I've been working in architecture for about 12 years and have been practicing on my own for the last 2 years. For better or worse, I look young (i.e. recent graduate) and in walkthroughs with potential clients I get the feeling that they don't want to work with me because I look so young even though I am qualified. Usually, they are older than me, and in fact, many have commented directly to my face "you look so young!". Afterwards, I end up never hearing from them again which makes me think they don't think I can get the job done because of how young I look.
I'm curious if any of you have faced a similar issue when starting your practice and how did you deal with it?
I like to think I carry myself professionally and come prepared for interviews, but it's a bummer when potential clients can't see past the visuals...
archi_dude
Jan 7, 20 9:45 pm
Omg. Is this really where our society is at?
leonizer
Jan 8, 20 8:36 am
I don't have my own practice, and I suppose it shouldn't be an issue if you have built up a decent portfolio.
But I also look young partly due to the curse and blessing of my asian genetics. Once I had a site super call me a kid during a site meeting. I had to tell him, Ok boomer, don't ever call me a kid again. He immediately stop talking and I never had a issue with him again afterwards.
SneakyPete
Jan 8, 20 12:24 pm
I hope you didn't literally say "OK, boomer." The world would be a much better place if caustic memes didn't pierce the veil into real life.
SneakyPete
Jan 8, 20 12:24 pm
(Not a boomer)
tduds
Jan 8, 20 12:38 pm
I've had a couple people try to pull "son" on me in meetings / site walks. I just start responding with "old man" and it usually shuts them up.
Wood Guy
Jan 8, 20 1:17 pm
"OK Boomer" has transcended the meme world because it so efficiently captures everything wrong with that generation. If they are acting like a Boomer, it's OK to call them out on it. (I'm a Gen Xer so I don't really exist anyway.)
Bench
Jan 8, 20 1:32 pm
Ya, when I hear a boomer complain about 'age discrimination' my eyes tend to glaze over pretty fast.
SneakyPete
Jan 8, 20 1:43 pm
I'm not arguing against the idea, and while I hate trite shit in general, internet trite shit is worse. Again, I'm not a boomer and really like working with people of all ages.
Wood Guy
Jan 8, 20 8:51 am
There is a good chance that you're right; with age comes experience, and for better or worse, potential clients will include their perception of your experience level in their decision making process. Are most of your potential clients older than you? How much older? What is the focus of your practice?
I've found that doing residential design there are some demographics I just don't do well with, and others that I do great with, so I focus more on the potential projects that are more likely to be successful.
small
Jan 8, 20 6:26 pm
It really varies. I'm in my mid-30s and most of my clients are either my age and up. I work in single-family residential and have had more luck getting jobs from people my age or thereabouts. That said, I'm also a minority and I do think that the more successful projects I've worked on have less to do with the clients age and more to do with their willingness to new ideas and experimentation. I get the sense that a lot of people out there still have an outdated view of an architect.
Bench
Jan 8, 20 9:17 am
In a separate/prior career, I ran into a similar situation where I was promoted through the ranks quicker than normal. The result was that I occupied a position of seniority while clearly looking quite young compared to those around me.
My solution was to literally grow out my facial hair more deliberately (yep, for real) - and it did work, the results were fairly obvious. Directly less questions to my authority/qualifications. And I really dislike having facial hair...
Volunteer
Jan 8, 20 12:49 pm
Ya gotta have a hat, serape, facial hair, and a cheroot. Boots help also. Maybe play the theme from A Fistfull of Dollars in the office. Probably won't need the gun, unless the client is habitually late paying.
robhaw
Jan 8, 20 1:01 pm
My experience is the inverse. I faced age discrimination as an employee or job seeker.
I was a mature student at college and after graduation several people would make unsolicited questions about my age and raise their eyebrows, either at work or during interviews, despite the evident high quality of my portfolio and skills (I was a first class degree graduate).
I don't know if I lost any positions as a result of this, but I made sure that I kept working very hard and disregarded the prejudiced people.
