I have a copy of the 2020 Hays salary guide for Canada, which includes figures for architects. I was wondering if theses salaries are accurate because the salaries in the Archinect salary survey always seem much lower. I've attached the salary info as an image for comparison.
Also, how long does it usually take for a (highly motivated) intern to become a licensed architect? I know it varies, but just rough estimates or anecdotal evidence would be helpful.
Non Sequitur
May 18, 20 5:18 pm
Hey, I got your PM. Not sure how/why I missed this discussing when you originally posted it, but here we are.
To your main point, the numbers listed in the typical and high category are very optimistic, especially in the intern category. Fresh M.arch grads can expect 40 to 55 across most of canada based on their experience and billable skills. 75k to 90k is laughably incorrect... licensed architects don't even bring that much unless they are in the 12-15y exp range (not including profit shares or bonuses) or are very specialized. Basically, all the numbers in the low table is what I see. The problem is that there are too many graduates across all departments (M.Arch, Int Des, Arch Tech, BIM PM, etc) that really waters down the entry salaries. Does not help that most M.arch grads don't have the same billable skills as a college tech. Their compensation ceiling is lower tho, but they are much more useful in an office setting for the first few years than the average M.Arch grad. Blame academia for this one... but then again, Canadians don't have the same tuition fee or health insurance premiums to worry about compared to the US.
As for your second question, it's a minimum of 3y to get all your hours reviewed and the exams are only offered once a year... so 3 to 5y is the range to complete the intern portion... but you really have to read the IDP documents and understand how to triage your experience hours. Some categories could easily take 2y to complete while you accumulate 10-times the max hours in another categories.
Hope this helps.
square.
May 19, 20 2:48 pm
interesting. my (march) peers and i were getting 50-60k usd upon graduationa bit ago
Bench
May 19, 20 3:50 pm
Is that in the states though? I find US-CA comparisons difficult to make due to universal healthcare becoming a factor.
Bench
May 19, 20 3:52 pm
For the record - my experience matches closely to NS, the "lower" end of this salary scale was the most common across the board last time I worked in Canada. My friends/fellow graduates were the same from my discussions.
Non Sequitur
May 19, 20 4:46 pm
square, this is in Canadian dollars. It may significantly less than the US market but there are different economical and political forces at play. Also worth noting that we don't carry 6-figure student debt. For example, a $75k CAD/year salary when in the 10y licensed arch category is about average in commercial practice. Give or take another 10k depending on location.
bowling_ball
May 19, 20 9:30 pm
I second what NS is saying. The low to mid tier is typical from what I see. And salaries haven't gone up in at least a decade, which is pretty depressing. They won't be going up for some time again either, as employers will have an abundance of recruits due to recent layoffs.
whistler
May 19, 20 2:29 pm
I think the qualifier that is missing is the size of firm. Large firms have a better ability to perhaps offer better wages, also expect that the type of work is more corporate / institutional ( IE Stantec ). At least that was always the way when I was starting out looking for work. Smaller boutique firms will offer lower wages but usually have more interesting work and will hold out for interesting work in lieu of taking projects just for cash flow ( IE Patkau ). There is some middle ground too where a firm might have some specialization or unique attributes where they are the "go to" firm for certain project types and can offer secure employment and maybe a good base salary and a better than average year end bonus.
I would also encourage you to think about what you are after in the professional.... money or personal development or interesting satisfying work. Negotiating the process to find satisfaction in the profession requires you to assess the dilemma of creative satisfaction or financial success or both?
Non Sequitur
May 19, 20 2:39 pm
I got a PM from the OP asking my opinion on the chart hence the slight resurrection of the April thread. It's important to note that data in the chart is from a staffing company that probably targets the larger A&E or multi-national offices who likely, as you say, can offer higher entry wages.
whistler
May 19, 20 2:50 pm
T
his thread brought me back to my first job after graduating.... go for the money to pay back my student loan or work in the respected firm that did cool shit!
Non Sequitur
May 19, 20 3:02 pm
I remember very well when I first started looking for a real job post M.arch (summer 2009) and networked my way into the office of the principle of one of the top design firms in my city. Interview went well and we talked Gaudi, abstract painting, and did a little design charrette on the spot. Was offered a full time job at $12cad/hr... You should have seen his face when I rebuffed it on the spot (minimum wage was $10/hr back then). Was offered a counter at 15/hr a few days later but turned it down. I had my desired number in another office a few days later. Was not in a high design office but I was not going to start a career at slightly better than minimum just because of the name on the office door.
whistler
May 19, 20 3:21 pm
So I graduated in 1989! and was offered a job in one of my profs offices ( corporate condo style office but did some cool large towers ) I asked for $15/ hr and got it and thought I had made it! I worked two days and realized that everyone in the office hated their jobs and hated the projects the corporate culture absolutely sucked ... I quit after two days and went and worked for two guys I knew who were home designers for $14/hr and did some fun renovations, small homes and had a great summer. Left after work got thin and worked for a big designer for less than peanuts $1000/mo left after 4 months (I was going in to debt further working for them wtf! ) Went and
worked for a small firm who had good variety of projects and paid me $15/hr. Took a year of work experience to get back to my original starting wage.
kenchiku
May 19, 20 7:37 pm
would absolutely love to land a gig at patkau after graduating
kenchiku
May 20, 20 1:59 pm
@cyrus Nice! One less person to compete with.
