
Aug 19, 20 4:33 pm
It’s a funny game that is being played eh. The left mob beats someone up, the right mob says that left is beating people up, then if anyone calls out the left for beating people up they are parroting right taking points. goes same way in the other direction as well...tribalism is not about making an obvious criticism that another tribe shares...it’s about making a criticism because the tribe shares said criticism. I am critiquing the left because you are all in that tribe. I’ll throw shit at the right wingers on their turf
SneakyPete
Aug 19, 20 4:52 pm
based on past lurking thumbs, i think phronesis sock puppeted the wrong comment with its thumbs up
square.
Aug 19, 20 5:25 pm
i always see red flags when someone claims to be "centrist;" it's much like claiming to be humble or generous; those who actually are would never say it.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 11:51 am
Let's cancel this entire thread so it doesn't become another bad episode of X-Lax and The Dutchman.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 12:11 pm
Why are you so afraid of people who disagree with you? Are you that infantile? That narcissistic? Your beliefs are not that important. Get over yourself.
Non Sequitur
Aug 18, 20 12:13 pm
gonna get my money's worth outta this one.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 12:18 pm
He’s just a bully playing in his sandbox non...nothing to see here...
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 12:40 pm
Afraid of you? No. Annoyed by you? Yes. Spewing endless amounts of words without listening, as you do, does not make you an adult, does not mean you're empathetic, and doesn't indicate you have some sort of superior mind. We all know this. You probably do, too. Nice to know you still find me threatening, though.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 12:51 pm
As threatening as a shit fly buzzing around an afternoon cocktail...
Non Sequitur
Aug 18, 20 1:01 pm
^stop putting fresh shit in your cocktails then.
atelier nobody
Aug 18, 20 1:03 pm
Is stale shit better in cocktails? You learn something new every day...
Non Sequitur
Aug 18, 20 1:24 pm
It attracteurs less flies.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 1:32 pm
Non, you're assuming this topic was intended as a refreshing beverage in the first place as opposed to an enema.
Non Sequitur
Aug 18, 20 1:43 pm
it's ok Pete, I'm not that thirsty anymore
randomised
Aug 18, 20 4:13 pm
yeah let's cancel the thread discussing the current age of cancel culture and pretend cancel culture doesn't exist(!)
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 4:25 pm
THERE HE IS(!!)
randomised
Aug 18, 20 4:32 pm
am a tad disappointed you didn't opt for bold too
Non Sequitur
Aug 18, 20 4:36 pm
Not every opinion is worthy of an audience and just because said audience cares little for yours, does not mean you're "cancelled".
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 4:41 pm
random, they are just sealing their own fate for another 4 years of trump. Same shit happened per 2016 when the woke mob went full wacky. If I didn’t think trump was a total moron I’d be suspicious that he’s behind it all.
b3tadine[sutures]
Aug 19, 20 5:07 pm
You use woke the way a whyte man uses "dope". Thank you for that, the ubiquity is rendering it, and you, well; forgettable.
x-jla
Aug 19, 20 6:05 pm
B3, you must be well insulated. The vast majority of the public mocks this woke shit. Forgettable will be this mindless bs as soon as the election is over and they’ve herded the sheep into their booth.
SneakyPete
Aug 19, 20 6:30 pm
oh, good. the vast majority is always right.
przemula
Aug 18, 20 12:09 pm
I disagree with cancel culture, I also think it's pretty dumb, however, there are some things that I think are worth to keep in mind when talking about Philip Johsnon.
I've read about him while reading one of Robert Schuller books, where he was describing working with Phillips on Crystal Cathedral. I wanted to learn more about his work, and that's where I learned about his Nazi fascination.
Shocking thing to me was finding out that in late 30s/early 40s, he wasn't just an useful idiot like any generic western journalist, that was shown only certain aspects of the regime he was reporting. From what I've read, he observed Third Reich invading Poland. He saw Poles getting slaughtered, and called it a "stirring spectacle", when talking to a friend, while reporting at the same time, that Germans are not doing any harm to Polish people. I'm from Poland and I remember my grandma telling me stories how she was hiding for 3 days in a barn basement when Wehrmacht was marching through our village. There's monument by my house where Germans killed around 30 Poles in September 39'. Millions of people suffered horribly because of Nazi ideology and Germans executing it, and Philips knew about it. Just something to keep in mind
atelier nobody
Aug 18, 20 12:38 pm
Can we cancel him for being a hack that nobody would ever had heard of if Mommy hadn't bought his way into the profession for him?
