I have heard that companies share information regarding unwanted people and even put them on a do-not-hire list.
To your experience, is this true? Do HR or principals share details of people with a bad reputation with other firms? Is there such thing as a blacklist?
I know someone who ended up reneging on the offer of a very well known firm and I can't help but wonder how this would affect their reputation in this very small world of architecture.
Non Sequitur
Apr 28, 20 3:14 pm
I share information on red flag people with a few of my colleagues. It’s a small community and small staff pool.
alicelong
Apr 28, 20 3:22 pm
Are you involved in hiring/interviewing candidates? Can you give examples of kinds of people who in your opinion constitute red flags?
Non Sequitur
Apr 28, 20 3:31 pm
I have influence, yes but I won’t share details here. Generally speaking, issues that I warn, or get warnings of, involve attitude and overblown estimates of skills.
mightyaa
Apr 28, 20 5:21 pm
I have mental blacklist of employees & peers, (products, GC's, subcontractors, owner's reps, etc.) And well, it is a community and when you get together with peers, WTF stories get told, names get dropped, people move to other jobs, and word gets out and spread. A normal 'casual conversation' one for instance might be alcohol/drug issues, massive tantrums, infidelity, etc.. Kind of hard not to tell the one about catching so and so screwing on the roof, or doing coke in the bathroom, or passed out under their desk or the police showing up. Those are stories no one thinks twice about. Other stories happen like NS says; attitude people, crappy managers, unproductive people, and so forth you've let go.
FYI; On the flip side, there are also those stars we praise, or hated seeing them go, had massive potential or would go extra lengths to ensure they land on their feet... that list is longer.
citizen
Apr 28, 20 6:15 pm
Excuse me, but it was screwing in the bathroom and coke on the roof. At least get the facts right. And the cops didn't even make an arrest, so...
archanonymous
Apr 28, 20 6:23 pm
This got me laughing hard, only because it tracks so closely with a real-life occurrence in an office I worked in.
alicelong
Apr 28, 20 6:37 pm
If such things are indeed happening in your offices, then these must be an indication of the quality of your firm. So even if y
alicelong
Apr 28, 20 6:38 pm
So even if word goes around about a particular person, in my opinion that still lowers the firms reputation.
archanonymous
Apr 28, 20 6:49 pm
I'm not sure about that - all workplaces are dysfunctional in different ways. I heard a first-hand account from someone who worked at one of the very tip top european firms and said people were often snorting coke at their desks late into the night to get the energy to keep working.
SneakyPete
Apr 29, 20 12:57 pm
Alice, you might want to buy a smaller horse. The one you're riding looks mighty unstable, and it's really tall.
Non Sequitur
Apr 29, 20 2:26 pm
Jawknee, your name is definitively on my blacklist.
sameolddoctor
Apr 28, 20 3:41 pm
We need to have a blacklist of horrible firms, as our industry is blessed with more than its fair share of them. Hard to do on a site like Archinect as it depends monetarily on job postings etc from many of said firms.
Fancy1118
Apr 28, 20 3:43 pm
AGREED!! I use glassdoor now, but it's not perfect...
alicelong
Apr 28, 20 3:56 pm
I have found that glassdoor is inundated with fake reviews. A friend worked at a firm where the management encouraged staff to leave positive reviews. So the company had a mix of 1 star reviews from disgruntle
d leavers and 5 star made up reviews.
Fancy1118
Apr 28, 20 4:54 pm
woah I had no idea about that. But honestly I should have taking into consideration all the fake amazon reviews I've heard about recently. Thank you for mentioning this.
thisisnotmyname
Apr 28, 20 5:59 pm
I too know of firms where the senior staff jacks Glassdoor by writing fake glowing reviews to offset legitimate bad ones written by their subordinates.
Everyday Architect
Apr 29, 20 2:15 pm
A friend of a friend was looking at making a move to a design-build firm. I don't want to name names so I'll just say that it starts with a "K" and ends in "aterra." The friend told him to look at the employee reviews on Indeed or Glassdoor. The friend of a friend ended up looking elsewhere.