Archinect
May 19, 20 2:37 pm
Canadian salaries reported architects from Archinect's Salary Poll:
it's curious to me that the relative difference between different positions varies between cities. obviously the overall cost will vary but i would have expected the value of an architect relative to project manager to be constant. makes me wonder how reliable the data is, if it's just a noisy small sample in some cities.
I have a copy of the 2020 Hays salary guide for Canada, which includes figures for architects. I was wondering if theses salaries are accurate because the salaries in the Archinect salary survey always seem much lower. I've attached the salary info as an image for comparison.
Also, how long does it usually take for a (highly motivated) intern to become a licensed architect? I know it varies, but just rough estimates or anecdotal evidence would be helpful.
Hey, I got your PM. Not sure how/why I missed this discussing when you originally posted it, but here we are.
To your main point, the numbers listed in the typical and high category are very optimistic, especially in the intern category. Fresh M.arch grads can expect 40 to 55 across most of canada based on their experience and billable skills. 75k to 90k is laughably incorrect... licensed architects don't even bring that much unless they are in the 12-15y exp range (not including profit shares or bonuses) or are very specialized. Basically, all the numbers in the low table is what I see. The problem is that there are too many graduates across all departments (M.Arch, Int Des, Arch Tech, BIM PM, etc) that really waters down the entry salaries. Does not help that most M.arch grads don't have the same billable skills as a college tech. Their compensation ceiling is lower tho, but they are much more useful in an office setting for the first few years than the average M.Arch grad. Blame academia for this one... but then again, Canadians don't have the same tuition fee or health insurance premiums to worry about compared to the US.
As for your second question, it's a minimum of 3y to get all your hours reviewed and the exams are only offered once a year... so 3 to 5y is the range to complete the intern portion... but you really have to read the IDP documents and understand how to triage your experience hours. Some categories could easily take 2y to complete while you accumulate 10-times the max hours in another categories.
Hope this helps.
interesting. my (march) peers and i were getting 50-60k usd upon graduationa bit ago
Is that in the states though? I find US-CA comparisons difficult to make due to universal healthcare becoming a factor.
For the record - my experience matches closely to NS, the "lower" end of this salary scale was the most common across the board last time I worked in Canada. My friends/fellow graduates were the same from my discussions.
square, this is in Canadian dollars. It may significantly less than the US market but there are different economical and political forces at play. Also worth noting that we don't carry 6-figure student debt. For example, a $75k CAD/year salary when in the 10y licensed arch category is about average in commercial practice. Give or take another 10k depending on location.
I second what NS is saying. The low to mid tier is typical from what I see. And salaries haven't gone up in at least a decade, which is pretty depressing. They won't be going up for some time again either, as employers will have an abundance of recruits due to recent layoffs.
I think the qualifier that is missing is the size of firm. Large firms have a better ability to perhaps offer better wages, also expect that the type of work is more corporate / institutional ( IE Stantec ). At least that was always the way when I was starting out looking for work. Smaller boutique firms will offer lower wages but usually have more interesting work and will hold out for interesting work in lieu of taking projects just for cash flow ( IE Patkau ). There is some middle ground too where a firm might have some specialization or unique attributes where they are the "go to" firm for certain project types and can offer secure employment and maybe a good base salary and a better than average year end bonus.
I would also encourage you to think about what you are after in the professional.... money or personal development or interesting satisfying work. Negotiating the process to find satisfaction in the profession requires you to assess the dilemma of creative satisfaction or financial success or both?
I got a PM from the OP asking my opinion on the chart hence the slight resurrection of the April thread. It's important to note that data in the chart is from a staffing company that probably targets the larger A&E or multi-national offices who likely, as you say, can offer higher entry wages.
T his thread brought me back to my first job after graduating.... go for the money to pay back my student loan or work in the respected firm that did cool shit!
I remember very well when I first started looking for a real job post M.arch (summer 2009) and networked my way into the office of the principle of one of the top design firms in my city. Interview went well and we talked Gaudi, abstract painting, and did a little design charrette on the spot. Was offered a full time job at $12cad/hr... You should have seen his face when I rebuffed it on the spot (minimum wage was $10/hr back then). Was offered a counter at 15/hr a few days later but turned it down. I had my desired number in another office a few days later. Was not in a high design office but I was not going to start a career at slightly better than minimum just because of the name on the office door.
So I graduated in 1989! and was offered a job in one of my profs offices ( corporate condo style office but did some cool large towers ) I asked for $15/ hr and got it and thought I had made it! I worked two days and realized that everyone in the office hated their jobs and hated the projects the corporate culture absolutely sucked ... I quit after two days and went and worked for two guys I knew who were home designers for $14/hr and did some fun renovations, small homes and had a great summer. Left after work got thin and worked for a big designer for less than peanuts $1000/mo left after 4 months (I was going in to debt further working for them wtf! ) Went and worked for a small firm who had good variety of projects and paid me $15/hr. Took a year of work experience to get back to my original starting wage.
would absolutely love to land a gig at patkau after graduating
@cyrus Nice! One less person to compete with.
Canadian salaries reported architects from Archinect's Salary Poll:
https://salaries.archinect.com/poll/results/country/canada
it's curious to me that the relative difference between different positions varies between cities. obviously the overall cost will vary but i would have expected the value of an architect relative to project manager to be constant. makes me wonder how reliable the data is, if it's just a noisy small sample in some cities.