Donna Sink
Aug 18, 20 12:57 pm
I honestly don't think I know what "cancel" means. When I hear that someone was "cancelled" I figure it means they said or did something shitty and were subject to criticism. Philip Johnson's friendliness with power, even extremists, if it would get him a commission has been criticized a *lot* on Archinect.
Discussing his approach to power has led to many architects and future architects questioning their own attitudes and ethics, I am certain. Does that mean Philip Johnson has been "cancelled"?
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 1:07 pm
Cancel culture does not exist. It's language created by people so they can misdirect the conversation when they find that the tide of history has uncovered negative things about people they have placed on pedestals instead of wrestling with the conflicting emotions, thoughts, and narratives. It's easier to blame some phantom with a pithy name than to blame someone you admire for the shitty things they've hid (or, indeed, not). It's a tactic used often on the Right, see "PC".
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 1:28 pm
Description
Cancel culture refers to the popular practice of withdrawing support for (canceling) public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive. Cancel culture is generally discussed as being performed on social media in the form of group shaming.“ -dictionary.com
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 1:31 pm
This is where I'd write something about using dictionaries as some sort of arbiter of fact as opposed to illustrating language as it's used.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 1:32 pm
It’s basically modern day shunning. The smaller the “offense” called out the more “woke” the one who calls it out...Exchange word “offense” for blasphemy and “woke” for holy....cancel culture is essentially the mode in which the modern day secular religion of wokeness Expresses itself.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 1:36 pm
People discover things that cause them to take their support elsewhere. Are you taking umbrage with the opinions of people that you disagree with and how they choose to express those opinions? I didn't think jla-x did that sort of thing.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 2:02 pm
They can do what they please, it’s a free country. it’s just a funny sociological trend that’s being identified and explored. What I’m saying is that it’s not authentic, and that the true driver is social media likes and a sense of belonging to the wokeness cult.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:05 pm
So we agree that you're just whining and Cancel Culture isn't a real thing.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 2:07 pm
The problem is when the woke mob begins to dictate their will through violence. Or do you support that?
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 2:08 pm
If it didn’t exist we wouldn’t be talking about it right?
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:08 pm
"when the woke mob begins to dictate their will through violence"
Has not happened, worthless to speculate as I disagree with your fear. And you'll inevitable try to tie this all to portland and it'll be bullshit and I don't have the energy to waste on you further today.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 2:11 pm
What has not happened?
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:13 pm
We talk about many things that have titles that aren't real. You know this, but you're being your usual disingenuous self, feigning ignorance when it suits you and only responding to half of what's being discussed. It isn't clever, and it's why I really loathe engaging with you.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 2:16 pm
Because you are living in a bubble of bs. Violence hasn’t happened? Are you for real? You are ridiculous and blind to anything that rattles your world view. I can attach a ton of articles, including the one about the vandalism in Williamsburg last night and the calls to “murder Bezos” but it’s not worth my time. You are obviously not concerned with reality.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:17 pm
"You are obviously not concerned with reality."
Not your perspective on reality, at any rate. I encourage you to put me on your ignore list.
x-jla
Aug 18, 20 2:21 pm
I don’t have an ignore list. That’s for weak minded mental toddlers. I can handle opposing thoughts. Not a big deal.
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:28 pm
Your responses to me up above definitely show that you are not a weak minded mental toddler who can't handle opposing thoughts. Definitely. Yup. No doubt.
drums please, Fab?
Aug 18, 20 2:48 pm
woke up pete to the ultra-violence lest ye be cancelled!
