The Architecture Salary Poll in my opinion has been extremely successful over 15+/- years? Especially in allowing young people entering the market in their area to know what they should expect and ask for and I would suggest indirectly this helped push better treatment of employees forward.
SO
Can you do this with Architecture Fee Schedules?
Ancient Sheds
Apr 18, 20 10:21 am
quick theory on an Anonymous Union of Pricing Agreement based on Post-Data:
Although a Profession cannot have a Union (more of less) - Anti-Trust Law, linked to AIA doc here andlink to AIA summary here , we can make determinations with historical data which in the past was not as available nor as trusted nor as expediently available in a public forum (the internet).
This is all post-data. Data after the fact, but you could assemble this post data at a much faster rate like HomeAdvisor, keep it anonymous like the poll, but break it down into categories like the first two links do or your Salary Poll did in general. So that the next time I go up for a job I have little experience in I know what the others charge. How do you get experience in work you've never done before? Well most would underbid either intentionally or without the knowledge of what is actually involved to say execute an Airport (assuming you have never done one), hence the age old - 10%, we just charge 10% on everything - because we don't actually know.
It's not a Union if we are all just reading the papers.
You could also do or accidentally allow (like wikileaks) what insidearch.org did same time your poll was around which pretty much tabloid manner allowed exploiting the exploiters but I think was eventually hacked or shutdown?
How many times have your potential clients showed you other professionals fee proposals? You could report those as well. Fill in poll, fee proposal by others at such and such rates.
How many cities allow you to confirm who eventually filed the job? You could even list, I bid this but lost, was too high. You could report fee proposals that lost as well.
You may also wonder, would an architect really tell other architects what they are charging to for a job many might be up against? This is pretty much how the Salary Poll used to happen in bars. "Well I work for big douch bag and actually get paid!" (not telling truth) and other person goes "Well I work never heard of him but I have health insurances and make a little less than you." (telling the truth). The latter always goes home and wonders - "What am I doing with my life?"....The former usually changes careers, all was bullshit anyway...
Gregory Walker
Apr 18, 20 11:56 am
Hi @Ancient - thanks for the h/t. One thing to understand about the AIA's fee schedule history: the AIA was singled out in the early 1970's to be a 'test case' for the Department of Justice, who was looking at a variety of professional organizations as potentially "stifling competition". The AIA's fee guide at the time was just that - a guide, that ranked project types and corresponding fee percentages, largely tied to complexity and size. The applicability of the fee schedules worked like the one the Realtor (brand organization, not just any broker) group still uses - it was a minimum that a member in good standing could take to do the work. It absolutely was designed to protect architect's from racing each other to the bottom on fees.
After the DOJ pursued charges against the AIA (who, really, was probably picked on because we don't donate as much politically as the Bar Association, Realtors, or just about anyone else), they entered into an agreement whereby they would drop the requirement to adhere to the schedule and would cease to publish the schedules. About a decade later, a single AIA chapter accidentally mailed out a copy of their old schedules to members, triggering the DOJ to come down like a bag of bricks on the AIA for violating the agreement. The fine that the AIA paid to settle that case nearly bankrupted it. Since then, it's been beyond taboo to talk about fees within AIA, something that is rather unfortunate. However, anyone outside AIA can openly discuss fees - and AIA members can certainly discuss fees outside the formal organizational setting - and there's plenty of management companies that research fees and will gladly share their intel for a price. There's plenty of books with good, solid practices to generate more revenue as a design firm.
None of the above would have any bearing on whether unions could be started within architecture firms. It's just not going to happen. In the same way it won't happen with doctors, lawyers, etc.
So, if you're really interested in knowing how to negotiate better fees, knowing what your competitors charge is helpful but knowing your own value proposition is much better.
As a side, closing note - many state agencies still have fee schedules that are largely derived from the old AIA schedules. There's absolutely nothing prohibiting their use by a state, which is a horrific injustice in that most of them are set so low as to make negotiations back to something more reasonable difficult at best. If you want to see on example, look here.
Ancient Sheds
Apr 18, 20 12:21 pm
Gregory thank you for your response which is very much appreciated.
Although licensed in many states I am not a member of the AIA nor will I ever be unless they could help with establishing fees. I'm not suggesting a club or organization but an entity that lists the data as free information to anyone that anyone could source.
For Example: Recreate the old AIA schedules as a "platform" like wiki's or "app" that accumulates data that any one can enter the information into and source the information from. (Good Idea actually, thanks).
Can the DOJ go after Artificial Intelligence? Well yes, if they find someone behind it they have jurisdiction over, if they don't you ask Sweden to press charges or something and then that person hides out in an Embassy in a big city, I digress....
My point was: Archinect's Salary poll is simple, anonymous, and straight forward. Do same for architecture fees.
The guidelines I list and yourself are long and lengthy in the form of "advice" and not FIXED "data". Determining the type of project and delivery method is the "complex" part, the rest is straight forward.