In regards to your experience, I have heard junior architects complaining at times that they are not taken as seriously by contractors, due to their young age.
small
Jan 8, 20 6:31 pm
In some ways, that's why I started working for myself because I could not see myself being promoted or representing the firm as a PM. I've learned so much more working on my own dealing directly with clients, contractors, and consultants that I think even if I don't work on projects with large budgets, I'm still gaining a lot of valuable experience that I otherwise might not have been able to get.
thatsthat
Jan 8, 20 1:05 pm
I have a similar issue. I am on the younger end of my office. I've been out of school and working professionally for over six years and licensed for almost 2 years. I have had clients (of all ages and genders) ask me if I am the intern, where I go to school, when I graduate, if this is my first project, etc. A few contractors have tried to ignore me, and say they would rather speak with my boss (male, late 40s) until they realize I approve their pay apps.
I am a woman, so growing facial hair is out of the question (ha) I dress and speak professionally, but it doesn't seem to matter. The main thing that has helped is focusing on what I gain from working with the good ones (colleagues, bosses, clients, and contractors) that treat me with respect and back me up when the situation requires it. Just hustle harder and don't let them see you sweat.
SneakyPete
Jan 8, 20 1:45 pm
Hustle harder and all you're doing is giving free effort to people who won't appreciate it.
small
Jan 8, 20 6:34 pm
I agree, finding the right people to work with is key. If it means interviewing with tens of potential clients to get one that is open and treats you with respect it goes a long way. In fact, I think those are the only people one should work with. Hustle harder indeed!
thisisnotmyname
Jan 8, 20 1:07 pm
We had an employee in their early 30's who had prematurely gray hair and beard. Judging by the way people reacted to him, the combo of gray hair and good skin and relatively in-shape body is apparently the sweet spot. People really listened to him, even in the company of much older and knowledgeable people from our firm.
Maybe consider dyeing in some gray into your hair.
axonapoplectic
Jan 10, 20 12:48 pm
I’ve thought about this. I am in my 30s and I have friends who are graying. They get way more respect at work than I do. I have the curse of looking 10 years younger than I actually am. It’s great for dating, not so much for my career.
mightyaa
Jan 8, 20 2:46 pm
Yes. I started taking over the family architecture firm when I was 25. Regularly faced it from both clients and project managers. With the PM’s, it wasn’t hard. I grew up in architecture, so I had decades of mentorship under my Dad. They knew my experience and expertise and also knew I had a lot of training they didn’t in their backgrounds (like business stuff, contracts, etc.). Answer question right that they didn’t know, and eventually they’ll respect what you know and no longer just see you as a stupid intern; be honest too if you don’t know btw and don’t bullshit your way through.
With clientele, I cheated. I brought a PM who was ten years my senior. So, initial impressions weren’t a turnoff. Once on board, I could prove myself and earn their trust.
Another ‘trick’. If you look young, they assume ‘cheap’ and unable to negotiate a contract. I know how to negotiate so my fee structure looks cheap, but really isn’t Hint; percent of construction cost for arch only. All consultants are cost plus. Most just hear from their golfing buddies that architects run about 7% but fail to mention those fees normally include consultants. So I’d be 5% and by the time you add consultant fees in back in plus coordination, you sat around 12%. Better yet is if there was zoning; that's hourly and basically would get you through DD before you even tapped your normal services fees; that'd put me in the 15 to 17% fee structure range.
The other ‘trick’ I’d use with my youth was building department waivers or getting them to interpret code my way. Basically, I’d play inexperienced architect and put the reviewer in a ‘mentor’ role. Then just ask the right questions like “what does this ‘exception’ mean?” or “what is the intent of that requirement?”, then lead them to my watering hole where those exceptions or that part of the code just doesn’t fit my design.