SneakyPete
Aug 18, 20 2:49 pm
word type fab shout the man in the air filled room void
BabbleBeautiful
Aug 18, 20 5:14 pm
@Donna: I see it as a buzzword that was appropriated by, SURPRISE, some brief form of entertainment. It will come and go like most ephemeral trends. There's a The Daily podcast episode aired on Aug 10, "Cancel Culture, Part 1: Where It Came From" that was enlightening for me.
monosierra
Aug 18, 20 5:18 pm
I think it broadly refers to movements that, at the extreme, seeks to remove all mention of a particular person, event, or object because of a moral infraction on the part of the author.
citizen
Aug 19, 20 4:58 pm
This discussion (much like PJ himself) is late.
^ The ultimate cancellation.
x-jla
Aug 19, 20 5:55 pm
That doesn’t look like a modernist gravestone.
SneakyPete
Aug 19, 20 6:02 pm
that would require that he was thinking ahead and considered himself mortal. but he was an architect, so a heart it is.
randomised
Aug 20, 20 3:27 am
Somehow find it endearing when people call the Nazi whisperer “PJ”, all I can see now is an old man in his pyjamas and slippers wearing silly glasses.
Volunteer
Aug 20, 20 6:42 am
If you are bored with Philip Johnson, a planned museum dedicated to Le Corbusier is on the edge of the 'memory hole' along with Corb himself (or at least his statue). And so it goes.
When do we start erasing him from architectural books?
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecu...
I think PJ was as much a product of his time as any WASP-y person would've been. It was a world of eugenics and imperialism, in a pre-civil rights nation that still segregated based on color, and discriminated based on ethnicity. Don't forget the American nazis held a 20,000 strong rally in 1939. I wouldn't want him to "cancelled" that's for sure.
….let's not.
"Pearl Harbour comes and Johnson realizes that this whole fascist direction has been a giant disaster, and wrong, and he needs to reinvent himself. And this is when he goes to Harvard to become an architect, to stay out of the limelight for a few years and try and reinvent who he was.
I think he's, in some ways, very genuinely sorry for his foolish behaviour. But on the other hand opportunistic and cynical about it, which is sort of the two sides of the coin that Johnson always plays."
Everyone has their shit, better to let it be known and learn from than buried; maybe just don't idolize him as much. (Le Corbusier had his own troubled past, and there's no way you'd be able remove him from architectural history)
Most 'nectors obits will read:
('nect architect), who died in 2050ish, was a marxist/socialist in the 2010s and 2020s, helping BLM push their agenda in the United States.
Oooh... can mine also say: he was smart, kind, funny, and hung like a horse ?
Drum, that assumes you the archinectors are mostly in their 50s and 60s. Not sure that's the case.
no rcarz, i'm assuming most all of us be wiped out by climate change in the 2050ish-es. you don't want to go down in history as a climate change denier!
I'm not a climate change denier as far as the idea of denying that the climate changes. However, this does not mean I agree with every "doom & gloom" prediction by some. I don't think even most of us would even be dead because of the changes in 30 years.
that's it! either bow down to the almighty climate God or else ur cancelled!
I bow to thou who controls the climate of the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, and the universe but not to the much less hairy apes.
Ricky, you're so unqualified to talk about this it physically hurts.
There's no qualification for talking about anything and you're less than that.
I have taken environmental geography which covers issues of climatology but sorry humans can live in quite a temperature range especially with your climate controlled environments (heated, ventilated, and air conditioned abodes).
By 2050, we're only talking about average temperature changes of around 5 degrees increase where most people live. In general, people can live in temperatures as high as your body temperature. Most people live in climates where the average temperature most of the year is between 40 and 85. It's not the temperature that I would be concerned about. The weather systems might be more an issue but we can mitigate structural failure with better engineering. However, the climate condition isn't going to result in 80-90% of the people on Archinect, or even 30% of the people on Archinect end up dying. It's not going to happen. You are most likely going to die for other reasons than a mere increase in daily temperature by 5 degrees especially if it takes 30 years to increase by only that much. It didn't in the last 30 years. Hell, we deal with larger temperature swings between heatwaves.
As for food production, I do foresee impact but that can be addresses. However, there are other concerns that may do this human species in and it would be by human hands but it isn't the climate.... not for a bit more time than 2050. Maybe in 2150 or 2250 but not 2050.