This is overly simplistic, but the reviews were basically either 1 star or 5 star. It's pretty apparent which ones were written by people with an interest in putting forth a good face for the company.
Everyday Architect
Apr 29, 20 3:13 pm
Also, to be clear ... this really was a friend of a friend ... not myself.
Gregory Walker
Apr 28, 20 4:23 pm
No. Creating or maintaining such a list would be felony collusion, along with a ton of other civil and EEOC violations. Not being sarcastic either.
We do not talk about former employees to other employers unless they call asking for a reference. In that case, we give a strict, honest assessment of their skills, positives, and places they can improve.
In your original question - I don't think it would hurt them but architecture is a small, small world. Word could get back around but if they have the goods, they have the goods. I think turned down the job in a very ugly way... perhaps?
threeohdoor
Apr 28, 20 9:16 pm
This guy knows what's up.
gwharton
Apr 29, 20 12:50 pm
Absolutely correct. But that doesn't mean you can't ask revealing questions when checking references. One of my favorites is: Would you personally hire this person again if you had the work to support them? You might be surprised how many times you get a "no" or even "depends" in answer to that.
gwharton
Apr 29, 20 2:01 pm
(To clarify: though "felony collusion" isn't a real thing, EEOC violations are very real and very serious. Be careful what you say on reference checks. You can get sued into oblivion for saying the wrong kinds of things.)
zonker
Apr 28, 20 5:03 pm
not lists per se, but word of mouth - people with bad reps get work, but at "shops" where they either redeem themselves or get worse
randomised
Apr 28, 20 5:07 pm
Poor architects no longer being able to order from Hop Sing's...
Almosthip
Apr 28, 20 5:40 pm
They named names!
randomised
Apr 29, 20 1:58 pm
;-)
archanonymous
Apr 28, 20 5:36 pm
In my market (which is a large city in the US but still feels very small in this profession) word only gets around if you are exceptionally good, or abysmally bad, especially if you do anything inappropriate. Otherwise nobody really talks, they are all too busy and don't care about little ol you.
I've known many terrible architects, dishonest, flaky people, other personality and professional defects, and as of a few months ago all of them were still gainfully employed.
alicelong
Apr 28, 20 5:53 pm
What would be the abysmally bad inappropriate things for example?
archanonymous
Apr 28, 20 6:19 pm
Sexual harassment, inappropriate comments, alcoholism, other miscellaneous substance abuse, untreated mental health issues, workplace violence, etc...
archanonymous
Apr 28, 20 6:21 pm
Occasionally you hear "so-and-so royally fucked x thing up on a project, isn't that funny/ terrible/ tragic." but it is more in passing than a way to actually track who is good and bad.
Almosthip
Apr 28, 20 5:39 pm
We defiantly black list GC's and share our information with other firms
thisisnotmyname
Apr 28, 20 6:12 pm
I have a list of developers, GCs and subs we know to be problematic. Up until COVID, the architects in my town were so competitive and desperate for staff that I'm not sure anybody was sharing info about job candidates.
Decades ago, I do know that the local old boy network of architects did share peoples' resumes with one another and did so without the applicants' permission. I always thought this was wrong because resumes are supposed to be sent in confidence.
midlander
Apr 28, 20 6:36 pm
to the OP question, no one is going to care if your friend reneged on an offer. possibly that firm will be reluctant to consider him again, but in current circumstances it could be explained. i've read plenty of news pieces recently of senior candidates who moved for an accepted job offer in march only to have it pulled once the pandemic started - so companies do this flaky stuff too.
as others note, there is no record of blacklisted names but it's a small world and everyone talks to everyone else to get around the HR info block.
my 2 favs:
the guy who got fired for hitting a firm owner during an argument. this owner was an infamously abusive character, and no one doubts he deserved it. the individual was hired by a big firm and got a small boost to his reputation for standing up for himself.
a guy we got super glowing recommendations for despite his very brief time at firm B. chatting through the network, found out he had left his wife for the HR manager at firm B and needed to get out fast.