If HomeAdvisor can do it, why can't architects? There needs to be simple accessible to all metric that encourages control (if not stated at least philosophically anonymously). This was my point about the Salary Poll, it has indeed caused change as an anonymous agent of information. Thank you again for help.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 18, 20 9:43 pm
I've used this to gain a better understanding of how to consider fees, I think it's really helpful.
Ancient Sheds
Apr 18, 20 10:46 pm
beta, I list your link. It's advise, not a schedule.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 19, 20 4:19 am
Six pages in there's two pages of fee percentages for different project types. I've used that and the remainder of the guide to help me consider fees, but the Canadians do have a schedule, it costs money to get it I believe.
Ancient Sheds
Apr 19, 20 9:25 am
Very helpful Beta, thank you. Didn't occur to me either that the DOJ would obviously not apply to Canada who is right next to us and would have a similar market. Going to look into this more. Again, thank you sir.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 18, 20 3:25 pm
Home advisor is fake news. An architect costs 8-10% of construction costs yet averages $5,000. Where do houses cost $50,000?
Ancient Sheds
Apr 18, 20 4:18 pm
$50k/$175 turn key construction is a 285 sq.ft. addition. That's very common when doing a 203k loan, construction loan, or refinancing when doing an addition. In some states you wouldn't even need an architect. Where I'm at you do. It's very easy work, since everyone watches HGTV you basically do a permitting set, some minor engineering and call it a day. Drawings sets can range from 1 sheet to 5 for an addition with pretty much copy paste material which is identical to the IRC details. I know, I'm on Home Advisor.
It is worth noting that Home Advisor is a much better indicator of reality than the media (yellow journalists). While the media will tell you we will all die soon if we go outside, I've been getting 4+ leads week in a hot zone including restaurants. In other words, yes we know the hospitals are overloaded, but we will all be back at work soon. The disparity between real humans who work and have money and the media is hilarious.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 18, 20 5:08 pm
yeah, reality is home advisor will make up fake leads and charge you for them
Ancient Sheds
Apr 18, 20 5:22 pm
No Home Advisor doesn't do that, it's competition. I have experienced that a few times, I ask for my money back and get it. Tintt your statement is called - Fake News ;)
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 19, 20 11:25 am
You ever get a lead from a 5 year old? Or get the same exact quite specific lead 16 times but with the name different? I appreciate your thoughts tho. ;)
The Architecture Salary Poll in my opinion has been extremely successful over 15+/- years? Especially in allowing young people entering the market in their area to know what they should expect and ask for and I would suggest indirectly this helped push better treatment of employees forward.
SO
Can you do this with Architecture Fee Schedules?
quick theory on an Anonymous Union of Pricing Agreement based on Post-Data:
Although a Profession cannot have a Union (more of less) - Anti-Trust Law, linked to AIA doc here andlink to AIA summary here , we can make determinations with historical data which in the past was not as available nor as trusted nor as expediently available in a public forum (the internet).
Here are some sources that are out there:
Determining Appropriate Fees for the Services of an Architect
http://architecturalfees.com/
Home Advisor
and the Mal-Practice blog on Archinect (this link is a really good one)
This is all post-data. Data after the fact, but you could assemble this post data at a much faster rate like HomeAdvisor, keep it anonymous like the poll, but break it down into categories like the first two links do or your Salary Poll did in general. So that the next time I go up for a job I have little experience in I know what the others charge. How do you get experience in work you've never done before? Well most would underbid either intentionally or without the knowledge of what is actually involved to say execute an Airport (assuming you have never done one), hence the age old - 10%, we just charge 10% on everything - because we don't actually know.
It's not a Union if we are all just reading the papers.
You could also do or accidentally allow (like wikileaks) what insidearch.org did same time your poll was around which pretty much tabloid manner allowed exploiting the exploiters but I think was eventually hacked or shutdown?
How many times have your potential clients showed you other professionals fee proposals? You could report those as well. Fill in poll, fee proposal by others at such and such rates.
How many cities allow you to confirm who eventually filed the job? You could even list, I bid this but lost, was too high. You could report fee proposals that lost as well.
You may also wonder, would an architect really tell other architects what they are charging to for a job many might be up against? This is pretty much how the Salary Poll used to happen in bars. "Well I work for big douch bag and actually get paid!" (not telling truth) and other person goes "Well I work never heard of him but I have health insurances and make a little less than you." (telling the truth). The latter always goes home and wonders - "What am I doing with my life?"....The former usually changes careers, all was bullshit anyway...
Hi @Ancient - thanks for the h/t. One thing to understand about the AIA's fee schedule history: the AIA was singled out in the early 1970's to be a 'test case' for the Department of Justice, who was looking at a variety of professional organizations as potentially "stifling competition". The AIA's fee guide at the time was just that - a guide, that ranked project types and corresponding fee percentages, largely tied to complexity and size. The applicability of the fee schedules worked like the one the Realtor (brand organization, not just any broker) group still uses - it was a minimum that a member in good standing could take to do the work. It absolutely was designed to protect architect's from racing each other to the bottom on fees.