FYI: I have read the IPCC reports. Yeah, those big fat climate reports. The point is to stop the "The sky is falling" nonsense, Mr. Chicken Little. There are concerns to be taken and actions do need to be taken but you (rhetorical) aren't helping by sounding like a panicking loon.
Congratulations, you went to class and learned fuck all.
Johnson had an African American boyfriend in the 30s. They were both committed fascists. Fascism before the war was not as black and white as we see it now. He rode with the Wehrmacht into Poland. He thought Mies was the apotheosis of what German, and world, architecture could and would become. My friend was his biographer and thought Johnson had "serious issues moral and otherwise." They did not get along, especially at the end. Johnson is sort of what many architecture deans aspire to be: Kingmakers, setters of architectural discourse and anointers of architectural destiny. Johnson was much more successful by letting his money do the talking.
"At its core it has atriums, as I'm sure you've experienced, which are a Johnson hallmark. [There's] a sense of hollowness in many of these buildings, that I think is endemic with him"
Remind me not to design an atrium again, as I do not wish for it to be seen as a representation of the emptiness of my soul....
Johnson designed this reviewing stand for Father Coughlin for a rally at Riverview Park in Chicago in 1936. Johnson equated aesthetics with a political viewpoint: Communism and lassez-faire capitalism created "leveling" or mediocre architecture. Fascism was the lone place where a genius could have their art and expression embraced and championed. Hence, his white, flag-topped, Italian futurist style podium for the racist demagogue Coughlin.
why even cancel him, he’s more relevant than ever...so 2020 it hurts
History should be not "cancelled" - that is the work of weak societies. Bring them to light and be sure to educate posterity. I know in this age of dis-information, history can be appropriated for nefarious means and buttressed by factoids masquerading as the complete picture. But to erase things entirely is folly. The work's merits can be assessed with the author's provenance. The objective qualities can be assessed on their own merits but the whole value of the work should be taught with the context of their creation in mind. Guessing at the intent of the author and how that ultimately informed the creation and deployment of the work is the trickiest part of it all - but hopefully that's where academia can come in without the pressure of simply ignoring that the work has ever had any relevance.
For what it's worth, Johnson was more of a curator of architecture than a maker.
history is always appropriated for nefarious means, by default...you’ll see when they will write the history books about 2020 ;)
True true and the victors write the books. The idea of a "complete picture" is a tough one to realize. Presentation of just facts would be ideal but some curating/editing will have to be performed and that is where bias creeps in. Does an author's moral failures negate the work's own validity? Can we learn about the work in a vacuum of context and provenance? Is it morally defective to leave out information about an author if it has no impact on the work's merits? What of the author's own composition - Johnson is gay and anti-semite. Should both be discussed with respect to his work?
should we level Versailles as well? Buckingham? symbols of oppression as good as any.
Why only cancel things that the Europeans created? That’s the part I really don’t get.
There's no end to canceling once folks step on that path. Its just a power grab - some people using their moral hammer to beat others to submission.
like has been done in this country for generations, only now it's bad because it's white male culture getting the lion's share
There is nothing such “white male culture”.
There is a such thing as the CCP, and they are currently sending millions of Muslims to concentration camps. How those Nike’s fit?
Oh man, I had to screenshot this.
You're just a grab bag of random news stories with no coherent narrative. Maybe it's why it's so difficult to care when speaking with you.
there is no such thing as white male culture. “White” is not a culture. You like to distill the world to fit your narrative and then scream for nuance when your foolish tunnel vision is challenged.
Do you listen to yourself? You project so much I'm surprised you haven't started a multiplex.
Like I said, you call it “random news stories
But you are just not seeing the connection that many many other people are seeing. Cancel culture is part of a much bigger cultural trend. Argue all you want. Most people understand this now.
“No coherent narrative”. The narrative is very clear. The leftist mob and media overlords exempt the worst violator of human rights-China- and then lose their shit over mean things people said in 1990.
Only person giving China a pass worth talking about is in the White House, but nobody here was talking about China until the SS X-Lax hit an iceberg.