OddArchitect
Apr 29, 20 2:52 pm
When I was a student intern a project manager was explaining what he wanted me to do on a project so I began taking notes. The PM grabbed the pencil out of my hand and jabbed me in the forehead with his finger and said 'if you can't remember this type of stuff you shouldn't be an architect'. I grabbed his finger, bent it back, and told him never to touch me again. I then found a new firm to work for at nearly double the pay. Apparently the other interns in the office saw this and it got around town that I stood up for myself and that's why my new boss had hired me, 'cuz I had guts'.
Taso
Apr 28, 20 9:21 pm
One time my favorite boss asked me for his friend in different office if I know the person who I worked with in my previous firm. I asked him back if he truly likes his friend. He said yes. So, I told him the truth. If he said no, I would have said to hire her.
I have heard that companies share information regarding unwanted people and even put them on a do-not-hire list.
To your experience, is this true? Do HR or principals share details of people with a bad reputation with other firms? Is there such thing as a blacklist?
I know someone who ended up reneging on the offer of a very well known firm and I can't help but wonder how this would affect their reputation in this very small world of architecture.
I share information on red flag people with a few of my colleagues. It’s a small community and small staff pool.
Are you involved in hiring/interviewing candidates? Can you give examples of kinds of people who in your opinion constitute red flags?
I have influence, yes but I won’t share details here. Generally speaking, issues that I warn, or get warnings of, involve attitude and overblown estimates of skills.
I have mental blacklist of employees & peers, (products, GC's, subcontractors, owner's reps, etc.) And well, it is a community and when you get together with peers, WTF stories get told, names get dropped, people move to other jobs, and word gets out and spread. A normal 'casual conversation' one for instance might be alcohol/drug issues, massive tantrums, infidelity, etc.. Kind of hard not to tell the one about catching so and so screwing on the roof, or doing coke in the bathroom, or passed out under their desk or the police showing up. Those are stories no one thinks twice about. Other stories happen like NS says; attitude people, crappy managers, unproductive people, and so forth you've let go. FYI; On the flip side, there are also those stars we praise, or hated seeing them go, had massive potential or would go extra lengths to ensure they land on their feet... that list is longer.
Excuse me, but it was screwing in the bathroom and coke on the roof. At least get the facts right. And the cops didn't even make an arrest, so...
This got me laughing hard, only because it tracks so closely with a real-life occurrence in an office I worked in.
If such things are indeed happening in your offices, then these must be an indication of the quality of your firm. So even if y
So even if word goes around about a particular person, in my opinion that still lowers the firms reputation.
I'm not sure about that - all workplaces are dysfunctional in different ways. I heard a first-hand account from someone who worked at one of the very tip top european firms and said people were often snorting coke at their desks late into the night to get the energy to keep working.
Alice, you might want to buy a smaller horse. The one you're riding looks mighty unstable, and it's really tall.
Jawknee, your name is definitively on my blacklist.
We need to have a blacklist of horrible firms, as our industry is blessed with more than its fair share of them. Hard to do on a site like Archinect as it depends monetarily on job postings etc from many of said firms.
AGREED!! I use glassdoor now, but it's not perfect...
I have found that glassdoor is inundated with fake reviews. A friend worked at a firm where the management encouraged staff to leave positive reviews. So the company had a mix of 1 star reviews from disgruntle
d leavers and 5 star made up reviews.
woah I had no idea about that. But honestly I should have taking into consideration all the fake amazon reviews I've heard about recently. Thank you for mentioning this.
I too know of firms where the senior staff jacks Glassdoor by writing fake glowing reviews to offset legitimate bad ones written by their subordinates.