One though where I was stuck was in my expert witness litigation support I started taking on in my mid-30’s. One firm pulled me in and told me flat out that while I did indeed have the knowledge and experience as well as concise accurate opinions and reports… A jury would judge my youth against the grey hair opposing expert and just believe the other guy more. They told me they’d be happy to use me once I get grey hair and look the part. Shit happens. I still managed to keep them on for smaller cases.
joseffischer
Jan 8, 20 6:49 pm
Hah, I'm about on the sunset period for that AHJ trick... it was a good run for a decade.
Wood Guy
Jan 8, 20 7:47 pm
Ha, I used that trick too. Now I'm older than many of the AHJs and once they realize I understand the energy parts of the code better than they do they end up grilling me. No joke.
I've been working in architecture for about 12 years and have been practicing on my own for the last 2 years. For better or worse, I look young (i.e. recent graduate) and in walkthroughs with potential clients I get the feeling that they don't want to work with me because I look so young even though I am qualified. Usually, they are older than me, and in fact, many have commented directly to my face "you look so young!". Afterwards, I end up never hearing from them again which makes me think they don't think I can get the job done because of how young I look.
I'm curious if any of you have faced a similar issue when starting your practice and how did you deal with it?
I like to think I carry myself professionally and come prepared for interviews, but it's a bummer when potential clients can't see past the visuals...
Omg. Is this really where our society is at?
I don't have my own practice, and I suppose it shouldn't be an issue if you have built up a decent portfolio.
But I also look young partly due to the curse and blessing of my asian genetics. Once I had a site super call me a kid during a site meeting. I had to tell him, Ok boomer, don't ever call me a kid again. He immediately stop talking and I never had a issue with him again afterwards.
I hope you didn't literally say "OK, boomer." The world would be a much better place if caustic memes didn't pierce the veil into real life.
(Not a boomer)
I've had a couple people try to pull "son" on me in meetings / site walks. I just start responding with "old man" and it usually shuts them up.
"OK Boomer" has transcended the meme world because it so efficiently captures everything wrong with that generation. If they are acting like a Boomer, it's OK to call them out on it. (I'm a Gen Xer so I don't really exist anyway.)
Ya, when I hear a boomer complain about 'age discrimination' my eyes tend to glaze over pretty fast.
I'm not arguing against the idea, and while I hate trite shit in general, internet trite shit is worse. Again, I'm not a boomer and really like working with people of all ages.
There is a good chance that you're right; with age comes experience, and for better or worse, potential clients will include their perception of your experience level in their decision making process. Are most of your potential clients older than you? How much older? What is the focus of your practice?
I've found that doing residential design there are some demographics I just don't do well with, and others that I do great with, so I focus more on the potential projects that are more likely to be successful.
It really varies. I'm in my mid-30s and most of my clients are either my age and up. I work in single-family residential and have had more luck getting jobs from people my age or thereabouts. That said, I'm also a minority and I do think that the more successful projects I've worked on have less to do with the clients age and more to do with their willingness to new ideas and experimentation. I get the sense that a lot of people out there still have an outdated view of an architect.
In a separate/prior career, I ran into a similar situation where I was promoted through the ranks quicker than normal. The result was that I occupied a position of seniority while clearly looking quite young compared to those around me.
My solution was to literally grow out my facial hair more deliberately (yep, for real) - and it did work, the results were fairly obvious. Directly less questions to my authority/qualifications. And I really dislike having facial hair...
Ya gotta have a hat, serape, facial hair, and a cheroot. Boots help also. Maybe play the theme from A Fistfull of Dollars in the office. Probably won't need the gun, unless the client is habitually late paying.
My experience is the inverse. I faced age discrimination as an employee or job seeker.
I was a mature student at college and after graduation several people would make unsolicited questions about my age and raise their eyebrows, either at work or during interviews, despite the evident high quality of my portfolio and skills (I was a first class degree graduate).
I don't know if I lost any positions as a result of this, but I made sure that I kept working very hard and disregarded the prejudiced people.
In regards to your experience, I have heard junior architects complaining at times that they are not taken as seriously by contractors, due to their young age.