"Cancel Culture is real" says the guy who would have been cancelled from Archinect if it was true.
cancel culture is just brats kicking and screaming because the world isn’t perfect and unicorns don’t exist. Humans are both good and bad. Some great artists had other flaws. Adults should be able to separate and compartmentalize. We should be able to say that MJ was a twisted pervert but also a great pop star. problem is, adults aren’t guiding the narrative in 2020. Those little brats who were on the floor of Target cursing out their defeated weak parents are...
It's about holding people accountable so they don't use their social capital to perpetually do horrible things. Examples of this can be found in Kevin Spacey and R kelly. I agree that it goes too far (the fact that its referenced as a culture is insane). The fact that you cant draw links between Michael Jacksons' fame and his perversion is a testament to your ability to think critically. Yes, they are different things, but his fame ALLOWS him to act on his perversions. Your notion that being able to compartmentalize is what makes you an adult is so dumb. Adults should be able to understand things in relation to each other, as thats how the world works..
I agree that his fame allowed him power to abuse. That’s true. I disagree that it’s not a “culture”. It is absolutely a culture at this time. Many people, myself included, called attention to this several years ago. It was ridiculed and said to be confined to academia. The sjw culture is one of groups of lonely people who otherwise live lives without purpose (don’t mean that as an insult, it’s actually a big problem that warrants a whole different discussion) virtue signaling for peer attention and acceptance in the religious orthodoxy of social justice politics. It’s 100% a religion and it’s moral code of conduct is as rigid as any established religion. Canceling blasphemy in the name of their “doctrine” of unattainable fairness and perfection.
If we found out tomorrow that Einstein was a serial killer cannibal, E would still = MC2. That’s what I mean by compartmentalize. Understand that historical figures are not hero’s, or role models, but people who are capable of the entire range of human greatness and wickedness.
Yeah, I can agree completely that it's out of control. No one can cancel someone out of history, that's ridiculous. I think when it comes to living people, it makes sense not to have a predator (for example) as a public figure. But when it comes to dead people, it's mostly about writing a responsible history.
One more important point, then I’ll exit...elevating and putting attention to the persona of the artist above that of the artwork itself feeds into the culture of fame and celebrity.
I only see one spoiled brat kicking the figurative floor and wailing.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mynorthwest.com/2094891/rantz-racist-mob-white-seattle-homeowners/amp/
Having grown up in a 1000sf house with 10 other people, and working my ass off to buy a nice house, I’d love these lazy entitled bottom dwellers to step foot on my property. Id spank them like their fat mothers should have.
“Give up your house … give Black people back their homes,” an activist who appears to be Tatii demanded into a bullhorn as the mob stopped outside a home. Another demanded a homeowner, “Open your wallet!”
Another activist from Everyday March, identified on one video as TK, shouted at residents to, “Give us our s— back,” before demanding reparations. He then demanded the man “move out” of his home.”
This is what happens when we allow kids to get away with unchecked entitlement, coddling, safe space, cancel things that make me sad, bs....it’s all connected. Don’t blame me for your inability to connect the dots.
So you're all for removing institutional, historical, and long term entitlement from folks? You heard jla, white people. Give it up.
You are a moron. I’m not wasting my time with you.
Nothing can be “removed” by skinny 20yo socialists who can’t even change a tire (whom are like 90% white) Better cut down on the soy of you are preparing for a “takeover”. Lol. These dorks are hilarious.
Doctor, we've hit a nerve.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/manhunt-underway-portland-truck-assault-police.amp
You deny the left perpetrates violence. You deny cancel culture. You deny the dangers of Marxism. You Deny the nefarious forces behind BLM. You have quite a few blind spots. The difference between you and I is that I am not beholden to any political persuasion, and I can call out tyranny and bad behavior regardless of who perpetrates it. I am an independent. You are a cog.
"I am not beholden to any political persuasion"
Best joke you have ever made.
Then you assume, once again, many things about me based on what you want to be true. You're not talking to me, you're talking to a straw dummy with a name tag that probably reads "sneekypeet" .
I’m a political atheist. I’m in a room of rock worshipers, so no need to poke at sun worshipers in this particular space.
My only “belief“ is that I’m not willing to live under authoritarianism, in any form.