A friend of a friend was looking at making a move to a design-build firm. I don't want to name names so I'll just say that it starts with a "K" and ends in "aterra." The friend told him to look at the employee reviews on Indeed or Glassdoor. The friend of a friend ended up looking elsewhere.
This is overly simplistic, but the reviews were basically either 1 star or 5 star. It's pretty apparent which ones were written by people with an interest in putting forth a good face for the company.
Also, to be clear ... this really was a friend of a friend ... not myself.
No. Creating or maintaining such a list would be felony collusion, along with a ton of other civil and EEOC violations. Not being sarcastic either.
We do not talk about former employees to other employers unless they call asking for a reference. In that case, we give a strict, honest assessment of their skills, positives, and places they can improve.
In your original question - I don't think it would hurt them but architecture is a small, small world. Word could get back around but if they have the goods, they have the goods. I think turned down the job in a very ugly way... perhaps?
This guy knows what's up.
Absolutely correct. But that doesn't mean you can't ask revealing questions when checking references. One of my favorites is: Would you personally hire this person again if you had the work to support them? You might be surprised how many times you get a "no" or even "depends" in answer to that.
(To clarify: though "felony collusion" isn't a real thing, EEOC violations are very real and very serious. Be careful what you say on reference checks. You can get sued into oblivion for saying the wrong kinds of things.)
not lists per se, but word of mouth - people with bad reps get work, but at "shops" where they either redeem themselves or get worse
Poor architects no longer being able to order from Hop Sing's...
They named names!
;-)
In my market (which is a large city in the US but still feels very small in this profession) word only gets around if you are exceptionally good, or abysmally bad, especially if you do anything inappropriate. Otherwise nobody really talks, they are all too busy and don't care about little ol you.
I've known many terrible architects, dishonest, flaky people, other personality and professional defects, and as of a few months ago all of them were still gainfully employed.
What would be the abysmally bad inappropriate things for example?
Sexual harassment, inappropriate comments, alcoholism, other miscellaneous substance abuse, untreated mental health issues, workplace violence, etc...
Occasionally you hear "so-and-so royally fucked x thing up on a project, isn't that funny/ terrible/ tragic." but it is more in passing than a way to actually track who is good and bad.
We defiantly black list GC's and share our information with other firms
I have a list of developers, GCs and subs we know to be problematic. Up until COVID, the architects in my town were so competitive and desperate for staff that I'm not sure anybody was sharing info about job candidates.
Decades ago, I do know that the local old boy network of architects did share peoples' resumes with one another and did so without the applicants' permission. I always thought this was wrong because resumes are supposed to be sent in confidence.
to the OP question, no one is going to care if your friend reneged on an offer. possibly that firm will be reluctant to consider him again, but in current circumstances it could be explained. i've read plenty of news pieces recently of senior candidates who moved for an accepted job offer in march only to have it pulled once the pandemic started - so companies do this flaky stuff too.
as others note, there is no record of blacklisted names but it's a small world and everyone talks to everyone else to get around the HR info block.
my 2 favs:
the guy who got fired for hitting a firm owner during an argument. this owner was an infamously abusive character, and no one doubts he deserved it. the individual was hired by a big firm and got a small boost to his reputation for standing up for himself.
a guy we got super glowing recommendations for despite his very brief time at firm B. chatting through the network, found out he had left his wife for the HR manager at firm B and needed to get out fast.
When I was a student intern a project manager was explaining what he wanted me to do on a project so I began taking notes. The PM grabbed the pencil out of my hand and jabbed me in the forehead with his finger and said 'if you can't remember this type of stuff you shouldn't be an architect'. I grabbed his finger, bent it back, and told him never to touch me again. I then found a new firm to work for at nearly double the pay. Apparently the other interns in the office saw this and it got around town that I stood up for myself and that's why my new boss had hired me, 'cuz I had guts'.
One time my favorite boss asked me for his friend in different office if I know the person who I worked with in my previous firm. I asked him back if he truly likes his friend. He said yes. So, I told him the truth.
If he said no, I would have said to hire her.