In some ways, that's why I started working for myself because I could not see myself being promoted or representing the firm as a PM. I've learned so much more working on my own dealing directly with clients, contractors, and consultants that I think even if I don't work on projects with large budgets, I'm still gaining a lot of valuable experience that I otherwise might not have been able to get.
I have a similar issue. I am on the younger end of my office. I've been out of school and working professionally for over six years and licensed for almost 2 years. I have had clients (of all ages and genders) ask me if I am the intern, where I go to school, when I graduate, if this is my first project, etc. A few contractors have tried to ignore me, and say they would rather speak with my boss (male, late 40s) until they realize I approve their pay apps.
I am a woman, so growing facial hair is out of the question (ha) I dress and speak professionally, but it doesn't seem to matter. The main thing that has helped is focusing on what I gain from working with the good ones (colleagues, bosses, clients, and contractors) that treat me with respect and back me up when the situation requires it. Just hustle harder and don't let them see you sweat.
Hustle harder and all you're doing is giving free effort to people who won't appreciate it.
I agree, finding the right people to work with is key. If it means interviewing with tens of potential clients to get one that is open and treats you with respect it goes a long way. In fact, I think those are the only people one should work with. Hustle harder indeed!
We had an employee in their early 30's who had prematurely gray hair and beard. Judging by the way people reacted to him, the combo of gray hair and good skin and relatively in-shape body is apparently the sweet spot. People really listened to him, even in the company of much older and knowledgeable people from our firm.
Maybe consider dyeing in some gray into your hair.
I’ve thought about this. I am in my 30s and I have friends who are graying. They get way more respect at work than I do. I have the curse of looking 10 years younger than I actually am. It’s great for dating, not so much for my career.
Yes. I started taking over the family architecture firm when I was 25. Regularly faced it from both clients and project managers. With the PM’s, it wasn’t hard. I grew up in architecture, so I had decades of mentorship under my Dad. They knew my experience and expertise and also knew I had a lot of training they didn’t in their backgrounds (like business stuff, contracts, etc.). Answer question right that they didn’t know, and eventually they’ll respect what you know and no longer just see you as a stupid intern; be honest too if you don’t know btw and don’t bullshit your way through.
With clientele, I cheated. I brought a PM who was ten years my senior. So, initial impressions weren’t a turnoff. Once on board, I could prove myself and earn their trust.
Another ‘trick’. If you look young, they assume ‘cheap’ and unable to negotiate a contract. I know how to negotiate so my fee structure looks cheap, but really isn’t Hint; percent of construction cost for arch only. All consultants are cost plus. Most just hear from their golfing buddies that architects run about 7% but fail to mention those fees normally include consultants. So I’d be 5% and by the time you add consultant fees in back in plus coordination, you sat around 12%. Better yet is if there was zoning; that's hourly and basically would get you through DD before you even tapped your normal services fees; that'd put me in the 15 to 17% fee structure range.
The other ‘trick’ I’d use with my youth was building department waivers or getting them to interpret code my way. Basically, I’d play inexperienced architect and put the reviewer in a ‘mentor’ role. Then just ask the right questions like “what does this ‘exception’ mean?” or “what is the intent of that requirement?”, then lead them to my watering hole where those exceptions or that part of the code just doesn’t fit my design.
One though where I was stuck was in my expert witness litigation support I started taking on in my mid-30’s. One firm pulled me in and told me flat out that while I did indeed have the knowledge and experience as well as concise accurate opinions and reports… A jury would judge my youth against the grey hair opposing expert and just believe the other guy more. They told me they’d be happy to use me once I get grey hair and look the part. Shit happens. I still managed to keep them on for smaller cases.
Hah, I'm about on the sunset period for that AHJ trick... it was a good run for a decade.
Ha, I used that trick too. Now I'm older than many of the AHJs and once they realize I understand the energy parts of the code better than they do they end up grilling me. No joke.
I’m guilty of this as well