Cancel culture in and of itself is just free speech meets boycotting which is fine and dandy...but this is connected to a much larger cultural shift that seeks authoritarian control and power. If you don’t see that, that’s your issue, but providing excuses and justifications perpetrates the real violent under tones that are beginning to surface across the country. On this thread, you made numerous statements that feed into the tribalism. This is not a joke. Things can get very ugly very quickly as we’ve been seeing unfold since March.
Attack me all you like, but you're still projecting to an embarrassing degree. Calling others "tribal" and "blind" indicates an enormous lack of self awareness. You have no grounds to be so certain or smug, yet it's all you've got in your quiver.
you're a political atheist, yet you spend 99% of your words condemning "leftists" and parroting rightest, trump talking points. ok.
It’s a funny game that is being played eh. The left mob beats someone up, the right mob says that left is beating people up, then if anyone calls out the left for beating people up they are parroting right taking points. goes same way in the other direction as well...tribalism is not about making an obvious criticism that another tribe shares...it’s about making a criticism because the tribe shares said criticism. I am critiquing the left because you are all in that tribe. I’ll throw shit at the right wingers on their turf
based on past lurking thumbs, i think phronesis sock puppeted the wrong comment with its thumbs up
i always see red flags when someone claims to be "centrist;" it's much like claiming to be humble or generous; those who actually are would never say it.
Let's cancel this entire thread so it doesn't become another bad episode of X-Lax and The Dutchman.
Why are you so afraid of people who disagree with you? Are you that infantile? That narcissistic? Your beliefs are not that important. Get over yourself.
gonna get my money's worth outta this one.
He’s just a bully playing in his sandbox non...nothing to see here...
Afraid of you? No. Annoyed by you? Yes. Spewing endless amounts of words without listening, as you do, does not make you an adult, does not mean you're empathetic, and doesn't indicate you have some sort of superior mind. We all know this. You probably do, too. Nice to know you still find me threatening, though.
As threatening as a shit fly buzzing around an afternoon cocktail...
^stop putting fresh shit in your cocktails then.
Is stale shit better in cocktails? You learn something new every day...
It attracteurs less flies.
Non, you're assuming this topic was intended as a refreshing beverage in the first place as opposed to an enema.
it's ok Pete, I'm not that thirsty anymore
yeah let's cancel the thread discussing the current age of cancel culture and pretend cancel culture doesn't exist(!)
THERE HE IS(!!)
am a tad disappointed you didn't opt for bold too
Not every opinion is worthy of an audience and just because said audience cares little for yours, does not mean you're "cancelled".
random, they are just sealing their own fate for another 4 years of trump. Same shit happened per 2016 when the woke mob went full wacky. If I didn’t think trump was a total moron I’d be suspicious that he’s behind it all.
You use woke the way a whyte man uses "dope". Thank you for that, the ubiquity is rendering it, and you, well; forgettable.
B3, you must be well insulated. The vast majority of the public mocks this woke shit. Forgettable will be this mindless bs as soon as the election is over and they’ve herded the sheep into their booth.
oh, good. the vast majority is always right.
I disagree with cancel culture, I also think it's pretty dumb, however, there are some things that I think are worth to keep in mind when talking about Philip Johsnon.
I've read about him while reading one of Robert Schuller books, where he was describing working with Phillips on Crystal Cathedral. I wanted to learn more about his work, and that's where I learned about his Nazi fascination.
Shocking thing to me was finding out that in late 30s/early 40s, he wasn't just an useful idiot like any generic western journalist, that was shown only certain aspects of the regime he was reporting. From what I've read, he observed Third Reich invading Poland. He saw Poles getting slaughtered, and called it a "stirring spectacle", when talking to a friend, while reporting at the same time, that Germans are not doing any harm to Polish people. I'm from Poland and I remember my grandma telling me stories how she was hiding for 3 days in a barn basement when Wehrmacht was marching through our village. There's monument by my house where Germans killed around 30 Poles in September 39'. Millions of people suffered horribly because of Nazi ideology and Germans executing it, and Philips knew about it. Just something to keep in mind
Can we cancel him for being a hack that nobody would ever had heard of if Mommy hadn't bought his way into the profession for him?