After the DOJ pursued charges against the AIA (who, really, was probably picked on because we don't donate as much politically as the Bar Association, Realtors, or just about anyone else), they entered into an agreement whereby they would drop the requirement to adhere to the schedule and would cease to publish the schedules. About a decade later, a single AIA chapter accidentally mailed out a copy of their old schedules to members, triggering the DOJ to come down like a bag of bricks on the AIA for violating the agreement. The fine that the AIA paid to settle that case nearly bankrupted it. Since then, it's been beyond taboo to talk about fees within AIA, something that is rather unfortunate. However, anyone outside AIA can openly discuss fees - and AIA members can certainly discuss fees outside the formal organizational setting - and there's plenty of management companies that research fees and will gladly share their intel for a price. There's plenty of books with good, solid practices to generate more revenue as a design firm.
None of the above would have any bearing on whether unions could be started within architecture firms. It's just not going to happen. In the same way it won't happen with doctors, lawyers, etc.
So, if you're really interested in knowing how to negotiate better fees, knowing what your competitors charge is helpful but knowing your own value proposition is much better.
As a side, closing note - many state agencies still have fee schedules that are largely derived from the old AIA schedules. There's absolutely nothing prohibiting their use by a state, which is a horrific injustice in that most of them are set so low as to make negotiations back to something more reasonable difficult at best. If you want to see on example, look here.
Gregory thank you for your response which is very much appreciated.
Although licensed in many states I am not a member of the AIA nor will I ever be unless they could help with establishing fees. I'm not suggesting a club or organization but an entity that lists the data as free information to anyone that anyone could source.
For Example: Recreate the old AIA schedules as a "platform" like wiki's or "app" that accumulates data that any one can enter the information into and source the information from. (Good Idea actually, thanks).
Can the DOJ go after Artificial Intelligence? Well yes, if they find someone behind it they have jurisdiction over, if they don't you ask Sweden to press charges or something and then that person hides out in an Embassy in a big city, I digress....
My point was: Archinect's Salary poll is simple, anonymous, and straight forward. Do same for architecture fees.
The guidelines I list and yourself are long and lengthy in the form of "advice" and not FIXED "data". Determining the type of project and delivery method is the "complex" part, the rest is straight forward.
If HomeAdvisor can do it, why can't architects? There needs to be simple accessible to all metric that encourages control (if not stated at least philosophically anonymously). This was my point about the Salary Poll, it has indeed caused change as an anonymous agent of information. Thank you again for help.
I've used this to gain a better understanding of how to consider fees, I think it's really helpful.
beta, I list your link. It's advise, not a schedule.
Six pages in there's two pages of fee percentages for different project types. I've used that and the remainder of the guide to help me consider fees, but the Canadians do have a schedule, it costs money to get it I believe.
Very helpful Beta, thank you. Didn't occur to me either that the DOJ would obviously not apply to Canada who is right next to us and would have a similar market. Going to look into this more. Again, thank you sir.
Home advisor is fake news. An architect costs 8-10% of construction costs yet averages $5,000. Where do houses cost $50,000?
$50k/$175 turn key construction is a 285 sq.ft. addition. That's very common when doing a 203k loan, construction loan, or refinancing when doing an addition. In some states you wouldn't even need an architect. Where I'm at you do. It's very easy work, since everyone watches HGTV you basically do a permitting set, some minor engineering and call it a day. Drawings sets can range from 1 sheet to 5 for an addition with pretty much copy paste material which is identical to the IRC details. I know, I'm on Home Advisor.
Another reason I would guess the average is low is many times all the home owner needs is a sealed letter stating the home made rear deck is to code or there is a minor structural repair required or my favorite I sealed this system - pretty cool actually - https://www.nashdistribution.com/our-products/by-industry/foundation-repair/spring-loaded-foundation-support-systems/the-force/bracket-system.html
home advisor is a scam
meh, made $100k+ off their leads.
It is worth noting that Home Advisor is a much better indicator of reality than the media (yellow journalists). While the media will tell you we will all die soon if we go outside, I've been getting 4+ leads week in a hot zone including restaurants. In other words, yes we know the hospitals are overloaded, but we will all be back at work soon. The disparity between real humans who work and have money and the media is hilarious.
yeah, reality is home advisor will make up fake leads and charge you for them
No Home Advisor doesn't do that, it's competition. I have experienced that a few times, I ask for my money back and get it. Tintt your statement is called - Fake News ;)
You ever get a lead from a 5 year old? Or get the same exact quite specific lead 16 times but with the name different? I appreciate your thoughts tho. ;)
Yes, and all refundable.