I honestly don't think I know what "cancel" means. When I hear that someone was "cancelled" I figure it means they said or did something shitty and were subject to criticism. Philip Johnson's friendliness with power, even extremists, if it would get him a commission has been criticized a *lot* on Archinect.
Discussing his approach to power has led to many architects and future architects questioning their own attitudes and ethics, I am certain. Does that mean Philip Johnson has been "cancelled"?
Cancel culture does not exist. It's language created by people so they can misdirect the conversation when they find that the tide of history has uncovered negative things about people they have placed on pedestals instead of wrestling with the conflicting emotions, thoughts, and narratives. It's easier to blame some phantom with a pithy name than to blame someone you admire for the shitty things they've hid (or, indeed, not). It's a tactic used often on the Right, see "PC".
Description
Cancel culture refers to the popular practice of withdrawing support for (canceling) public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive. Cancel culture is generally discussed as being performed on social media in the form of group shaming.“ -dictionary.com
This is where I'd write something about using dictionaries as some sort of arbiter of fact as opposed to illustrating language as it's used.
It’s basically modern day shunning. The smaller the “offense” called out the more “woke” the one who calls it out...Exchange word “offense” for blasphemy and “woke” for holy....cancel culture is essentially the mode in which the modern day secular religion of wokeness Expresses itself.
People discover things that cause them to take their support elsewhere. Are you taking umbrage with the opinions of people that you disagree with and how they choose to express those opinions? I didn't think jla-x did that sort of thing.
They can do what they please, it’s a free country. it’s just a funny sociological trend that’s being identified and explored. What I’m saying is that it’s not authentic, and that the true driver is social media likes and a sense of belonging to the wokeness cult.
So we agree that you're just whining and Cancel Culture isn't a real thing.
The problem is when the woke mob begins to dictate their will through violence. Or do you support that?
If it didn’t exist we wouldn’t be talking about it right?
"when the woke mob begins to dictate their will through violence"
Has not happened, worthless to speculate as I disagree with your fear. And you'll inevitable try to tie this all to portland and it'll be bullshit and I don't have the energy to waste on you further today.
What has not happened?
We talk about many things that have titles that aren't real. You know this, but you're being your usual disingenuous self, feigning ignorance when it suits you and only responding to half of what's being discussed. It isn't clever, and it's why I really loathe engaging with you.
Because you are living in a bubble of bs. Violence hasn’t happened? Are you for real? You are ridiculous and blind to anything that rattles your world view. I can attach a ton of articles, including the one about the vandalism in Williamsburg last night and the calls to “murder Bezos” but it’s not worth my time. You are obviously not concerned with reality.
"You are obviously not concerned with reality."
Not your perspective on reality, at any rate. I encourage you to put me on your ignore list.
I don’t have an ignore list. That’s for weak minded mental toddlers. I can handle opposing thoughts. Not a big deal.
Your responses to me up above definitely show that you are not a weak minded mental toddler who can't handle opposing thoughts. Definitely. Yup. No doubt.
woke up pete to the ultra-violence lest ye be cancelled!
word type fab shout the man in the air filled room void
@Donna: I see it as a buzzword that was appropriated by, SURPRISE, some brief form of entertainment. It will come and go like most ephemeral trends. There's a The Daily podcast episode aired on Aug 10, "Cancel Culture, Part 1: Where It Came From" that was enlightening for me.
I think it broadly refers to movements that, at the extreme, seeks to remove all mention of a particular person, event, or object because of a moral infraction on the part of the author.
This discussion (much like PJ himself) is late.
^ The ultimate cancellation.
That doesn’t look like a modernist gravestone.
that would require that he was thinking ahead and considered himself mortal. but he was an architect, so a heart it is.
Somehow find it endearing when people call the Nazi whisperer “PJ”, all I can see now is an old man in his pyjamas and slippers wearing silly glasses.
If you are bored with Philip Johnson, a planned museum dedicated to Le Corbusier is on the edge of the 'memory hole' along with Corb himself (or at least his statue). And so it goes.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com...